BajaNomad

Car Voltage Fluctating Problem - need suggestions

gnukid - 1-5-2010 at 09:50 AM

Hi Motor heads, I really need your suggestions to resolve a problem.

I hit a bump and the battery flew up and crossed terminals against a metal mount. I immediately saw the voltage jack up, turned off the ignition but the motor didn't stop! I popped the hood and the pulled the terminals and saw the problem. I imagine I was frying the system for about 1-2 minutes.

Afterwards, the voltage fluctuated from 12-18v, I changed the voltage regulator, the alternator, the battery and terminals, checked wiring and it calmed down a bit but has progressively worsened and now I am running 15-18v all meters are pinned full. If I turn on the lights or any accessories the voltage jacks up off the charts?

Motor 351 ford/motor is running normally
Carburated
MSD electronic ignition
new battery/terminals/alternator and regulator

Ideas please???

I can only guess a short has occured but where and how or MSD is fried but how do I know? Thanks for any suggestions.

monoloco - 1-5-2010 at 10:08 AM

Gnu, Try some Ford forums. When I have problems with my truck I use the Powerstroke forums and get all kinds of good advice. You will find a lot of techs willing to help you.

arrowhead - 1-5-2010 at 10:37 AM

It would have helped if you stated the year and model of the car. If it settled down and then went up again, I'm guessing you did not get a new alternator and regulator, but rebuilt ones. Check them again. High voltage usually means the voltage regulator is commanding the alternator to increase its output because it senses a large current drain somewhere. A shorted diode on the alternator is your first place to look.

bajabass - 1-5-2010 at 10:45 AM

If the MSD was fried the engine would not run. If you have a remote starter solenoid replace it. Check all fusable links between the battery, solenoid and starter. Sounds like a shorted solenoid, or fusable link has has melted to a ground. Also try pulling fuses and circuit breakers as you watch the voltmeter. If you disconnect a fuse or breaker, and the voltage drops to a normal 12.5 to 13.7, the draw is on that circuit. Good luck, I hate electrical. That's why I own a alignment shop.

Voltage Regulation

MrBillM - 1-5-2010 at 10:59 AM

A proper functioning System Voltage control, whether a distinct Regulator on older models or a port on the system computer will NEVER allow a Charging voltage above approx 14.5 volts. If, in fact, the guage readings are correct, the problem MUST be a function of THAT control circuit.

Since the specific method of voltage regulation varies widely with Make, Model and Year, a generic solution isn't possible. As mentioned, a Forum search with specific information on the vehicle involved would be a good (and cheap) initial resource.

I've lost count of the number of customer cars that were brought to me AFTER they had replaced EVERYTHING and still had a charging problem and the reasons were myriad.

gnukid - 1-5-2010 at 11:06 AM

Okay thanks guys,

The vehicle is '85 Ford Bronco with 351 windsor motor (I know this isn't a favorite).

I will accept the MSD isn't failing since the motor runs perfectly. It must be a short of some sort.

I understand from your suggestions I should try replacing the starter solenoid (though I don't understand how this relates) and check for a fused wire, I will pull fuses and keep trying.

The wipers stopped working at this point, which is something to consider. I'll keep looking for actual failures.

The nice thing is I love hanging with my mechanics and they love weird problems, so it gives me a reason to hang out for a while and keep trying. I really love this car, its never failed. Nice to have a a backup vehicle with my Mopar '65 slant six 225 which never fails in the brecha.

Thanks alot.

gnukid - 1-5-2010 at 11:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
It would have helped if you stated the year and model of the car. If it settled down and then went up again, I'm guessing you did not get a new alternator and regulator, but rebuilt ones. Check them again. High voltage usually means the voltage regulator is commanding the alternator to increase its output because it senses a large current drain somewhere. A shorted diode on the alternator is your first place to look.


I did get brand new ones and I took the old ones out and had them tested, they tested out fine but I still replaced them with new and tested products. We have an Autozone in La Paz which has pretty much put an end to rebuilds unless you buy rebuilt, but new is so cheap. The new factory alternator is about $38 and the regulator about $10 I have tried three new regulators so far. Thanks

toneart - 1-5-2010 at 12:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabass
If the MSD was fried the engine would not run. If you have a remote starter solenoid replace it. Check all fusable links between the battery, solenoid and starter. Sounds like a shorted solenoid, or fusable link has has melted to a ground. Also try pulling fuses and circuit breakers as you watch the voltmeter. If you disconnect a fuse or breaker, and the voltage drops to a normal 12.5 to 13.7, the draw is on that circuit. Good luck, I hate electrical. That's why I own a alignment shop.


I am no electrical wizard, but this sounds feasible to me.

landyacht318 - 1-5-2010 at 02:39 PM

I know that on the pre '87 dodges, when replacing the voltage regulator, The battery must be disconnected and the case of the voltage regulator grounded before rehooking the battery. I read how one guy kept claiming to get faulty regulators, until he read the directions, saying it must be grounded first. When it failed the voltage was soaring like yours.

I don't know if this applies to a Ford.

Good luck, nothing like electrical gremlins to drive one to drink.

desertcpl - 1-5-2010 at 04:02 PM

I will drink to that

Change Everything

MrBillM - 1-5-2010 at 04:54 PM

At some point, you have to stumble across the problem.

Having worked on many vehicles where they had replaced everything they could think of, usually purchased from me before giving up and bringing the car in, I was often confronted with the "then, I didn't need all of this stuff ". Forestalling what I KNEW was coming next, I always replied, "Yeah, I'd be really irritated with that mechanic" which never failed to work.

It didn't matter, anyway. They just went back and charged the customer for it all.

rzitren - 1-5-2010 at 06:30 PM

I assume you have Charging system with an external voltage regulator. The regulator has 4 terminals on it labeled I A S and F. It controls the output of the alternator by sending power out the F terminal. The more power out the F terminal , the higher the voltage. It uses the A terminal as a reference voltage much like a speedometer is used to determine the speed of a car. The regulator must have a good ground on the mounting screws and also a good ground to the negative side of the battery or it could overcharge.. I would check the grounds from the battery as they may have burned when the battery moved. Let me know.
Rick

bajabass - 1-7-2010 at 12:56 PM

Any luck with the problem yet? Curious:light:

wessongroup - 1-7-2010 at 01:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rzitren
I assume you have Charging system with an external voltage regulator. The regulator has 4 terminals on it labeled I A S and F. It controls the output of the alternator by sending power out the F terminal. The more power out the F terminal , the higher the voltage. It uses the A terminal as a reference voltage much like a speedometer is used to determine the speed of a car. The regulator must have a good ground on the mounting screws and also a good ground to the negative side of the battery or it could overcharge.. I would check the grounds from the battery as they may have burned when the battery moved. Let me know.
Rick


thanks for about the simplest explanation and a traceable route for repair for this kind of problem :):)

gnukid - 1-7-2010 at 02:37 PM

Working on this crazy problem, though it seems I need more hands, one to rev the motor and turn on/off accerssories, one to check the voltage, one to grab at cables and one to hold the pacifico. Argh! Going for more pacifico... So odd.

Sharksbaja - 1-7-2010 at 02:39 PM

I'm interested. Did you replace the batt after it shorted? Does it take a full charge and hold it? It may be that simple. It's possible the batt is shorted and unable to charge thereby demanding a huge amount of current.

[Edited on 1-7-2010 by Sharksbaja]

gnukid - 1-7-2010 at 02:49 PM

No I didn't change the battery afterward, actually just before, and I failed to mount it properly which caused it to jump and cross terminals. Aha! Hmmm Okay, let me check!

surfer jim - 1-7-2010 at 03:35 PM

First post said you changed battery and terminals....this is one of those "trick" questions like teachers used to give for a test!:P

bajabass - 1-7-2010 at 03:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by surfer jim
First post said you changed battery and terminals....this is one of those "trick" questions like teachers used to give for a test!:P
Right you are. Disconnect battery cables. Voltage at battery should be 12.5 - 13.5 volts with a full charge. If you shorted a cell in the battery, the regulator will tell alternator to CHARGE! Add in additional accessory loads and the thing will charge like Hades. Just as if you had a short to ground.

bajabass - 1-7-2010 at 03:51 PM

Yeah, just like Sharksbaja said.

gnukid - 1-7-2010 at 05:36 PM

Okay three questions

1) If the battery is holding a charge correctly as it appears it is, could it still be sending incorrect info and therefore worth replacing or trying another battery?

2) If I want to test the 4 connections to the voltage regulator, how do I properly remove the ground cable and then how do I access the connectors to the regulator while its running? Those steps aren't super obvious to me?

3) Worse yet, I added some water to the battery, I hit everything with a hammer and at the moment the fluctuations are minor 12.6-14.5v Now I need to head to the brecha and punch it over a ump to recreate the problem-or am I supposed to drink more pacifico-not sure.

Sharksbaja - 1-7-2010 at 05:48 PM

I would put a fully charged batt in there and see what happens. It shouldn't be necessary to do anything to the volt reg and alt if they are new. Just wiggle the connections to make sure they are making good contact.

rts551 - 1-7-2010 at 06:37 PM

"If the battery is holding a charge correctly as it appears it is, could it still be sending incorrect info and therefore worth replacing or trying another battery?"


Yes. have the parts guys test it with a load tester

wessongroup - 1-7-2010 at 07:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Okay three questions

1) If the battery is holding a charge correctly as it appears it is, could it still be sending incorrect info and therefore worth replacing or trying another battery?

2) If I want to test the 4 connections to the voltage regulator, how do I properly remove the ground cable and then how do I access the connectors to the regulator while its running? Those steps aren't super obvious to me?

3) Worse yet, I added some water to the battery, I hit everything with a hammer and at the moment the fluctuations are minor 12.6-14.5v Now I need to head to the brecha and punch it over a ump to recreate the problem-or am I supposed to drink more pacifico-not sure.


I vote for 3... if you got her running and it starts, keep the hammer close by and get a 18 pack:):)

landyacht318 - 1-7-2010 at 07:39 PM

14.5 volts is too high, if the battery is fully charged. 14.5 volts and a fully charged battery will boil away the water.

Only distilled water should be added to a battery. Tap water shortens life, drastically, especially if there are many minerals in it.

If it is below 80% charged, 14.5 is an excellent number. 12.6 is too low unless it is idling with all the lights on and stereo cranked and a depleted battery.

BTW, If a vehicle needs to be jumped because the battery is dead, it will take 5 to 8 hours of driving (not idling) to bring it up to 100% State Of Charge, depending on the vehicles charging system and the health of the battery.
The last 20% take as much time as 30% to 80% does.

A battery will start your vehicle at only 35 to 40% SOC or less, but this is very unhealthy for the battery. For maximum battery life you want a battery to always be as close to fully charged as possible.
So if you need to jump it, later, when you can, hook a battery charger to it. Do not rely on the alternator to do so unless your driving hundreds of miles in the daytime or you simply enjoy spending money on a new battery every year.

If it is still fluctuating rapidly, I think is's possible you have a loose engine ground. Check that the black(-) wire which runs from the battery to somewhere on the engine is clean shiny and tight. There should also be a firewall ground, and an engine to frame ground as well. Making sure all these are clean and tight, as well as the battery connections themselves can eliminate many of the evil electrical gremlins, but by all means, go swill some Pacificos. I am partaking of some Modelo Negro while visiting family in Ice cold Florida right now.

arrowhead - 1-7-2010 at 11:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
No I didn't change the battery afterward, actually just before, and I failed to mount it properly which caused it to jump and cross terminals. Aha! Hmmm Okay, let me check!


Hey, you said you changed the battery in your first post, or else I would have said to look there first. A dead cell or high internal resistance can cause the voltage problems you are seeing.

gnukid - 1-8-2010 at 08:37 AM

Yep, okay. This helps, I confused myself regarding the order of events since they were so close together-which is helpful. In my head I heard a voice of an old man throughout this, "Ah, Probably needs a battery" even though I knew I just bought one. Lets see how it plays out today.

Batteries-the great mystery of baja.

gnukid - 1-8-2010 at 01:13 PM

Well I went to autozone who kindly checked the systems under various load and all checked out correctly, I talked them in replacing the battery anyway, since all parts are new, for no charge and with no receipt. they are amazingly kind there. We installed it carefully, tested it-all checked okay within normal ranges. Afterwards, with the new battery installed carefully and the terminals super clean and tight, grounds carefully terminated-the problem was the worse yet when driving 12.6-18v.

When the RPMs up under load with accerssories on and close to 3000RPM the voltage shoots up and is pinned at above 15volts sometimes hitting 17-18v. When the idle comes down to 1500, all systems are fine but voltage is fluctuating abnormally.

I'll keep at it.

arrowhead - 1-8-2010 at 02:22 PM

You know, it may just be your voltage meter. It may have been damaged. Get a good digitcal volt-ohm meter and put it across the battery terminals, then observe the voltage under the various loads and compare it to the readings of your voltage meter. The way voltage metesr works -- it does not actually read voltage. It has a precision resister in series with it and it reads the current. If that resister was damaged, the range of the meter will be off.

gnukid - 1-9-2010 at 04:32 PM

I have used a variety of professional voltage meters, my father insists I carry one, under load at higher RPM e.g. 3k and/or with any accessories on, the voltage will jack up and stay at 15-18v. Also when driving almost always the dash lights are pulsing a bit which was the first sympton I noticed and it has persisted though it does seem to go away at moments, the radio won't stay on for long either nor plays CDs now etc... Other symptoms at 3500rpm are all gauges will go to full, incorrectly, the temp reads hot off the charts even though it just started, the oil pressure is off the chart, etc probably the voltage meter is not reading correctly either as it is pinned off the charts too. When the idle comes down the meter readings come down.

I will keep at it. I am sure that a fused wire, fuse or ground, or diode is at fault. Its a mess.

Here's a photo of the regulator which seems to have a diode attached to the ground which seems reasonable to replace next? There is a starter relay there too.

I have not replaced the starter solenoid as suggested yet?



[Edited on 1-9-2010 by gnukid]

rts551 - 1-9-2010 at 04:43 PM

noise suppressor

rzitren - 1-9-2010 at 06:05 PM

If you can get to a phone and give me a phone number I can walk you thru checking your system. I own an Auto Electric shop and can probably solve your problem in a few minutes. If not send me an email and we will try to solve it that way.
Rick

landyacht318 - 1-9-2010 at 06:45 PM

Take Rzitren up on his offer! The rest of us are guessing.
quote
"""Other symptoms at 3500rpm are all gauges will go to full, incorrectly, the temp reads hot off the charts even though it just started, the oil pressure is off the chart, etc probably the voltage meter is not reading correctly either as it is pinned off the charts too. When the idle comes down the meter readings come down.""

This has happened to me when the firewall ground visibly appeared good, until I took it off and cleaned it.

This above fluctuations also happened to me when the Enn ESS A (phonetic) was activating my cell phone's microphone from afar. Luckily my tin foil hat keeps them from reading my mind.
Not that they'd find anything.
Where's my beer.

But seriously, in some areas, while driving, 1 to 2 seconds before my cell phone would ring, my temperature and oil pressure gauges would skyrocket.

So the noise suppression post might have some merit

[Edited on 1-10-2010 by landyacht318]

[Edited on 1-10-2010 by landyacht318]

ANALyzing

MrBillM - 1-9-2010 at 07:08 PM

In those olden days back when, I often had customers call up with long detailed descriptions of their perplexing Electrical problems. After listening for awhile, I would say (in varying words) "Look, can you put the phone up close to the engine so I can get a better idea of what's going on" ?

To which they'd reply, "but you can't see anything". I'd then say "That's Right. Bring the car in".

[Edited on 1-10-2010 by MrBillM]

gnukid - 1-10-2010 at 11:16 AM

Thanks for the notes, today I will go at each circuit though its hard to do without cooperation and today is Sunday.

I will take off the chassis ground and clean it up and put it back as I suspect this is likely a source of a probelm. Also I like simple solutions.

I will also write to rtzien.

So frustrating that after so many years of hoping for higher voltage, now my brand new battery is showing 12.8 charged and the car jacks up when driving-only its too high. It makes me think if I only add more lights and bigger stereo it will all balance out.

I do have other even older cars here including my '65 which always runs so its not the end of the world for now-I have time-and besides what else would I be doing in baja except playing with old cars.

Here's a '55 I am working on back home with a neighbor friend... not mine belair but a classic baja nomad done right for future trips. I like to pull up to the most expensive hotel in Cabo and park right in the lobby-while the staff salutes ha!






[Edited on 1-10-2010 by gnukid]

gnukid - 1-10-2010 at 12:56 PM

Checked all fuses, ground terminals removed and cleaned again. Voltage too high problem ~15-18v exists under load with acc and idle up. Voltage only slightly high at low idle in the 13v range. Though seems like rapid fluctuation is generally not occurring now as before lights seem solid at idle, except volts climb as associated with acc and idle. Now I a have a super clean 18v system that my racing buddies think is great-local racing mechanics/drivers are still asking and so what's the problem?

I did find $400 pesos in my work pants so I figure I am way up and quitting soon. I will go to the professionals now, Nomad Rick and the local mechanics mentioned earlier in the thread and see if they have any luck. I hope I haven't lost my bronco loco. Thank you for your excellent suggestions. Have fun.

gnukid - 1-10-2010 at 01:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by landyacht318
I know that on the pre '87 dodges, when replacing the voltage regulator, The battery must be disconnected and the case of the voltage regulator grounded before rehooking the battery. I read how one guy kept claiming to get faulty regulators, until he read the directions, saying it must be grounded first. When it failed the voltage was soaring like yours.

I don't know if this applies to a Ford.

Good luck, nothing like electrical gremlins to drive one to drink.


I think I'll try changing the regulator as you mention again. It is a voltage problem. doh.

wessongroup - 1-10-2010 at 07:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
In those olden days back when, I often had customers call up with long detailed descriptions of their perplexing Electrical problems. After listening for awhile, I would say (in varying words) "Look, can you put the phone up close to the engine so I can get a better idea of what's going on" ?

To which they'd reply, "but you can't see anything". I'd then say "That's Right. Bring the car in".

[Edited on 1-10-2010 by MrBillM]


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

vacaenbaja - 1-11-2010 at 02:13 AM

See If there is a capacitor that connects from B+ to ground in order to pass some AC component to ground. Look for a leaky or shorted capacitor. Use a ammeter
to see if you have corresponding current fluctuations.
Then isolate the cicuit that is drawing the excessive current.

Sharksbaja - 1-11-2010 at 02:35 AM

Yeah, I see an old condenser there in that photo. Is that for your distributer or is it for noise suppression? That should be easy, hust unplug it while the car is running.

Oh, remember when you said the motor kept running after you turned off the ignition? What did you do to correct that problem.

I remember one time a customer(when I was a mech) had a similar prob. It turned out the amp/volt gauge ballast resistor was fried.

You can check that visually by looking at the backside of the gauge if in fact your vehicle does have a 4 lead non-solidstate regulator. That pic is not very concise. It's hard to tell if it's an OEM product.

If your batt is currently fully charged, why do your peers(lugnut friend) think 18v output IS a good thang????:?:

SKIDS - 1-11-2010 at 06:29 AM

GLOBAL WARMING !!!

wessongroup - 1-11-2010 at 07:11 AM

The knowledge base on this board is simply amazing... I only wished I had this a number of years back.. would have saved a lot on shop manuals along with other parts which I didn't need ...:):)

[Edited on 1-11-2010 by wessongroup]

gnukid - 1-11-2010 at 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Yeah, I see an old condenser there in that photo. Is that for your distributor or is it for noise suppression? That should be easy, hust unplug it while the car is running.

Ok I'll try,
Quote:


Oh, remember when you said the motor kept running after you turned off the ignition? What did you do to correct that problem.

I popped the hood and pulled the terminals off. Then I reconnected them. The short had occurred because my mechanic had welded a battery mount which was not attached properly having just put in the battery, replacing one which was stolen.
Quote:



I remember one time a customer(when I was a mech) had a similar prob. It turned out the amp/volt gauge ballast resistor was fried.

Ok I'll try,
Quote:


You can check that visually by looking at the backside of the gauge if in fact your vehicle does have a 4 lead non-solidstate regulator. That pic is not very concise. It's hard to tell if it's an OEM product.

I have tried a few regulators they are from autozone and I believe Mexican OEM.
Quote:

If your batt is currently fully charged, why do your peers(lugnut friend) think 18v output IS a good thang????:?:


These guys are just crazy, they are not mechanic apparently.

landyacht318 - 1-16-2010 at 10:39 AM

Bump.

What happened? Did you get it fixed?

Don't leave us hanging.

gnukid - 1-16-2010 at 11:07 AM

Still no luck, but I took a break. I am planning the proper voltage regulator install, again. That is, remove the Battery Ground terminal, then remove the Regulator, clean all Regulator Terminals and Chassis Ground, then install the new factory Voltage Regulator, attach the terminals and then reconnect the Battery Ground.

I am hoping that might help, though I am not optimistic.... I'll report in afterwards. By the way, perhaps like some of you, I have a fear of not having a functioning car in Baja so I like to have more than one, but its hard to drive two cars at once, though I have tried, I have ask traveling european girls to drive my second car to overcome my fears of the brecha, to have more than one car to rely on, the other being a 1965 mopar ride that doesn't fail, so I am happy now with a swedish co-pilot and having fun in the brecha.

gnukid - 1-20-2010 at 12:36 PM

Problem solved: $7

After replacing the regulator and starter solenoid again and cleaning all connections, the problem persisted so I headed over to the mechanic noted earlier, I didn't find them but I found Medina's Jr on Gomez Farias y Tuparam tel 122-6785 or cell 612-153-6938

Julio Cesar looked at the motor with key on only he heard an uncertain click and diagnosed the problem in 3 seconds, an incomplete ground, he replaced the cable entirely, fixed the problem entirely and sent me on my way in about 5 minutes cost $7 parts and labor.

So, credit goes to just about everyone here too who also diagnosed the problem though I failed to simply replace the whole cable tierra which is a fix for just about every problem in Baja.

Awesome to have so many great helpers here and in in La Paz who love a problem. Now, I have a perfectly running off-road machine, kayak and paddles loaded, heading to the Brecha, looking for problems.

Thanks to everyone for your diagnostic encouragement!

bajabass - 1-20-2010 at 02:29 PM

Hey, I thought you said you had replaced the cables? Did you just use a cheap clamp-on replacement terminal?

Sharksbaja - 1-20-2010 at 02:40 PM

Oh good grief....... :lol: I guess you found yourself a new mech!:yes:

Congratulations

MrBillM - 1-20-2010 at 03:38 PM

IF it had been a newer vehicle, I would have long ago suggested a solution I came up with years ago for a vehicle with unending problems, BUT a really good Blue-Book value.

It involved a lot less time and effort than apparently expended here.

TMW - 1-20-2010 at 05:11 PM

I had an odd problem once with my 1991 chevy 4x4 pickup. In 2003 we were coming out from Gonzaga to hwy 1 and when we got on the hwy 1 the battery light came on and the volt meter was acting up. It would stop and be OK and then start up again on an intermittent basis. When we got to GN I had the alternator rebuilt. On the road it acted up again. I thought when I get home I'd have the chevy drealer look at it. after crossing the border it acted OK for a couple of months until I crossed into Baja again. On crossing back into the US all was well until one day I was in the mountains east of Bakersfield on a dirt road and noticed that when I went left the battery light would come on and the meter would act up. When I went right it didn't. I was thinking hard about it and it came to me that the battery cable was long and had slack in it near the battery. So I had a friend look at the insrtument panel and I moved the cable back and forth and sure enough the light would come on. The cable had an in line fuse link and the connection was bad. Replacing the cable fixed it.

gnukid - 1-20-2010 at 05:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabass
Hey, I thought you said you had replaced the cables? Did you just use a cheap clamp-on replacement terminal?


Yes I replaced the terminals and the cables but my mechanic added a new ground because mine was grounded to the motor and he felt the motor was not grounded well to chassis? I guess-it all happened to fast, so this additional ground to chassis-two ground cables from the battery to chassis fixed my problem. I'm replying from mountain top now! All good-pizza party tonight.

bajabass - 1-20-2010 at 05:30 PM

Glad you got it fixed Gnukid!

Yeah!!!

estebanis - 1-20-2010 at 05:44 PM

I have been watching this thread. The ol' flaky ground syndrome!
Esteban

gnukid - 1-20-2010 at 06:18 PM

Yeah I would say that adding a chassis ground to battery would solve almost all problems in mexico-yep all of them. I am so happy! Nothing like a old time 4x4 that works like always-FYI the Ford was never a problem. Ford pre-90 is still number one in Baja! Gano en la brecha!

[Edited on 1-21-2010 by gnukid]