BajaNomad

Why can't Americans learn Spanish?

surebought - 12-15-2009 at 10:09 AM

Every street kid in Ensenada can at least make himself understood in English, why can't most of us get past buenos dias? For once, I don't have a ready answer about a subject. My more synical self thinks it has more to do with it not being so easy to fake your way through language class in high school in the U.S., as it with Math, English or Physics. With language you know the material or you make a fool out of yourself because of all the verbal exercises. So that eliminates most males right there. The 17 year old Mexican soldiers with Machine Guns that I hear a lot about on this board always address me as jefe. Then they ask what I dedicate myself to. They don't ask where I work or what my profession is. They are asking what I apply myself to. They do this because in Mexico its like Cada Quien con su Ramo. Americans if they are from the empressarial Class are always juggling 25 different business deals at the same time. In Mexico no one would take you serously if you operated like that. Its too hard here to be successful because life is a lot more complicated here than in the old country. I think that is the key here. It takes real dedication to learn a language effectively. But you know there is nothing more valuable than a language skill. It's one thing that you can't go to Walmart and buy and take home in plastic bag. You can only acquire this value through hard work and dedication. And I suspect that dedication has become a lost art up in gringolandia. Life is too easy. So I don't know why Americans cannot learn even spanglish(I am spelling it wrong for a reason), but I would like to know because I find it embarasing sometimes when a Mexican asks me, "How did you guys ever win World War Two.

wessongroup - 12-15-2009 at 10:16 AM

Just plain luck and a lot of folks that just "went over the top" so to speak...

vandenberg - 12-15-2009 at 10:18 AM

Sure glad you joined the forum.
And to think that all these years we have been missing out on your wisdom.:P:biggrin:

Don Alley - 12-15-2009 at 10:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by surebought
...I find it embarasing sometimes when a Mexican asks me, "How did you guys ever win World War Two.


Well, we practiced before, by beating Spain and Mexico.:rolleyes:

wessongroup - 12-15-2009 at 10:34 AM

yes, things just get better don't they.. no matter what one does

LancairDriver - 12-15-2009 at 10:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by vandenberg
Sure glad you joined the forum.
And to think that all these years we have been missing out on your wisdom.:P:biggrin:


Predictable response from one who needs it the most. At least seems to recognize it.

IT IS refreshing to have new input with something besides sarcasm and cynicism. Your posts have been informative surebought.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-15-2009 at 10:44 AM

Surebought:
Americans do learn Spanish!
It just looks as if you have been contained in the Border area where people around you do not care or want to learn Spanish.

Now here is a Lesson:
In my humble opnion the best place to learn Spanish is before you go to Mesico, Go to work in the fields of the Central valley or somewhere around Mexicanos. Learn their Spanish, SLANG, that is.
Take a couple of Classes in beginners Spanosh then head to Baja.

Now when you get there you will find that the folks in the Mountains speak a different way than folks on the Waters Edge.

They will not understand a word of "Castillo Spanish" so you have to Practice with them, getting their particular way of saying a certain word or Phrase!

You must also remember that a great number of the older Mexicanos did not get over a 2nd grade Education.

Take it easy and don't worry about the other folks they can take care of themselves with out you jumping all over them for not doing what you think is Right!!

Skeet

BajaGringo - 12-15-2009 at 10:46 AM

They can learn Spanish. Most gringos down here probably want to but they seem stop once they learn how to spell Pacifico...

wessongroup - 12-15-2009 at 10:47 AM

On point Skeet:):)

arrowhead - 12-15-2009 at 10:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by surebought
The 17 year old Mexican soldiers with Machine Guns that I hear a lot about on this board always address me as jefe. Then they ask what I dedicate myself to. They don't ask where I work or what my profession is....

, but I would like to know because I find it embarrassing sometimes when a Mexican asks me, "How did you guys ever win World War Two.


Well, let me embarrass you even more. You are misunderstanding Spanish. The common question you are asked by the soldiers is, "y a que te dedicas?" It is how you ask, "What do you do for a living?" in Spanish. They are not asking you to what you dedicated your life. And the next time a Mexican asks you how we ever won WWII you should ask them how the Mexican Space Program is coming along, or when they think they will have a particle collider for sub-atomic research.

Kindly do me a favor, and never apologize to a Mexican for the United States again. Mexico is already full of America-hating Americans. It is how they rationalize their life's failures while they wait for their liver to bust from alcoholism or to cough up their lungs from the 3 daily packs of cigarettes they smoke.

Now I'll turn this over to BajaGabacho to tell me I don't know WTF "y a que te dedicas?" means.

BajaGringo - 12-15-2009 at 11:28 AM

Nancy, Nancy, Nancy...

You are such a pleasant one in the morning, aren't you?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

DENNIS - 12-15-2009 at 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Kindly do me a favor, and never apologize to a Mexican for the United States again. Mexico is already full of America-hating Americans.


I whole-heartedly second that.

monoloco - 12-15-2009 at 11:34 AM

I think that the reason that most Americans aren't more fluent in Spanish is because they tend to cluster with their own kind and avoid unnecessary contact with the locals. It is unfortunate.

DENNIS - 12-15-2009 at 11:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
I think that the reason that most Americans aren't more fluent in Spanish is because they tend to cluster with their own kind and avoid unnecessary contact with the locals. It is unfortunate.



Very true.
Another reason might be that it's much more difficult for older folks, most of the expats here, to sponge up a new language as the youngsters can and do. We don't change as readily as we did fifty years ago.

ELINVESTIG8R - 12-15-2009 at 11:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by surebought...I find it embarasing sometimes when a Mexican asks me, "How did you guys ever win World War Two.


When they ask you that you tell them "Porque Los Estados Unidos De América es un país Chingón y saben como hacer guerra cuando es necesario de hacerlo. Say it with pride too.

P.S. I am a Gabacho who lived in Mexico from the age of five years old until I was sixteen years old. It was almost total immersion. I had to speak it to survive.

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by ELINVESTI8]

oldlady - 12-15-2009 at 11:43 AM

I know very nice and intelligent Mexican people in the US who've been there 20 years. They, like thousands of others, speak little or no English, which is why everything is printed in multiple languauges. We are all motivated to learn another language if we see it is to our best interest to do so. As the man said, everyone knows "cerveza". For some, especially auditory learners, it is easier to learn a new language than for others.

BajaGringo - 12-15-2009 at 11:43 AM

Sure you can Dennis - I think too many have just decided that you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Motivation obviously plays a major role...

Winning the War

MrBillM - 12-15-2009 at 12:06 PM

The next time a Mexican asks "How did you Americans" win WWII ?

Just say that those "Germans" and "Japanese" were tough, but If we'd been fighting Mexico, it would have been over in a few weeks. Or days.

As far as this Language "Nonsense" goes, SO WHAT ? I'm not in Mexico to do missionary work. I'm there for MY benefit and I can communicate at whatever level necessary for MY concerns.

BajaGringo - 12-15-2009 at 12:23 PM

There is no need to apologize for the good ol' USA. No country is perfect but there is a lot of history there to be proud of and why I voluntarily served in the armed services.

However sometimes I do feel compelled to apologize for some of the marooons who come from the same country where I was born.

There is a very big difference...

MitchMan - 12-15-2009 at 12:49 PM

Mr Bill, You've just defined the "ugly American".

tripledigitken - 12-15-2009 at 12:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Kindly do me a favor, and never apologize to a Mexican for the United States again. Mexico is already full of America-hating Americans.


I whole-heartedly second that.


I second your second.

Alzheimer's Prevention

Gypsy Jan - 12-15-2009 at 01:00 PM

Learning anything new, but especially another language (code switching), is highly recommended as a good exercise to prevent the synapses from from rusting out in our older brains.

Bajahowodd - 12-15-2009 at 01:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by soulpatch
It is generally in our school system that when kids have the most ability for language acquisition we don't take advantage of it. We wait until they are older and their minds are wired a little more permanently so it is not a more natural process.
It is just more backwards thinking about the priorities in traditional education.



You are quite right. In Europe, somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 of the citizens have a basic ability in English. Not to mention that with all the various languages around, there is a high percentage of multi-lingual people. They teach language in the primary grades, when it is so much easier to assimilate the information.The US has been very insular, including the fact that they don't travel to foreign countries that much. Case in point. The last president. If I recall correctly, he had virtually traveled nowhere abroad at the time he was elected. And he came from a wealthy family.

Wingnut - 12-15-2009 at 01:15 PM

Language learning for the USA has always been on a need basis. Most of the USA stays at home in their comfort zones and never ventures forth. How the heck we settled that country is amazing. Used to be that Americans traveled where the will or want tugged at them. Now most stay home and complain about the immigration problems.

I find that the more you socialize with the population where you are, the greater the rewards are in getting to know and understand life as they see it. It requires an open and non-judgemental mind to see life from different angles. As I learn to speak more and more "Spanish" the better I am at understanding people. I too suffered from the American educational system and had an advantage some do not. I grew up with Spanish speaking people, took Spanish in High School and then entered the job market where language skills were not needed. I lost a lot of what little Spanish I spoke and have been re-learning it all over again. I find that the more you learn, the less you know. But I keep trying and those Spanish speaking people I interact with are happy to help. They appreciate the fact that I am learning to communicate with them in their native tongue. So I help them with their English and it works out well for both of us. I suspect that if more people took this approach, we would not have to listen to more Ugly American stories.

Viva la lingua!

Barry A. - 12-15-2009 at 01:16 PM

Some like to travel to foreign Countries, and some don't. My wife and I tried it for several years and found that we felt more rewarded traveling in our own Country, and it's immediate neighbors, and it is sooooooo much less expensive to do so.

I actually had a better opinion of other Countries before I travelled to them, than after, in most cases---------China and Italy being the exceptions. All Countries have their plus'es and minus'es, but bottom line is I like OUR Country best---so much to see right here!!! Possibly Bush felt the same way.

Barry

Bajahowodd - 12-15-2009 at 01:26 PM

Barry- I agree with some of your points. I could make a list of countries I like and those which did not seem worthwhile spending time there. However, in addressing the original premise of this thread, if our kids were more or less required to become proficient in foreign language starting in elementary school, at the age when experts say it is the easiest to master language, is it not just possible that with foreign language skills, there would be more people interested in visiting the countries in which those languages are spoken?

Methinks you give Bush too much credit. Many have branded him with being incurious.

That said, with the ever greater economic globalization of world markets, we need to really think about how we are going to participate in a world that will eventually have many powerful players that we will not be able to ignore. Just because we have the greatest military power, isn't going to cut it.

rts551 - 12-15-2009 at 01:33 PM

Barry
Whats your point here. Most people in other countries feel the same patriotism you do. Doesn't stop them from learning though.


Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Some like to travel to foreign Countries, and some don't. My wife and I tried it for several years and found that we felt more rewarded traveling in our own Country, and it's immediate neighbors, and it is sooooooo much less expensive to do so.

I actually had a better opinion of other Countries before I travelled to them, than after, in most cases---------China and Italy being the exceptions. All Countries have their plus'es and minus'es, but bottom line is I like OUR Country best---so much to see right here!!! Possibly Bush felt the same way.

Barry
:?::?::?::?:

vacaenbaja - 12-15-2009 at 01:36 PM

When taking a begining French class our teacher layed out the rules. (1)Under no circumstances are you to use a dictionary of any kind. This means
that you cannot use any word not learned in class. (2) Under no circumstances will English be spoken during class time. (3) These will be your most often used phrases " What is this called" " How do you say"
etc. She believed in THINKING IN FRENCH not thinking in English and then trying to find a French equivalent. I suppose that this could work for Spanish as well... if we were not so busy trying to translate our thoughts.

'Their own kind'

Dave - 12-15-2009 at 01:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
I think that the reason that most Americans aren't more fluent in Spanish is because they tend to cluster with their own kind and avoid unnecessary contact with the locals. It is unfortunate.


Name a culture that doesn't. Americans aren't unique in their desire to associate with their 'own kind'. For some the avoidance is based on fear. For most it's simply comfort and convenience.

It is the rare individual who chooses otherwise.

Simply put, Americans living here don't learn Spanish unless their survival depends on it. The same can be said for all other cultures dispersed throughout the world.

Cyanide41 - 12-15-2009 at 01:49 PM

surebought... Why can't mexicans learn English? I will agree that people who move to a foreign country should make an attempt to learn the local language, but don't say that this problem is one sided. The US is MUCH more catering to Spanish speakers than Mexico is to English speakers. Don't imply that all Mexicans can speak (some) English. The reason my spanish is what it is, is because Mexicans who CAN NOT speak English. And most of the Mexicans I know live in TJ. I expected almost all Tijuanese to have at least some English, but found that it's not always the case.

Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
I think that the reason that most Americans aren't more fluent in Spanish is because they tend to cluster with their own kind and avoid unnecessary contact with the locals. It is unfortunate.


That happens everywhere. Why do you think there is such a large Irish population in Boston? I used to date a Korean (1st gen American) girl who's mother had been here 25 years or so and still struggled with English. Most of her mom's friend's were Korean. She shopped at the Korean market. So you can't say that American's are the only ones who "stick to their own". In all such cases it is unfortunate.

oldlady - 12-15-2009 at 01:55 PM

Is that a non sequitur or a complete mental collapse?

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by oldlady]

Santiago - 12-15-2009 at 02:05 PM

E.T. I'm with you on that one. I suppose this accounts for the .1%

Barry A. - 12-15-2009 at 02:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Barry- I agree with some of your points. I could make a list of countries I like and those which did not seem worthwhile spending time there. However, in addressing the original premise of this thread, if our kids were more or less required to become proficient in foreign language starting in elementary school, at the age when experts say it is the easiest to master language, is it not just possible that with foreign language skills, there would be more people interested in visiting the countries in which those languages are spoken?

Methinks you give Bush too much credit. Many have branded him with being incurious.

That said, with the ever greater economic globalization of world markets, we need to really think about how we are going to participate in a world that will eventually have many powerful players that we will not be able to ignore. Just because we have the greatest military power, isn't going to cut it.


Agree completely, except the "Bush" reference and it's inference. Some are more "curious" than others, and I don't fault them either way. Contentment with life explains part of it.

As for my "point", I don't necessarily have to go to other Countries to appreciate them, and that probably applies to Bush, also------in fact my investments are about 55% overseas, at this time, and I sure appreciate the profits that gives me, being a good capitolist. I want (almost) all Countries to "succeed" economically, for obvious reasons.

I will admit that my main thrust in my original post was to counter the negative inference about Bush--------his lack of "curiosity" does not bother me-------in fact by all measures that I have seen Bush is a very happy, competant and contented man, and I deeply respect him, mostly for his character. Others disagree, and that is fine, but I like both sides to be posted just so ideas and opinions are not just left hanging out there that many don't agree with.

I agree that most do not take the time to learn another language if they feel it is not "worth it". Given incentive, most would learn.

I especially support the concept of teaching languages at a VERY young age-------and Europe in general, and other Countries, beat us hands down at that. We need to wise up.

Barry

oldlady - 12-15-2009 at 02:24 PM

Appropriate thread on the anniversary of Zamenhof's birth.

Zamenhof...Esperanto.....Google (for the younger crowd).

Barry A. - 12-15-2009 at 02:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
Appropriate thread on the anniversary of Zamenhof's birth.

Zamenhof...Esperanto.....Google (for the younger crowd).


Wow, Impressive!!! I am not "younger", but I must confess I had never heard of him, or his language. That probably puts me in the so-called "Bush league". :lol:

Thanks Old Lady for the Google lead. :spingrin:

Barry

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by Barry A.]

Spelling er, Spanglish Police

Sharksbaja - 12-15-2009 at 02:32 PM

synical, empresarial, serously, embarasing

Yes your English and your Spanish skills do need help! Do you realize how silly you look in regards to your post?:rolleyes:


hint: Spellcheck

ELINVESTIG8R - 12-15-2009 at 02:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
Appropriate thread on the anniversary of Zamenhof's birth.

Zamenhof...Esperanto.....Google (for the younger crowd).


OldLady Who is he? Is he a friend of yours?

Now I’m just embarrassed! I should have Googled first.

Sorry!

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by ELINVESTI8]

gnukid - 12-15-2009 at 02:34 PM

I was at the beach in Barriles yesterday with friends and a woman pulled up to go kitesurfing, she asked "where ya'll from?"

"La paz" I answered.

She looked at us cross-eyed, who are mostly blond, and said "where?"

I said "la paz, it's the next big town up the road. Y'all should visit sometime."

She snapped back angrily, "I know where la paz is, I have lived here for 18 years but I don't speak spanish and I am not going to la paz!" - typical ignorant arrogant North American.

Similarly, with my Mexican friends from various parts of the country, in every pueblo in Baja we visit, when we arrive, the locals always give a blank look when asked for something by other Mexicans-"donde estan las ballenas? "que?", as in total lack of understanding. My friends from Mexico City can not order a glass of milk in many of Baja's pueblos. The locals can not understand most other regional speakers. Many people become frustrated as they speak spanish so why don't other mexican spanish speakers understand?

I try hard to adjust to local dialects having learned in pueblos, loud clubs and in school both here in baja and in the USA-I listen and watch the speakers mouth and make similar movements and sounds, sometimes I use the marble mouth technique - to be better understood which works wonders.

Regional speakers use systematic differences in language in order to define, differentiate and discriminate social groups which would explain why some people refuse to learn Spanish or English or if they do they have unique phrasing and pronunciation. Me puches pues, y'all -which means "the thorns got me", y'all in Salvadorian but in Paceno I am still uncertain what it means but I gather it means, "well, they are bugging me."

I try to listen and repeat back the phrases and nuances using mirroring making similar mouth shape, body position and similar intonation, rhythm - regardless of whether I understand at first, like teenage dating. Some people speak in a slow stuccoto manner, while others use a sing song method, some (Cubanos) use 64th and 128th note syllables and others (Rancheros) 1/4 note syllables.

When I do mirroring right, often this results in near shock as family members think since I speak their exact language, they assume I must be a long lost related family member resulting in a familiar conversation. Only when I ask a particularly unique question, usually of critical importance do they reply, "que? no entiende?"

I do understand why people get a bit tired of this dialectical game but I also think it is funny, I realize it is possible that each of us have a narrow window defined of our local dialect for our own affirmation and sense of community and many have little experience otherwise.

For me is it is rewarding and well worth the effort to try to understand what people are saying and make adjustments for their particular nuances. Most often, after learning to speak spanish better and more flexibly, I have found when I thought someone was laughing at me they were not, they were being nice. Without the effort to learn spanish you are missing out on lots of "understanding," lots of friends and many terrific jokes. Besides there are probably only 100 words you need to know to break the language barrier.

monoloco - 12-15-2009 at 02:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
I think that the reason that most Americans aren't more fluent in Spanish is because they tend to cluster with their own kind and avoid unnecessary contact with the locals. It is unfortunate.



Very true.
Another reason might be that it's much more difficult for older folks, most of the expats here, to sponge up a new language as the youngsters can and do. We don't change as readily as we did fifty years ago.
I read somewhere of a study of language acquisition in children and adults, in the children the language centers were dispersed throughout the brain but in the adults they were centered in one area.

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by monoloco]

Youthful Missed Opportunities

MrBillM - 12-15-2009 at 02:43 PM

I probably "would" have learned Spanish better in my youth since I spent every opportunity in Baja (well, Tijuana), BUT the girls at the Blue Fox and elsewhere communicated well in English. At least, well enough. Only so many words were necessary.

rts551 - 12-15-2009 at 02:48 PM

gnu=

You rival DK in the "I" category.

Pacifico - 12-15-2009 at 03:06 PM

I can't help but think....

What if there was a website called "U.S. Nomad" and there was a thread called "Why can't Mexicans learn English?

There are plenty of Mexicans living in the U.S. that don't know English or even attempt to learn it....

I think that there are people on both sides of the fence (no pun intended) that desire to learn and others that have no desire to learn.

To each his own......By the way, my spanglish is coming along quite nicely!!!

gnukid - 12-15-2009 at 03:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
gnu=

You rival DK in the "I" category.


Ahora Mismo! Compras un boleto de clases de espagnol y ganas!

You too can derive financial benefits from learning foreign languages, you will meet people and make new friends.

Marketing speak more up your alley? Dork.

Osprey - 12-15-2009 at 03:18 PM

Many of the Mexican in my little village use very few words to communicate in Spanish. It's not quite Spanish. Many of them don't read much, haven't been students of their own language -- just didn't have the opportunity or incentive. So why should I hope they would try to learn English? How would they go about that without a basic understanding of Spanish? While I get along fine speaking pueblo with them we don't have many chances to get deeper than that. Meanwhile I go deeper every day into my own language and find much pleasure learning more about it.

Here's to You, oldlady

Gypsy Jan - 12-15-2009 at 03:30 PM

Nice catch. (Or putt or whatever; DO NOT WANT to revisit that can of worms).

"I am profoundly convinced that every nationalism offers humanity only the greatest unhappiness... It is true that the nationalism of oppressed peoples -- as a natural self-defensive reaction -- is much more excusable than the nationalism of peoples who oppress; but, if the nationalism of the strong is ignoble, the nationalism of the weak is imprudent; both give birth to and support each other…”

--Ludovic Lazarus Zamenhof

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by Gypsy Jan]

vandenberg - 12-15-2009 at 03:37 PM

Age has a lot to do with your learning ability, but lots of other factors can come into play. I immigrated at the ripe old age of 25. Had a good English school base, but that's not sufficient to come to a foreign country and start to make a living. But, since it becomes a necessity if you want to succeed, you get with the program.
Now, like I, you come to a foreign country at retirement age, the process becomes of different value. The necessity is not there and it becomes up to you how much you're willing to pour into that worked over mind. Difficult, to say the least.
I speak 2 languages fluently and in my youth used to be also fluent in German. But as a result of non usage, a foreign language is soon forgotten. Never had much problem with germanic languages, but the romanic ones always have sound much like abacadabra to me. At 74, I get by just fine and the old adage "Don't sweat the small stuff" seems very befitting here. And btw, being from Europe, we're used to traveling a few hundred miles and go through 2 to3 different language regions. Nobody has any problems there. Make an a$$ swipe if you want toilet paper.:biggrin:

rts551 - 12-15-2009 at 03:48 PM

Glad yoy signed it "Dork". I was worried there for a minute.

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
gnu=

You rival DK in the "I" category.


Ahora Mismo! Compras un boleto de clases de espagnol y ganas!

You too can derive financial benefits from learning foreign languages, you will meet people and make new friends.

Marketing speak more up your alley? Dork.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-15-2009 at 04:01 PM

My first lanuage has always been "Texan"!
When I was a young lad and it got to be contton picking time at our Farm, my Dad made my brother and i Pick Cotton right along with the mexicano Families that would come up each year for harvest. Learned" P-nche"" right off.

Later when I went into the tool business in the Central Valley of Calif. I could see that there were lots of mexicano Customers so I got my Customers to help me with all of the popular words. They got a big kick out of it.

Then for awhile I had a Bedroom Dictionary. But Whoa!! maybe I had better pass that one by.

I try to encourage all Kids American and Mexicano to learn both lanuages . tEll them it is :Mas Dinero in the Bolsa, Mas Tarde""

Santiago - 12-15-2009 at 04:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
Nice catch. (Or putt or whatever; DO NOT WANT to revisit that can of worms).

"I am profoundly convinced that every nationalism offers humanity only the greatest unhappiness... It is true that the nationalism of oppressed peoples -- as a natural self-defensive reaction -- is much more excusable than the nationalism of peoples who oppress; but, if the nationalism of the strong is ignoble, the nationalism of the weak is imprudent; both give birth to and support each other…”

--Ludovic Lazarus Zamenhof


Oh, that Zamenhof. I had him confused with Rasta Pharin Zamenhof and it just wasn't making any sense. Completely forgot about Lazarus.

SS: you are one frightening lady.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-15-2009 at 04:31 PM

Most of the time when I was first trying my Spanish in Baja, the folks would laugh and Giggle and then help with the correct way to say the word.

They would get a big kick out of it, then would be very embarassed when they could not say the English Word.

Great people!

Yes, That Zamenhof

Gypsy Jan - 12-15-2009 at 04:39 PM

On another note, "You only Scare the Ones You Love." ;)

Bajahowodd - 12-15-2009 at 05:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Most of the time when I was first trying my Spanish in Baja, the folks would laugh and Giggle and then help with the correct way to say the word.

They would get a big kick out of it, then would be very embarassed when they could not say the English Word.

Great people!



Beyond the whole concept of Americans doing something to have their children become better citizens of the world by diligently learning a foreign language, Those of us older folks, who struggle, should take some solace in the idea that even though you don't know how to change from tense to tense, your Mexican friends will appreciate your trying, and offer to help you.

Years ago. Many years ago. I found myself stranded alone, outside of a cantina in Cancun (The city, not the resort). I hailed a cab. The driver spoke few words of English, and I had limited Spanish, that was affected by my fear of sounding stupid. But, the cervesas and shots consumed during the evening blew through my self-consciousness, and we had the most astounding conversation as he was driving me to my hotel. It took many years after that for me to have as rewarding conversation as I did that night.

[Edited on 12-16-2009 by Bajahowodd]

Key Phrasing

MrBillM - 12-15-2009 at 05:42 PM

I was once told that the most important phrase to learn was:

Donde esta las Putas ?

However, that turned out not to be true.

They were never hard to find.

tjBill - 12-15-2009 at 05:45 PM

Contrary to popular belief, children do not learn languages faster. Check the facts,

http://www.language-learning-advisor.com/age-and-language-le...

[Edited on 12-16-2009 by tjBill]

David K - 12-15-2009 at 05:47 PM

Who here thinks we can't really learn... or maybe just doesn't want to...?

I speak some Spanish almost daily, and try to speak as much as I can in Mexico... I would sure like to be fluent, and maybe someday I will be.

Woooosh - 12-15-2009 at 06:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
The next time a Mexican asks "How did you Americans" win WWII ?

Just say that those "Germans" and "Japanese" were tough, but If we'd been fighting Mexico, it would have been over in a few weeks. Or days.


The French and Italians at least had guns to drop when they ran- Mexicans aren't alowed to bear arms and show no enthusiam for becoming civil warriors.

Ken Cooke - 12-15-2009 at 07:08 PM

I speak 98% (Castillian) Spanish at home. Traveling in Baja, it is difficult to get the locals to speak Spanish to an American.

DENNIS - 12-15-2009 at 07:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Traveling in Baja, it is difficult to get the locals to speak Spanish to an American.


:lol::lol::lol:What do they speak, Ken? Chinese?

Mexicorn - 12-15-2009 at 07:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by surebought
The 17 year old Mexican soldiers with Machine Guns that I hear a lot about on this board always address me as jefe. Then they ask what I dedicate myself to. They don't ask where I work or what my profession is....

, but I would like to know because I find it embarrassing sometimes when a Mexican asks me, "How did you guys ever win World War Two.


Well, let me embarrass you even more. You are misunderstanding Spanish. The common question you are asked by the soldiers is, "y a que te dedicas?" It is how you ask, "What do you do for a living?" in Spanish. They are not asking you to what you dedicated your life. And the next time a Mexican asks you how we ever won WWII you should ask them how the Mexican Space Program is coming along, or when they think they will have a particle collider for sub-atomic research.

Kindly do me a favor, and never apologize to a Mexican for the United States again. Mexico is already full of America-hating Americans. It is how they rationalize their life's failures while they wait for their liver to bust from alcoholism or to cough up their lungs from the 3 daily packs of cigarettes they smoke.

Now I'll turn this over to BajaGabacho to tell me I don't know WTF "y a que te dedicas?" means.







Have you been hanging out at the Splash?

oldlady - 12-15-2009 at 07:19 PM

Choked on my egg nog on that one, Dennis.

[Edited on 12-16-2009 by oldlady]

mulegejim - 12-15-2009 at 07:22 PM

Having traveled and lived in Mexico a number of years I most likely should be able to speak Spanish better than I do - that said - almost all the Mexicans I have encountered have been more than happy to put up with my attempt at a combination of Spanish and English. In my opinion, some Americans believe that folks in other countries should speak English - many people do, however, it is not required. Just remember there were/are a lot of first generation German, Italian, Polish, Japanese, Chinese, Mexican and you name it, who did not speak English when first arriving in the USA - many of us are descendents of those folks.

Ken Cooke - 12-15-2009 at 07:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Traveling in Baja, it is difficult to get the locals to speak Spanish to an American.


:lol::lol::lol:What do they speak, Ken? Chinese?


Going to the bank in Guerrero Negro, the Tellers spoke English.

The family members working at "The Tamale Lady" spoke Spanish. Get closer to the Gold Coast, and you encounter mostly English-speakers - which is a good thing, but when you practice Spanish, it doesn't help much.

Spanish Language Etymology (Probably More Than You want to Know)

Gypsy Jan - 12-15-2009 at 07:40 PM

Why is Spanish sometimes referred to as Castilian or castellano?

" An answer to that question requires a brief look at how the Spanish language developed to its current form. What we know as Spanish is primarily a derivative of Latin, which arrived on the Iberian Peninsula (the peninsula that includes Spain and Portugal) around 2,000 years ago. On the peninsula, Latin adopted some of the vocabulary of indigenous languages, becoming Vulgar Latin. The peninsula's variety of Latin became quite well entrenched, and with various changes (including the addition of thousands of Arabic words), it survived well into the second millennium.
For reasons more political than linguistic, the dialect of Vulgar Latin that was common in what is now the north-central portion of Spain, which includes Castile, spread throughout the region. In the 13th century, King Alfonso supported efforts such as the translation of historic documents that helped the dialect, known as Castilian, become the standard for educated use of the language. He also made that dialect the official language for government administration.
As later rulers pushed the Moors out of Spain, they continued to use Castilian as the official tongue. Further strengthening Castilian's use as a language for educated people was Arte de la lengua castellana by Antonio de Nebrija, what might be called the first Spanish-language textbook and one of the first books to systematically define the grammar of a European language.
Although Castilian became the primary language of the area now known as Spain, its use didn't eliminate the other Latin-based languages in the region. Galician (which has similarities to Portuguese) and Catalan (one of the major languages of Europe with similarities to Spanish and French) continue to be used in large numbers today. A non-Latin-based language, Euskara or Basque, is also spoken by a minority.
In a sense, then, these other languages — Galician, Catalan and Euskara — are Spanish languages and even have official status in their regions, so the term Castilian (and more often its Spanish equivalent, castellano) has sometimes been used to differentiate that language from the other languages of Spain.
Today, the term "Castilian" is used in other ways too. Sometimes it is used to distinguish the north-central standard of Spanish from regional variations such as Andalusian (used in southern Spain). Sometimes it is used, not altogether accurately, to distinguish the Spanish of Spain from that of Latin America. And sometimes it is used simply as a synonym for Spanish, especially when referring to the "pure" Spanish promulgated by the Royal Spanish Academy (which itself preferred the term castellano in its dictionaries until the 1920s).
In Spain, a person's choice of terms to refer to the language — castellano or español, sometimes can have political implications. In many parts of Latin America, the Spanish language is known routinely as castellano rather than español."

Pescador - 12-15-2009 at 08:11 PM

There are two basic issues here.
The first is the social issue and what you find in a great part of Baja or other parts of Mexico is that the foreigners all tend to congregate in one are and be around people who talk and think like you do. Some of that is natural from both sides of the fence. The Nativos are somewhat uncomfortable around a group of people who talk and act differently than they are used to and the Norteamericanos are also equally uncomfortable around a group of people who they do not understand and/or completely trust. I find the Norteamericano area of Mulege, Loreto, and Cabo to be dull and predictable. I came to Mexico knowing how the Norteamericanos lived and interacted, but what I did not understand was what went on in the Native communities. I chose to locate in a community where there was a more naturally occuring mixture of Native and nortes where I could interact with both groups which meant I was not looking to adapt to a new culture, but I was able to keep the identity that I had spent years developing and was able to expand, little by little, into an unknown group with their own unique ways and manners. In order to do that it was necessary to get beyond rudimentary spanish in order to effectively communicate more than a beer order or dinner. I don't pretend to have the indepth level of understanding that Shari or Pam Bolles have but I do well within my community and am more understood and accepted all the time. I think that it has to be important enough to anyone to go through all the discomfort which have been well documented by previous posters. I get really tired of hearing the lame excuses of "I am too old, or I don't understand other languages" or whatever, if it is important it will get done, most of the time it just is not that important.
Now the most difficult part: Language does not become truly functional until one can "think" or interact in that language in non-concrete terms. I did my Master's thesis on this very function of language and we found that hispanic students in southern Colorado were exposed to two different languages but did not have the ability to function in terms of abstraction in either one. We named this condition "Dual Language Exposed" which meant that they were missing the the key functions of communication and language in both languages ( Spanish and English) and this seems to be the very issue most people experience with learning Spanish. They may be able to abstractly function in English but they do not stick with the Spanish side long enough to every function there.
So with Sureboughts original question, he learned because he was invested and it was a necessary tool, most are merely exposed and other priorities take precedence.

Learning Spanish

C-Urchin - 12-17-2009 at 01:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
I was at the beach in Barriles yesterday with friends and a woman pulled up to go kitesurfing, she asked "where ya'll from?"

"La paz" I answered.

She looked at us cross-eyed, who are mostly blond, and said "where?"

I said "la paz, it's the next big town up the road. Y'all should visit sometime."

She snapped back angrily, "I know where la paz is, I have lived here for 18 years but I don't speak spanish and I am not going to la paz!" - typical ignorant arrogant North American.

Similarly, with my Mexican friends from various parts of the country, in every pueblo in Baja we visit, when we arrive, the locals always give a blank look when asked for something by other Mexicans-"donde estan las ballenas? "que?", as in total lack of understanding. My friends from Mexico City can not order a glass of milk in many of Baja's pueblos. The locals can not understand most other regional speakers. Many people become frustrated as they speak spanish so why don't other mexican spanish speakers understand?

I try hard to adjust to local dialects having learned in pueblos, loud clubs and in school both here in baja and in the USA-I listen and watch the speakers mouth and make similar movements and sounds, sometimes I use the marble mouth technique - to be better understood which works wonders.

Regional speakers use systematic differences in language in order to define, differentiate and discriminate social groups which would explain why some people refuse to learn Spanish or English or if they do they have unique phrasing and pronunciation. Me puches pues, y'all -which means "the thorns got me", y'all in Salvadorian but in Paceno I am still uncertain what it means but I gather it means, "well, they are bugging me."

I try to listen and repeat back the phrases and nuances using mirroring making similar mouth shape, body position and similar intonation, rhythm - regardless of whether I understand at first, like teenage dating. Some people speak in a slow stuccoto manner, while others use a sing song method, some (Cubanos) use 64th and 128th note syllables and others (Rancheros) 1/4 note syllables.

When I do mirroring right, often this results in near shock as family members think since I speak their exact language, they assume I must be a long lost related family member resulting in a familiar conversation. Only when I ask a particularly unique question, usually of critical importance do they reply, "que? no entiende?"

I do understand why people get a bit tired of this dialectical game but I also think it is funny, I realize it is possible that each of us have a narrow window defined of our local dialect for our own affirmation and sense of community and many have little experience otherwise.

For me is it is rewarding and well worth the effort to try to understand what people are saying and make adjustments for their particular nuances. Most often, after learning to speak spanish better and more flexibly, I have found when I thought someone was laughing at me they were not, they were being nice. Without the effort to learn spanish you are missing out on lots of "understanding," lots of friends and many terrific jokes. Besides there are probably only 100 words you need to know to break the language barrier.





From C-Urchin,

I have never responded to anything so have patience if this is posted wrong...


I was in LA a while ago sitting next to a Bimbo, she was going on and on about "those Mexicans" illegals, bla, bla, bla...we have all heard it. She actually believed that ALL Mexicans who are in the US have jumped the fence or swam to get here, that they are ALL uneducated, they ALL have 8 children etc...And they don't even bother to learn English!!!

I got irritated, could not keep my mouth zipped and reminded her that we were in "Santa Monica" next to "Los Angeles" (actually "El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora Reina de los Angeles de la Porciuncula" where there were Spanish and Mexican families established a long time before her illiterate grandfather got off a ship from Ireland or wherever the heck he was from...

I could tell from the void deep into the eyes that she had no idea. Welcome to LAUSD. Don't get me started...

I speak read and write 4 languages, all learned with great effort at different times in my life. All the pain was worth it. All of it. I would do it again over and over SO much it is worth it to deeply understand another culture.

So, what is the problem? It is my understanding that to appreciate language and wanting to give it all that is needed to learn properly (forget dialects, start with the official mainstream/grammatically accepted/neutral as possible/language) one has to have some base knowledge of history and geography. Curiosity and appreciation of other cultures. NOT just need to communicate just the basics. Just the basics holds you back as it holds back immigrants in the US.

Same problem, lack of education and hermetic communities where all interaction with others is in the native language.

I think that if you choose to move to another country you owe your new countrymen the respect of having studied their culture and have learned their official language properly so that you can speak, read and write it at least to high school level. You also owe it to yourself.

It is a wonderful adventure.

shari - 12-17-2009 at 09:48 AM

Having lived here around 20 years, married to a mexican and have a mexican daughter has put me in the unique position of acting as a bridge between the cultures. I did not speak a word of spanish when I arrived but certainly enjoyed the adventure of learning not only a new language, but a new culture too.
One of the things we do here is teach spanish to visitors through immersion. I have found that courses, tapes, videos etc. aren't really effective for most people.
Our method works wonders as one learns at their own pace... to suit their needs. Learning a language is a long process but a rewarding one. I have been able to design a program that eliminates alot of uneccesary stuff and starts you right in on what YOU need to get by day to day...based on your interests and levels.
I have taught people in thier 70's to speak enough spanish to live happily in this country so age is not an issue...dedication is the key and a willingness to learn and belief that YOU CAN!!!
Even if you are only on a 2 week vacation...make a friend who can spend some time with you just helping you with some phrases...any advancement is good...even a couple phrases a day is progress.
I am always amazed with people who have lived here for years and dont speak hardly any spanish...chalk that up to laziness.
Anyway...dont be discouraged...start today...make a new years resolution to learn a bit every day and you'll be knee slapping at the hilarious jokes made by your neighbours before long...enjoy.

chuckbolton - 12-17-2009 at 10:20 AM

i lived and worked in san quintin for 3 yrs. when i went down there my work partner was mexican and spoke very little english- fortunately his wife ( american) spoke both languages. i finally figured out that my partner's spanish was 50% slang 50% swear words (neither of which was in the dictionary that i had) with some good spanish thrown in somewhere. i had only 2 customers that spoke english so my learning of spanish was death by fire- (immersion). it went well and my conversational spanish is good-- it help when i started dating a mexican-- you really learn it then. so if your desire is to learn a foriegn language get a "bedside dictionary." just kidding for you married folks. i also learned that i could understand much better the educated mexican over the uneducated one. they spoke less slang.

i think in english we probably speak more slang than we realize . one reason retirees in baja speak little english is because they dont want to and most waiters and many clerks speak english. just as in the states we make compensation for non- english speakers. tho the form for my work permit was totally in spanish and i did it with no help and my bad spanish-- if u are half way intelligent you can make it thru--and by the way-- the event all took plaace when i was in my late 40's. so an old dog can learn new tricks. -- dont make the excuse that im too old--

i was amazed in baja at the number of mexicans who had never been in the snow even tho it can be seen at times from san quintin-- the attitude was "why? its too far and hard to get there. so many there have a lacadasical attitude also.

people dont vary too much regardless of nationality

shari - 12-17-2009 at 10:50 AM

Not having seen snow is most likely NOT because mexicans are lazy...they are mostly poor and cant just take a joy ride to see snow. Most trips are to visit family...it's a cultural thing and there is not usually enough disposible income for vacations except for family reasons...weddings, funerals, taking kids to college etc. I'm sure there are lots of things they need to spend what money they have before seeing snow.

learning from young children is great too because they have a more limited vocabulary.

chuckbolton - 12-17-2009 at 11:30 AM

you are correct shari-- i wasnt putting down the populace-- only noting a difference-- i know folks who plan vacations based on where they have relations to stay with for the same reason-- mexico isnot better or worse than the states-- only different-- by the way-- my wife is mexican-- so i do understand, i think.

BajaNuts - 12-18-2009 at 12:49 AM

here's another angle~

How many big cities...and small cities have "chinatowns"? Or the Italian/Russian/Columbian neighborhood?

Nationalities congregating together is natural. Been happening since the mid-1800's in NorthAm. How many people who live in "XXX-town" never learned English? Many never learned because they were able to live and function within the few-blocks-square of their native tongue speaking neighborhood and it worked for them in their limited community.

The topic of this thread is basically why visitor/foreigners don't speak the native language.

I've always felt that when I am visiting another country it is up to me to abide by their rules, languages and customs. And in response to that, I expect visitors ...and new immigrants...to my country to abide by and learn my country's language, laws and customs.

Gringo's congregating in a gringo bar/community in Baja.........predictable! Just as it is predictable for all other nationalities to seek out and live near ties to their homelands.


Thinking back to the immigrants who came to the USofA's shores in the last 200 years....how many of them arrived with their pensions in hand and their 401's totally locked and their "big-phat-house-sold"? With a bundle of moolah and the attitude of "I have the $$$, kiss my burro" ?

How many were fleeing any number of desperate situations from where they came? Can we give them a "bye" for not knowing English when they arrive in America after a desperate flight for freedom? imHo, yes we can give them a pass on the language when they enter the country.

Can we give them a "bye" when after 10 years, they still don't know how to hail a cab? or order a BigMac with anything other then "numbr whon" ?!?!?

I suppose I'm not talking about the Asian Mum who stays in her neighborhood and does all the walking by foot and doesn't have need of the public trolly...

Now, how many folks head down to Mexico without so much as a por favor and expect everyone in Mexico to know English?

Why can't Americans learn Spanish?

Sharksbaja - 12-18-2009 at 01:14 AM

Flojos!:rolleyes: