BajaNomad - Happy Hanukkah to all Nomads

Happy Hanukkah to all Nomads

DianaT - 12-11-2009 at 08:51 PM

Tonight is the first night of Hanukkah, or the Festival of Lights. With blessings spoken, the first candle will be lighted. While Hanukkah has war time historical roots, it has also become a symbol of survival.

Now, while there is no golf development involved, this does have much to do with Baja and Mexico. The first Jews arrived in Mexico with Cortez and more followed to escape the Spanish Inquisition. When the Inquisition grew in what is now Mexico, many migrated north and they were among the first cowboys. Some historians ascribe the cowboy characteristic of allusiveness and silence to these Jewish cowboys and their fear of discovery.

And many Jews migrated to the Tijuana area in the 1940s to escape the Holocaust---many were ones refused entry into the USA.

So to all who are of the Jewish faith or whose religion has its beginnings and foundations in the Jewish tradition, and for those who believe positive messages are found in all religious traditions, may the days of Hanukkah bring you peace and thankfulness for your survival.

Shalom

Thanks Dianna

Dave - 12-11-2009 at 09:19 PM

Chag Sameach

Think I'll go play dreidel.

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/1702443/5701289

Howard - 12-11-2009 at 09:26 PM

Shalom

Are there Jewish temples in Northern Baja or Baja for that matter?

fishbuck - 12-11-2009 at 09:32 PM

The Orindain family who own San Quintin Realestate escaped the inquisition from Europe to Mexico. They were Jews but are now Catholic.
My impression of the story was that the inquisition eventually made it's way to Mexico too.
Some converted to avoid the alternative.
Might explain why you don't see many temples.

Dave - 12-11-2009 at 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Howard
Shalom

Are there Jewish temples in Northern Baja or Baja for that matter?

There's both a Reconstructionist/Conservative and an Orthodox Synagogue in Tijuana. I understand that there is a Jewish fellowship or chavurah located somewhere in or near Rosarito but have never determined where or if so.

To my knowledge there are no Reform Temples in Baja.

There may be a congregation in Southern Baja. Others here might know.

DianaT - 12-11-2009 at 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Chag Sameach

Think I'll go play dreidel.

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/1702443/5701289

I love South Park and that one was really cute! Thanks

Here's some info....

Dave - 12-11-2009 at 09:51 PM

About the Conservative congregation in TJ:

http://www.jewishsightseeing.com/mexico/tijuana/19981023-tij...

And the Orthodox Synagogue:

http://www.jewishsightseeing.com/mexico/tijuana/19981016-tij...

[Edited on 12-12-2009 by Dave]

Woooosh - 12-11-2009 at 09:58 PM

I burned a bagel today... can that count as lighting a candle?

monoloco - 12-11-2009 at 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck
The Orindain family who own San Quintin Realestate escaped the inquisition from Europe to Mexico. They were Jews but are now Catholic.
My impression of the story was that the inquisition eventually made it's way to Mexico too.
Some converted to avoid the alternative.
Might explain why you don't see many temples.

I've been in many Baja motels where the beds were relics of the inquisition.

A little point to ponder

arrowhead - 12-11-2009 at 10:53 PM

Hanukkah was a minor holiday until recent decades when its proximity to Christmas and the gift-giving season had it gain importance for Jews living in mainly Christian countries. It celebrates the victory of a revolt by the Maccabees over Greek-Syrians. In 167 B.C.E. the Syrian-Greek emperor Antiochus made the observance of Judaism an offense punishable by death. He also ordered all Jews to worship Greek gods. Anticochus took over the Temple in Jerusalem, dedicated it to the god Zeus, and had pigs slaughtered in it to defile it to the Jews.

The point to ponder is that if the Greeks had prevailed, Judiasm would have disappeared from the planet. That also means there would also have been no Jesus, no Christianity and probably no monotheism.

DianaT - 12-11-2009 at 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead

The point to ponder is that if the Greeks had prevailed, Judiasm would have disappeared from the planet. That also means there would also have been no Jesus, no Christianity and probably no monotheism.

Zoroastrianism could be in the running for one of the first monotheistic religions and it predates that time.

While in the past, I have enjoyed counterfactual history as an academic pursuit, it really IMHO only sheds light on the old idea of history and culture belong to the victors. It was fun to write a defense of Jezebel and a what if about Hannibal and several more and is a fun way to study some history.

And yes while Hanukkah did have the war history, and was not always an important holiday, I find real meaning in its celebration of survival and dedication to beliefs.

For me, there are good things in many, many religious traditions from which I draw my personal spirituality, and I am always seeking more.

So as Dave said, Chag Sameach

oldlady - 12-12-2009 at 06:21 AM

Me too.
I used to have mixed feelings about Jewish holdiays. When I worked in NYC my favorite small deli wold close for much of Hanukkah (Why not Chanukkah?) and, of course, through all the High Holy Days, and I was forced to fast without my daily pastrami or brisket on rye. I felt privileged to be invited to many family celebrations. Diana, you bring back memories I cherish.

And, I've found no real brisket, pastrami, or good rye in La Paz (sigh).

Shalom.

Ken Bondy - 12-12-2009 at 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead
The point to ponder is that if the Greeks had prevailed, Judiasm would have disappeared from the planet. That also means there would also have been no Jesus, no Christianity and probably no monotheism.

And today people would be killing each other based on their belief in Zeus and Apollo!

oldlady - 12-12-2009 at 07:14 AM

I think it's Jupiter instead of Apollo???
I remember Apollo as the Global Warming dude.

[Edited on 12-12-2009 by oldlady]

Ken Bondy - 12-12-2009 at 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
I think it's Jupiter instead of Apollo???
I remember Apollo as the Global Warming dude.

oldlady
I think you made my point :light:

Thanks!

capt. mike - 12-12-2009 at 08:14 AM

as an ordained minister of Rev Ewing's Church by Mail ($29.95 - email me for info) i wish all faiths here a happy seasonal tribute to your Central Scrutinizers, and a safe and merrimental new year.

L. Ron Hoover

Ken Bondy - 12-12-2009 at 08:42 AM

Thanks mike, er, uh....Ron.

I did a little research oldlady. Actually Apollo was the God of music, medicine, health, prophecies, poetry, and archery. Also said to be the god of light and truth. He is also associated with the sun. Also referred to as the most handsome of the gods. He is Artemis's twin brother, and son of Zeus. His symbols are the bow, lyre, and laurel. Zeus, of course, is the king of Gods.

So if the Greeks had prevailed, some contemporary religious group faithful to Apollo would undoubtedly be killing those infidels who believe in the old man, Zeus, claiming some type of imagined fantasy.

DianaT - 12-12-2009 at 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

So if the Greeks had prevailed, some contemporary religious group faithful to Apollo would undoubtedly be killing those infidels who believe in the old man, Zeus, claiming some type of imagined fantasy.

Ken,
Your point is well taken---and very much understood. While I believe that there are good and positive things in so many religious traditions, all wars, genocide, etc. have been in the name of a god.

But one of my favorite Unitarian ministers once said, the worst legacy left by alll the great spiritual leaders through out time are followers.

It has been the followers who became zealots and have twisted the great teachings into hate and violence.

Old lady, I debated about which spelling to use. And the last good pastrami I had was many years ago at a local Hot Dog stand in the town where I grew up in California. The family from from New York, and so was his pastrami.

So, on this second day of this celebration of survival, I shall light a candle in the name of peace and survival----my personal way of honoring the positive from this religious tradition.

Shalom

Dave - 12-12-2009 at 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead
if the Greeks had prevailed, Judiasm would have disappeared from the planet. That also means there would also have been no Jesus, no Christianity and probably no monotheism.

Roses are red
Violets are blueish
If it wasn't for Jesus
We'd all be Jewish

Well, almost. I'm sure the apostle Paul and Muhammad would argue the point.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda. Over the past two thousand years, Judaism has survived everything thrown against it. I doubt that a Greek victory would have made much difference. Remember, soon after the Greeks came the Romans.

I would also argue that VE day should be the most important Jewish holiday. :rolleyes:

[Edited on 12-12-2009 by Dave]

CaboMagic - 12-12-2009 at 09:29 AM

Thank you Diane for a lovely post, serving to jar my memory as a reminder of the meaning of the tradition of celebration of this holiday ...

Happy Hanukkah - Happy Chanukah

Ken Bondy - 12-12-2009 at 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
Ken,
Your point is well taken---and very much understood. While I believe that there are good and positive things in so many religious traditions, all wars, genocide, etc. have been in the name of a god.

I think we are reasonably on the same page Diane, as usual. There is no doubt that some religious traditions result in good and positive things. But in my opinion they come with a terrible price. Most of the great atrocities in the history of the world have been based upon religion (the Inquisition, the Crusades, burning witches, and need I mention September 11, 2001?). I can't remember who said this originally (it wasn't me) but I think it is right on point - good people will do good things regardless of religion, and bad people will do bad things regardless of religion, but it takes religion to make good people do bad things.

It's all marketing

Dave - 12-12-2009 at 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
all wars, genocide, etc. have been in the name of a god.

An easy sell when most of the participants are believers.

Most wars are fought over territory/resources not religious differences.

But having your God on your side is a good way to motivate the troops.

Ken Bondy - 12-12-2009 at 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Most wars are fought over territory/resources not religious differences.

What territory was involved in the 9/11 attack?

oldlady - 12-12-2009 at 10:45 AM

Israel....but, some have been relgious based and some have not. Split the difference, my friends and let's light the next candle on the Menorah in peace and friendship. It's that time of year for all of us.

Dave - 12-12-2009 at 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

What territory was involved in the 9/11 attack?

While I don't doubt that religion was the prime motivator behind the actions of 9/11 to suggest that this is primarily a religious war is short sighted. Every few months, Muslims kill more Muslims than were slaughtered on 9/11.

Western hegemony was/is the main culprit.

Not that that's a bad thing.

Ken Bondy - 12-12-2009 at 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Every few months, Muslims kill more Muslims than were slaughtered on 9/11.

I thought that was primarily based upon minor misinterpretations of Mohammadian quotes in the Quoran (as in the Sunni/Shia violence), and not primarily based upon territory or other rationally-based disagreements.

DianaT - 12-12-2009 at 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
Israel....but, some have been relgious based and some have not. Split the difference, my friends and let's light the next candle on the Menorah in peace and friendship. It's that time of year for all of us.

The topic of religion as an evil tool, or not would make for an interesting debate IF there was a positive off-topic forum, but not in the current one. I hope not to see this thread dumped into the sewer.

So thank you oldlady for bringing this back around to the original intent----and may you all light the second candle today for peace and the other positive teachings.

Shalom

Pompano - 12-12-2009 at 11:13 AM

"Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just."

....one of the Signers.

Happy Hannukah

Shalom. Peace for sure, but so much more...

[Edited on 12-12-2009 by Pompano]

OK, back on topic

Dave - 12-12-2009 at 11:17 AM

Last night was the first night of Hanukkah.

So...

How many candles were lit?

(Careful, it's a trick question.)

Ken Bondy - 12-12-2009 at 11:18 AM

Diane you are absolutely right. I take the bait too easily on religion and I shouldn't have contributed to the hijacking of your well-meaning thread. I'm gonna go light a candle, if I can find one. If I can't, I know where there are some Fuente Hemingways

Hey...whatever works

Dave - 12-12-2009 at 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Every few months, Muslims kill more Muslims than were slaughtered on 9/11.

I'm not complaining. :rolleyes:

DianaT - 12-12-2009 at 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Last night was the first night of Hanukkah.

So...

How many candles were lit?

(Careful, it's a trick question.)

That is a good trick question---- :biggrin:

Ken,
I enjoyed and will continue to enjoy our u2u conversation about this----like others, I wish there was a positive off-topic forum.

Now with good thoughts, enjoy whatever you light up.

Diane

[Edited on 12-12-2009 by DianaT]

oldlady - 12-12-2009 at 11:23 AM

2, but as I recall only one "counts" ?

[Edited on 12-12-2009 by oldlady]

Nope

Dave - 12-12-2009 at 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
2

No, they both 'count'

Dave - 12-12-2009 at 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
2, but as I recall only one "counts" ?

[Edited on 12-12-2009 by oldlady]

But it still ain't 2.

oldlady - 12-12-2009 at 11:34 AM

It isn't easy being goy.....

It's not to late...

Dave - 12-12-2009 at 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
It isn't easy being goy.....

Get this right, no fair peeking, and I'll make you kosher.

It's the least I can do... After eating all those Pastrami sandwiches.

oldlady - 12-12-2009 at 11:59 AM

I'm not a google cheater. Got to interupt this by saying some of the best pastries I've ever eaten in my life were at a Kosher Chinese restaurant.
Kosher is good, but a whole lot of effort.
I know the middle candle is used to light the other 8. If last night was the first night I assumed first candle. Since that didn't seem to work, the first candle must be light at the end of the first day and therefor no candles would have been lit last night?

How many months do I have to wait for chopped liver and matzos?

arrowhead - 12-12-2009 at 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Get this right, no fair peeking, and I'll make you kosher.

Actually, there is no one answer. But, the answer I think you are looking for is three.

1. The Sabbath candle (last night was Shabbat).
2. The Shamash, and
3. The first Hannukah candle.

The reason I say there is no one answer is that Talmud has three methods for lighting the Hannukah candles: one the first night, two the second night, etc. (the most common prcatice) or,

all eight each night, or

some each night.

OK, I know that is more information than anybody really needs.

oldlady - 12-12-2009 at 12:12 PM

Oy Vey! I can't do Talmudic debate!!!!! I forgot about Shabbat.
But now that I am old and retired I rarely know what day of the week it is anyway!

arrowhead - 12-12-2009 at 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
Oy Vey! I can't do Talmudic debate!!!!! I forgot about Shabbat.
But now that I am old and retired I rarely know what day of the week it is anyway!

Zei gezundt.

[Edited on 12-12-2009 by arrowhead]

OK, Mr Schmarty Pants

Dave - 12-12-2009 at 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead

Talmud has three methods for lighting the Hannukah candles: one the first night, two the second night, etc. (the most common prcatice) o

Lets say we choose the most common practice of lighting the Menorah.

And the woman of the house is married but has no children.

What would the answer be?

Still On Topic, But With a Little Tack

Gypsy Jan - 12-12-2009 at 12:36 PM

There is a gentleman we have seen around Rosarito for years and we encountered him last week in TJ.

He has a full beard, wears a hat and a prayer shawl around his waist.

I have speculated about how hard it must be to keep kosher, but now that I know that there is an orthodox temple in Tijuana (Thanks, Dave!) that explains one thing.

Now a question, based on his way of dressing, is he just Orthodox or is he Hasidic? Or is not possible to make an assumption based on outward observation?

No Talmudic debate here, I am woefully unprepared.

lingililingili - 12-12-2009 at 12:43 PM

Happy Hannukah !

Dave - 12-12-2009 at 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
Now a question, based on his way of dressing, is he just Orthodox or is he Hasidic? Or is not possible to make an assumption based on outward observation?

Hasidic.

Short with a red beard? If so probably Rabbi Polichenco from the Orthodox Synagogue in TJ. Originally from Argentina...go figure. :rolleyes:

BTW, Rabbi Carlos Salas, (the other TJ Rabbi) is building a rabbinical academy in Rosarito.

Also, keeping kosher is really not that difficult. For instance all vegans keep kosher...whether they know it or not.

[Edited on 12-12-2009 by Dave]

oldlady - 12-12-2009 at 01:00 PM

Just a minute....I'm still haning in here on the candles.

A Rabbincal Seminary in Rosarito?

Gypsy Jan - 12-12-2009 at 01:05 PM

Wow and double yay.

This is the kind of positive news that deserves to be widely reported.

I am sure the seminarians will be a tremendous asset to the community.

DENNIS - 12-12-2009 at 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
I am sure the seminarians will be a tremendous asset to the community.

The Carnitas stands must be all abuzz. :lol:

One for the 'Heeb Hoppers'

Dave - 12-12-2009 at 02:27 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3ubVzb1ZMg&feature=fvw

And, 'Hanukkah in Santa Monica'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZUgr1zh878&feature=relat...

Bajahowodd - 12-12-2009 at 04:18 PM

I just got here. As someone who grew up in New York, this has to be among the most interesting threads ever posted here. Thanks to Diane for starting it.

It got me to thinking about present day. If I am correct, it is currently year 5769 of the Jewish Calendar. Making an analogy to the Mayan calendar and all the end-timers looking for 2012, the Jews expected that life, as we know it, would last 6000 years. That may put a damper on those end-timers lacking patience. Because according to the Jews, we'll be around until at least 2240.

Of course. life, as we know it, is subject to interpretation. In my lifetime, Obama being elected president may just fill the bill. Shalom!

Dave - Red Beard and Short?

Gypsy Jan - 12-12-2009 at 04:43 PM

I really don't visualize people in those terms. Yes, he was shorter than me, but I am taller than most. His beard, in the light we were in looked blackish-brownish, mixed with grey and maybe red. (Hey, that describes my hair, also!)

arrowhead - 12-12-2009 at 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead

Talmud has three methods for lighting the Hannukah candles: one the first night, two the second night, etc. (the most common prcatice) o

Lets say we choose the most common practice of lighting the Menorah.

And the woman of the house is married but has no children.

What would the answer be?

Four. Two Shabbat candles and two for Hannukah. Technically speaking, because it was Shabbat, all the candles had to be lit no less than 18 minutes before sunset, so they would be lit during the day. On nights other than Shabbat, the Hannukah candles can be lit at nighttime, usually when all the family is gathered.

For the people who really want to know this minutia, a single woman lights one Sabbath candle, a married woman lights two candles and one for each child. Don't ask me about the 18-minute before sunset rule, it has something to do with a bunch of rabbi's getting together and making a rule after clocks were invented.

Sheesh, Arrowhead

Gypsy Jan - 12-12-2009 at 05:16 PM

I was just going to publish a few lol faces to respond to Dennis' joke about the carnitas vendors.

Thanks for the relevant cultural, religious information about this very special time of year.

GJ

Happy Hanukkah

tripledigitken - 12-12-2009 at 06:12 PM

Judenfriedhof Heiliger Sand (Holy Sand Jewish Cemetery)

We visited this atmospheric Jewish Cemetery this September in Worms, Germany. Some 2,000 tombstones dating back to 1076AD.

Prayer Notes

More stuff you really need to know

Dave - 12-12-2009 at 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead
Don't ask me about the 18-minute before sunset rule, it has something to do with a bunch of rabbi's getting together and making a rule after clocks were invented.

Actually, the 18 minute rule was backed into an ancient formula devised long before (western) clocks were invented.

4 minutes is the time it takes for the sun to travel 1 degree of arc.

The average width of a human hand, fingers extended thumb folded, is 4 degrees. One finger equals 1 degree.

The sun is .5 degree in width which translates into two minutes.

At arms length when top of your index finger touches the bottom of the sun and bottom of your pinky finger touches the horizon it's candle lighting time. Which also happens to be 18 minutes until sunset.

Howard - 12-12-2009 at 07:23 PM

Dave

Would that be the same for left handed people?

Are you sure that you are correct, because if so, if I ever get on Jeopardy or Who Wants To Be A Millionaire I would like to use that if needed.

If you say so, it's good for me!

Peace out and Shalom

oldlady - 12-13-2009 at 08:26 AM

Just get his phone number and use him as a life line.

If I am learning this correctly. Shalom, on this third day of Hannukah. And, last night, a confused gentile lit 3 candles.

(Do I get my brisket sandwich now?) :biggrin:

DianaT - 12-13-2009 at 08:58 AM

Happy Third Day of the Festival of Lights.

I am learning a lot---a good thing.

1. I do not have to worry about 2012 anymore

2. The numbers 7, 8, 9 and 10 are the same in Hebrew as they are in Spanish and Hanukkah is best spent in Santa Monica (those u-tubes are priceless)

3. There is a very complicated way to determine when 18 minutes before sunset happens-- will take advice to use use Dave as a lifeline on that one.

4. Lighting candles is not a simple endeavor

5. There is a real need for real New York Kosher Pastrami in BCS.

So, while I may be a little confused and mess the ceremony up badly, I shall light, I think, four candles tonight with hopes for peace, survival and in the spirit of universal understanding.

And, Ken, those are great photos. Thank you for posting them here.

Shalom

[Edited on 12-13-2009 by DianaT]

Bajahowodd - 12-13-2009 at 01:33 PM

"5. There is a real need for real New York Kosher Pastrami in BCS."

There's a need for that almost everywhere but New York! By and large, if you don't live in or near NY, Chicago, or LA, you're SOL. But even in LA, there's probably on three or four Delis that serve authentic Jewish deli food.

As for BCS, although I've never eaten there, I'm told that Sr. Greenberg's in Cabo isn't bad.

[Edited on 12-13-2009 by Bajahowodd]

oldlady - 12-13-2009 at 01:42 PM

And.... I didn't even mention the pickles on the side.

Sharksbaja - 12-13-2009 at 03:07 PM

"this has to be among the most interesting threads ever posted here"

Well, maybe if you are a Jew.

Dave = yiddisher kop

Shalom, peace, paz

Being Culturally Sensitive for Chanukah

MrBillM - 12-13-2009 at 03:50 PM

Although I had Ham and Eggs for Breakfast, I went out today and bought some Hebrew National Franks for Dinner.

I'll light a few candles at dinner to the Virgin Mary.

No, wait. That's different bunch, right ? Hard to keep this Deity ceremonial stuff straight.

Anyway, have a Great Time and don't forget Kwanza.

Shalom and Shazam.

Dear MrBillM

Gypsy Jan - 12-13-2009 at 04:34 PM

Happy Hanukakuhistmas to you. :yes:

Seasonally yours, GJ

[Edited on 12-13-2009 by Gypsy Jan]

Howard - 12-13-2009 at 04:41 PM

We are celebrating Festivus tonight. We will have a pole to pay our respects to. Anyone else out there celebrate this holiday?

Frank Costanza: "Many Christmases ago, I went to buy a doll for my son. I reached for the last one they had, but so did another man. As I rained blows upon him, I realized there had to be another way."

Cosmo Kramer: "What happened to the doll?"

Frank Costanza: "It was destroyed. But out of that a new holiday was born: a Festivus for the rest of us!"

Kramer: "That must have been some doll."

Frank Costanza: "She was."[6]

BajaGringo - 12-13-2009 at 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Short with a red beard? If so probably Rabbi Polichenco from the Orthodox Synagogue in TJ. Originally from Argentina...go figure. :rolleyes:

Not that hard to believe - Argentina at one point in time had the world's third largest Jewish population. Many left during the hard economic times in the 1990's. Many who couldn't immigrate to the US settled in Mexico. Rabbi Polichenco may be one...