BajaNomad - Lining Suggetions

Lining Suggetions

AzMandella - 12-16-2009 at 09:19 AM

Hi everone! I am new here and new to Saltwater Fly Fishing. I have recently purchased 3 Sage Xi2's in 8,10,and 12 weights. I was wondering if anyone had any lining suggestions as far as weight of line for each rod(i.e. does an 9 weight Rio line work better on the 8 weight rod better than an 8 weight line?) I would like info on floating(Saltwater taper), intermediate and sinking. Thanx. :tumble:

Santiago - 12-16-2009 at 09:52 AM

You are in the wrong place. Go to Allcoast and ask it. Contact http://bajaflyfishing.blogspot.com/search/label/Palmas%20Alt... So is this what it's like to win the lottery?

Pescador - 12-16-2009 at 02:24 PM

If you are casting longer distances then you will certainly want to go down a size. For longer casts with an 8 wt rod, I usually use a 7 wt line because in the salt water in Baja you will probably be making a little longer casts. I have pretty much gotten away from standard lines and have gone to mono with a shooting head and it seems to perform better in the wind. Also I can control the sink and most species that we target want things down in the water column so I use a shooting head with exceptionally fast sinking tips and seem to do much better. I use top quality spectra for backing because the normal line used for backing just does not hold up and takes up more capacity than I want. For some monster yellowtail it is better to have more line capacity.
I would reccomend a book that a friend of mine wrote by the name of Trey Coombs on Saltwater Flyfishing that really covers all of those and more techniques as he is a real leader in what happens on the west coast. Most of the writers focus on Florida and the Key which is a whole different ball game than what we do on this side of the globe.
I did tie up some killer flying fish and squid flies this year with hollow tubing and the tuna really went nuts for them, now we are just starting in to the yellowtail season where they are up on top enough to get them to go to work on the squid flies and a few deceivers thrown in for good measure.
Geez, Santiago, do you guys just meat fish up there in BOLA?

Santiago - 12-16-2009 at 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador
If you are casting longer distances then you will certainly want to go down a size. For longer casts with an 8 wt rod, I usually use a 7 wt line because in the salt water in Baja you will probably be making a little longer casts. I have pretty much gotten away from standard lines and have gone to mono with a shooting head and it seems to perform better in the wind. Also I can control the sink and most species that we target want things down in the water column so I use a shooting head with exceptionally fast sinking tips and seem to do much better. I use top quality spectra for backing because the normal line used for backing just does not hold up and takes up more capacity than I want. For some monster yellowtail it is better to have more line capacity.
I would reccomend a book that a friend of mine wrote by the name of Trey Coombs on Saltwater Flyfishing that really covers all of those and more techniques as he is a real leader in what happens on the west coast. Most of the writers focus on Florida and the Key which is a whole different ball game than what we do on this side of the globe.
I did tie up some killer flying fish and squid flies this year with hollow tubing and the tuna really went nuts for them, now we are just starting in to the yellowtail season where they are up on top enough to get them to go to work on the squid flies and a few deceivers thrown in for good measure.
Geez, Santiago, do you guys just meat fish up there in BOLA?

Aww jeez - make me look bad.
Begin rant:
At $500 a pop why not just get a full house and add a 7 for strolling the beach and a 15 for those grander blues. Maybe add the 9 for those times when the 8's a bit too light and the 10 is, well, you do want to feel the fight after all. And, of course, you can't just have one reel, gotta have a 7/8 and 9/10 and a big guy for the 12 with at least 2 spare spools each so I figure nearly $2000 there for basic saltwater reels and then we need backing and line for each spool at 9 X $50 (min) and a dozen or so kinds of leader systems and we'll need flies - it IS fly fishing after all. 2 or 3 dozen mix of basic flies to get started at about $3/each (no buck-a-bug here). Oh, and a pink shirt, vented in the back and some kind of super cool lanyard with stuff hanging on it. And Maui Jim sun glasses with those special eyeglass ropes that slide over the ends.
Senior Mandella: once you have all this go see Pescy as he's tha man on this board. Or come see us in BOLA and for about $50 on Craigs List we'll get you outfitted, drunk and sun burned with enough little bass for fish tacos as long as you're not real hungry. Your choice.
End of Rant

Pescador is right with respect to west coast FF. When I decided to start flyfishing in Baja I got all the stuff you see for flats fishing. Not much of that happening on the west coast. Then I contacted Pam Bowles of Baja Big Fish and she gave me a list of stuff for yellowtail: 10 weight with a big reel full of 450 grain line to get it down but I cheaped on the rod and the Elkhorn just couldn't throw it. I think the author Pescador is talking about is spelled Trey Combs and his book is Bluewater Flyfishing. I have not read it but have been told I should by more than one guy.
I only have one piece of advise: this ain't Montana and you will be assumed a snooty blowhard if you walk around with a flyrod. Your job will be to prove you're not. Personally, I keep my stuff out of sight until I'm at least 5 miles from camp.

Cardon Man - 12-16-2009 at 04:19 PM

Quote:

Pescador...I'm not understanding this advice. A 7wt line will not load an 8wt rod as well as an 8wt line. There's no way it could. To punch into the wind or reach greater distance it is a standard technique in fly fishing to overload the rod by 1 line weight. That is to say, you will want to cast a 9wt line on an 8wt rod.

richard nauman - 12-16-2009 at 05:01 PM

AzMandella,
You've got a good start with those rods. It would help us help you if we had a little more information on what type of fishing you are interested in. There are many habitats, species, and conditions that affect the situation.

I rarely use floating lines - only with poppers for Dorado. Otherwise I fish fast sinking shooting heads. Everyone has their preference - I mostly have Teeny lines (TS series) - there are plenty of other products that will work. With a little practice you should be able to cast these lines 100'. Get something heavy and if it overloads your rod you can trim the tip down.

Pescador is right - to catch fish you need to get deep fast. One of the greatest limits to flyfishing is even with fast sinking lines and heavy flies you can't get down to the fish.

In addition to Bluewater Fly Fishing by Trey Combs, Nick Curcione's Baja on the Fly is also very good.

As previously mentioned, Pam at www.bajabigfish.com has been a big help to many.

Santiago - 12-16-2009 at 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man
Pescador...I'm not understanding this advice. A 7wt line will not load an 8wt rod as well as an 8wt line. There's no way it could. To punch into the wind or reach greater distance it is a standard technique in fly fishing to overload the rod by 1 line weight. That is to say, you will want to cast a 9wt line on an 8wt rod.

You know, I wondered that a little myself but as I'm in way over my head I didn't question it. I was taught to carry a spool of one-over for just this reason. Do you guys remember the Powell Rods back when the old man was building them? I think they were nearly always labeled 5/6 or 7/8 as he believed any rod could/should be fished that way.

stimbo - 12-16-2009 at 07:44 PM

I agree, contact Pam Bolles at www.bajabigfish.com.

... and Cardon and Pescador are both right about line weights. However, the key distinction is the distance you are casting. For short casts into the wind, you should "line up." The heavier line will load the rod properly when not that much line is out. But for long distance casting with windy conditions, it is better to "line down." When you false cast with more line out, this extra line out loads the rod, then the smaller line cuts thru the wind. If you try to line up with distance casting the rod bends too much and all you can get are big, lazy loops that fall short of the target.

Pescador - 12-17-2009 at 08:44 AM

As a rodbuilder I can tell you that it takes a certain amount of weight to properly load a rod. Most manufacturers take an average cast, weigh that amount of line and try for approximately 1/3 deflection of the rod tip. So a normal cast of say 70 feet will load a rod to the desired deflection. Now, when you want to cast 90 feet you have added more line than the rod was designed for, all other things being equal, and need to drop down a size in line rating to help accomodate that. Actually when I build a rod, I watch the guy cast and actually measure his average cast in order to match up with a rod that will work most effeciently.
Now this is further complicated by the fact that most fishermen in this side of the world are fishing for tuna, yellowtail, and the like and a sinking line is much more effective for this type of work. When you are lifting that much line from under the water, you need the extra lifting power of a rod that is slightly heavier than the line you are tossing.

I really like Santiago's approach and keen insight into the whole flyfishing thing. When a River Runs Through It was produced, almost overnight the whole flyfishing boon was born and people were spending more on clothing and one outfit than we spent n 20 years on more basic equipment. I always figured, in a twisted way of course, that this was somehow a good thing. These guys never did catch nearly as many fish as I did, they looked pretty dandy with all their colors and fancy stuff, and they not only supported the tackle shops in a way that I would consider frivilous, and they had almost completely bought in to the catch and release thing. I learned how to do this because of a desire to try some other methods of fishing but I hope someone shoots me if I ever start to think that fish produced on a fly rod are somehow more holy that a fish produced on a Penn 4/0 with an Ugly Stick rod and some 40 lb line with several knots on the spool.

Santiago - 12-17-2009 at 12:21 PM

Wow - a light just went on. I guess my problem is that I don't get the distances you guys do and most of my FF is in Sierra creeks and float-tubing small lakes.
Your comment on 'lifting that much line on the water' is exactly what my first experience was. After talking with Pam many years ago, I bought a 3 piece 10 weight with reel at the ISE show from the Elkhorn booth - whole thing was $175 cash out-the-door; rod, reel, case. Went to my local fly shop, bought backing and 450 grain line and took it to BOLA on my next trip. Stood on the front of my boat, stripped off about 50' of line and started false casting towards the shore. Fly settled on the water with nary a sound, sunk to 10' and whammo - a 15" grouper. Feeling quite full of myself I lay out another 40' cast but no bites. I do a couple of strips to get the line straight, lift my rod to start the back cast and the rod simply bends over while lifting maybe 20' of line and everything is soon tangled in fly line.
When I got home, I went into the fly shop and explained my problem to the owner who very gently asked me what rod I was using; "A 10 weight Elkhorn". He spent the next 20 minutes explaining how there wasn't a man alive who could do what I was trying to do with what I was using and if I wanted to do this I needed to step up my rod to a nifty $699 model or since I was really just plugging the shore why not get a Lefty Kreh 7 weight, Bauer reel and a bunch of clousers and have fun. This works for me.

Santiago - 12-17-2009 at 12:43 PM

And since I get all worked over this stuff, we recently had an 'upscale' shopping mall open in my town and Orvis has a store there. Great, I think and go in as soon as they opened. I swear to god I am not making the following up:
8000 square feet of floor space with maybe 10' of wall space with rods on display. 1 fly display case that is two sided, maybe 5' each side. 2 spinning racks with stream tools, fly tying tools and fly boxes. One very small tying desk with lamp and magnifier. Maybe 20' of wall with feathers, hooks, threads and the like. The rest of the store, like maybe 95% is all clothes. A fricken clothing store with $90 shirts, $200 wading pants, and a huge section of 'lodge clothing', whatever the heck that is, for when you're back at the lodge having a brandy discussing 'the days river activities'. When a young, clean-cut kid came up and asked if he could help me, I asked him if any of the 'river activities' actually included fly fishing. The sarcasm was lost on him.

Skipjack Joe - 12-17-2009 at 01:25 PM

A few things Santiago:

1. Elkhorn makes a 'medium/fast' rod. I know cause I fish the Elkhorn. To get more distance you want a faster rod than that. My son and I fish 8wts for salmon in alaska and I can cast more line a greater distance with the TFO than the Elkhorn. The farther the target the greater the distinction between and Elkhorn and the TFO. We cast the same line.

2. A 10wt rod IMO just doesn't cast as well as an 8. I have both and the 10 has more lifting power but not the 'throwing power' of the 8. A 12 wt is just a meat stick, a club, throwing out line very poorly. But it's the right tool for bringing up tuna. So, I believe that the rod weight also makes a difference in how far you can cast.

3. I fish mostly with a 30' shooting head in baja that's a line larger than recommended. I don't line up with full lines (floating for bonefish, slow-sinking 'Slyline' for skittery tuna).

You and Jim are right that flyfishing is far more expensive than it has to be. Well, granted a good reel with a good saltwater drag is going to run some money. But good fly rods are unjustifiably expensive. People in alaska are amazed at what californianos show up with. The question is why. They don't catch more fish than the alaskans. Their $400 waders don't the water out any better than their waders. And so on down the line (sweat shirts instead of polar fleece, etc.). If you go on www.danblanton.com people are arguing the relative merits of a sage ($600) versus a thomas and thomas ($800). Just amazing.

Santiago - 12-17-2009 at 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
A few things Santiago:

1. Elkhorn makes a 'medium/fast' rod. I know cause I fish the Elkhorn.

You and Jim are right that flyfishing is far more expensive than it has to be. Well, granted a good reel with a good saltwater drag is going to run some money. But good fly rods are unjustifiably expensive.

I was not 'casting' dispersions on the Elkhorn; only trying to point out that in my ignorance, I was asking it to do something it could not.
A question for Pescador: is there really a difference in the cost of manufacturing the blank between a good 20# bass fishing rod and a good fast action 8 weight? Or say a 9' conventional steelhead rod. What accounts for the difference in cost between a TFO and Sage? And finally, what do you recommend I do with the 10wt Elkhorn? (well, other than Craig's List). If I told you what I DO use it for you would probably toss your cookies, heh.
Thanks

Skipjack Joe - 12-17-2009 at 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago
I was not 'casting' dispersions on the Elkhorn; only trying to point out that in my ignorance, I was asking it to do something it could not.

Elkhorns are fine rods. I just think they're better fishing rods than casting rods, at least in the 5-6 wt range.

Those softer action rods transfer the thrill of the fight much better than the casting rods. I still like to occasionally use my old Fenwick 6wt glass rod. A 45ft cast was an achievement but boy when you had a trout on it was just a wonderful experience.

But in saltwater that distinction is unimportant because these fish pull so hard that these subtleties are unnoticed. When you're bonefishing at Christmas Island with the wind blowing into you at 20mph, then you want a fast rod real bad. In fact you're doomed without one. The trick to casting into the wind for me was to do it waist high and side arm.

AzMandella,
If you're going to buy an intermediate line get the AirFlo clear line that sinks at 2" per second. It works real well when the baitfish have been chewed up and maimed individuals are slowly descending. A slow sinking ALF pattern can be very effective. But those opportunities aren't that common.

Actually if you have a lot of saltwater flyfishing questions you might consider visiting Dan's bulletin board www.danblanton.com

Pescador - 12-18-2009 at 08:47 AM

Well, now this gets really interesting. Elkhorn's are sold in my hometown in Loveland, Colo, and he imports them from Asia. Several years ago the guys at Rodbuilding.org developed a weighing system for blanks that basically used a sack of pennies to deflect the rod to a certain point and then you could figure out what was the best set up and line usage for a given fisherman. I measured a few of the Elkhorns because I had heard about them while on a trip to Alaska. There was some real problems with inconsistency of resistance and the curve was a real problem. They also seemed to have the spine of he rod on the wrong side which may account for Skipjacks idea that they fish well but cast poorly. I talked with the owner of Elkhorn about buying a few blanks but his opinion was that it was just as easy to let the asian guys put on the eyes because that was just about all that was involved. He found it hard to believe that I could almost guarantee 10% - 15% better distances with a rod that was wrapped correctly and tuned to an individuals style.
In terms of building the blanks, there is a whole science involved in the development of materials, manners of wrapping the cloth around a mandrel, curing, etc., etc., and yes there is quite a bit of difference between various manufacturers of blanks. Then different companies really add on the profit margin because the market will bear that. My favorite blanks to work up are St. Croix and they seem to work the best for me personally.
The elkhorn blanks, in my opinion, are a lot like Pac Bay blanks and have that same kind of softer feel which I think comes from the softer tip. So, Santiago, you may do the best trying to keep closer to the surface and that should be an acceptable rod for some of the smaller yellowtail and a good rod for small to medium dorado.