Open pit gold mines

I am just getting acquainted with this issue.

http://mexidata.info/id2510.html

Comparing Agriculture to mining is not a fair comparison... but, agree with your conclusion... folks will get pretty darn hungry without our production of Food and Fiber here in the United States...

Hate to see the small guys continuing to go out... the family farm was the heart of our Country, we lose something when they go away and are replace by Cargill and others..

Think we just can't imagine the "scale" of operations that are employed currently, compared to a number of years ago..

I think the scale of operations might be a fair comparison .... But the intent of their operations are quite different, one removes land and/or minerals the other harvest a renewable product which is grown for that purpose...

Yep, pretty clever analogy!

Hang them all !!

Really funny, just struck me that really good "chronic" I hear and/or read is going for $600 and oz.. I really don't know, I can't afford those kinds of prices.. thinking about those days in college in the 60's $10 lids..

But, it is really amazing that "gold" would only be $400 hundred more an oz.. and considering the amount of work which must be accomplished to produce on ounce of gold.. and compared to the weed, which can just grows out there in "mother nature" not hurting anything.. bees use it, birds use it, and you can make other products from it and from what is being published in many of the Medical Journals today.. seems that there is really sound medical evidence that there are applications to be found for the human body.. not even to mention that THC is already found in the brain as a precursor to many function to keep our bodies within a certain "endocrine balance" from a physiological and/or biochemical standpoint ..

Too bad, the plant doesn't kick off a little gold dust.. now what kind of problems would that create....

Always like Wanda Sykes line about "selling everything and putting it all in weed, as weed never goes down in price" lol:

Butte, Montana. Toxic water. Kills waterfowl. And it's not getting any better. The downstream watershed has many, many visible toxic patches of land. Thunderstorms washing over the land cause die-offs of trout and other fish. Millions and millions have been spent, and continue to be spent, cleaning up, with no end in sight. Courtesy of Montana taxpayers. But not for this pit; here, they can't even begin to figure what to do.



Bet I can find this without a GPS. This is no quaint 1849 tunnel in the ground.

A lot of folks really don't understand the scope of the problems which develop... there is evidence that large scale movement is occurring of many materials all the way to the Pacific Ocean from various operations which have been left due to a number of reasons.

As is Baja, the United States was at one time.. few people, but with many natural resources to "develop"

It's sad to see the legacy which has been left to clean up, if possible. In to many cases, blend and bury, or just bury in drums with areas lined and placed in locations which are deemed to be "safe" for this type of remediation.

Occasionally a new technology pops up which can "help" but once again you are faced with a "scale" of cleanup that overwhelms the technology... and the budget of City, State and Federal Governments to conduct the clean up efforts, especially after 10-15 years in the courts with all the Lawyers getting paid first .... it's a no go... someone said let's hang them... not a half bad idea.. I've got some rope...

[Edited on 1-26-2010 by wessongroup]

Ralph... one of these days you might understand me and the purpose of some of my posts... You missed it in this thread amigo!

Thinking and knowledge should be for all the people, not just the elites in government!

Open pit gold mines

From the link in the original post

John,

I don't want to sound rude, but haven't you been here in the area for just over a year? many posters here have ten times or more years under their belt and KNOW for a fact and from experience, the way things are. You seem to base your opinions on very limited knowledge, choosing to ignore people who actually have sources in the industry and goverment.

So heres my response to your awnsers:

1.-The Mexican you know, considering your limited time here, are not a reliable example of the feelings of the general population.

2.-Gringos do count, they pay their taxes too.

3.-Wrong again, companies like that have a history here in Baja, and they almost always bring employees from other states. We want jobs for Baja Californians, not Mexicans from other states, but perhaps, you where not aware of that.

4.- This is a pretty big assumption based on what? do you know any other projects? do you know the way things are done in Mexico? do you know the history of corruption and destruction of the environment in Mexico?

5.-They SEEM is something pulled out from the air. Who seems? your Mexican friends? may i suggest you base your opinion on what politicians think, what the newspapers say, what the environmental groups think, what the laws actually say, and finally, what only many many years of living in Mexico and knowing people all over town express.

By the way, your sources are bogus.

Enforcement of ...... ??

Audiobaja, no one can say you don't "stick to your guns"

And your position on the reality of how it "works" is sadly on point..

I had put up just the other day.. a "Press Release" (check the date) and I think your in the position of "shoot the messenger" at this point.. as it would appear a direction on the development of Baja has already been made.. marching order have already been issued

Don't think many disagree with the reality of what you are saying, rather many just hate to see it happen, as I except you do also..



Again all views are necessary to achieve a balanced understanding of all risks and rewards associated with a certain "political" decision

[Edited on 1-26-2010 by wessongroup]

gold mines

Enquiring minds want to know!

Black Elk Speaks, Wasichus in the Hills

I give up Just cannot post pics!! Maybe Acuity will give us a few to show the festivities in TS today. A show of opposition to the mine. Locals organized quite a rally. Apparently going on all evening.

Quote:

Originally posted by Marie-Rose I give up Just cannot post pics!! Maybe Acuity will give us a few to show the festivities in TS today. A show of opposition to the mine. Locals organized quite a rally. Apparently going on all evening.

Marie Rose... if the photos are on your PC, then you can post... One way is to make a duplicate photo file, and reduce the file size to under 50 kbs. BUT, you can only photo one per post on Nomad, using the BROWSE button.

OR, save you photos on a photo hosting site, like the FREE http://www.photobucket.com site manu of us here use. Where you upload the photos from your computer to photobucket is where you choose the reduced size... Pick 15" or Large for the biggest to show WITHOUT stretching the Nomad page wide (as the 17" or 1 meg does).

Then from the IMG url which is below all the photos on photobucket, use your mouse to copy and paste the url here on Nomad seperated by a couple spaces and or some text describing the photo.

May the FORCE be with you!

[Edited on 1-27-2010 by David K]

Photos of rally, Todos Santos

Just for MR

and another

.. and yet another

I don't see many Grey Ponytail Hippies.

... and for entertainment - also in the parade

Following the parade was a set of speeches and performances - they continue through the night

AMD Solutions

If it were only that easy...

Thanks k-rico, it helps point out the scope a bit better.. and was the issue I was referring too earlier

It is one thing to come up with a remedational technology, but the implementation on the scale we are talking about is the real problem.. would also point out that this Company is making a living selling remediation of negatively impacted sites.

Met a guy a number of years back that had stumbled onto a shallow groundwater remediation technology for "solvents" specifically TCE, PCE and their breakdown compounds .. He had run in to the solution in Canada..

His initial project was to clean up a very large area of contamination from years of industrial operations, which had impacted the soil and therefore the groundwater and had a really large "plume" of solvents working there way off site and into the groundwater and ultimately into the water shed of Niagara Falls.. what he found was amazing.. when the plume passed under a "auto wrecking yard, where complete shredding took place" the plume once on the other side was no more.

Come to find out, that the FE (Iron) particles which were also contaminants in their own right were working their way down to the water also, but when in contact with the solvents they were "breaking down" the molecules of the solvents into H2O..

He had done many studies all were positive, but the technology was limited in it's application due as it was limited to overall shallow water depth.. which is a limited type of application, in the world or remediation.

He did find a location which fit the bill.. Eastern Europe.. Shallow water and unbelievable contamination from years of illegal discharge by Industry and the Russian Military..

It was quite simple to set up.. Just sink barriers to channel the water flow like "wire" or center point.. Then run the flow through FE shaving with monitoring stations on the other side to insure effective treatment..

He ended up moving his whole Company to Poland and was quite successful there.. Here in the States.. EPA was not sure that they were happy with his research, and the large remediation Companies and attorneys involved in remediation didn't like it, as it was cheap and easy, so they "dis" it.. And it could not get off the ground here on the North American continent ...

Just one example of technology, and some problems you run into. And when you start talking about the WESTERN UNITED STATES.. You talking really big remediation, and then your talking really big money which = POLITICS.. Which then means.... you guessed it... not much but money being spend with little accomplished..

Think that is why many would just rather not see it start, as the end point is not pretty nor cheap to deal with..
One other thing, this is just from mining, there are other contaminates (radioactive) to name just one.. and they are all heading for the Pacific Ocean via ground water and the rivers.. think all you have heard about Mercury in fish..

And the issues of monetary demand really don't enter into the discussion of site remediation.. other than from a real estate "value" stand point.. It only gets Legs when it becomes a Public Health issue and has immediate threath to the Health of the Public .. like the people start getting sick ... then there is some type of action.. to address the issue, kinda of like Katrina down in LA.. now don't you feel safe..

Good luck getting it back to where it was, worked on these vary issues for many years.. as have others here on the Nomads..

The understanding of wants vs needs is an issue which is coming at the world rather quickly, one way or the other it must be dealt with..

Really good subject, glad to have so many with views on same.. also glad the thread continues.. as the problems we must deal with do not go away either

Quote:

Originally posted by audiobaja Interesting stuff. I feel expertish now Still, a lot of the risk has to do with the environment and geology, so the risks are site specific. But as the say, the *real* problem here is demand. With the price of gold at over $1000/ounce, it's coming out of the ground. Which means either a), we need the economy to rebound and make buying gold seem silly and/or b) convince eco-hippy women to sell their gold and replace it with jewelry that isn't environmentally risky. If you recycle massive amounts of gold back into the system, you'll drop the demand and the price. Get it back to 2001 levels or even close and the mine goes away. Either way, as a guy who's entire collection of gold is in my super cheap wedding ring, I'm doing my part, while remaining out of the politics of it. But if you're one of those folks with a whole bunch of jewelry and/or a portfolio with lots of gold in it, your part of the problem, not part of the solution, no matter how many petitions you sign. And even if this mine is stopped, another will pop up somewhere else. Same reason that the cartel problem in Mexico will exist until US either legalizes drugs or jails everyone with an appetite for it.

open pit gold mines

The EPA web site has all the info necessary, although a bit buried, about the tax payer money used to "clean up" or contain to perpetuity the super fund sites.

In a lot of cases, more money than by the mining profits. More money than the temporary unsustainable jobs (payroll) they provide. Some sort of corp. welfare?

We can always print more money

http://epa.gov/superfund/

David, don't think anyone was suggesting conversion of iron to gold.. nor that the mining of gold should be totally abandoned, rather that any mining project should be undertaken with full disclosure of all factors evaluated that may pose health and/or environmental risk.. and to insure that the measures outlined and adopted for a project would effective mitigate these risks to a reasonable and acceptable level, based on sound investigation and review of same.

There are needs for minerals, among other materials, which are necessary to provide all with comfort and security, and it seems this issue was about weather appropriate measures have been implemented in the design phase to insure no concerns would arise durning and/or after the operations conclude.

The balance of environmental concerns vs the use of resources is but one part of the story, the other is what to do with "issues" that are left upon the termination of the "project".

A town with no tax base to provide for its infrastructure, ... used to call them "ghost towns".. kind of like some around here that took off on "real estate" and now that is gone.. the doors are closing and windows boarding up.. not exactly the same, but the end results is about the same.

This is not my Country, but if by discussion of the down sides of mining operations might prevent some of the issues which exist in the United States from less than prudent planning by Industry on the use of natural resources, what the big woof in sharing experience and knowledge with all??

It seems that all posts here are just to try and point up the problems associated with natural resources development, be it gold, real estate, tuna pens..

I'm truly amazed at the depth of knowledge base that exists here on the Nomads.. from good booze, to sand craps, to expert photography, to maps about lost Mission in the Baja..

To me it's all good, and hope we don't lose one thought on any issue.. it's all good.. Dennis putting up apologies to links to what's her name.. to Woooosh going to a Press Conference in Rosarito....

This is better than any TV program.. and with no commercials.. it just doesn't get any better than this.. and for me.. I'm laid up from a bunch of stuff, if I were not, I would be outside fishing, walking on the beach, taking pictures, too old and messed up to use a boogie board, or even a old "long board" we used to used back in the early sixties.. hell digging clams if I could.. anything.. there is so much to do here, compared to the States... Oh, there I go, I'm talking it up again.. no, no, no.. it's dangerous, you'll be shot, I've got a purple sore on my arm.. my hair is starting to fall out.. DON'T COME TO BAJA.. you will die.. this place is great and all I think just want to take care of it.. I don't see people throwing trash on the roads, or streets, not even cigarettes butts.. OOP's there I go again... no, it's filthy here, absolutely filthy have to wash 10 times a day.. it's God awful.. Oh, I wish I could go home.. oh, me oh my what can I do..

Just keep the gold dust out of your eyes.. and the yellow metal does seem to drive the Wasichus crazy!!

not so

And Ken I left it open for someone to point out that glaring omission, and I also said "exactly" and thank you.

I did not dismiss the technology, only stated that is their business.. And I'm aware of your posts on this and other topics.. if you thought I was dismissing your post and/or the technology, you are incorrect and I'm sorry if that was the impression I gave.. as I have stated repeatedly, I think the contributions of all here are really quite unbelievable in the most positive way possible, it's all good information to help make sense out of a difficult situation, providing food fiber, goods and service and not leaving a heavy foot print.

I do not assume anything, and would need to do very a very careful review of all data related to the Companies operations, before I would rule something out entirely

Was only trying to show how there are so many difficulties with trying to develop a site specific plan to accomplish the task, and all the BS that comes with trying to just clean it up.. it really does get ugly very quickly due to the amounts of money that are involved, in some cases these Companies can do a number on the problem, in other cases the do a number on the money.. that's just the way it is in remediation..

And also the scope of the clean up is not usually a simple "put it in a bag and shake".. as the size of the Western United States will not fit into just one bag.. and the problems to be managed on something this size it really a bit over over more than most folks can ever get close to comprehending, at least to me.. even if we go back a step to Butte, MT.. they still can't deal with just that site and it is a defined location, with defined parameters.. it just gets too big to treat, or the treatment technology will handle one or two aspects, but then you end up with three or four more instead..

Truth be told, I gave up a long while back on trying to balance people vs environment.. (think I told Skeet's that one).. People win.. every time.. again, unless it becomes a HUGE human health issues and then there is some movement albeit very slow and is accompanied by train wreck you don't even want to watch

Wiley

Your age never came to mind rather your need to point out my assumed short comings and indirect implications of what my intent is/was/should be..

Validation would seem to have been your goal throughout out this thread else why the assumption that I "dismissed" YOUR link, as there was no mention of that by me.

As for bidding, I would hope one would be acquainted with the process if your bidding road work, and I never implied nor stated that your company was doing remediation, rather that your Company would have to comply with all requirements outlined in the bidding process (which would have environment conditions, among others) that you would have to include in your bid if your Company wanted the work.

As to your statement about industries following in lock step on environmental issues based on motivation, never seen that one ever.. have seen industry fight one another to insure they are playing on a level playing field, (meaning, that if one is having to do it, be it Fed-OSHA, E&O Insurance, natural gas vehicles.. what ever).. they will make sure the other competitor is playing by the same rules, so they are not at a competitive disadvantage... which is only good business sense.. but, it's not coming from a deep seated love for the environment in most cases, rather looking to the bottom line.

I will agree there have been improvements made in the way Industry handles materials.. I worked on a project with the major Chemical Company's here in the States a number of years ago.. we had been trying to get them to understand (Dow, Chevron, Monsanto, and many others who have production facilities all over the States, that it was to their benefit not to lose material via the air, soil and water in the production process..for any number of reasons. (this was two years before (Bhopal India) Another project I had worker on came to mind.. triple rinsing of pesticide containers.. to insure less materials would end up in water ways when farmers tossed the empties. We had had measured the amount of material saved by was the drums out was roughly $213 per 50 gallon drum.. Well, when they thought about it, and put a pencil to it.. they (the companies) opted without any adoption of Laws and regulation to completely refit all their facilities.. as they found by not polluting they would MAKE A LOT MORE MONEY..

That was the driver in every issues I worked on... Company's have share holders, and they expect a return.. so the Company is looking at one thing.. increase the amount of product sold every year... well, we you start looking at that on a National scale.. 18% more chemicals used every year, no matter what.. well that is not good. and it is I'm sorry to say the way it is done.. the goal is more, and more and more...

Well, from my stand point, it will make it eventually impossible to deal with, due to scale again....

I understand people are doing better than they were 30, 40,50 years ago.. but, the scale of production has also been increased to where we have not gotten ahead, but have fallen behind..

It's true the rivers are not catching fire anymore.. but I would again suggest, when almost all of the underground water in the United States has been negatively impacted by industrial use.. and it is not getting better.. that is not good, no matter how much dressing one puts on the cake...

I'm sure you do an excellent job as does your Company.. I just have difficulty with the current understanding of the overall scope and degree which we face here in the United States and other parts of the world..

We have some very serious economic issues coming at us.. that will only push the environmental issues to the side ... it seems quite obvious to me.. from a continuing theme here on the board about "jobs" in Mexico..

No one is saying they are for the people of Mexico starving.. rather they are saying don't let the people down here have something happen to them that we have had happen to us..

One other thing, to my knowledge not one road project has resulted in a Super Fund Site.. perhaps a batch plant of the Company with tanks or leaching ponds for what ever reason maybe.. but the road and it's by products. don't think so.. unless they used a soil sterilant on 200 miles of road side an then had to pull it up and it became hazardous wast..

Lastly, over all the balance seemed to be if any thing very liberal towards saving the environment..here on the board, had heard everyone here was a red neck.. I have not found that true at all.. everyone here including yourself seems to have an honest and healthy respect for the environment and actively strives to improve things...

I just try and add in a bit of crap I have picked up along the way, about Business, Government and Politics .. and so far I have really tried to say as in the middle as possible.. this is the first time I talk directly about work.. sorry as I would rather not.. I don't enjoy the process as much as I did when I was 26.. to many battles and scars, like I have said I'm retired.. will get off my soap box and let the young ones take over.. I'm waiting for 2012 myself, with a case of Pacifico and a bunch of tamales, looking at the ocean, and playing a guitar..

The Super Fund Sites will still be there long after I'm dead.. or what ever they will call them in another 40 years..

When I use a time period, it is to demonstrate the comparative changes one sees in lets just say 44 years.. they are substantial, some good, but in so many cases it not so good..

Suippy and demand? It's those gawdanm rappers and their freakin' bling! Who gives a ratsass how many shiny yellow hubcaps you can hang on yer neck?

What's wrong with electroplate?

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja Suippy and demand? It's those gawdanm rappers and their freakin' bling! Who gives a ratsass how many shiny yellow hubcaps you can hang on yer neck? What's wrong with electroplate?

Fer Gwds sake, didn't even think of that.. your right.. if the style keeps up, there will be no mountains left, even the himalayan mountains's range is in danger.. .. really like the hubcaps.. that is a keeper.. and that funny I don't care you are, that is funny..