BajaNomad - Entwined in Spines

Entwined in Spines

Natalie Ann - 3-5-2010 at 05:16 PM

DianaT's thread included some neat pix of cactus snaking through bushes and trees. That got me thinking about the symbiotic relationship between the cactus and desert trees. On Diana's thread I said this (skip quote box if you read it there).

Quote:

Originally posted by Natalie Ann
About those cactus entwining with the mesquite trees. From the Cactus Sanctuary guide I learned that those cactus and trees have an incredible relationship. Entwining with the tree provides support for the cactus, keeping it safe from wind and storm damage. That entwining also provides supports for the mesquite trees to climb and therefore they become taller, too. A mutual 'lean on me' relationship. The guide said that in entirely natural deserts of long ago Mexico, this type of growth was the norm.

And what's really interesting is that over time the mesquite trees sorta meld with the cactus, and cactus sprouts begin to grow right out of the tree. At first I thought the cactus was merely sprouting from 'crotches' in the tree branches, rooting in the accumulated debris. Guide told me not so.... and showed me spots where the cactus was growing directly out of open branches.

I found some pix which illustrate this relationship.

Here is a large tree blown by strong desert winds into the cactus, which held it up enough to keep it thriving.

A closer look at how the tree and cactus entwine.

The closeness of the cactus and the trees is inviting to many other life forms. There are lots of birds and here's evidence of a bee hive on the side of the cactus.

nena

Natalie Ann - 3-5-2010 at 05:19 PM

If you look at this lovely vision of cactus, you see the shrub or tree branches woven through.

Here's one of those little cactus starts in the crotch of the tree.

nena

Natalie Ann - 3-5-2010 at 05:24 PM

Growing on a more flat part of a branch.

Another...

Some of those cactus begin right here... and there's still some tasty sweet sour cactus fruit for me.

nena

Natalie Ann - 3-5-2010 at 05:28 PM

Beautiful cactus growing all by its lonesome.

The information center is built of petrified cardon.

When you're in the Sur near El Triunfo, stop by the Cactus Sanctuary. It's a most interesting spot... and the only shade for miles around. :lol:

nena

DianaT - 3-5-2010 at 06:07 PM

Thanks! Enjoy the pix and the education. I look forward to going there sometime---looks like a great place.

Diane

Indeed ! Thank you

djh - 3-5-2010 at 06:40 PM

I loved these photos.

On one of my daily hikes up north in Idaho (Tubbs Hill, which is a natural park / hill jutting out into Lake Coeur d'Alene), one of my favorite sights is a "nurse tree" that I have been watching for well over 20 years..... An old, bent over fir tree hanging out over the lake, with a, now about 20 year old, pine tree growing straight and tall right out of it. I always hear Elton John singing "Circle of Life" in my head when I look at it :-).

Thanks for sharing the photos.
djh

shari - 3-5-2010 at 07:36 PM

outstanding photos Nena...gracias

BAJA.DESERT.RAT - 3-5-2010 at 08:14 PM

Hola Natalie Ann,

thank you for the WONDERFUL pictures and education about cactus. for years, i have just driven through el triumfo on my way to or from la paz and didn't realize there was anything to stop for other than what is obvious from the road and also to buy the fantastic cactus fruit, i forget what month they are available.

where is this cactus sanctuary from the main road ?

i thank you in advance,

BIEN SALUD, DA RAT

Natalie Ann - 3-5-2010 at 08:30 PM

The Cactus Sanctuary is a road angling off Mex 1 just north of El Triunfo.... it angles off to the, well, southwest if one considers the highway to head straight south (which it doesn't). You see the side road and have to look in a ways to where it divides.... there's an enormous sign announcing the Cactus Sanctuary. Follow the arrow down the dirt road while watching for cows and gigantic holes. Doesn't take long.

There's a rather interesting small cemetery across from the cactus place..... and if you continue down the road you'll come to the tiny town of El Rosario, where they make colorful and lovely woven small baskets for keeping tortillas warm and such.

Once we drove much further back... on the way to JR's beloved Lago de Oro. The road narrows a good bit.... and we had to back out due to a dead cow across the path.... but it's real pretty back there, with a little arched cement bridge that crosses water part of the year.

nena

Natalie Ann - 3-5-2010 at 08:43 PM

Here's the sign you're looking for - it's large.

And here's the rather erotic welcome cactus. :lol:

nena

Sharksbaja - 3-6-2010 at 12:57 AM

What beautiful and profound pics to your credit, thanx Nena!

I particularly like most of them! :smug:

Skipjack Joe - 3-6-2010 at 11:08 AM

Thanks for posting these images about this place. I must have passed it many times without knowing it's presence.

My favorite is the 'lone cactus'. It looks to be an organ pipe.

The one that looks like a flower. I've always thought that that was caused by some sort of infection or disease. But that's just a theory. Mexitron would probably know.

Regarding the symbiotic relationship - I have doubts about that.

The visitor center looks like a very welcome place. I don't know what it is about arboretums - they always have such a calming effect. And the visitor center seems to be that way.

DianaT - 3-6-2010 at 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Natalie Ann
If you look at this lovely vision of cactus, you see the shrub or tree branches woven through.

nena

Since this is one of my favorites, can I keep the photo? :lol:

Natalie Ann - 3-6-2010 at 11:17 AM

I loved that little info center, Igor. Just a plain building - entirely petrified cardon inside and out. It was dark and cool - a real delight that day.... and something about being in it felt just right.

I really like the Cactus Sanctuary and have visited on many occasions. The guide there is knowledgeable and friendly, and within the Sanctuary is very thick old desert growth unlike anything I've seen elsewhere. The number of birds, lizards, snakes, bugs and other small creatures is amazing.

As for the story told to me about the symbiotic relationship.... I'm not gonna slit a vein and swear to its truth. That's what the cactus dude said but he could have been shining me on. I did actually see those cactus growing directly from the tree... although how they did that is for the likes of Mexitron to answer. I'd love to hear from him on the topic.

nena

torch - 3-6-2010 at 11:17 AM

I love cactus and it loves to stick me :yes:

Skipjack Joe - 3-6-2010 at 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Natalie Ann

As for the story told to me about the symbiotic relationship.... I'm not gonna slit a vein and swear to its truth. That's what the cactus dude said but he could have been shining me on.

One of the few good things about aging and getting old (and there are soooo few) is the confidence to disagree with authorities. I'm not saying he's wrong but if I have doubts I'll voice them rather than accept them. Anyway, we don't have to take the thread in that direction if you don't want to. I just saw what happened to Diane's thread.

BTW, I've changed my mind. The picture of the flowering cactus is probably not an infection but the early growth of a new branch, don't you think?

Natalie Ann - 3-6-2010 at 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
Since this is one of my favorites, can I keep the photo? :lol:

Of course you may use this photo, Diane....
and thank you very much for asking my permission. :light:

nena

Natalie Ann - 3-6-2010 at 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
One of the few good things about aging and getting old (and there are soooo few) is the confidence to disagree with authorities. I'm not saying he's wrong but if I have doubts I'll voice them rather than accept them. Anyway, we don't have to take the thread in that direction if you don't want to. I just saw what happened to Diane's thread.

BTW, I've changed my mind. The picture of the flowering cactus is probably not an infection but the early growth of a new branch, don't you think?

About your doubt, Igor. I'm curious about this, too. I sent a u2u to Mexitron asking if he knew more. I'm open to information from any plant folks out there.

I think that 'flowering' cactus is some kind of aberration of growth. Believe shari talked about that once. I'll send her a note in case she doesn't see this.... ask her to 'splain again.

nena

shari - 3-6-2010 at 12:20 PM

funky cactus growth....sure I know why...Goddess's Will!!! :yes:

i shall be so bold as to post this fresco cactus whales tail.

5x7whalecactusfresco-1.jpg - 47kB

Mexitron - 3-6-2010 at 01:25 PM

yup, the "flowering" cactus has a condition known as "cresting" and it is generally caused by a virus getting into the apical cells where cell division starts.

its an interesting idea---that the mesquite and the cactii have a symbiotic relationship...although from what I know of, the symbiosis is mostly in favor of the cactus...very often you will find that cacti seedlings growing in the shade of a mesquite or other plant---in these cases where the host plant is protecting the seedlings from full sun the host plant is called a "nurse plant". But a symbiosis would imply a benefit to the mesquite which I'm not sure there is.

Another twist though is that cacti are actually descendents of tropical vines---they evolved out of the tropics as deserts were forming millions of years ago---in fact there are a few intermedaries still growing today--one example is Pereskia and it looks like a vining sprawling cactus...!

Skipjack Joe - 3-6-2010 at 01:27 PM

At the risk of sounding to preachy I'll write what I think:

Two species involved in a symbiotic relationship have evolved to a degree where they interact with one another. That means that one or both seeks the other out to perform this interaction. This is done by individuals as genetically programmed at the species level.

One straightforward way to determine whether symbiosis is occuring is by measuring the distribution of individuals relative to themselves and relative to the other species.

If all the individuals are equally distributed in an area there is antagonistic relationship between individuals. Lobsters are like that as they are territorial.

If the individuals are totally randomly distributed there is likely no interaction between the members.

If, however, one or both species have a clumped distribution and it's clumped around the other species you probably have some kind of interaction between the two (even though you don't know what it is).

So the question is were the cacti clumped around the trees, or the trees clumped near cacti, or both? Or was there just a set of plants, with some being in contact with one another and some not? If the latter, were the clumped individuals statistically significant from the non-clumped ones? One needs to plot an area out, count them out, and do the stats.

But from where my travels have taken me I have seen miles of cactus without adjoining trees and have seen lots of arroyos with trees with a few cacti in their midst. So that's why I don't think real symbiosis is taking place. Another words, no species is actively 'seeking' the other. In plants, 'actively seeking' are seeds more sucessfully germinating next to the other species than elsewhere. One of the two species should at least be doing that in a symbiotic relationship to my way of thinking.

Mexitron - 3-6-2010 at 01:36 PM

Yes, I think that's about right Skipjack...the "nurse plant" situation is more of an opportunistic luck of the draw than a real symbiosis...

DianaT - 3-6-2010 at 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron
yup, the "flowering" cactus has a condition known as "cresting" and it is generally caused by a virus getting into the apical cells where cell division starts.

its an interesting idea---that the mesquite and the cactii have a symbiotic relationship...although from what I know of, the symbiosis is mostly in favor of the cactus...very often you will find that cacti seedlings growing in the shade of a mesquite or other plant---in these cases where the host plant is protecting the seedlings from full sun the host plant is called a "nurse plant". But a symbiosis would imply a benefit to the mesquite which I'm not sure there is.

Another twist though is that cacti are actually descendents of tropical vines---they evolved out of the tropics as deserts were forming millions of years ago---in fact there are a few intermedaries still growing today--one example is Pereskia and it looks like a vining sprawling cactus...!

Really interesting information. Being one with VERY limited scientific background, I really appreciate the scientific information.

Curious if this is an example of cresting you talk about. This one interested me as it looks like two different things growing? Ignore the carving---I need to clone that out.

Thanks, and I really want to go to that place! Nena, I bet you have more pix of that place hiding on your computer.

Diane :yes:

Just read Skipjack's post---thanks, your description and definitions are interesting.

[Edited on 3-6-2010 by DianaT]

Natalie Ann - 3-6-2010 at 01:57 PM

Thanks you much, Mexitron, for clearing that up about the symbiosis. I do understand now that a nurse plant does not imply symbiosis in and of itself. Also, I'd heard that roses are descendants of cactus... now I understand cactus evolved from tropical vines. Mother nature never fails to amaze me.

Igor - In this area which has been sanctuary for some good long time, the cactus and trees are so thickly intertwined that it's difficult to say which came first - the chicken or the egg. You should visit the place when you're down this summer, have a look for yourself.

Diane... The 'crested' cactus image is the one you said you wanted.

nena

DianaT - 3-6-2010 at 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Natalie Ann

Diane... The 'crested' cactus image is the one you said you wanted.

nena

Thanks----now I can name "my" newly acquired photo. :biggrin:

Makes since to me now ---just a little slow on the draw.

Mexitron - 3-6-2010 at 05:26 PM

Diana---that looks like an actual flower-- it looks like the old flower base is resting towards the bottom of the orange stuff...I'm not sure but it might be a flower that fell onto that branch from higher up...???

Mexitron - 3-6-2010 at 05:34 PM

here's a cresting cactus:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:foGwwE-YOAu40M:http://ima...

DianaT - 3-6-2010 at 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron
Diana---that looks like an actual flower-- it looks like the old flower base is resting towards the bottom of the orange stuff...I'm not sure but it might be a flower that fell onto that branch from higher up...???

Thanks---it looked like it was growing because I did not get that close---I love cacti, but I have not had good experiences touching them. :biggrin:

But I enlarged the picture and it does look like it is just resting.

Maybe the big storm knocked it off.

BajaBlanca - 3-14-2010 at 10:44 AM

Your pictures are really beautiful ... and we weill surely visit the cactus sanctuary, now that we know it exists ! :bounce:

ecomujeres - 3-14-2010 at 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Curious if this is an example of cresting you talk about. This one interested me as it looks like two different things growing? Ignore the carving---I need to clone that out.

The photo you show here is a cardon that has had a stem or branch cut off and then it has healed over the wound. The little yellow balls are just the remains of the cardon fruit sitting on top of the cut stem.

As Mexitron said, I too learned that the cresting was caused by a virus that hijacks the plants DNA and ends up causing this typical growth pattern.

ecomujeres - 3-14-2010 at 02:56 PM

Oh, and the longer tubular thing on the bottom left of the balls is probably part of the fruit's outer layer after it lost the ball-like clusters of spines.

ecomujeres - 3-14-2010 at 03:17 PM

A couple of comments about the original photos of intertwining cacti and mesquite as well as the sprouting cacti in the crevices.

I would hazard to say that the tree was likely there first. As the cactus (Pachycereus pectin-aborigenum, or Cardón barbón) grew, where the tree was pressing against its tissues, it grew to envelope the tree's branches.

If you've ever seen a Cardón that has been vandalized, meaning something jammed into it, or wrapped around it, the tissues can eventually grow to envelope the object. Trees do this too. The result is that it looks like one or both are growing out of the other.

Next, the cactus seedlings are taking advantage of the accumulated dirt in the angle of the branches. Think of epiphytes like bromeliads and orchids that grow in trees, clinging to the trees but not getting any benefit other than a place to live. Their roots don't penetrate the base plant's bark nor do they steal nutrients from the base plant. These micro-environments catch and hold nutrients and water for the seedling's growth.

It would be interesting to see how large these plants could become as they begin to require more nutrients than their house can provide.

I can't wait to go back to El Santuario. It's well worth the trip.