BajaNomad

Airplane Anti-Theft Device for BAJA!!

Skeet/Loreto - 12-23-2009 at 04:48 PM

O.K. All of you Nomads Flyers or Fisherman.

Lets see if we cannot make enough of a Stir to get some Smart Young Kid a desire to invent an Anti-Theft Device for small Aircraft going to Baja and other parts of Mexico.

It can be done!
Contact all the Pilots you know. All the Fisherman you know that fly to Baja and other parts of Mexico.
If you have contact with people in the Insurance business, call them and ask for their Help.

Now all you Pilots get in and Help. Contact anyone who may be able give Information. Write Letters and e-mail AOPA , Plane and Pilot. Newspapers.

Baja is worth keeping Safe. Stoping the Thefts of Airplanes is just one Step Forward. It could develop into other things that lower our risks.

We can do it.

wessongroup - 12-23-2009 at 04:50 PM

ditto's very good idea

Pacifico - 12-23-2009 at 04:54 PM

Here's one way to clean it up......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpFGonYaF14

FAA-Approved ?

MrBillM - 12-23-2009 at 05:00 PM

OR Not ? THAT would be the BIG problem.

However, MY suggestion would be something that doesn't affect actually modifying the plane.

How about a Motion-Sensor audible alarm along with a DYE BOMB ? Whole F--ing interior covered in Slime. Washable AFTER a time, of course. Better than losing the plane.

Given human nature, though, there might be quite a few Pilot/Owners who forget and go BOOM.

It might also REALLY P--s off guys who often go around with AK-47s.

monoloco - 12-23-2009 at 06:19 PM

How about some sort of spring loaded device that fits under the seat and goes right up the rectum of an unauthorized pilot at about 200ft.

woody with a view - 12-23-2009 at 06:26 PM

say "ahhhh!"

NVTech_vc065567.jpg - 34kB

fishbuck - 12-23-2009 at 06:30 PM

"get some Smart Young Kid"

Okay Skeet, I'll start working on it right away!:bounce:

potential solution

steekers - 12-23-2009 at 06:50 PM

check my post in the stolen plane thread!

DENNIS - 12-23-2009 at 07:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by steekers
check my post in the stolen plane thread!



Originally posted by steekers
As one who flys to Baja, I offer the following:

The owners of the airport I visit will need to install a motion-detector that would alert me (or someone else if in early am) to any activity around the plane. When detected, a series of alarms and cameras will be activated AND some very fierce dogs will be let out of their kennels. At this same time, my very well hidden on-board tracking device will be activated and cannot be shut off. Failing all the above, an on-board fuel deprivation system device will kick in and starve the engine fuel...down goes the plane!!!

Sound plausible?

larryC - 12-24-2009 at 09:49 AM

This doesn't have to be complicated, why not remove something from the plane that will prevent the engine from starting, like the battery? I'm not a pilot, but I am pretty mechanical so I am sure that there are other things that can be safely removed and replaced by a relativly competent pilot. Of course each pilot would have to be the judge of what they are comfortable with. Maybe one of the wheel and tires, something visible so that the thieves will go to another plane and steal it. Your plane doesn't have to be impossible to steal just harder than the next one,
Larry

capt. mike - 12-24-2009 at 10:16 AM

this is all a waste of time.
if you fly a 200 series Cessna do not go to mexico, period until the problem is fixed.
if you have ANY concerns regardless of AC type.....do not fly to mexico, period.

dicking with the plane's systems is not the solution.
having proper insurance is a good idea regardless.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-24-2009 at 10:24 AM

Mike:
There are many different kinds of Anti Theft Devices for Automobiles, why not Airplanes.
I have made contact with Cessna about them developing a device. I in no way suggested the pilot to try to do something on his own!!

We can control our Cars, our lights, our coffee pots, with a remote ,Why not the Ignition system of an Airplane:??

ncampion - 12-24-2009 at 10:51 AM

In another post I suggested an inexpensive tracking device called the SPOT messenger. It is a handheld device that transmitts a signal to a sattelite with it's GPS position. This can then be viewed by people (with a password) on any internet connected PC. It is designed for hikers, off-roaders or other adventure mined people and also features a "911" feature which alerts rescue authorities. This device could be hidded and hard-wired to the plane and would allow the owner to locate the stolen plane just about anywhere on the plante.

While this won't "prevent" the theft, after a couple of theives are caught and the planes recovered, it would sure deter future attempts. They are cheap and small and can easily be hidden. I use one for my boat in case anyone decides to take an "unauthorized cruise".

http://www.offroute.com/product/view_product.asp?X_ID=149171

.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-24-2009 at 11:04 AM

ncampion"

The regular person flying into Baja does not want to in any way shape or form try to engage the Thieves!!

Please

These people are professional Killers.

What I am talking about is a similar device that would activate a Chip installed in the ignition System therefore preventing the Aircraft from Starting. The pilot would be the only one with the code Transmiter.

Do you know anybody connected with the maker of the "Spot" They may ber able to direct you to someone who could contact Cessna Corp. I feel sure they would be looking to put such a device in their new Aircraft. Be a good selling point!!

Technological Innovation

MrBillM - 12-24-2009 at 11:09 AM

Perhaps contract with Toyota to offer a version of their Electronic Ignition and Throttle system. Should work as well on an aircraft as it does on some vehicles.

Being serious for a moment and realizing that the NUMBER of people who feel directly or indirectly involved with these particular events THINK it is a problem of huge proportions, just how many units are involved as a percentage of General Aviation Flights/Hours ?

The thought that the people at Cessna, the FAA or anywhere else are waiting with rapt anticipation for an innovation to conquer these dastardly deeds is Ludicrously Ego-Centric.

[Edited on 12-24-2009 by MrBillM]

Skeet/Loreto - 12-24-2009 at 11:12 AM

Short Story: No names used;

Several years ago there was a Cessna 210 stolen from the Arizona area and taken across the border. It was being used in and around Navajo. One day it was on a trip just North of Navajo when a Cessna 337 came along side and gave them a signal to land, then fired a shot that went through the Door of the 210/

The 210 landed on a street in a very small village, the occupants jumped out and fled in a Green VW Bus. Airplane was left running until it ran out of
Fuel.
The Villagers finally moved the plane off the street and went about their busibess. Several months later an individual arrived with Aviation Fuel Filled up and flew the Plane North across the Border underneath the Radar.

Insurance Company paid all Expenses returned the plane to its rightful owner.


The stolen plane Bunch are well organized. Do not mess with them.

DavidT - 12-24-2009 at 11:14 AM

How about an autopilot like the military drones. And a hidden video camera to see the pilots face.

simple..... it's the FAA - not here to help GA

capt. mike - 12-24-2009 at 12:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Mike:
There are many different kinds of Anti Theft Devices for Automobiles, why not Airplanes.
I have made contact with Cessna about them developing a device. I in no way suggested the pilot to try to do something on his own!!

We can control our Cars, our lights, our coffee pots, with a remote ,Why not the Ignition system of an Airplane:??


getting them to certify, STC or TSO any part or aftermarket or new parts ad nauseum is ridiculously time consuming and expensive.
never happen - no market to justify the punitive capital investment.
you're ideas are well meaning Skeet but simply not pragmatic today.

Santiago - 12-24-2009 at 01:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
The 210 landed on a street in a very small village, the occupants jumped out and fled in a Green VW Bus.


Good story Skeet, you write it as if you were there.... I would change it to read "drove away" as fleeing in a VW bus just isn't possible.

larryC - 12-24-2009 at 02:33 PM

Capt Mike is right in that there is probably no way in the world to get the FAA to authorize an aftermarket device. Any solutions we came up with would be for indiviual pilots to use as a deterent for their own airplane.
Another device I thought of, which would not alter the aircraft or its systems in any way would be a simple wire with an aligator clip on each end. Clip the wire somewhere to ground out the ignition system so the plane won't start. When you are ready to fly home just unclip the wire and put it into your pocket and your plane is back to original. I doubt the thieves, if they tried to steal a plane with the ignition grounded would take the time to find the fault. Quien sabe?
Anyway it might work for a pilot that knows a little about the ignition system on his plane.
Larry

capt. mike - 12-24-2009 at 02:48 PM

most everybody i know of who have done a secret security device are doing simple hidden in line kill switches.
effective but illegal.

if found during an FAA ramp check it's a serious fine.

frankly - what i am seeing is guys just aren't willing to go if they fly desired cartel planes.
there's a guy asking now on BBP whether his C 185 is a target - hell yes it is. Many thiefs know how to fly an end swapper!!
and talk about use ful load plus STOL capability....can't beat a 180 or 185 for druggie duty.

i worry about my fuel being ripped if parked at an unguarded spot. my tanks hold about $450 worth of gas at US retail prices, and the caps do not lock. Kids will siphon it to put in their jalopies! they won't steal my Piper but they'll muck it up and leave me stranded. my choices have been severely limited now. at least until Mexico fixes this. 30 years of gleeful baja flying down the tube....damn!!

Skeet/Loreto - 12-24-2009 at 02:54 PM

I appreciate all of your interest. So many years ago you could fly just about anywhere with out a flight Plan or nav.radio talk. Too Bad.
Skeet

Sharksbaja - 12-24-2009 at 04:01 PM

Funny thing is(actually not so funny), the authorities, whoever the hell THAST is, seem to be doing verrrrry little in the way of tracking down these bums.

Has anyone been questioned by investigators? Are detectives actually doing due diligence in their quest to bring these guys down? I mean really, it can be done. For instance, a real working powerful radar with perhaps a crew with a ready to go jet. They do have a jet in Mexico don't that? Wouldn't they be able to intercept any plane at any time?

Aren't these planes flying across the SOC? Wouldn't a radar perched high see these flights???

woody with a view - 12-24-2009 at 04:05 PM

i feel like "they" know where the planes are going. i don't think "they" care. remember the Peruvian air force downing that plane a few years back. supposedly had americans on board or was a missionary plane (after the fact) on a mission from/to god....

interception would require effort, something officials have very little tolerance for!!!:no:

Skeet/Loreto - 12-24-2009 at 04:13 PM

Sharksbaja:

It just does not work the way you are talking about.

There is no organized interdiction at all in Mexico.
I can direct you to where most of these planes that have been stolen are located.

What do you do?? There is no Govt. Type organisation that does anything for recovery.
The insurance company will hire an Adjuster to verfiy Damage then pay the claim. Not enough money to get involved with !!No! at this point there is notheing anybody can do.!!

Too Bad.

ncampion - 12-24-2009 at 05:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
ncampion"

The regular person flying into Baja does not want to in any way shape or form try to engage the Thieves.


Skeet, I would never recommend that a private person ever try to apprehend a criminal under any circumstances. I would expect that with the location information, one could approach the appropriate authorities to make the arrest and recovery.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-25-2009 at 07:55 AM

There is just no organized Investigation or for that matter Police work involved.

They do not share as we do in the States. So No! Please donot any one attemp to stop an Airplane theft, let it go.

I do think with the right device they can be prevented.

Skeet

exactly - takes gov't infrastructure

capt. mike - 12-25-2009 at 08:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody in ob
i feel like "they" know where the planes are going. i don't think "they" care. remember the Peruvian air force downing that plane a few years back. supposedly had americans on board or was a missionary plane (after the fact) on a mission from/to god....

interception would require effort, something officials have very little tolerance for!!!:no:


to go after and/or monitor this stuff - aircraft theft.
the Mexican feds can hardly handle their own biz without wanting to care about a handful of gringo tourist planes getting ripped by cartels which have millions $$$$$.
why should they care? what's in it for them to actively work to prevent or solve these events? nothing and it cost $$ and resources to get involved.
strip registration, ditching and fed guards are as far as they care to go.

Tano - 12-26-2009 at 10:27 AM

The device which is the most effective when considering cost and ease of installation is kill switch. One, which was actually in plain view, saved my car in the early 80’s. Install one for the starter, better if it is a temporary-state one, which needs to be pressed with one hand while you turn on the ignition with the other. Of course, the switch has to be somewhat hidden but handy. You can install another one for the ignition system itself, but you need a good quality one. You don’t want it to fail when you’re in the air.
The installation of switches needs some ingenuity, also, so you minimize the number of wires connected to it. In some cases, just one wire will suffice (one end grounded), but any wiring will have to come from the engine compartment, under rugs, etc., otherwise, wires may be handy enough for any thief to fool with. After that “the sky is the limit” as far as how sophisticated you want to get.

If you’re in a hurry, just take the battery with you. Who carries a 24-volt battery around?

capt. mike - 12-26-2009 at 10:41 AM

" If you’re in a hurry, just take the battery with you. Who carries a 24-volt battery around? "


well two 12's can start a 24 v system.
plus - you don'd need a battery to start or run a plane's engine.
you can jump one and as soon as it fires pull the batt or leads, or move the car.
Plane engines use magnetos for ignition, once the motor starts. you can lose all electrics while flying and while you might not have elec driven accessories like radios and nav gear - the engine will continue to run until you pull the gas off (normal shut down) or turn off the mags. this is the redundancy built in to make these engines safer.
i guess it makes them easy to steal too.....

Tano - 12-26-2009 at 05:39 PM

The part about the battery was a facetious comment. I forgot to add also that you could simply hang a sign on the plane that says, “El motor no arranca.”

The assumption here seems to be that potential thieves have all the time in the world to get the plane running. In that case, forget it. They can even tow it away. Ingenuity implies having a pager system that will alert you when somebody is tampering with your plane, and you are able to shorten the time anybody may have to get away with it. Otherwise...

805gregg - 12-26-2009 at 05:55 PM

If you are going to take an expensive movable piece of gear to a third world country with ineffective police you are nuts and on your own. I was driving behind 2 fed Polica cars when a large Ford truck pulling a big sport fishing boat passed going the other way. Both cop cars pulled a "u" and followed. Bring expensive gear to Mex and you are creating a crime scenario.

woody with a view - 12-26-2009 at 06:16 PM

ahh c'mon Gregg

the cops just wanted to go fishing, or rub the chrome rails or admire the hot mamacita in the passenger seat or.....

Skeet/Loreto - 12-27-2009 at 11:57 AM

LOng Article in the Amarillo Globe News about some guys they caugh near Amarillo.

DEA put a Electronic Tracer in their Car, Got a Warrant several months befoe and followed it for the Bust. ..Looks like some body with some Risk factors could do the same with any 210;s flying in to Baja. Course you would not have to get a Warrant, but it would sure be fun to trace the plane after it gets snatched. If I was in DEA I would look into this right away,

And if they make me the right Deal I will go to Mexicao and steal it back. and return it to the States, All it takes is Money{Dimero}

C-Urchin - 12-27-2009 at 11:33 PM

Has anyone seen the TV show called "Bait Car" ?