BajaNomad

Aiding and Abetting

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CaboRon - 12-30-2009 at 08:07 AM

Profs Develop Smart Phone for Illegals
Tuesday, 29 Dec 2009 12:14 PM Article Font Size

SAN DIEGO – A group of California artists wants Mexicans and Central Americans to have more than just a few cans of tuna and a jug of water for their illegal trek through the harsh desert into the U.S.

Faculty at University of California, San Diego are developing a GPS-enabled cell phone that tells dehydrated migrants where to find water and pipes in poetry from phone speakers, regaling them on their journey much like Emma Lazarus' words did a century ago to the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" on Ellis Island.

The Transborder Immigrant Tool is part technology endeavor, part art project. It introduces a high-tech twist to an old debate about how far activists can go to prevent migrants from dying on the border without breaking the law.

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Immigration hardliners argue the activists are aiding illegal entry to the United States, a felony. Even migrants and their sympathizers question whether the device will make the treacherous journeys easier.

The designers — three visual artists on UCSD's faculty and an English professor at the University of Michigan — are undeterred as they criticize a U.S. policy they say embraces illegal immigrants for cheap labor while letting them die crossing the border.

"It's about giving water to somebody who's dying in the desert of dehydration," said Micha Card##as, 32, a UCSD lecturer.

The effort is being done on the government's dime — an irony not lost on the designers whose salaries are paid by the state of California.

"There are many, many areas in which every American would say I don't like the way my tax dollars are being spent. Our answer to that is an in-your-face, so what?" says UCSD lecturer Brett Stalbaum, 33, a self-described news junkie who likens his role to chief technology officer.

Migrants walk for days in extreme heat, often eating tuna and crackers handed out at migrant shelters in Mexico. On Arizona ranches, they sip desperately from bins used by cows when their water runs out.

Hundreds have perished each year since heightened U.S. border enforcement pushed migrants out of large cities like San Diego and El Paso, Texas, in the 1990s. In response, migrant sympathizers put jugs or even barrels of water in the desert.

The designers want to load inexpensive phones with GPS software that takes signals from satellite, independent of phone networks. Pressing a menu button displays water stations, with the distance to each. A user selects one and follows an arrow on the screen.

Some worry the software could lead migrants to damaged or abandoned water stations. Others wonder if it would lull them into a false sense of security or alert the Border Patrol and anti-illegal immigration activists to their whereabouts.

John Hunter, who has planted water barrels in California's scorching Imperial Valley since the late 1990s, says vandals destroy about 40 of his 150 stations every year.

"My concern is for people who arrive and find (the water) doesn't exist," he says.

Luis Jimenez, 47, was abandoned by smugglers and rescued by the Border Patrol twice this year — once after hitting his head on a rock and again after being bit by a snake. The Salvadoran migrant, who hopes to reach family in Los Angeles, would try the GPS device but can't afford one.

"If it tells you where to find water, it's good," he said at a Tijuana, Mexico, migrant shelter.

The phone designers say they are addressing the concerns, with an eye toward having the phone ready by midsummer.

"We don't want to create a safety tool that actually puts people in more danger," Stalbaum says.

The water locations beamed to the phones will be updated constantly to ensure accuracy. If the distance is too far, they won't appear on the screen.

The designers, who have raised $15,000 from a UCSD grant and an art festival award, hope to hand out phones for free in Mexico. The phones sell used for about $30 apiece. It costs nothing to add the GPS software.

Distribution would be tightly controlled by migrant shelters and advocacy groups to keep them away from anti-illegal immigration activists. The migrants would need passwords to use them.

U.S. authorities are unfazed. The Border Patrol has begun a $6.7-billion plan to drape the border with whiz-bang cameras, sensors and other technology.

"It's nothing new," said Border Patrol spokesman Mark Endicott. "We've seen handheld GPS devices used by smugglers. ... We're just going to have to learn to adapt to any challenges."

Critics of illegal immigration say the device is misguided, at best.

"If it's not a crime, it's very close to committing a crime," said Peter Nunez, a former U.S. attorney in San Diego. "Whether this constitutes aiding and abetting would depend on the details, but it certainly puts you in the discussion."

The software is being designed to direct migrants to water stations but Card##as said they may add other "safety markers," like roads, towns and Border Patrol lookouts.

The group has published verses to be played on the phone's "Global Poetic System."

One poem reads, "May your tracks cut the shortest distance between points A and B."

surfer jim - 12-30-2009 at 10:07 AM

Let's send busses down, pick them up ,and take them around to the various welfare offices, dmv, doctors ect. so they can feel welcome.:mad:

Mexicorn - 12-30-2009 at 10:53 AM

It is a good idea if it can save one persn it's paid for it self. Maybe Surfer Jim should try walking around in the desert with a group and no water then he might have a heart.

CaboRon - 12-30-2009 at 11:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mexicorn
It is a good idea if it can save one persn it's paid for it self. Maybe Surfer Jim should try walking around in the desert with a group and no water then he might have a heart.


They are not just walking around ... they are criminals who are violating our borders .

Mexicorn - 12-30-2009 at 11:56 AM

Criminals? no not all CaboRon some are just honest people who work hard and are pressed to make the cross to feed thier families. I'll bet you have no idea whats it's all about to live in poverty Caboron because if you your self knew true poverty you wouldn't talk like now that would you.
You are an idiot caboron!
SuferJim get your head out you your rectum you're a close second.

Bajahowodd - 12-30-2009 at 12:30 PM

I side with Mexicorn on this. Seems to me that we have developed an extremely vocal minority in this country who can only see issues as simply black or white. People who have lost their ability to understand the nuances and complexities of issues. It's not like a bunch of Mexicans are sitting around a bar in TJ and decide it would be fun to head north and check out the chicas in Boyle Heights. These are pitifully poor folks who hope to be able to earn money for their families by doing hard work. What exacerbates the problem, is that as we have managed to erect a monstrous fortification that spans much of the border's populated areas, literally forcing desperate people to risk their lives trekking through the desert. The wall we have built and continue to build, on the border with a non-hostile nation is an embarrassment.

Sadly, although it appears that the Obama administration is looking to make comprehensive immigration reform a priority in 2010, it has already indicated that a significant part of their effort will be further strengthening and fortification of the border- for the most part to placate their political foes who have already stated they will fight against any path to legalization for those already here.

I don't see this happening on the Canadian border, but then, Canadians are mostly white and speak English.

Packoderm - 12-30-2009 at 12:36 PM

What these people are is enablers. Mexico now has no urgent need to develop into a viable nation which looks after the interests of its own citizens while they continue to have the safety valve in the form of jobs from illegal immigration which keeps Mexican society from reaching the boiling point and then demand and fight for change. If we like and enjoy the conditions that the Mexican people live, then these academic enablers are on the right track. What I really don't like is their help in sneaking the people in. If they want to make a stand and drive buses right to the border and pick up immigrants, then that would be a whole lot less "chickenchit" than helping people sneak around in the desert.

And yes, the Mexican immigrant worker is honest, but his wife and kids are likely on welfare while he works undocumented. These workers tend to pool together in certain vocations and crowd out the American worker who is required to legally support his or her family and thus cannot compete. These are not necessarily jobs that "nobody wants" either. Here in my area, there was once a burgeoning construction industry that employed Americans who just didn't seem to fit into the white collar world. The last time I was on a jobsite, I had to keep looking and looking for somebody who spoke English until I finally found the superintendent. Some of the Americans who once worked on these jobs have found vocations in the information technology trades and whatnot - and good for them. Unfortunately, many more are now displaced workers without a meaningful, legal means of self-support. Especially hard hit are the African Americans and Chicanos.

And also especially hard hit are the many Mexican workers living in a yet to be developed Mexico. It will have to be one of two ways: Either we will maintain a border to protect each others' sovereignty so that Mexico will fix its festering challenges, or we will need to do away with the border altogether and allow free travel and commerce in both directions. I don't think Mexico is ready for the latter option.

mtgoat666 - 12-30-2009 at 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaboRon
Quote:
Originally posted by Mexicorn
It is a good idea if it can save one persn it's paid for it self. Maybe Surfer Jim should try walking around in the desert with a group and no water then he might have a heart.


They are not just walking around ... they are criminals who are violating our borders .


they are not criminals. the "law" that prevents people from crossing borders to seek greener pastures is not a valid law in any humane system -- so i say they are not criminals. in a free and humane world people should be free to cross borders. only selfish inhumane people throw up borders to facilitate their hoarding.

Packoderm - 12-30-2009 at 12:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by CaboRon
Quote:
Originally posted by Mexicorn
It is a good idea if it can save one persn it's paid for it self. Maybe Surfer Jim should try walking around in the desert with a group and no water then he might have a heart.


They are not just walking around ... they are criminals who are violating our borders .


they are not criminals. the "law" that prevents people from crossing borders to seek greener pastures is not a valid law in any humane system -- so i say they are not criminals. in a free and humane world people should be free to cross borders. only selfish inhumane people throw up borders to facilitate their hoarding.


Let's say I agree with you, then do we exclude anybody? I surmise that about 1/2 billion people in India wish to move to the U.S. immediately and about as many more from China do as well. Significant portions of the other countries such as Nigeria, Liberia, Russia, Haiti, and many, many others wish to move here now. Should we let them all in at once? If not, then how many - 1 billion? 1/2 billion? How many? Do we have jobs for them all? Do we have food and water for them all? If we do draw a line, then where do we draw this line - at Panama?

The reason the the U.S./Canadian border is not such a flash point has more to do with the equilibrium of socioeconomic conditions of our countries than racial profiling.

Eugenio - 12-30-2009 at 12:54 PM

Excellent points Packoderm.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mexicorn
It is a good idea if it can save one persn it's paid for it self. Maybe Surfer Jim should try walking around in the desert with a group and no water then he might have a heart.


At the risk of being told that I have my head up my rectum I'd suggest that some of these programs might actually encourage people to cross at unsafe places and in unsafe ways - thereby costing more lives. It's not a simple situation.

And I suppose that Mexicorn would opine that Cearar Chavez and the UFW also had their collective heads up their rectums for opposing illegal (and legal visavis the Bracero Program) immigration:

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Chavez

Scroll to "Immigration":

The UFWA during Chávez's tenure was committed to restricting immigration. César Chávez and Dolores Huerta fought the Bracero Program that existed from 1942 to 1964. Their opposition stemmed from their belief that the program undermined US workers and exploited the migrant workers. Their efforts contributed to Congress ending the Bracero Program in 1964. In 1973, the UFW was one of the first labor unions to oppose proposed employer sanctions that would have prohibited hiring undocumented immigrants. Later during the 1980s, while Chávez was still working alongside UFW president, Dolores Huerta, the cofounder of the UFW, was key in getting the amnesty provisions into the 1986 federal immigration act.[8]

On a few occasions, concerns that undocumented migrant labor would undermine UFW strike campaigns led to a number of controversial events, which the UFW describes as anti-strikebreaking events, but which have also been interpreted as being anti-immigrant. In 1969, Chávez and members of the UFW marched through the Imperial and Coachella Valleys to the border of Mexico to protest growers' use of undocumented immigrants as strikebreakers. Joining him on the march were both Reverend Ralph Abernathy and US Senator Walter Mondale.[9] In its early years, Chávez and the UFW went so far as to report undocumented immigrants who served as strikebreaking replacement workers, as well as those who refused to unionize, to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.[10][11][12][13][14]

In 1973, the United Farm Workers set up a "wet line" along the United States-Mexico border to prevent Mexican immigrants from entering the United States illegally and potentially undermining the UFW's unionization efforts.[15] During one such event in which Chávez was not involved, some UFW members, under the guidance of Chávez's cousin Manuel, physically attacked the strikebreakers, after attempts to peacefully persuade them not to cross the border failed.[16][17][18]


Yes Mexicorn - there situations are all extremely simple to understand - and the decisions are all black and white for decent, caring people.

Bajahowodd - 12-30-2009 at 01:50 PM

"Let's say I agree with you, then do we exclude anybody? I surmise that about 1/2 billion people in India wish to move to the U.S. immediately and about as many more from China do as well. Significant portions of the other countries such as Nigeria, Liberia, Russia, Haiti, and many, many others wish to move here now. Should we let them all in at once? If not, then how many - 1 billion? 1/2 billion? How many? Do we have jobs for them all? Do we have food and water for them all? If we do draw a line, then where do we draw this line - at Panama?"

I have some difficulty in grasping your numbers. I really think that too many Americans are full of themselves and living in the past as far as how much of a magnet the US is currently for foreigners. There are a number of countries, especially in Europe that do attract many of the folks from countries you mentioned.

However, this thread began as focused on certain issues involving land travel across the border, and the awful toll is exacts. i'm guessing that until Nigerians and Indians start trying to raft here, it won't be an issue.

tripledigitken - 12-30-2009 at 02:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
However, this thread began as focused on certain issues involving land travel across the border, and the awful toll is exacts. i'm guessing that until Nigerians and Indians start trying to raft here, it won't be an issue.


You arn't under the impression that just Latins are crossing our southern border are you?

Ken

Packoderm - 12-30-2009 at 02:06 PM

The information is based on polls. 40% of those living in Mexico wish to move to the U.S. now. The percentage is higher in other countries - especially the war torn nations such as Sudan. The people who do not have an overwhelming desire to move here are those living in functioning countries.

Bajahowodd - 12-30-2009 at 02:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
The information is based on polls. 40% of those living in Mexico wish to move to the U.S. now. The percentage is higher in other countries - especially the war torn nations such as Sudan. The people who do not have an overwhelming desire to move here are those living in functioning countries.



Just curious about the polling methodology. Is the US the sole option versus staying put? Like, if there were multiple choices that included other industrialized, democratic countries? Just curious.

Packoderm - 12-30-2009 at 02:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
However, this thread began as focused on certain issues involving land travel across the border, and the awful toll is exacts. i'm guessing that until Nigerians and Indians start trying to raft here, it won't be an issue.


You arn't under the impression that just Latins are crossing our southern border are you?

Ken


This is how I was considering how to sneak an Indian friend in for a tour of the U.S. He admitted though that he would try to stay in the U.S. rather than fly back to India via Mexico.

k-rico - 12-30-2009 at 02:24 PM

5000+ crosses representing the number of people who have died in the last decade crossing the border:

crosses.jpg - 43kB

k-rico - 12-30-2009 at 02:26 PM

close-up



[Edited on 12-30-2009 by k-rico]

crosses1.jpg - 42kB

k-rico - 12-30-2009 at 02:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
However, this thread began as focused on certain issues involving land travel across the border, and the awful toll is exacts. i'm guessing that until Nigerians and Indians start trying to raft here, it won't be an issue.


You arn't under the impression that just Latins are crossing our southern border are you?

Ken


Why don't you tell us who else?

tripledigitken - 12-30-2009 at 02:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
However, this thread began as focused on certain issues involving land travel across the border, and the awful toll is exacts. i'm guessing that until Nigerians and Indians start trying to raft here, it won't be an issue.


You arn't under the impression that just Latins are crossing our southern border are you?

Ken


Why don't you tell us who else?



I'll let you ponder it for awhile.:lol:

DENNIS - 12-30-2009 at 02:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
they are not criminals.



Some are, or want to be. To assume all crossers are in search of honest employment is ludacris. Since when did Mexico become a nation of angels?
How many crossers come from the belly of the big cities? Do you think that atmosphere breeds virtuous tenants? Take your lilly white ass for a stroll down the streets of those neighborhoods for a graphic and painful answer.

Bajahowodd - 12-30-2009 at 02:43 PM

I surmise that the "other-than-Latins" you are referring to had to somehow enter Mexico, most likely via air or ship. In that case, they would have at least been legal visitors to Mexico. In any case, it'd be a stretch for billions of people to do it that way, no?

Packoderm - 12-30-2009 at 03:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I surmise that the "other-than-Latins" you are referring to had to somehow enter Mexico, most likely via air or ship. In that case, they would have at least been legal visitors to Mexico. In any case, it'd be a stretch for billions of people to do it that way, no?


You seem to be working quite hard at not considering our point. If the U.S. opens it's doors to one and all, then we will have the magnitude of travelers to the U.S. from around the world.

If we were talking face to face, it would be easier to see where you are coming from. I have talked to some Aztlan types who really want an enlarged Mexico while feigning some other concern to achieve this end. Then you have your anarchist types who disrespect all rules and authority. My position is that of a former blue collar U.S. citizen who is concerned about the disenfranchised people in our workforce who would continue to be blue collar workers instead of down and out if such opportunities were availble. Workers here fought for a viable America with brick in hand and justice in their hearts. I'd hate to see the whole thing go back to what it was.

Without seeing you, would it be accurate to venture to guess that you might be the Aztlan type?

k-rico - 12-30-2009 at 03:39 PM

Let's not forget the fact that many of the the illegals that get across to find work, find it. Maybe if Americans would stop being criminals themselves by breaking the law and hiring them, there would be less trying to get across.

"Nearly 12 million illegal immigrants are estimated to be living in the United States. The vast majority work in low-skill, low-wage jobs. More than half work in construction, manufacturing or leisure and hospitality."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900

"Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor. Aliens and employers violating immigration laws are subject to arrest, detention, and seizure of their vehicles or property. In addition, individuals or entities who engage in racketeering enterprises that commit (or conspire to commit) immigration-related felonies are subject to private civil suits for treble damages and injunctive relief."

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrati...

MitchMan - 12-30-2009 at 05:30 PM

Without seeing you, Packoderm, would you not be an Aztlan type?

toneart - 12-30-2009 at 05:53 PM

Give them a drink of water for Christ's sake!!!
They're dying. :mad:

Packoderm - 12-30-2009 at 06:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MitchMan
Without seeing you, Packoderm, would you not be an Aztlan type?


You mean I would not be that type? Or is it would I not be the type? What are you asking?

wessongroup - 12-30-2009 at 06:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
Give them a drink of water for Christ's sake!!!
They're dying. :mad:


Ditto's

Packoderm - 12-30-2009 at 06:14 PM

I've got it figured out: They'd install water dispensers at various locations. All a suffering desert walker would need to do is press a button located on the water dispenser, and a helpful border agent will be right there to unlock the water. Problem solved.

MitchMan - 12-30-2009 at 06:20 PM

I think the real issue that has me a bit peaked at this time in this thread is in one's perspective on the whole matter. I think that it is NOT right to call all the illegal aliens "criminals" in the usual sense of the word. When one thinks of a criminal, at least for most people, one congures up a person who willfully and consciously and deliberately wants to do some one else harm who does not deserve such harm or who wants to steal something from some one else without earning the value received, like, let's say Madoff or Manson. The word cirminal has the strong connotation of a mental state of mal intent or "mens rhea". At least that is the way I use the word "criminal".

Now, Mexico has their borders and their sovereignty and they penalize those who don't respect their rules. We share the same border and we want it respected, and that is the way it should be for alot of very valid reasons.

Mexico has a wealth of natural resources and fewer people than the USA. They've been around as long as we have and they have observed us for all the time that we have been here, so they have a great example to follow, but they have chosen, as a people, not to improve their lot. Each people on this earth has the responsibility to take care of themselves, to improve their own country, to defend their own country, and to improve themselves. If they collectively don't have the self respect, work ethic, the desire for standards, self discipline, the insight or the intellectuality to accomplish these things as a country or as a people collectively when they have had the opportunity of time (same amount of time over the past 400 years as we have had), then the people have to get off their collective asses and do something about it themselves for themselves. It appears to me that the people of Mexico, collectively, have had neither the collective will nor the self discipline to do it. That's not our responsibility, it's theirs.

Having said that, I still do not think that it reflects one's humanity nor is it appropriate in common parlance to cavalierly broad-label thel illegal immigrant community as "criminals". I think to do that at every opportunity is flagrant, inflammatory, and quite frankly, smacks of a racist attitude. I prefer to use that word for the Madoff's and the Mansons of the world.

[Edited on 12-31-2009 by MitchMan]

[Edited on 12-31-2009 by MitchMan]

MitchMan - 12-30-2009 at 06:37 PM

Packoderm, ever diagram a sentence? Let me put it another way by quoting you ... Without seeing you, would it be accurate to venture to guess that you might NOT be the Aztlan type?

Packoderm, by your posting your question about my question, and then by my having responded with this post to restate the question to you, you've ruined my original half-way esoteric intent in posting the first question to you, which was more rhetorical in nature than in seeking the literal answer. Man, I'm not going to playwith you anymore. I picking up my toys and going home. You're no fun anymore.

arrowhead - 12-30-2009 at 06:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
Let's not forget the fact that many of the the illegals that get across to find work, find it. Maybe if Americans would stop being criminals themselves by breaking the law and hiring them, there would be less trying to get across.

"Nearly 12 million illegal immigrants are estimated to be living in the United States. The vast majority work in low-skill, low-wage jobs. More than half work in construction, manufacturing or leisure and hospitality."


What you are forgetting is that these illegals are also violating the laws of Mexico. Mexican law says it is illegal for a Mexican citizen to depart the country without a passport and a visa for the destination country. It is also illegal to depart the country via other than a port of entry. Yet every day about 500 Mexicans are deported through the gate at San Ysidro, and not one of them has ever been charged with violating Mexican laws. And also recognize that Mexican law enforcement does not arrest Mexicans waiting at the fence to crawl over it when it is dark, even though that is clearly illegal.

So it is not just the "draw" of work in the US, it is also the "push" from Mexico which encourages its citizens to violate the sovereignty of the US and not only does not punish such behaviour, it rewards it.

And finally, we should rethink about whether we want 12 million low-skill workers in the US. The average illegal alien in the US does not hold even a high school education and has an IQ almost one standard deviation below the average. I'm not saying Mexicans are any more stupid that any other people. But there is some kind of a natural selection process occurring where Mexico tends to send the bottom half of its people to the US, whereas the smarter ones are able to remain and succeed in Mexico.

surfer jim - 12-30-2009 at 07:03 PM

Well....whoever wants them to drink water should invite them over to THEIR house to stay for a while....and then tell me how you feel about the situation.:spingrin:

Packoderm - 12-30-2009 at 07:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MitchMan
Packoderm, ever diagram a sentence? Let me put it another way by quoting you ... Without seeing you, would it be accurate to venture to guess that you might NOT be the Aztlan type?

Packoderm, by your posting your question about my question, and then by my having responded with this post to restate the question to you, you've ruined my original half-way esoteric intent in posting the first question to you, which was more rhetorical in nature than in seeking the literal answer. Man, I'm not going to playwith you anymore. I picking up my toys and going home. You're no fun anymore.


Well, actually, what I meant to say was, I could not would not wish for that not to be the case if it could never have been in any time to come.

I better clear up the part about not seeing the person during the conversation. It doesn't have to do so much with physical characteristics as it does with tone and cadence. Is the person genuinely concerned with suffering individuals in the desert or is there an issue with the U.S.'s right to its sovereignty in relation to Mexico?

danaeb - 12-30-2009 at 07:36 PM

I've lived on the border for the whole of my 60 years. I would gladly share my water, food and shelter with those who are only seeking work in order to care for their families.

You can call me naive, ignorant or stupid, or whatever nasty adjectives you want to use.

I have, and will continue to provide my support to those who toil without complaint.

Packoderm - 12-30-2009 at 07:58 PM

I suppose by virtue of this being a forum devoted to exotic, international travel (and the demographics involved with such a forum) it would be forgivable not to find anybody directly affected by vocational displacement due to immigrant labor which would explain the apparent laissez faire attitude regarding our nation's border. There is nothing being given away that affects many of you directly. It doesn't affect me directly, but I remember when it did, so I'll stand up for the American worker - alone if that is how it is.

Mexicorn - 12-30-2009 at 08:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by surfer jim
Well....whoever wants them to drink water should invite them over to THEIR house to stay for a while....and then tell me how you feel about the situation.:spingrin:


I for one would be more than happy to do that.

DENNIS - 12-30-2009 at 08:56 PM

This is all pretty much academic. Eventually, somebody's going to get tired of all the drugs coming across the border and the only thing that will stop it will be militarization.

That foto of the mass of crosses up there, if taken fifty years ago, would have been Stars Of David except, in that case, the victims were forced to their death. Today, the trip into the oven is one of personal choice.
Shame on the Mexican government for allowing and encouraging this option. It's a bad choice to walk into a desert inferno and those that make the choice do it with full awareness of the consequences. There is no justification to use poverty as a reason to commit suicide.

The sooner the military takes over the region, the more lives will be saved from the ravishes of drugs and heat. It can't be too soon for me.

Packoderm - 12-30-2009 at 09:58 PM

This is one of the few wedge issues that can effectively divide liberals. Liberals will let their principles on immigration sway their vote. Conservatives seem to be able to let it go and listen to and vote according to whomever is setting the party line. Liberals tend to either be completely for illegal immigration out of compassion for poor foreigners or against it out of concern for the American worker and American culture. Conservatives are lukewarm for it for the cheap labor it provides and simultaneously against it to foster fear and compliance among the illegal immigrants - along with a smattering of concern for American culture and sometimes due to xenophobia. As our resources dwindle and our way of life becomes more constrained, we can look forward to this becoming an increasingly volatile issue.

k-rico - 12-30-2009 at 11:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
That foto of the mass of crosses up there, if taken fifty years ago, would have been Stars Of David except, in that case, the victims were forced to their death. Today, the trip into the oven is one of personal choice.


Pow, zing, that's a real mind-bender. Synapses/arteries a bit corroded?

k-rico - 12-30-2009 at 11:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
Liberals tend to either be completely for illegal immigration out of compassion for poor foreigners or against it out of concern for the American worker and American culture.


Naw, I'm a liberal on this issue and I'm against illegal immigration and all for the wall. Why? Out of concern for the Mexicans. Can you imagine having a dream, leaving you home for a foreign country and risking your life to achieve it, all to find out it was an illusion and you're surrounded by people that hate you?

Packoderm - 12-31-2009 at 12:50 AM

I don't think they're necessarily hated, but what they find here financially and the quality of life must be a bit of a letdown. There's a Latino enclave in just about every city and town, so they shouldn't feel terrible isolated here. I've worked with many Mexican immigrants, and if they fall into a work-crew with Americans they do quite well as far as learning English and building a new identity as immigrants. If they fall into a crew of only Mexicans, then they don't encounter American culture at all, so their experience here is solely a monetary one. The 2nd generation is likely to go to a rough school and learn the gangster culture which I feel is unfortunate. There are exceptions of course, but I have worked in some of the roughest schools, and what I see is undeniable. I'm really not too terrible hopeful for many of their futures. What I see sucks really.

garynmx - 12-31-2009 at 03:51 AM

If the USA would crack down on companies and people hiring these people, they would not cross. If you are hungry and cannot find work, of course you would cross to find work and feed your family, but if there was no work there you would not cross. Make all the Americans who are on welfare do the jobs these poor people are crossing over to do. No work no welfare check.

Eugenio - 12-31-2009 at 12:35 PM

There are two different discussions going on here - one has to do with illegal immigration in general - and the other has to do with this project in particular.

To return to some of the details of the original article - I doubt that anyone on this board (correct me if I'm wrong) would deny water to a dehydrated human in front of them.

However this project is going a lot further in encouraging unknowing folks, with poetry and false security, into a risky environment. And they're doing it for their own selfish "in your face" political reasons. If they were really concerned with the well-being of the illegal immigrants they would be sending out literature imploring them not to attempt the crossing.

If these academics are going to encourage people to cross in dangerous areas then they should be held responsible for the safety of the illegal immigrants choosing that means of entry.

I guess in a perfect world yes we would have water stations and rescue personell available - (the US already do by the way) but at the same time do everything possible to discourage crossing in to the US in the heat of the desert.

Again - it's not the water - or even the information about where the water is that bothers me per se. It's the callousness and self righteousness of the artists and academics that I don't like.

Meanwhile the most needy remain pawns.

Speaking of Nigerians .......................

MrBillM - 12-31-2009 at 01:11 PM

I saw on the news today that THEY are concerned that the latest "incident" might make it more difficult for Nigerians who are EAGER to do business in the U.S. acquire Visas.

Nigerians EAGER to do business in the U.S. ? Don't they do their Lottery Scam over the Internet ? What other business do they have ? That they need to come to America for, anyway ?

toneart - 12-31-2009 at 01:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eugenio
There are two different discussions going on here - one has to do with illegal immigration in general - and the other has to do with this project in particular.

To return to some of the details of the original article - I doubt that anyone on this board (correct me if I'm wrong) would deny water to a dehydrated human in front of them.

However this project is going a lot further in encouraging unknowing folks, with poetry and false security, into a risky environment. And they're doing it for their own selfish "in your face" political reasons. If they were really concerned with the well-being of the illegal immigrants they would be sending out literature imploring them not to attempt the crossing.

If these academics are going to encourage people to cross in dangerous areas then they should be held responsible for the safety of the illegal immigrants choosing that means of entry.

I guess in a perfect world yes we would have water stations and rescue personell available - (the US already do by the way) but at the same time do everything possible to discourage crossing in to the US in the heat of the desert.

Again - it's not the water - or even the information about where the water is that bothers me per se. It's the callousness and self righteousness of the artists and academics that I don't like.

Meanwhile the most needy remain pawns.


I think what is behind the giving water to dying cross border trekkers is three fold:
1. First comes the humanitarian act. I think it is genuine.
2. The method of deliverance may offend some, but it is creative...to serve a purpose.
3. Aiding and abetting could be a result but may not be considered as such by the artists and academicians. Some may indeed feel "self-righteous", some not, but I think that is more of a political concern to the judgmental whom are bothered by the deed.

“I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all those censorious, self-righteous people around me.” – anonymous

Where Were People?

Bajahowodd - 12-31-2009 at 01:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
This is one of the few wedge issues that can effectively divide liberals. Liberals will let their principles on immigration sway their vote. Conservatives seem to be able to let it go and listen to and vote according to whomever is setting the party line. Liberals tend to either be completely for illegal immigration out of compassion for poor foreigners or against it out of concern for the American worker and American culture. Conservatives are lukewarm for it for the cheap labor it provides and simultaneously against it to foster fear and compliance among the illegal immigrants - along with a smattering of concern for American culture and sometimes due to xenophobia. As our resources dwindle and our way of life becomes more constrained, we can look forward to this becoming an increasingly volatile issue.



I'm trying to wrap my brain around just exactly what Packoderm's point is. I get the feeling that one of the primary concerns comes from the realization that an apocalypse is underway for the US middle class. It started when Reagan fired the air traffic controllers and has continued unabated since. The historic middle class jobs were in manufacturing. Those got shipped wholesale overseas. As we encouraged a generation to get college degrees, we developed a service industry. That has been going overseas. Where do you think that guy is sitting at the other end of the phone when you call Microsoft, for instance. So, I'm guessing that your concern is that Mexican immigrants are here to steal menial jobs from our people, because jobs requiring more skills have drifted away.

Perhaps if the greedy folks in the board room and on Wall Street had listened to Peter Drucker instead Milton Friedman, we would still have an environment of corporate responsibility. Incredibly high CEO compensation is not really about income. It's about power and ego. Pushing every quarter to increase profits is ultimately self defeating.

SteveD - 12-31-2009 at 02:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MitchMan
I think the real issue that has me a bit peaked at this time in this thread is in one's perspective on the whole matter. I think that it is NOT right to call all the illegal aliens "criminals" in the usual sense of the word. When one thinks of a criminal, at least for most people, one congures up a person who willfully and consciously and deliberately wants to do some one else harm who does not deserve such harm or who wants to steal something from some one else without earning the value received, like, let's say Madoff or Manson. The word cirminal has the strong connotation of a mental state of mal intent or "mens rhea". At least that is the way I use the word "criminal".


Our jails are full of people who have not harmed anyone nor stolen from anyone (personal drug use) but they are "criminals".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The saying goes "We are a nation of laws not of men". Do we want people as US citizens whose first act is breaking our laws? We have over 1 million people per year coming to the US legally (more than any othe county!) and many of them go on to become citizens.

I am extremely liberal but I also belive we should obey our laws or work to get them changed.

[Edited on 12-31-2009 by SteveD]

Eugenio - 12-31-2009 at 02:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by toneart

I think what is behind the giving water to dying cross border trekkers is three fold:
1. First comes the humanitarian act. I think it is genuine.
2. The method of deliverance may offend some, but it is creative...to serve a purpose.
3. Aiding and abetting could be a result but may not be considered as such by the artists and academicians. Some may indeed feel "self-righteous", some not, but I think that is more of a political concern to the judgmental whom are bothered by the deed.

“I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all those censorious, self-righteous people around me.” – anonymous


I guess we just disagree as to their motives (your #1) - if they are really humanitarian they wouldn't be encouraging ill-prepared folks to cross the desert in the first place.

The "deed" of providing water or info on how to get it doesn't really bother me (#2). The deed of encouragement does bother me.

As to what's going on between the ears of these "artists and academics" (your #3) - I doubt that anyone on this board knows - I can only make my best guess based on their actions.

We're all being judgemental here (liberals and conservatives) - that's why we're posting on this theme. What's wrong with that?

At least these artists and academic have encouraged discussion/debate/judgement - that's a good thing.

Bajahowodd - 12-31-2009 at 03:08 PM

Perhaps the title of this thread should have been "aiding and abetting survival". Forgive me if I fail to see how anything proposed was encouragement. Desperate people, looking to feed their starving families do not need encouragement to try and cross the border. And given that the US economy's woes are common knowledge, it would seem to me that fact alone would weed-out all but the most desperate.

Eugenio - 12-31-2009 at 03:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaboRon
Profs Develop Smart Phone for Illegals
Tuesday, 29 Dec 2009 12:14 PM Article Font Size



Faculty at University of California, San Diego are developing a GPS-enabled cell phone that tells dehydrated migrants where to find water and pipes in poetry from phone speakers, regaling them on their journey much like Emma Lazarus' words did a century ago to the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" on Ellis Island.

;;;;;;;;;

The software is being designed to direct migrants to water stations but Card##as said they may add other "safety markers," like roads, towns and Border Patrol lookouts.

The group has published verses to be played on the phone's "Global Poetic System."

One poem reads, "May your tracks cut the shortest distance between points A and B."


Did you read the article?

How could this be enterpreted as being anything other than encouragement.

Bajahowodd - 12-31-2009 at 03:37 PM

All I know is that when I'm standing in line at the counter of a Panda Express, waiting to order Orange Chicken, I only see Mexicans working the woks in the kitchen. Show me the Chinese outrage.
:P

toneart - 12-31-2009 at 04:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eugenio
Quote:
Originally posted by toneart

I think what is behind the giving water to dying cross border trekkers is three fold:
1. First comes the humanitarian act. I think it is genuine.
2. The method of deliverance may offend some, but it is creative...to serve a purpose.
3. Aiding and abetting could be a result but may not be considered as such by the artists and academicians. Some may indeed feel "self-righteous", some not, but I think that is more of a political concern to the judgmental whom are bothered by the deed.

“I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all those censorious, self-righteous people around me.” – anonymous


I guess we just disagree as to their motives (your #1) - if they are really humanitarian they wouldn't be encouraging ill-prepared folks to cross the desert in the first place.

The "deed" of providing water or info on how to get it doesn't really bother me (#2). The deed of encouragement does bother me.

As to what's going on between the ears of these "artists and academics" (your #3) - I doubt that anyone on this board knows - I can only make my best guess based on their actions.

We're all being judgemental here (liberals and conservatives) - that's why we're posting on this theme. What's wrong with that?

At least these artists and academic have encouraged discussion/debate/judgement - that's a good thing.


I guess the difference between our viewpoints is that I don't think the artists and academicians consider what they are doing as "encouragement". They are doing a humanitarian act because the illegals are coming anyway. The reason I believe this is because I would do the same thing. I know my heart and I know I am not alone in this.

You are right about the fact that we are all being judgmental here in that we have viewpoints; mine to counter your (and other) viewpoints with which I disagree. Of course, I am judgmental too. Sorry for the "judgment" quotation. Yes, civil dialog is good and you do maintain that civility, Sir! I appreciate that.:light:

Skeet/Loreto - 12-31-2009 at 04:44 PM

garynmx:

Gary the trouble with your idea is that there is not enough people on wlefare nor are there enough people on welfare whio can and will do the work that the mesicanos do when they come across the Border.

Why do you think we had the Bracero Program many years ago.

Look at the Facts floks:

The"Wet-backs have been coming across this Border for many , many years and there has not been any Hollaring for water until theses "Liberal Nuts" have come up with their Scam. enforcement got toughter, more aiplanes for spotting the *******s, therefore pushing them into more Arid areas.


when you Liberal Nuts go out for the New year for a Wild DOPE taking Party, do you have the local Police clear the Streets for you so that you do not kill someones Child??

The Mexicanos have my full support to come across and get a job and do the best for their Family. They take the Risk. They Reap the Rewards or Failures. But Please donot let them become Liberal Nuts that depend on a Govt to take care of Them!!

They work, where the Liveral Nuts stand around the Mall telling everyone the problem but do not have the Minds to find a Solution!!


!

toneart - 12-31-2009 at 04:47 PM

:spingrin::spingrin::spingrin::spingrin::spingrin::spingrin::spingrin::spingrin:

Bajahowodd - 12-31-2009 at 04:51 PM

Who couldn't love him? even us liverals.:lol:

DENNIS - 12-31-2009 at 05:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
All I know is that when I'm standing in line at the counter of a Panda Express, waiting to order Orange Chicken, I only see Mexicans working the woks in the kitchen. Show me the Chinese outrage.
:P

Effing nonsense. The day you see those hispanic faces replaced with oriental mugs....you will have to rethink who's crossing the border between the gates.
It's a common occurence in this area to see Chinos coming onshore. I've seen them walking fifty at a time, single file through the hills.
Go to a local Chinese restaurant and ask the dishwasher what time it is. You think he migrated with papers?
I don't think so.

Bajahowodd - 12-31-2009 at 06:01 PM

The yellow peril?:?::?:

Seriously, though

MrBillM - 1-1-2010 at 10:33 AM

Does ANYBODY actually think this "Good Samaritan" program is going to accomplish its purpose ?

It's just another one of those Goofy things that Liberal Academics spending Tax Dollars come up with to make themselves feel good about their FEELINGS.

The U.S. Plan to force the Illegals out into the less-forgiving climate of the Desert is working well and will continue to do so. An excellent use of available resources by putting Darwinian principle to work.

Those who survive the Ganlet will be those who are stronger and more fit to do the Grunt Work.

DENNIS - 1-1-2010 at 10:58 AM

What ever happened to this program?

http://laprensa-sandiego.org/archieve/january04-23/angels.ht...

Interdicting Illegals

MrBillM - 1-1-2010 at 12:04 PM

Sunday, 10 January, The National Geographic Channel is premiering a new series titled "Border Wars" featuring Homeland Security personnel along the lines of "Cops".

wessongroup - 1-1-2010 at 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
Liberals tend to either be completely for illegal immigration out of compassion for poor foreigners or against it out of concern for the American worker and American culture.


Naw, I'm a liberal on this issue and I'm against illegal immigration and all for the wall. Why? Out of concern for the Mexicans. Can you imagine having a dream, leaving you home for a foreign country and risking your life to achieve it, all to find out it was an illusion and you're surrounded by people that hate you?


And that's the truth.... if one thinks there is not a basis overall against the Hispanic people with in the United States... get real... and for me, they are Native Americans... no different than the Lakota Sioux, Apache, Shawnee, and many, many other tribes which felt the full force of the European Culture .. and still do... my son is half American Indian "Papago" .... and he feels it... and he is here legally as he was born in Fresno, CA... 30 years ago...

DENNIS - 1-1-2010 at 12:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
they are Native Americans... no different than the Lakota Sioux, Apache, Shawnee, and many, many other tribes which felt the full force of the European Culture ..


Mexicans would be first to deny that as would the DNA of Hernán Coréz swimming around their gene pool.

bombero - 1-1-2010 at 12:59 PM

No one to my knowledge has ever died of thirst crossing legally. However many in the US have died ,including peace officers at he hands of those who crossed illegally! . I,ve visited Mexico and Baja many times during the last 35 years and have met many dying citizens, dying for a car or a better car, a house or a better house. Dying for better conforts of life, a better future for their family, but I,ve seen no one dying of hunger as in the African Countries. . Uncontrolled immigration can destroy any country socially, economically, and politically. Take a #, get in line and wait your turn!

Bajahowodd - 1-1-2010 at 01:04 PM

Dennis makes a good point. To many folks in the US, there is a stereotype of Mexicans that tends to be dark-skinned, with indian features. That's because the vast majority of immigrants from Mexico, especially illegals, tend to be native American or mestizo (mixed blood). They are the poor. They are the uneducated. There is a long cultural history in Mexico of identifying with the European heritage. In places like Mexico City and Guadalajara one will encounter many folks who clearly appear European. A premium was placed on fair skin, blond hair, etc. A caste system, if you will. In fact, as far as the US is concerned, until the Census Bureau decided they wanted more detailed data, Mexicans were considered to be white.

wessongroup - 1-1-2010 at 01:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
they are Native Americans... no different than the Lakota Sioux, Apache, Shawnee, and many, many other tribes which felt the full force of the European Culture ..


Mexicans would be first to deny that as would the DNA of Hernán Coréz swimming around their gene pool.


Among others swimming around in their gene pool, just like my boy.... but they still get the short end of the stick.. about the only good news I've seen for the Native American's is they are buying back their land and putting it into Federal Trust... don't think they are worrying about DNA at this point in time, nor am I, .... but, rather getting back their "culture" and what is wrong with that ...... or is there only one approved "culture"?, one religion, one way to talk, one way to eat.. dress, look, hair type, hair color, aahhhhh... missing something here... exactly the point k-rico was making.. it's an illusion for some, unattainable.. and don't put all your marbles in one basket on the DNA... what if, we learn in the near future, that someone from a far and distant galaxy came here and seeded earth with their "gene pool" now wouldn't that be a real eye opener ... and a really a big one for some institutions to deal with....

wessongroup - 1-1-2010 at 01:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bombero
No one to my knowledge has ever died of thirst crossing legally. However many in the US have died ,including peace officers at he hands of those who crossed illegally! . I,ve visited Mexico and Baja many times during the last 35 years and have met many dying citizens, dying for a car or a better car, a house or a better house. Dying for better conforts of life, a better future for their family, but I,ve seen no one dying of hunger as in the African Countries. . Uncontrolled immigration can destroy any country socially, economically, and politically. Take a #, get in line and wait your turn!


Hey, what are you smoking.. send me some... oh, that's right you qualified your statement with ignorance (to my knowledge).. really smooth.. as for no one dying of starvation... and comparing Mexico's environmental setting to Africa's ... aaahhhh gee, why didn't potatoes sprout up in Africa.. like many other plants in the America's which are not present in Africa.. you can't compare apples to oranges... they are not the same..

Africa is suffering from a extended drought, blood diamonds, the largest source of gold and diamonds found in the world.. believe many of their problems are also tied to the European culture landing on them and taking much of their culture away also..

And just to add on, while working for the State of California, it was not uncommon to find 30-40 guys living in one house with no water, no toilet, no gas, and just cooking on an open fire, breakfast burrito's.. this was not in Mexico, but in most of the Counties I worked in with the Department of Food and Agriculture in the 70's and 80's and I know things have not changed... other than their is 40-50% unemployment in the West side of Fresno County... no Ag work, as the Federal Government has cut back all water to grows of "row" crops, permanent plantings are getting first pull off the Feather River and all other sources... keep you fingers crossed.. as your prices on food should be seeing a pretty good jump this year....:):)

Apples and Oranges

MrBillM - 1-1-2010 at 01:39 PM

Speaking of which:

"other than their is 40-50% unemployment in the West side of Fresno County... no Ag work, as the Federal Government has cut back all water to grows of "row" crops, permanent plantings are getting first pull off the Feather River and all other sources... keep you fingers crossed.. as your prices on food should be seeing a pretty good jump this year...."

WHAT would the aforementioned problem (Feds cutting back on Water) have to do with the Illegal Immigration PROBLEM ?

The usual argument from the "Immigrant" supporters is that they provide cheap labor and Food prices would skyrocket without them.

Which is Bull since the labor that is supplied by the Illegals is only a small part of the market price. AND, whatever increase occurred would be a result of putting LEGAL residents to work. Isn't that GOOD in a time of +10 percent LEGAL unemployment ? IF it could happen RIGHT NOW, it would take Five years of job creation at the rate of 250,000 per month to bring the Unemployment rate back down to the "Normal" 5 percent.

As far as 30-40 living in one house, the usual reason is that they're sending a big percentage of their income back home to Mexico. Remittances from the U.S. is the number two source of Mexican revenue. Well, at least before the Crash.

[Edited on 1-1-2010 by MrBillM]

arrowhead - 1-1-2010 at 01:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
And that's the truth.... if one thinks there is not a basis overall against the Hispanic people with in the United States... get real... and for me, they are Native Americans... no different than the Lakota Sioux, Apache, Shawnee, and many, many other tribes ...


I know you are our newest "expert" in these matters, but I just have to tell you that the typical Mexican would be very insulted by your statement. You have all the cultural acumen of a slug.

If you don't belive me, just walk up to the next Mexican you see and tell him he is "muy indio".

wessongroup - 1-1-2010 at 02:10 PM

I don't support Illegal Immigration, did not say that I did.. only that the unemployment for Hispanics on the west side of Fresno County is between 40-50% due to no planting.

I don't care what you think the usual argument for "Immigrant supporters" is... really

As to what they are paid, thought I made that clear.. I used to see, 30-40 guys living in an abandoned house out in the sticks.. they were paid nothing, which again ties into the point k-rico was making about the "dream" these folks have about coming up to the States and making a "whole bunch of money" and find it's just not there for them... they get the scraps, if they are lucky....

And if you want to stop Illegal immigration, make the lending industry enforce current laws on the books about lending to business which employes undocumented workers.. I used to work in lending and the look I got when I suggested that this be included on business credits... as so many of the Banks customers had entire employee bases of illegal immigrants.. which I saw as a credit risk.. but, silly me.. it's no risk it is the way business is conducted here in most of the urban areas in the United States, why do you think this issue continues... follow the money..

I believe OK, does have a law that is actively enforced about this very subject [no illegals can get a job without and ID].. but then OK, does not grow the same kind of crops, as California nor does it have a garment industry, the Long Beach Harbor, Los Angles Harbor, restaurants along with many other situations which make a true comparison just about impossible...

You might want to rethink what I wrote above, as I did not write what you stated.... what I said was, this individual was making a point, that to HIS KNOWLEDGE, no one has ever died of thirst trying to cross the desert from Mexico to the United States.. and I wanted to know what he was smoking, as it must be some heavy duty bud.... following along with a complete denial of any one starving to death, was just adding in, that most of the people living on the west side of Fresno County and others must be toughing it out, as there is no work.. so they have no money, therefore no food, shelter, and the rest. Where you going to get something to eat in Fresno County in Jan. 2010.. there is nothing up, unless you want to chew on some sugar beets.. or the bark off Almond trees.. Oh, that's right one could go up to Zacky Farms in Merced County and maybe get some spilled grain from around the elevators... or some hay from the dairies please...

At least down here in Mexico, you can go out and get something out of the ocean.. or wipe a window or beg on the streets.. I don't get out much anymore but, panhandling in the States is not as big as it used to be... just guessing.. :):)

DENNIS - 1-1-2010 at 02:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
A premium was placed on fair skin, blond hair, etc.


For sure. You don't see a lot of sun-tan oil on your grocers shelf down here.

wessongroup - 1-1-2010 at 02:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
And that's the truth.... if one thinks there is not a basis overall against the Hispanic people with in the United States... get real... and for me, they are Native Americans... no different than the Lakota Sioux, Apache, Shawnee, and many, many other tribes ...


I know you are our newest "expert" in these matters, but I just have to tell you that the typical Mexican would be very insulted by your statement. You have all the cultural acumen of a slug.

If you don't believe me, just walk up to the next Mexican you see and tell him he is "muy indio".


Never claimed to be an expert, just married to a Mexican/American Indian Papago and have a son who is half Mexican/American Indian Papago ..

And for most American Indian's it does not surprise me that they do not want to be associated with "being" what they are.. this as their culture has been denigrated and/or destroyed by the European culture for the past 500 years.. and trying to get a job in the white man's world is difficult in most cases...

And for walking up to a stranger and telling someone, that... why would I do that..

I have discussed this topic for over 40 years with my wife's family and others... no one has ever shot me, pulled a knife or got physical one time.. in some cases they did not agree.. and they would rather cling to a "concept" that they at some point in time were "Spanish"... which makes them "better", well I don't see it that way...

It's about the individuals, not race and/or culture... that's the way I see it, and that is what I'm talking about... read into it what ever you want...

You have your take, I have mine, and I'm telling you all... not taking shot from the outside... what is your family history, have they ever worked in Copper Mines, have they ever been field workers, ever washed dishes for a living, ever been a "swamper" at the produce market.. worked in a saluter house, a rendering plant... ever been put in jail for something they did not do, just because they are Hispanic/Amerian Indian...

Thanks it all helps.... in my opinion

:):)

Skeet/Loreto - 1-1-2010 at 04:15 PM

group: Some of what you are posting is on the mark, but you are leaving out some things:

My First Visit to the Richest Agricultural County in the World-Fresno County!! Came in 1954 when I entered the School of Criminology/Police Science at Fresno State College and took a Part time Job with the Fresno County Agri as a Cantalope Inspector.

When Group refers to the unemployment he is referring to that which happens each year doing the Winter Season.

Fact. The Dept. Of Employment at Fresno County has been controlled by the Mexicanos for near 40 years, Fact-?Check it out Group.I happen to know an highly approve as they send "Their own people out and tell them they had better stay on the job and do a good one"'

Ceasar Chavez came a long and was able to get some real advances for the Mesican Field Worker and Group Have you checked the LGoing Wage for an Irrigation Mexicano Field worker ???
Have you checked the going rate for a Dairy Worker. and Group Please include the Workmans Comp. priviledges included..

I have been involed with the Mexicano for many years, in all my time I know that they resent being coupled with the native Americans. Many people with Indian Blood such as I have difficultiy wondering why the Basic native American {Indian} cannot improve his Culture. Casinos?? and the same as the Blacks -Entertainment NBA NFL RAP Misuc????

In my 38 years in Baja I found the people much different thatn is being put forth by Group, I lived at San Nicholas for 4 years with the Mexicano Families. They are a Proud Peoiple, hard working as a group{Which you cannot say for the Indians and Blacks}
Otherwise why do they risks their Lives to come to the States.?

In my many years in the Fresno Area, I found them to be real good workers and Human beings, They wanted to do better such as a guy named Phillip Sanchez.

Yes, there is and there will awlways be Hate for other people.
Yes there are Gangs and some kids not being educated, but through the Mist there are others doping good and enjoying their Lives.

hey Group! Been to dos Palos lately?? How about Los Banos??

If you are interested I have 10 acres real close to Dos Palos that i will let you have for a 1/2 Million. I will even carry a contract for 10% on a 20 years Note.

Let me Know.

Skeet

Fresno County

wessongroup - 1-1-2010 at 05:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
group: Some of what you are posting is on the mark, but you are leaving out some things:

My First Visit to the Richest Agricultural County in the World-Fresno County!! Came in 1954 when I entered the School of Criminology/Police Science at Fresno State College and took a Part time Job with the Fresno County Agri as a Cantalope Inspector.

When Group refers to the unemployment he is referring to that which happens each year doing the Winter Season.

Fact. The Dept. Of Employment at Fresno County has been controlled by the Mexicanos for near 40 years, Fact-?Check it out Group.I happen to know an highly approve as they send "Their own people out and tell them they had better stay on the job and do a good one"'

Ceasar Chavez came a long and was able to get some real advances for the Mesican Field Worker and Group Have you checked the LGoing Wage for an Irrigation Mexicano Field worker ???
Have you checked the going rate for a Dairy Worker. and Group Please include the Workmans Comp. priviledges included..

I have been involed with the Mexicano for many years, in all my time I know that they resent being coupled with the native Americans. Many people with Indian Blood such as I have difficultiy wondering why the Basic native American {Indian} cannot improve his Culture. Casinos?? and the same as the Blacks -Entertainment NBA NFL RAP Misuc????

In my 38 years in Baja I found the people much different thatn is being put forth by Group, I lived at San Nicholas for 4 years with the Mexicano Families. They are a Proud People, hard working as a group{Which you cannot say for the Indians and Blacks}
Otherwise why do they risks their Lives to come to the States.?

In my many years in the Fresno Area, I found them to be real good workers and Human beings, They wanted to do better such as a guy named Phillip Sanchez.

Yes, there is and there will awlways be Hate for other people.
Yes there are Gangs and some kids not being educated, but through the Mist there are others doping good and enjoying their Lives.

hey Group! Been to dos Palos lately?? How about Los Banos??

If you are interested I have 10 acres real close to Dos Palos that i will let you have for a 1/2 Million. I will even carry a contract for 10% on a 20 years Note.

Let me Know.

Skeet


:lol::lol::lol:

Dos Palos and Los Banos brings back memories ... trying to get across HWY 152 in the fog.. and the wind always blowing.. but you could get a good meal at there Basque .. but like the Santa Fe downtown.. by the tracks.

Yeah, I bet you would, but not sure what I could do with 10 acres.. Kiwi, or Snow Peas.. bit small for any Ag... and I know what your talking about in the winter for farm labor... but, Skeet's check with the Ag Commissioners Office, talk to Jerry Preito he is the Commission currently... tell him Wiley said Hi... and that he needs to get things straighten out there in Fresno... regarding water...

This down turn has to with NO west-side planting of a number of money crops for all: lettuce, carrots, onions, tomatoes, melons, and a lot more not being put in this year.. they are not getting the water this year to grow, so they are not planting, no new farm machinery sales, no dirt work, no chemicals, no fertilizer.. Star Warehouse in Fresno, central distribution center for all Chemicals is almost empty, and they are channeling the water it to the Trees that are in and are producing, and they are saying no to the row crops.. at this time...

It's a drought here in California, think Texas has a bit of one too, my sis in AR said that hay is being hauled from AR to TX ...

Unless God/Mother Nature puts about 7 years of snow pack up on the Sierras... things are going to really bad, as they might not have the water for planting plus maybe the lawns and pools in SoCal.. they are not even sure what they are going to do with the Cotton this year and that's coming up real quick..

I too, found the "Mexican hands" to be some of the best when it came to "growing" stuff.. they like "growing things" and they are really good.. and were some of the hardest working folks I ran across .. they do it day in day out, in heat, working on their hands and knees or bent over at the waist harvesting things.. some of you should try harvesting grapes in the San Quoin Valley in the summer time, with temps well over 108ş in between rows of grapes which keep the breeze if any down to nil... cutting bunches of grapes as quickly as possible, with spiders and mites getting down your neck, fine sandy soil in your teeth, ears and the rest or putting down for grapes for raisins.. that is just one crop that is really very difficult to harvest by hand...

As what they get, depends on WHO they work for.. and your right Caesar Chavez gave them things like a hourly wage, toilets in the field ... the "Big Growers" tend to treat the folks better than the smaller growers.. If one got lucky and worked for some of the majors they did ok, they would give them a truck, a radio next to there bed and minimum wage... or a little more and they were on call 24/7 and happy for the work.. as they were not going to be getting a job in the Mall, Insurance Office, Banks, you know what I'm saying..

I got out of Ag, because they (Industry wide) don't pay for a guy that has a bunch of college... even folks that I knew who worked for the largest grower in California, J.G. Boswell, only made $50,000 a year and that was in 1986.. I worked in Ag from 1974 till 1992 ... then moved into a completely different industry, Banking.. now there is a group if you want to hang someone... I can recommend a few, and I will supply the rope...

I will say this about non working Indians.. it's a shame, and we contribute to them every year to try and help them out of their mess.. not sure one can, but every little bit helps I like to think.. but as far as non working Indians, my wife's relatives work in the Copper mines in AZ.. now you want to talk hard work.. never have done that one, I get claustrophobic can stand being underground... at all.. but they work in the mines... and live in the Desert.. that is their land, been there for, a long time....

Only reason, they are on their own dirt: no oil, no gas, no water, no uranium, just some old copper to mine near by ...

Most just passed the area on by, as it was "just a desert"... with a bunch of Indians living like animals..

Well, they are still there... and good for them... and all the others ... don't think anyone asked them if they wanted a change.. it just happened.. and they are still dealing with it...

Good to hear someone else from Fresno area.. enjoy the work, but not the Government

And I fully understand what you are talking about with the folks that you have know for all those years down in the Baja.. every time I meet someone here in Baja I'm thankful for them treating ME so nice.. I have been treated better here in Mexico as an old man, crippled up from living life then I ever was in California.. they treat folks with respect, until your an ass then they treat you like a ass/burro... really like the burro that I have picked up down here...

Thanks for your take on things, I appreciate anyone thoughts on the issue.. not trying to start a fight, just like everyone to be on the same page...

Only one question, "people much different thatn is being put forth by Group,"

Not sure what I have put up that is anything but respectful of a very proud people , that I have worked with, and have a great deal of love for both family and non family number a great deal.. and as far as them improving them selves like "Kobe Bryant, Vic, Tiger Woods.. and many, many others who have "improved" themselves.. I'll take the Native American as is, just like the ones your talking about down in the Baja... no white wash on him/her thank you very much... just honest people living life with dignity and pride.. I'll drink to that I hope you will too.. Not sure I could do two fingers of Tequila, but I'll toss down a couple in your honor.. have to get some of this "good" stuff they are talking about here ... I used to just drink it.. never thought about the taste... after the second swig, it was like water..

Wiley



:):)

abreojos - 1-2-2010 at 05:57 AM

Interesting topic for a bunch of Baja/Mexico lovers. Bottom line is if there weren't illegal jobs available for the Mexicans to work then there wouldn't be an illegal immigration problem. Best point the finger in the right direction. Employers who exploit workers (all workers) and the government for letting them do it. Living from paycheck to paycheck you either got to work, beg, become a thief or even worse die....

Skeet/Loreto - 1-2-2010 at 08:06 AM

abreojos:

No sure what you mean by "illegal jobs".
I did an investigation many years ago for an Unidentified Person regarding Jobs.
There was not as many Employers hiring as indicated in the Media. Also the major Gripe among the mexicanos, legal and illegal was their treatmen by the Stores on Prices!!
I too was surpised.

You would be surpised at the number of Mexicanos involved in the Fresno County and State of Calif. Govts.

Now here in Texas since coming back 4 years ago I have observed that the Twson and High Schools are still somewhat Divided. And there is a definite Seperation in the Cowboys, just check out the Las Vegas Rodeo, But ther are a couple of Mexicano Cowboys that are starting to make inrioads,

If you gop down to the Local Hiring Corner in Amariloo you will not see any Mexicanos, it will be Poor White Druggies. All the mesicanos around the Panhandle have Jobs at the Feed lots starting at $12.63 Hour, in Construction at about 15.00 Dollars an hour,

A good many of these Mesicanos are not Illegal,

Of Course this is just the opposite of the Car Makers employees exploiting there Employers by raising the Hourly pay scale to $70. and Hour.

Sure makes all us poor Folks pay High Price for Automobiles. Would you agree??

Skeet

crossing

bombero - 1-2-2010 at 08:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
I don't support Illegal Immigration, did not say that I did.. only that the unemployment for Hispanics on the west side of Fresno County is between 40-50% due to no planting.

I don't care what you think the usual argument for "Immigrant supporters" is... really

As to what they are paid, thought I made that clear.. I used to see, 30-40 guys living in an abandoned house out in the sticks.. they were paid nothing, which again ties into the point k-rico was making about the "dream" these folks have about coming up to the States and making a "whole bunch of money" and find it's just not there for them... they get the scraps, if they are lucky....

And if you want to stop Illegal immigration, make the lending industry enforce current laws on the books about lending to business which employes undocumented workers.. I used to work in lending and the look I got when I suggested that this be included on business credits... as so many of the Banks customers had entire employee bases of illegal immigrants.. which I saw as a credit risk.. but, silly me.. it's no risk it is the way business is conducted here in most of the urban areas in the United States, why do you think this issue continues... follow the money..

I believe OK, does have a law that is actively enforced about this very subject [no illegals can get a job without and ID].. but then OK, does not grow the same kind of crops, as California nor does it have a garment industry, the Long Beach Harbor, Los Angles Harbor, restaurants along with many other situations which make a true comparison just about impossible...

You might want to rethink what I wrote above, as I did not write what you stated.... what I said was, this individual was making a point, that to HIS KNOWLEDGE, no one has ever died of thirst trying to cross the desert from Mexico to the United States.. and I wanted to know what he was smoking, as it must be some heavy duty bud.... following along with a complete denial of any one starving to death, was just adding in, that most of the people living on the west side of Fresno County and others must be toughing it out, as there is no work.. so they have no money, therefore no food, shelter, and the rest. Where you going to get something to eat in Fresno County in Jan. 2010.. there is nothing up, unless you want to chew on some sugar beets.. or the bark off Almond trees.. Oh, that's right one could go up to Zacky Farms in Merced County and maybe get some spilled grain from around the elevators... or some hay from the dairies please...

At least down here in Mexico, you can go out and get something out of the ocean.. or wipe a window or beg on the streets.. I don't get out much anymore but, panhandling in the States is not as big as it used to be... just guessing.. :):)

Skeet/Loreto - 1-2-2010 at 09:02 AM

As to Hiring Illegals!?

What is the Answer for an Employer who needs Workers!!
The only Workers to be hired are Illegal??

It is true all over"
One of the Reasons for many companies to go overseas.

What is a Local Employer to do if there is not enough Workers..


What is the Answer. ??

bombero - 1-2-2010 at 09:15 AM

Wessongroup: May i suggest that before you quote or comment on one,s post, make sure you read it correctly. I stated no one has died of thirst crossing legally. Those who choose the "desert route" are not legally crossing. You read only what you wanted to believe! You chose not to comment on the deaths in the US due to those who crossed "illegally" using the desert. "starving in Fresno" bark off almond trees, have you not heard of wefare, food stamps, wic vouchers, or food banks???????? Perhaps you should open your home and bank account to help solve this crisis in your community!!

The Gull - 1-2-2010 at 09:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eugenio
To return to some of the details of the original article - I doubt that anyone on this board (correct me if I'm wrong) would deny water to a dehydrated human in front of them.


Just for the sake of clarity, would that include Packoderm and Arrowhead?

The Gull - 1-2-2010 at 09:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
All I know is that when I'm standing in line at the counter of a Panda Express, waiting to order Orange Chicken, I only see Mexicans working the woks in the kitchen. Show me the Chinese outrage.
:P


Go to Sin Lee - they have chinese people.

Why do you eat at a chain craphole like Panda Express? It is worse than Pickup Stix. It is less healthy than McDonald's or Burger King. The barf these two "chinese" franchises sling is not fit for swine.

k-rico - 1-2-2010 at 09:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
As to Hiring Illegals!?

What is the Answer for an Employer who needs Workers!!
The only Workers to be hired are Illegal??

It is true all over"
One of the Reasons for many companies to go overseas.

What is a Local Employer to do if there is not enough Workers..


What is the Answer. ??


That's an argument for a migrant worker program if you are talking about seasonal field laborers working in the border states.

If you're talking about year round jobs in other industries, the employer needs to pay wages that would attract citizens. If the cost precludes making a profit he's out of business.

Making a profit off of illegal alien workers is the fundamental reason most of the 12 million of them are in the US.


[Edited on 1-2-2010 by k-rico]

surebought - 1-2-2010 at 09:31 AM

Wow, People sure have a lot to say about immigration. People in general, I think are polorizing into the Religous Right and everybody else. But there some flaws in this. There sure are a lot of the Religous right down here trying to convert Catholics to their Brand X of Christianism. Once I confronted one with the idea that the converts were really using him to have job contacts in the States when they finally get to gringolandia. Oh, he was fine with that. In Ensenada, the people tend to end up in Santa Maria, California and Cedar City, Utah. If I moved back to one of these cities and opened a restaurant Fish Tacos de Ensenada, I would have lots of customers almost immediately.

Donjulio - 1-2-2010 at 09:39 AM

I think we need to open our borders and our eyes and our hearts. Drop the labels and address the real issue which isn't about legalities or anything but the reality that a "human being" is trying to make a better life for themselves.

It wasn't that many generations ago that our families were the immigrants. Legal or illegal doesnt really matter. They came for a better way of life. Now just because "we were here first" we have some sort of sense of entitlement. BS.

And if an honest business person needs an honest days work done they should have the ability to hire any person willing or qualified to do the job.

All this is based on thoughts of fear, scarcity and lack. Afraid someones going to take something from us. The only one that loses here is us with the judgmental attitudes and racism.

The golden rule doesnt mean do unto others unless they are from another country. And love thy neighbor as thyself as long as his name isn't Juan. It's time the world changes it and it begins right here with us.

k-rico - 1-2-2010 at 09:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Donjulio
I think we need to open our borders and our eyes and our hearts.


You forgot wallets.

Skeet/Loreto - 1-2-2010 at 10:04 AM

k-rico"

You are missing the Point!

There is not anyone out there to Hire!!

They either are at the Mall, on Welfare, and just donot or cannot fill a Employers Job Force.

Can you even imagine a $70 Hour Auto worker losing his job and going to work for $15 an Hour??

wessongroup - 1-2-2010 at 10:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bombero
Wessongroup: May i suggest that before you quote or comment on one,s post, make sure you read it correctly. I stated no one has died of thirst crossing legally. Those who choose the "desert route" are not legally crossing. You read only what you wanted to believe! You chose not to comment on the deaths in the US due to those who crossed "illegally" using the desert. "starving in Fresno" bark off almond trees, have you not heard of wefare, food stamps, wic vouchers, or food banks???????? Perhaps you should open your home and bank account to help solve this crisis in your community!!


Stand corrected for the time being, about the legal's dying of thirsts, as I thought I was commenting on the poor unfounate people who die every year trying to cross a "desert" to get to the land of "oppourtunity" for them and what they get once there.. however, I'm sure I could find at least one, as there must be at least one ... Didn't say they were starving to death in Fresno, and perhaps have you not heard that those services are taking a really big hit in the new budget ... as the State of California.. does not have the money... like the Governor said, "we can't just print it up like the Federal Government does"

As for my "community" right now it's El Pescador in Baja, MX.. and I eat in all the local resturants, buy in the local markets, have had a few of the locals over for coffee and menduo and their dogs... I open my house up and my bank account as much as I can afford.. I also give free advertisement to local folks who need the business, and how about you... you got a web site up, promoting business in Primo Tapia, El Pescador, Rosarito.. contibute to Mexican charity, and to the Amerian Indian Charities.. I don't use the casino's as I can't get around anymore.. but, would if I could... just love to drop a few bucks into their tribal coffers .....

Yeah, I've heard of Wefare, food stamps, vouchers and food banks, have relatives using it right now, and I tell them I'm not paying for it .... I don't agree with it at all...

One should try and plan their lives based on thrift, honesty, hard work and following the Law and Regulations which govern their action within the "State" they live in... even if they don't agree with them... I have and still do... but, getting as far away from the "great sucking" sound that Ross Perout was talking about.. we are on the event horizon and we are going in... I hope we hit hard as I don't want to limp away from the crash site... I'm already limping..

And for reading ones post, I ask the same in return.... "to my knowledge" I have posted direct and to the point of the others post, and put up information to help local business in Baja.. If I miss read, the post I stand corrected.. but, by view on the other stands... I walk the walk... do you???

Just what have you done lately... :):)

Diver - 1-2-2010 at 10:45 AM

Water for those attempting an illegal act ??

Perhaps we should require that all bank interior walls be made of materials that will absorb bullets to ensure that a bank robber who shoots his gun in the bank wouldn't get killed by his own deflected bullets ?


If I wanted to move to New Zealand I would need to have major bucks or they won't let you stay. They are trying to protect their social services system; why do we need to be any different ?

Those wishing to enter the US from Cuba or Haiti need to gain political asylum or they are not welcome. Why do we need to treat these illegal border crossers any differently ?

Those moving to Mexico need an FM2 or FM3 or they can be thrown out at any time with no questions asked. It costs time and $ to get these visas but they are required. And you still can't vote without citizenship. Why should we treat potential new residents any differently ?

I am not unsensitive to the plight of a dehydrated desert traveler but perhaps we should be making the trip appear harder, not easier for these illegals. If we stop them from trying to cross the desert, less will die trying.

The solution is to make work visas easier to get (when needed and with employer verification) and tighten our security at borders and with employer penalties.
Immigration is a good thing but uncontrolled immigration IS leading to major problems for our country.

.

Watering the Illegal

MrBillM - 1-2-2010 at 10:54 AM

Even I would "probably" give a thirsty Illegal a drink of water. Keeping my Pistol handy, just in case.

AND, at the earliest possible opportunity, report him/her/them to Border Enforcement to be rounded up.

The entire argument of ANY "Open Border" proponent is marooonic.

The wide disparity in economic status (which Obama is working hard to bring down to Third-World level) means that we have to do whatever necessary to Minimize the level of immigration. In a country where our LEGAL Unemployment rate is likely to remain above Eight-Ten percent for years to come, we can't allow the influx to continue. IF we actually had an open border, the Exponential increase in those coming North would quickly bring OUR standards down towards those in Mexico.

There is, in addition, the problematic FACT (for Liberals) that our U.S. prison population is stocked with Illegal Aliens at a percentage far above their presence in the population. Clearly, not all of those pitiful characters wandering through the desert are Honest Hard-Workers looking for a Job and a Better life.

Unless, that's a Criminal position they're seeking.

Give Em a Drink and get them Locked up, Shipped Out.

wessongroup - 1-2-2010 at 10:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
k-rico"

You are missing the Point!

There is not anyone out there to Hire!!

They either are at the Mall, on Welfare, and just donot or cannot fill a Employers Job Force.

Can you even imagine a $70 Hour Auto worker losing his job and going to work for $15 an Hour??


Now that is the point, I remember that an effort was made back in the late 70's by the State of California and the "growers" to try and fill jobs in the "Valley" due to Mr. Chavez's very effective boycott of grapes ... this was something that happened more than once... that I recall, for various reasons..

But, could not get one person, off unemployment in the State of California to come work in the "fields" harvesting crops.. not one.. and the State was suppling transportation in Greyhound buses to the work and back home at night to the major urban areas, Los Angeles and the Bay area..

It was also set up for people to come and harvest crops from the fields, after the "first pick", again no takers .....

The work is HARD work, and most people in the United States don't do HARD work, except the very poor... and that's is the way it is and will be..

Everyone wants a $70/hr job putting lug nuts on wheel on a assembly line, but working in the "outdoors" in 110ş with the wind blowing.. not too many takers...

For what it's worth, my Dad picked cabbage in Phoenix AZ in 1933 for .11/hr and was thankful for the work... that was a time, when there was no: food stamps, unemployment, welfare, medicare, anything... kind of like Mexico!!! and the house he lived in hard dirt floors.... with no plumbing..

Ran out of Baja Dog Photos

The Gull - 1-2-2010 at 11:01 AM

Sorry guys - this is best photo I could find in a hurry. This thread is going nowhere. Move on.

ATT00632.jpg - 28kB

wessongroup - 1-2-2010 at 11:03 AM

ditto's

Diver - 1-2-2010 at 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
There is not anyone out there to Hire!!


There are many folks in our area that used to make $100K that would take a job as a $20/hr carpenter or laborer if they could find it.
These are legal citizens of our country and friends of mine.

bombero - 1-2-2010 at 11:29 AM

The quality of life in America was not give to us. Hundreds of thousands of Americans have given their lives in in the defense of our liberities our government and way of live .Our prosperity came with a huge price and is currently ongoing for many of our soldiers now. We ,Americans are the most generous country on earth. Maybe its time for Mexicans to have a "real revolution". Sacrifice as Americans have. Get a government that will help and not hinder. Mexico has the resources, the talented people, and work ethics to be a !st class country and not need handouts from others. I lost my father, friends, and other family members defending our way of life and I,m not to pleased to give it away or share with non citizens. Mexico,s army is not there to protect citizens from invaders, but to protect the government from its citizens. It wont be easy and will be costly but so was ours!

Skeet/Loreto - 1-2-2010 at 11:30 AM

Diver: And do you know why some people are having trouble finding Jobs:

Diver It is because the good State of Washington and especially the Seattle area is getting the "Liberal Tag". Employers are slow to hire as they may "Offend" the Liberal Workers and get a Law Suit.

More Mixed Fruit (and Veggies) ?

MrBillM - 1-2-2010 at 11:35 AM

Apples, Oranges and Lettuce ?

The Chavez-led Union Boycott did NOT involve Illegal Immigrant labor so I'm unsure what someone THINKS they're proving by bringing up that effort.

BTW, the statement that "Not One" person could be found to fill those jobs is incorrect. During part of that time, I was living in Salinas and knew more than one person who DID go to work in the fields, including one of my best-friends at the time.

He DID say it was the hardest job he'd ever done and was happy to get a different job working at a Lumber Yard in Salinas.

A LOT of the inability to find replacement workers for those LEGAL residents in the Union Effort had to do with the usual Union Thuggery. Crossing their lines could be dangerous. Going to the store could be. I crossed many of their lines in front of stores to buy groceries and was harassed at the time.

BTW, when it came to GRAPES, I moved directly from Salinas to Indio and worked in a business dealing with the Grape (and other) growers. There wasn't a single season that they had any problem harvesting the Table Grape crop.

[Edited on 1-2-2010 by MrBillM]

Skeet/Loreto - 1-2-2010 at 11:37 AM

Wessongroup:

Have you seen and heard what the Liberal Nuts" have done with their Fruity deal with the Delta Smelt??

That is why there is such a larger unemployment problem this year in the Central valley.

It is unbeleivable How Nutty the Liberal Envior Nuts can be with their Hollaring about Profit Margins then they do something like the Delta Smelt and wonder "Why did those Big Corp; raise the price of Food???


3rd grade Children know and act better--Sometimes!!

wessongroup - 1-2-2010 at 11:54 AM

Yeah, guess I made the fatal mistake.. use an absolute.. let's just say, your couple of friends did not get the "sections" of crops harvested... and as far as thugs, I saw growers that keep their "field hands" under guard ,in fenced compounds, with dogs and "supervisors" who carried "guns"..

And if you think all those folks in Delano were legal, ... you just made the same mistake I made... an absolute... "The Chavez-led Union Boycott did NOT involve Illegal Immigrant labor" Please.... what planet are you from

Yeah, I know Gull, it's not going anywhere, and I have to get a life... or a different thread

This is old stuff and will never change.. unless... well, can't think of anything which will change...

And I served my county, as did many of my forefathers:first Wesson 1657 in VA as an indentured Slave, fought Revolutionary war, war of 1812, Civil War, Spanish American, First World War, WWII and a few police actions... does not mean we are always right, just that we will go and fight....

This is something I just got from another Nomad, I like it, won't do anything about not getting a SS raise this year Skeet's but, as you are well aware.... things are tuff out there.. heck just try and sell a pice of land in Merced or Madera County...

This could be the answer to unemployment

Due to the current financial situation caused by the slowdown in the economy, Congress has decided to implement a scheme to put workers of 50 years of age and above on early retirement, thus creating jobs and reducing unemployment.

This scheme will be known as RAPE (Retire Aged People Early).

Persons selected to be RAPED can apply to Congress to be considered for the SHAFT program (Special Help After Forced Termination).

Persons who have been RAPED and SHAFTED will be reviewed under the SCREW program (System Covering Retired-Early Workers).

A person may be RAPED once, SHAFTED twice and SCREWED as many times as Congress deems appropriate.

Persons who have been RAPED could get AIDS (Additional Income for Dependents & Spouse) or HERPES (Half Earnings for Retired Personnel Early Severance).

Obviously persons who have AIDS or HERPES will not be SHAFTED or SCREWED any further by Congress.

Persons who are not RAPED and are staying on will receive as much chit (Special High Intensity Training) as possible. Congress has always prided themselves on the amount of chit they give our citizens.

Should you feel that you do not receive enough chit, please bring this to the attention of your Congressman, who has been trained to give you all the chit you can handle.

Sincerely,
The Committee for Economic Value of Individual Lives (E.V.I.L.)

PS - - Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas and oil, as well as current market conditions, the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off.

Thanks to Susan



:):)

[Edited on 1-2-2010 by wessongroup]

Eugenio - 1-2-2010 at 11:58 AM

The majority of mexicans won't work the fields anymore - they are big city folk. The majority of the ones that are willing to work the fields usually come from mexican states way down south or Central America - in fact they have the same problem finding good cheap labor amongst locals in Valle de Fuerte (Sinaloa) and San Quintin(BC).

The big loser in all of this isn't the US - it's Mexico and Central America - which are losing the best of an entire generation of workers and enterprenuers (yeah - along with some of their thugs).
Quote:
Originally posted by toneart

Yes, civil dialog is good and you do maintain that civility, Sir! I appreciate that.:light:


Yeah - well F U too big boy - in fact ucantakeyerfrigintubaandstickitupyerfriggin...oh wait...did you mean that as a compliment?

Gee.

Likewise sir and have a good New Year man.

toneart - 1-2-2010 at 12:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eugenio



Quote:
Originally posted by toneart

Yes, civil dialog is good and you do maintain that civility, Sir! I appreciate that.:light:


Yeah - well F U too big boy - in fact ucantakeyerfrigintubaandstickitupyerfriggin...oh wait...did you mean that as a compliment?

Gee.

Likewise sir and have a good New Year man.


I am not clear as to your intention in this post. Is it meant to be funny?
My statement was definitely sincere and meant to be complimentary. There is enough rancor by malcontents on this board. For me, open dialog without the crap is important. Many people here will disagree with my views but most show the courtesy to counter civilly. Some don't. I am just trying to determine in which category you belong.:?:

Edited to give you an out: Sometimes humor does not come across well in writing. It lacks the aural inflection and the visual validation of the smile or the warmth from within that is shown when looking into one's eyes. You seem to possess writing skills that are adequate enough to know this. This is why I am questioning your intent.

[Edited on 1-2-2010 by toneart]

Eugenio - 1-2-2010 at 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugenio



Quote:
Originally posted by toneart

Yes, civil dialog is good and you do maintain that civility, Sir! I appreciate that.:light:


Yeah - well F U too big boy - in fact ucantakeyerfrigintubaandstickitupyerfriggin...oh wait...did you mean that as a compliment?

Gee.

Likewise sir and have a good New Year man.


I am not clear as to your intention in this post. Is it meant to be funny?
My statement was definitely sincere and meant to be complimentary. There is enough rancor by malcontents on this board. For me, open dialog without the crap is important. Many people here will disagree with my views but most show the courtesy to counter civilly. Some don't. I am just trying to determine in which category you belong.:?:

Edited to give you an out: Sometimes humor does not come across well in writing. It lacks the aural inflection and the visual validation of the smile or the warmth from within that is shown when looking into one's eyes. You seem to possess writing skills that are adequate enough to know this. This is why I am questioning your intent.

[Edited on 1-2-2010 by toneart]


Yeah - it was meant to be funny - sorry for the confusion - sometimes I get overly whacky - I think it's in my genes - cheers man - and thanks for the compliment.
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