BajaNomad - Toyota Tacoma 40,000 mile test

Toyota Tacoma 40,000 mile test

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805gregg - 3-11-2010 at 08:58 PM

There is a test in Car and Driver on a long term drive of the 2008 Tacoma http;//www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...term.road test They praise it for the most part but they say after 40,000 miles all of us noted that the Tacoma's structure lacked aequate rigidity. By the truck's 40,000 mile mark, traversing a large bump would cause the body to quiver and the door seals to squeak. That combined with the floppy suspension, made the Tacoma an unpopular choice for the drive home after work. Even by pickup standards, the Tacoma's chassis was less than precise. A direct quote, maybe not a good truck for Baja.

[Edited on 3-12-2010 by 805gregg]

Tacoma

BajaDanD - 3-11-2010 at 10:20 PM

I got over 160,000 miles on mine and a bunch of that has been on dirt roads all over Baja. I live on a dirt road in Az. The road is pretty bad. I dont have any problems with mine.

805gregg - 3-11-2010 at 10:47 PM

I didn't write it, fault Car and Driver, I'm sure they know nothing about cars. For the most part they praise the truck, except no one wanted to drive it home.

[Edited on 3-12-2010 by 805gregg]

David K - 3-12-2010 at 08:31 AM

My 2001 Tacoma had 136,000 miles on it in less than 5 years, and my 2005 Tacoma had 102,000 miles on it in less than 5 years with tons of Baja driving on boath... including trips to Mision Santa Maria with both... NO such issues at all... Car and Driver is best to stick with Porsches and Mustangs... they wouldn't like driving a truck no matter who made it.

Thanks for sharing gregg...

rts551 - 3-12-2010 at 08:58 AM

Maybe the 2008 is different. Or will any test matter.

josie - 3-12-2010 at 09:24 AM

My brother has a Toyota truck that is 6 years old with over a 100,000 miles and is still tight like from the factory. He has had quite a few problems with his brand new Toyota pickup but has mainly been electrical problems. Was there something different about the 2008 models? I guess that nothing can be 100% perfect and a few lemons are to be expected. Of course that is of little consolation if you happen to be the one who buys one.

DianaT - 3-12-2010 at 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Or will any test matter.

No and never. :biggrin:

We were loyal Toyota customers but I doubt we will buy another one. We just do not trust them anymore with all that has happened and the way they handled the problems.

rts551 - 3-12-2010 at 09:40 AM

BUt But but its a Toyota... and thats the only vehicle to buy! Just listen to the experts

tripledigitken - 3-12-2010 at 09:43 AM

About a year ago I recalled an incident I had with a 1991 SR5 Toyota 4x4 pickup. It blew a head gasket at around 50,000 miles. Toyota would not warrantee the work, $1100 my cost. A year or two later it became a recall item. I went back to Toyota to get some help, nada! Two years later the engine blew at 75,000 miles, no warantee help from Toyota, $3,500 my cost. No coincidence that the engine failure was related to the overheating caused by the head gasket problem.

I went on to put 125,000 miles on it over 11 years. Otherwise it was a fine vehicle, but my faith in Toyota was ruined by the way they treated me.

It was my last Toyota purchase.

Ken

monoloco - 3-12-2010 at 09:47 AM

I have some friends here that bought a new Tacoma 2 years ago, mechanically it's been pretty good but the body is pretty tinny, they have had trouble with rattles, loose body panels, trim pieces falling off and most recently a broken rear leaf spring. I think they are probably pretty good if you do most of your driving on the highway, but the roads down here take a toll on them fairly rapidly. From what I have seen the older ones were better.

astrobaja - 3-12-2010 at 09:54 AM

We have an 08 Tacoma about the only thing we don't like about it is the terribly soft suspension. We took it back to Poway toyota and they replaced the rear springs for free, it was better but it still bottomed out lots with even a moderate load (like 9 bales of hay). Granted the type of roads we have here are a it on the extreme side

but as soon as we can we will be installing a stage 2 Demello kit with Donavan parts to stiffen it all up.

2000 Tacoma TRD 4x4

DERN - 3-12-2010 at 10:26 AM

My truck still feels pretty tight. She just turned over 90k. Had the timing belt/water pump/belts/cooling system/plugs and all that fun stufff gone through just the other day.

The only thing that I don't like is the front suspension. Those springs are way, way, too soft. I can't even go over a speed bump at Vons without bottoming out. That is with a new set of shocks. From what I gather is that Toyota had a lawsuit due to this problem in the past. I need to get some stiffer springs to solve this problem. Any suggestions?

DERN

monoloco - 3-12-2010 at 10:45 AM

Check out Deaver springs.

DERN - 3-12-2010 at 10:52 AM

So does Deaver make coil type springs for the front as well? We have Deaver Leafs for the front of the F-350 and couldn't be happier.

DERN

bajabass - 3-12-2010 at 11:27 AM

I would use the Icon adj. coilovers. Fully adj. for height, and good valving.

drzura - 3-12-2010 at 11:43 AM

Toyota sucks. I have a Tacoma and will not by another one. I may be looking at Ford for my next truck.

monoloco - 3-12-2010 at 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DERN
So does Deaver make coil type springs for the front as well? We have Deaver Leafs for the front of the F-350 and couldn't be happier.

DERN

I really don't know, I have an F350 as well and have been looking to put some Deavers on it. How many leaves are on the spring packs you put on your F350? I want to put something more progressive on so it doesn't ride so harshly when empty.

David K - 3-12-2010 at 05:23 PM

Dern, Bilstein 5100s with the coil over spring for the front... they are height adjustable.

My 2005 had soft rear springs, and I took it upon myself to improve the back suspension with Ride Rite air bags and 5100s in back. The front was fine. Since then, I learned about Toyota's TSB (Tech. Service Bulletin) for rough rear suspension on '05 and newer access cabs and double cabs... and Toyota will change the springs from the soft 3 pack to a 4 pack, for free. The 2010 has stiffer springs, and did not bottom out... at least not yet.

Toyota isn't perfect, it's just the best mid size truck built from what most of you Nomads have reported and from my experience. Why did Car and Driver go after Toyota (like GM and this administration) and not Nissan or any other? Because Toyota is #1. As for GM (Government Motors), instead of making their truck more desireable, they instead make a campaign against #1... sad sad...

I will honestly report any bad stuff with this Tacoma the SAME as I did with my others, here on Nomad... I don't get any kick back from Tacoma (wish I did)!

If anyone missed my post here, I did have a tranny drip on my garage floor from the new truck (a first since Toyotas are famous to be drip free!). It was from the right hand steering model speedometer cable plug... just ahead of the driveshaft, right side. It took two trips to the service, and I got a free rental car each time.

Skipjack Joe - 3-12-2010 at 05:40 PM

My Tacoma makes rear suspension noise. My mechanic says it's from the leaf springs. Apparently I'm not the only one with this experience (see link). Doesn't bother me too much as long as it's not something serious. And yes, the front suspension is pretty soft.

http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/suspension-and-axle/39376-tacoma-05-leaf-springs-rusty-squeaking/

DianaT - 3-12-2010 at 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Toyota isn't perfect, it's just the best mid size truck built from what most of you Nomads have reported and from my experience. Why did Car and Driver go after Toyota (like GM and this administration) and not Nissan or any other? Because Toyota is #1. As for GM (Government Motors), instead of making their truck more desireable, they instead make a campaign against #1... sad sad...

You just cannot resist the political stabs, can you---that is so pathetic, but so expected. :no:

We were loyal Toyota customers, but people have died because of their lack of any ethical business practices. No more as there is no more trust.

[Edited on 3-13-2010 by DianaT]

TonyC - 3-12-2010 at 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
My 2001 Tacoma had 136,000 miles on it in less than 5 years, and my 2005 Tacoma had 102,000 miles on it in less than 5 years with tons of Baja driving on boath... including trips to Mision Santa Maria with both... NO such issues at all... Car and Driver is best to stick with Porsches and Mustangs... they wouldn't like driving a truck no matter who made it.

Thanks for sharing gregg...

Got you beat David....2001 Tacoma 246,000 miles.

David K - 3-12-2010 at 05:53 PM

Good one Tony! And not all that uncommon with a truck as solid as Toyota builds!

woody with a view - 3-12-2010 at 05:55 PM

i still think our tundra is the best choice we could have made!!!! we love it! there is a problem (or five) with every car maker on the planet.

i seriously doubt we'll ever buy a new vehicle ever again, though. i don't wanna be part of the test group. in the age of the internet there are so many outlets for info that a 3-5 year-old vehicle is still capable of 100k+ miles and it only costs 30-40% of a new "experimental" showroom sales pitch.

YMMV

[Edited on 3-13-2010 by woody in ob]

irenemm - 3-12-2010 at 05:56 PM

ford bronco full size bought it with 105,000, baja miles on it when it was less than 2 years old.
it has 365,000 on it now all the orginal stuff. lost the 4wd about a year after i got. did not replay it no need.
that bronco still run good. need plates. 1988
never a toyota.
best truck F150

DianaT - 3-12-2010 at 06:02 PM

Curious,

Are there any other former loyal Toyota customers who would not buy another Toyota because of the recent happenings?

We just think about the people who did not need to die. It was so sad.

Even if they built the PERFECT vehicle, we could not bring ourselves to buy another Toyota.

[Edited on 3-13-2010 by DianaT]

TonyC - 3-12-2010 at 06:08 PM

David my 2006 Tundra....116,000 miles.

[Edited on 3-13-2010 by TonyC]

David K - 3-12-2010 at 06:24 PM

Awesome photo... they love the beach, don't they?!! As much as my Golden Retriever did!

Here's my '05 Tacoma in Sept. of '05 (no plates yet) on (maybe?) the SAME beach (Cielito Lindo)!

woody with a view - 3-12-2010 at 06:45 PM

somewhere, in summertime....

edit: BTW, Tony i like the "leveled" look of your DC...

[Edited on 3-13-2010 by woody in ob]

100_5500.jpg - 45kB

rts551 - 3-12-2010 at 06:47 PM

Do you sleep with it as well????

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Awesome photo... they love the beach, don't they?!! As much as my Golden Retriever did!

Here's my '05 Tacoma in Sept. of '05 (no plates yet) on (maybe?) the SAME beach (Cielito Lindo)!

woody with a view - 3-12-2010 at 06:53 PM

we love the beach. all 3 of us!!!!!!

100_5727.jpg - 44kB

Tell these people

DianaT - 3-12-2010 at 06:56 PM

what a wonderful company Toyota is---

I cannot believe that it makes no difference to anyone else. I guess it is one of those, well, as long as it didn't happen to me, so what. :no:

Toyota has lost all credibility in our book-----again, the lack of ethics is disgusting.

[Edited on 3-13-2010 by DianaT]

k-rico - 3-12-2010 at 07:00 PM

Buy American!!

19 year old Ford Condominium Extendocab.

Takes a lickin', keeps on tickin'

Don't leave home without one.

Oh what a feelin'.

I'm lovin' it.

I paid $4,500 for this rig 6 years ago! :lol:

[Edited on 3-13-2010 by k-rico]

ford_condo.jpg - 47kB

woody with a view - 3-12-2010 at 07:03 PM

Diane

when a plane falls out of the sky, will you never fly with them again? what if it was weather related, terrorism, faulty maintenance, or, like in San Diego 35 years ago, when a student pilot clipped a descending PSA passenger jet.

if it's your turn whatcha gonna do?

i do agree though, that it is your choice/$ to use as you choose and that is as it should be....

rts551 - 3-12-2010 at 07:11 PM

I think what Diane is saying is that Toyota for what ever reason ignored the problems. They have as much as admitted they grew to fast and got to big and things went down hill.... they are not the first to do so

woody with a view - 3-12-2010 at 07:22 PM

if i follow this thread to it's present incarnation it would seem that all you ford lovers should be chastised for buying from a company who permitted/profited from the installation of PLASTIC fuel tanks in the rear end of the FORD PINTO.

how many never bought American again?

http://www.autosafety.org/ford-pinto-fuel-fed-fires

[Edited on 3-13-2010 by woody in ob]

images.jpeg - 3kB

Skipjack Joe - 3-12-2010 at 07:25 PM

Hey! My first trip to Loreto was in a Pinto. :fire:

mtgoat666 - 3-12-2010 at 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
Curious,

Are there any other former loyal Toyota customers who would not buy another Toyota because of the recent happenings?

We just think about the people who did not need to die. It was so sad.

Even if they built the PERFECT vehicle, we could not bring ourselves to buy another Toyota.

[Edited on 3-13-2010 by DianaT]

i still think toyota cars are good. statistically, very few people have had problems, and now that problems are known, the bugs will eventually be fixed. US autos have been much worse than toyotas, and US auto execs have behaved more poorly than toyota mexecs. all corporations behave badly, just because toyota execs got egg on their face doesn't mean that US execs are any better actors. you ever see "roger and me?" never trust a corporation and you'll be just fine.

my 4 runner is great, still impressed with it. of course it is better than tacoma toy PU trucks being discussed here :lol:

rts551 - 3-12-2010 at 07:30 PM

Agreedgoat. but that does not let Toyota off the hook does it?

k-rico - 3-12-2010 at 07:37 PM

The fact that Toyota did not use a brake override system is real mysterious to me.
The only reason could be to increase profits.
They are retro-fitting many cars now with the system and all new cars will have them.

But, get this, the company says the override systems aren't necessary,
they're doing it to ease customer fears.

BULLSCHIT!!!

They have a problem with the throttle control system,
they know it, AND THEY STILL WON'T ADMIT IT.

[Edited on 3-13-2010 by k-rico]

mtgoat666 - 3-12-2010 at 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Agreedgoat. but that does not let Toyota off the hook does it?

i don't really care if they are on or off hook. however, i have practiced putting car in neutral at high speed under accelerator load (just in case :lol:

) i am not brave enough to practice turning key off at high speed :!:

DianaT - 3-12-2010 at 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
Diane

when a plane falls out of the sky, will you never fly with them again? what if it was weather related, terrorism, faulty maintenance, or, like in San Diego 35 years ago, when a student pilot clipped a descending PSA passenger jet.

if it's your turn whatcha gonna do?

i do agree though, that it is your choice/$ to use as you choose and that is as it should be....

Woody,
I watched the head of Toyota admit under oath that they knew about the problems and about the potential danger involved, and they made a business decision to not do the recalls--- a money decision that killed people.

And no, they are not the first, nor will they be the last company who do the same thing. But I just cannot accept the oh well, others do it so it is OK so ignore it.

But in the end, it is our fault because it appears that we tend to accept these things unless it affects us personally.

[Edited on 3-13-2010 by DianaT]

rts551 - 3-12-2010 at 07:50 PM

It is surmised that Toyota is more willing to pay the lawsuits for accidents than to admit to a problem. Admitting to a problem might mean paying the class action suits that are popping up for the drop in value of all models of Toyota

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5imJf-xAYjZ...

woody with a view - 3-12-2010 at 07:52 PM

FWIW,

last monday morning an employee of one of my electric sub contractors was driving thru joshua tree on the 62/29 palms highway on his way to 29 palms for another week of work. his 2.5 hour drive from vista was 30 minutes from completion when 2 drunk Marines in an F250 blew thru a stop sign at 50 mph and t-boned Dave on the passenger side of his mini van at 5:10 am!!!!!!! Dave woke up in the ambulance on the way to palm springs and a week later still doesn't know the WTF happened. Dave has 20+ staples in his skull, 3 broken ribs, a concusion and various cuts and bruises. when will he get back to work?

are the car companies to blame for his injuries, or the alcohol slingers?

GET WELL, DAVE!!! WE MISS YOU BRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

edit: or is it just fate?

[Edited on 3-13-2010 by woody in ob]

rts551 - 3-12-2010 at 07:55 PM

If the F250 was drunk , yes. Otherwise not relevant to the thread

woody with a view - 3-12-2010 at 07:56 PM

:lol:

my money is on the EDIT!

Reposted here by permission...

David K - 3-13-2010 at 04:17 PM

from 'oxi' on Tacoma World:

Toyota's Silent 'Mule'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indulge me for a moment, but all those people who have laughed and pointed at Toyota's torment in the past few weeks are getting ready to echo what that cowboy had to tell the prospector: "No sir, but I've always wanted to."

You see, there have been two important events that have already occurred this week if you've been following the story of how the world's largest automotive manufacturer has been ridiculed and debased after recalling 8.5 million automobiles due to a variety of acceleration, transmission and floor mat issues.

First, General Motors just recalled 1.3 million cars on Monday for steering problems. What? You didn't see that? Where were the TV cameras? Where were the righteous who demanded that, no, the American president of Toyota (Jim Lentz) wasn't good enough, that our "pound of flesh" must come from the "big man" himself - Akio Toyoda - so that he could be publicly humiliated last week? Don't dare think the government is going to slap GM after last year's bail-out.

Secondly, on Monday Toyota announced it will now sell any new car or truck to a qualified buyer by providing that person with a five-year, zero-interest loan. Further, Toyota will change the oil and offer complete maintenance for free for the first two years. And, yes, on top of that there will be rebates up to $3,000 on certain models. That's strong.

Listen, gunslinger, General Motors doesn't have bullets like that. Toyota's third-quarter earnings last year were $1.7 billion, exactly the same amount lost during the third quarter of 2008. The company also just sold 2.07 million vehicles from October to December so, with the recall embarrassment, now there is a firm-jawed resolve to make the overblown travesty "the mother of all recalls."

Right now Toyota is processing 50,000 recalled vehicles a day, somewhat easily, too, I might add. To do so, their dealers are loaning cars while repairs are being made, paying rental fees and even taxi receipts. The simple fact is that never in the history of the auto industry has there been such an intense response. General Motors, on the other hand, will not offer a similar assistance program to the 1.3 million owners in this latest recall because, quite frankly, it doesn't have the clout nor the "want to" that Toyota does right now.

Listen to this - J.D. Power has just announced the best luxury car in the world right now is a Lexus, the premium brand of Toyota that just dominated four of J.D. Power's five main categories. This week Consumer Reports, not a government agency but one of the most respected quality-assurance sources in our country, returned eight different Toyota models to its "recommended" list. Go ahead, look it up. While you're at it, buy the Consumer Reports' car annual; you'll see for yourself Toyota is a tight No. 3 overall while GM and Chrysler are solidly "dead last."

What our jeering Congress members actually did last week while ridiculing Toyota was to make the company more determined, more results-driven and, yes, even a bit angry. Those that mock Toyota as "Japanese" are too stupid to realize today there are 175,000 Americans who are paid each day by the auto manufacturer. My goodness, look how many plants they have built in the United States in the last 10 years while American manufacturers have been stagnant.

Those who laugh and point have not yet been to Blue Springs, Miss., a sleepy town in the northeast part of the state. Toyota has just spent $300 million building a new plant in that poverty-riddled area that will soon employ 2,000 job-starved people. Toyota also pledged $50 million to "better educate" potential workers in Mississippi, but had to delay the plant's opening because of a lagging market and (gulp) the hysteria resulting from the recent recall, which is expected to cost the company $2 billion.

Has this country gone completely crazy? Instead of slapping Toyota around and forcing Mr. Toyoda to bow before a sadly-arrogant Congressional committee, we should instead have gracefully allowed the largest manufacturer in the world to clean up its own mess in the same way we have afforded other car companies to handle their own recalls for years.

What's that? The other companies? Automotive recalls protect consumers when, in truth, very few actual cases are ever found. But what you need to know is that, in the last 20 years, there have been 569 recalls of Toyota vehicles. At the same time, there have been 3,498 recalls of General Motors vehicles. Yes, there have also been 2,691 Ford recalls and 2,419 Chrysler recalls, too. Do those numbers tell you anything, particularly if you are a fortune-teller?

So now America - our Congress and all of us they call constituents - must "behold the mule." You see, all Toyota has to do is wait. General Motors doesn't have "the bullets" to play in a high-stakes card game that offers zero-percent financing, free maintenance, rental cars and taxis, and - most importantly - has its "hold cards" the best-made vehicles with the highest reliability and safety ratings in the whole world.

Just in case you weren't listening as Aiko Toyoda bowed before Congress last week, you should have heard both big hammers being pulled back. You mark this down; those men in Congress, the ones who took the UAW contributions and strutted about like proud little roosters, should have fallen for the ploy, but, far worse, they should have never laughed.

"Sonny boy, have you ever kissed the south end of a north-bound mule?"

http://chattanoogan.com/articles/article_170186.asp

DianaT - 3-13-2010 at 04:35 PM

Who ever this guy is, he really missed the point----seems to be epidemic among some.

The operative word is GM RECALLED. Toyota's lack of ethics is that they knew there were problems and they DID NOT recall.

Big difference. BTW, GM would probably not be our choice for our next vehicles ---do not care much for them.

But this guy is comparing apples to oranges.

Like their vehicles or not, it is difficult to believe that anyone would excuse and support how they handled this. It sounds like one of the conspiracy believing nut cases with another agenda in mind.

[Edited on 3-13-2010 by DianaT]

bajabass - 3-13-2010 at 04:56 PM

Key off at high speed is no sweat, you lose power steering, and have about two assisted stabs on the brakes, then manual brakes only. The key will not turn to the "locked" position unless the car or truck is in park. It is the same as running out of gas at 70 on the freeway! Going to neutral would redline the motor, better to hit the key, IMHO. 93 Toy 2wd pu, 97 2wd T-100, 2000 2wd Tundra SR-5, 2002 Tundra SR-5 4x4, 2, 2005 Tundra 4x4's, totalled one into a K-rail at 70!, 2009 Tundra TRD SR-5 4x4. All great trucks, and I fix 'em for a living. But when I move south, a good old truck is next. Toyota tried to dodge a bullet, and missed. I got the recall noticed a couple days ago, I'll have it "fixed" soon, and start building my Baja truck soon after.

wessongroup - 3-13-2010 at 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
It is surmised that Toyota is more willing to pay the lawsuits for accidents than to admit to a problem. Admitting to a problem might mean paying the class action suits that are popping up for the drop in value of all models of Toyota

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5imJf-xAYjZ...

Funny that some don't see that this game is a "Global Game" and it is played as well by the Japanesse as any others...

Most American car makers, had their feet held to the "coals" by a guy named "Ralph Nader" in years past..

They (the American Car Companies) ate their lunch due to very poor advice.. the Japanesses are again... "good studies".. they learn from others mistakes ....

They got a good PR firm, who advised them, and correctly so.. go "proactive" now that the spin in going against them.. and falling on ones sword is really the best thing to do.. look what it accomplished...

The Japanesse are excellent businessmen.. and their ability to produce quality products is not in question, rather the quality control and the apparent failure to adopt measure which would have perhaps prevented this media event.. and the associated problems some have experienced.

Are the American car makers using this to their advantage of course... they are in Business to try and make a buck too, just like the Japaneese.. also.. I hope the American car Companies are trying to make a buck as our Government owns them!!! which is just about the way business is run in Japan too.. “The Japanese government paid for 100% of the development of the battery and hybrid system that went into the Toyota Prius.” by James Press.. former Toyota executive and now Chrylser LLC vice chairman.... guess he did not like his "golden parachute" received from Toyota?

It's business and these are the same as toasters.. they are made on an assymbley line by workers who put them togather.. they are not part of ones body.. nor do they do anything more than move one from point A to point B.. with the less amount of cost in varing degrees of comfort and/or status

They are but tools made by very large Companies and are used by folks who buy them ... and the bottom line in every case is "money".. not people... but, you all knew that

And for the the old prospector story, here is another....

Old prospector comes into town, gets off his mule, walks around to it's rear end and lifts it's tail and plants a big kiss right on it's you know what ....

Walks into the bar and gets a shot of whiskey... goes back out and kiss his mules butt again... comes back and gets another shot..

Bartender.... got know why you keep kissing you mules ahole.. the old prospector.. well, I got chapped lips, and that keeps me from licking them...

Guess the moral to the story is, there are ways of doing things.. some a bit more unusuall than many of us would chose.... given the chance..

bajaguy - 3-13-2010 at 05:39 PM

Let's see.....

0% financing for five years or a rebate, free oil changes or service for two years.........a new vehicle that with all of this publicity under a microscope will probably be the safest, overengineered vehicle around for several years.......

Sign me up for a 2012 Tundra :lol:

mtgoat666 - 3-13-2010 at 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Has this country gone completely crazy? Instead of slapping Toyota around and forcing Mr. Toyoda to bow before a sadly-arrogant Congressional committee, we should instead have gracefully allowed the largest manufacturer in the world to clean up its own mess in the same way we have afforded other car companies to handle their own recalls for years.

dk,
glad to know we can count on you to always get it wrong :lol:

somewhat surprised you did not blame the toyota problem on obama, democrats and socialism.

David K - 3-13-2010 at 05:55 PM

Read closer goat man, I didn't write that...

you lost me on this one

desertcpl - 3-13-2010 at 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
FWIW,

last monday morning an employee of one of my electric sub contractors was driving thru joshua tree on the 62/29 palms highway on his way to 29 palms for another week of work. his 2.5 hour drive from vista was 30 minutes from completion when 2 drunk Marines in an F250 blew thru a stop sign at 50 mph and t-boned Dave on the passenger side of his mini van at 5:10 am!!!!!!! Dave woke up in the ambulance on the way to palm springs and a week later still doesn't know the WTF happened. Dave has 20+ staples in his skull, 3 broken ribs, a concusion and various cuts and bruises. when will he get back to work?

are the car companies to blame for his injuries, or the alcohol slingers?

GET WELL, DAVE!!! WE MISS YOU BRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

edit: or is it just fate?

[Edited on 3-13-2010 by woody in ob]

woody with a view - 3-13-2010 at 06:51 PM

just a long-winded story about how people are always trying to place blame on "something or someone" when the blame rests firmly on chance, errr, fate.....

Diver - 3-13-2010 at 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Read closer goat man, I didn't write that...

No, but you posted it.
Was your posting it supposed to mean that you didn't agree with it ?
Maybe you should try to be clearer with your posts ?? :light:

wessongroup - 3-13-2010 at 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy
Let's see.....

0% financing for five years or a rebate, free oil changes or service for two years.........a new vehicle that with all of this publicity under a microscope will probably be the safest, overengineered vehicle around for several years.......

Sign me up for a 2012 Tundra :lol:

If I was going to buy, I agree 100%... had mentioned that to DK.. too bad he got his a few months ago.. still a good deal.. but, now... OH MY

Can't beat that with a stick..

mtgoat666 - 3-13-2010 at 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Read closer goat man, I didn't write that...

bloated bloviating boy:
so what? in posting it is was apparent you agreed and wanted to tell us all about it

805gregg - 3-16-2010 at 08:13 PM

I think the 40,000 mile test was pretty much unbiased, and that's the way they saw the truck after 40k miles. Some people are biased and wouldn't admit a flexing body and squeaky door no matter what (one driver said he couldn't hear the door noise over the tire noise) so maybe there are a lot of drivers that don't realize it's flexing.. Also this was a test, you can bet they drove the pee out of that truck, some people baby theirs, that will make a difference in the suspension and chassis. Sorry to say I have to give it thumbs down.

[Edited on 3-17-2010 by 805gregg]

Ken Cooke - 3-17-2010 at 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajabass
I would use the Icon adj. coilovers. Fully adj. for height, and good valving.

I drive past Icon's offices each day on my way to work/home. They are located across the street from Toyota of Riverside, btw.

fishingmako - 3-25-2010 at 08:50 PM

you can talk all you want, Toyota is a great truck, I have owned one and it was great, but in the past few years they turned to profit over the customer, they don't care anymore when they continue to outsource their parts, and their quality control wasn't done as it used to be, so anyway they are going down rapidly, as I have said before if you want a truck or car by TOYOTA, wait a bit longer and you will get a deal that is mind boggling, you can get one now.

The sad part is there will be no parts available and what parts are, you will pay dearly, since they will have and will a monoply on all their parts, and you wont be able to get them anywhere else, remember they need to pay these law suits, how? money- money- money from where? parts.

So anyway I bought the BIG BOY SUPER DUTY DIESEL a real mans truck, Toyota I would have considered but they are in the little guys league, they need to get in the TONKA TOY BUSINESS. HUM

Curt63 - 3-26-2010 at 02:03 PM

Yep, Toyotas really suck

While were at it, there's this motorcycle company called Honda. They really suck too. Especially in Baja

Toyota vs. Jeep

David K - 3-26-2010 at 02:38 PM

Sent to me from a Nomad FJ Cruiser owner... No doubt, the Toyota Active Traction Control (A-TRAC) system that is also on '09 and newer Off Road TRD Tacomas may have helped!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8rLO-hDWHo&NR=1&feat...

[Edited on 3-26-2010 by David K]

Curt63 - 3-26-2010 at 04:08 PM

Nice video. Toyota ... too legit to quit.

Hmmm Toyotas pulling out other vehicles...sounds like a new thread.

Sorry for the small pics. This one tells the rest of the story. Those are 2 waverunners on a trailer.

Can anyone expand these photos? I tried but...

woody with a view - 3-26-2010 at 04:13 PM

yeah, my tundra pulled a f350 double cab 4x4 outta the soft sand last summer on the beach. i almost didn't feel it back there......

David K - 3-26-2010 at 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Curt63
Nice video. Toyota ... too legit to quit.

Hmmm Toyotas pulling out other vehicles...sounds like a new thread.

Sorry for the small pics. This one tells the rest of the story. Those are 2 waverunners on a trailer.

Can anyone expand these photos? I tried but...

Is the original photo on you computer? Either upload it again to where-ever the photo is hosted at a larger upload setting (it is a avatar/ thumbnail size now)... Or, email it to me and I will repost it here... Email me with the photo file attachment.

DianaT - 3-26-2010 at 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
yeah, my tundra pulled a f350 double cab 4x4 outta the soft sand last summer on the beach. i almost didn't feel it back there......

We still like our old Tundra, but the owners of Toyota are still scumbags----

woody with a view - 3-26-2010 at 04:40 PM

you mean us? or the stock holders? or the toyoda's?

DianaT - 3-26-2010 at 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
you mean us? or the stock holders? or the toyoda's?

Clarity, clarity, clarity----not there is it. :biggrin:

1. While I do believe there are some real scumbags who own toyota vehicles, I did not mean them. There are also some nice people who own toyota vehicles.

2. Not the average stock holder-----lots of reason.

3. The Toyodas and those who made the business decisions I believe are real scumbags who lack all ethics.

woody with a view - 3-26-2010 at 05:37 PM

:light:

Ken Cooke - 3-26-2010 at 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Sent to me from a Nomad FJ Cruiser owner... No doubt, the Toyota Active Traction Control (A-TRAC) system that is also on '09 and newer Off Road TRD Tacomas may have helped!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8rLO-hDWHo&NR=1&feat...

[Edited on 3-26-2010 by David K]

I read the May 2010 "SMACKDOWN" article - FJ Toyota Vs JK Wrangler, and I'm still surprised the FJ runs only on 91 Octane fuel.

Also, I read that the A-TRAC system does not stand up to an actual Locking Differential. It is some sort of torque-sensing differential that doesn't apply 100% torque at any one time. Hey, whatever works to get you off-road is my philosophy. But, I'm perfectly happy with my Rubicon. The FJ's look great lifted high, but variety is the Salsa of life.

TMW - 3-27-2010 at 08:31 AM

The bad thing about the Toyota rear locker is it only works in 4 wheel low. The good thing is it turns off the ABS system. I would prefer it work in both 4x4 positions and turn off the ABS in both.

Ken Cooke - 3-27-2010 at 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
The bad thing about the Toyota rear locker is it only works in 4 wheel low. The good thing is it turns off the ABS system. I would prefer it work in both 4x4 positions and turn off the ABS in both.

The Rubicon can be modified so that it's locker will work also in 4 Hi. I am sure a simple modification exists also for the FJ.

But, my question is - How easy/hard is it to keep an FJ gassed up while out in the backcountry of Baja for 2-3 days??? Would octane booster work???

TMW - 3-27-2010 at 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
you mean us? or the stock holders? or the toyoda's?

Clarity, clarity, clarity----not there is it. :biggrin:

Diana, I think it is not a simple decision made by Mr. Toyoda. Originally it was a decision made by people in the U.S. to downplay or not make a big issue. Bad publicity has a negative effect on sales and all companies try to downplay such things. Toyota having a reputation for quality was taken to the cleaners by the media over the gas peddle thing and Toyota for whatever reason did not handle it well at first. Fact is when compared to the millions and millions of vehicles they have sold over the past years there have been 38 deaths in the last 8 years. No death is good but compare that to other vehicle deaths and it's a drop in the bucket so to speak. If Toyota was a much smaller company the impact from the media would be minimal. Ford got the same attention from the Pinto gas tank issue and rollover of their SUVs. Was the head of Ford brought before a congessional committee. No. GM caught heat from the gas tanks on their full size truck bursting into flames and what really saved them was that in the NBC TV show it was found out the scene was rigged with explosives to ensure the tanks did explode. To his credit Mr Toyoda did not have to testify, he is not a U.S. citizen and does not live in the U.S., but he did.

I think Toyota learned a very valuable lesson in all this. If something negative happens like this come across as a concerned company and show that you are doing everything in your power to fix it. Be proactive not defensive. Don't appear to blame it on something stupid like a floor mat not being right even if it is. They are the big guys in the auto world and everyone knows the media likes to build you up then knock you down.

TMW - 3-27-2010 at 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Cooke

Quote:

You would have to carry your own gas and maybe lots of it or a booster. I wonder what the effects are if 87 octane gas was used. I believe the engine is the same 4Liter V6 used in the Tacoma and other Toyota vehicles. My guess is you could use 87 instead of 91 but if you had a warranty problem it could become an issue.

I pulled a FJ and a chevy 4x4 and a MB SUV out of the snow yesterday in the mountains. I had a snowcat.

DianaT - 3-27-2010 at 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
you mean us? or the stock holders? or the toyoda's?

Clarity, clarity, clarity----not there is it. :biggrin:

TW,
You make some very good points---and yes, Mr. Toyoda did not have to appear in front of Congress, but it was a wise business decision on his part. And yes, I am sure they learned a very good lesson----and they handled it very poorly at first. Money far too often trumps the consideration of life.

In the long run, IMHO, it is yet another lesson of why the free market needs supervision and regulation. Even Adam Smith knew it. There is nothing wrong with business and profit, but when that evil side of human nature takes over, greed, money is all that counts. Be it controls over environmental issues, safety, or greed that destroys the lives of others, I believe it to be one of the primary functions of government---the protection of its citizens from external and internal threats.

I also agree that people should take personal responsibility for their own actions in many ways. If I trip over a lump in the sidewalk, it is because I am clumsy and not paying attention. I used to manage several commercial buildings for an investment company and we faced several stupid law suits.

However, when it comes to companies who are not paying attention to safety issues,(and Mr. Toyoda admitted quality control was down) or dumping hazardous waste into ground water, those things, IMHO, negate much of the personal responsibility.

Pintos? yikes, I remember that well. I owned one at the time, but it was the Pinto station wagon. It was not included in the recall, but the value dropped like a rock. Come to think of it, I also owned an old Pontiac Le Mans when problems with the steering were discovered, and VW Bug when for no real reason, they were suddenly out of favor, and now a Toyota!

Sometimes I wish I could go back to my very first car that I inherited from my older sister. It was an old 49 four door-- well at least three of them worked -- Plymouth blue and rust sedan with a fuzzy headliner where my friends signed their names. And with every 50 cents worth of gas I put in it, I also added a quart of 10 reclaimed oil. But it kept running. And since my sister had paid $85.00 for it, it was not a big loss when it finally died. :biggrin:

fishingmako - 3-27-2010 at 03:32 PM

Diana showing your age, you are so right those good old cars ran well, and never had any problems to speak of.
I had a 53 Chevy totaly cusomized, lowered, chopped, channeled. all I ever did was to put brushes in the??? I forgot the name, not a alternator that is the new name, anyway that is funny you mentioned oil, I used reclaimed oil @ .10/ quart. those were the good olod days.

DianaT - 3-27-2010 at 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishingmako
Diana showing your age, you are so right those good old cars ran well, and never had any problems to speak of.
I had a 53 Chevy totaly cusomized, lowered, chopped, channeled. all I ever did was to put brushes in the??? I forgot the name, not a alternator that is the new name, anyway that is funny you mentioned oil, I used reclaimed oil @ .10/ quart. those were the good olod days.

Well, my car was the oldest car of any of my friends---all my friends learned to drive a stick shift in it ---the old three speed on the column under the steering wheel that was as big as a flying saucer. But, yes, I am old :biggrin:

Loved the old bottles that 10cent oil came in. Made it real easy to fill er up.

Now my older brother ended up with a car I wish I still had. It was 1957 Green Impala that he had pin striped and reupholstered with Tuck and Roll in Tijuana. I think I was allowed to touch it just once. :lol:

[Edited on 3-27-2010 by DianaT]

fishingmako - 3-27-2010 at 04:25 PM

Yes that was great the old oil bottles, they are worth a good amount now, I saw some a while back at a Antique show pretty pricy as any Antiques, ROY ROGERS, GENE AUTRY, LONG RANGER, and more lunch pails worth around $350.00 each now if it has a thermos and all in good shape it will bring upwards of $550.00 + amazing. Antiques are priceless.

My 53 Chevy had tuck and roll was like piano keys, chrome garnish rails, carpet to match, all done in TJ the good old Days, Kiss them Goodbye.

David K - 3-28-2010 at 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Cooke

Quote:

Hi Ken,

The A-TRAC (Active Traction Control) works very well, and in some ways is superior to lockers... The system (like a locker) matches wheel rotation on each axle when one tire loses traction... However... it will allow the tires to rotate seperatly for turning on tight trails. A locker has no such ability and tends to make the vehicle track straight ahead... and that could be a prblem on a narrow road. A-TRAC works in Low range only, as does the Tacoma's rear locker (which is still included, but may never be needed with A-TRAC).

In High Range, we now have TRAC... the same hydraulic booster that runs A-TRAC works on TRAC in 4WD and with the AUTO LSD in 2WD (works like Posi-Traction)... both tires get power per axle, unless one looses traction... Torque is diverted to the tire with traction... and that prevents digging a hole by spinning in loose sand/ mud/ snow as would otherwise happen with open differentials (pre- 2009) Tacomas.

I did a write up on these various traction choices we have with the 4WD Off Road TRD Tacoma (9 drive modes) because many Tacoma owners don't know or understand what they have when they get teir new Tacoma... The owners manual and salesmen don't do a good job of explaining how they work... See these threads at TacomaWorld.com:

Tacoma's TRAC, AUTO LSD, A-TRAC Explained

David K - 3-28-2010 at 03:53 PM

Quote:

Here is a photo that Curt emailed me today... I did photo shop it, as it was pretty dark (gloomy Pacific side of Baja)! :light:

Curt63 - 3-29-2010 at 02:14 PM

Thanks DK. I've got to be careful as this pic was taken at Woody's secret sisters place. Thanks for the photoshop and repost.

David K - 3-29-2010 at 05:33 PM

Notice, I said "gloomy" Pacific side!!! :lol:

Bring on the sunshine and warm water... (Gulf of) California, here I come!

TMW - 4-1-2010 at 11:08 AM

Read in the paper this morning that Toyota sales were up 40% in March.

805gregg - 4-7-2010 at 05:30 PM

Read in the paper Toyota fined 16 million for not coming forward with safety problems. Also Toyota executive sent email stating that Toyota needed to come clean on the safety problems.

David K - 4-7-2010 at 09:25 PM

Glad the great majority of Toyota owners will never have a problem... Have you seen the graph of car makes that shows the most reports of unintended acceleration was reported by FORD owners?

Makes a difference on who gets showcased on the news if your labor union donated to your election or not! :light:

Bajaboy - 4-7-2010 at 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Glad the great majority of Toyota owners will never have a problem... Have you seen the graph of car makes that shows the most reports of unintended acceleration was reported by FORD owners?

Makes a difference on who gets showcased on the news if your labor union donated to your election or not! :light:

DK-I thought you said it was the floor mats?

David K - 4-8-2010 at 07:28 AM

Floor Mats...

That was the 'recall' on my 2010 Tacoma... which was sold to me without floor mats... and the floor mat recall was only because of that San Diego Lexus dealer's loaner car having TWO floor mats on the driver's side... which is what caused the pedal to get hung up and killed the family in Santee.

I took the mats out of my 2005 and put them in my 2010. There is nothing wrong with the factory supplied floor mats... but the clearance to the gas pedal wasn't designed for two mats... duh!

durrelllrobert - 4-8-2010 at 09:04 AM

Quote:

Makes a difference on who gets showcased on the news if your labor union donated to your election or not! :light:

All toyota plants in the US are non-unoin factories :lol:

DianaT - 4-8-2010 at 09:39 AM

Quote:

Let's see, this is an AP story taken from your favorite fake news station and it explains why they were fined as much.

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/04/07/toyota-warned-europe-accelerator-problem/

The scumbags at Toyota warned the dealers in Europe long before they came clean in the US----

So what labor union donated to Faux News, or surely they would not have reported it, right?

We still like our Toyota, but they are scumbags with little regard for human safety or life.

BTW---there might be 29 miners alive today if there had been a union to protect them from the "business decision" to pay fines for safety violations rather than fix the problems.

TMW - 4-8-2010 at 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by durrelllrobert
Makes a difference on who gets showcased on the news if your labor union donated to your election or not! :light:

All toyota plants in the US are non-unoin factories :lol:

Wasn't the plant in LA area union? It was a joint plant with GM they are closing. It made some Tacomas and corollas, I don't recall what the GM vehicles were.

durrelllrobert - 4-8-2010 at 10:29 AM

Quote:

Wasn't the plant in LA area union? It was a joint plant with GM they are closing. It made some Tacomas and corollas, I don't recall what the GM vehicles were.

maybe the GM employees were union :?:

k-rico - 4-8-2010 at 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
and the floor mat recall was only because of that San Diego Lexus dealer's loaner car having TWO floor mats on the driver's side

That's simply not true.

"April 8 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp. knew about flaws that could cause unintended acceleration more than 3 1/2 years before it recalled cars and trucks to fix the defects, according to company timelines.

Toyota, the world’s largest automaker, learned that floor mats could entrap accelerator pedals as early as Feb. 7, 2006, and that pedals could stick five months later, according to documents dated March 24 that were submitted the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and obtained today."

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-08/toyota-documents...

David K - 4-8-2010 at 09:46 PM

There are other recalls, for other models... I was responding to the comment about the floor mat 'recall'. As for being more precise, this thread is about Tacomas... no recalls on Tacomas other than the one to check that you have only the correct one factory floor mat correctly achored to the floor hooks.

The 'unintended' acceleration that killed the CHP's family in Santee was not a Tacoma, and it was not his car, but a Lexus dealership loaner Lexus... A previous customer had complained about the gas pedal getting caught on the mat... That Lexus dealer did nothing... It is THEY and not Toyota to blame in that case. Take you anger out on the San Diego Lexus dealership responsible for have two floor mats on the driver's side and not correcting a reported problem with that!

Until the facts were all in, Toyota immediately had all floor mats removed from all models! Talk about quick action until the fact of the case were in!

I got my 2010 in December, it had no mats... I put my '05 mats in (they didn't care I took them out of my old truck, two days after I made the deal, and probably wouldn't have used them anyway).

skippermike - 4-9-2010 at 08:34 AM

Not to get in the middle of union bashing or Toyota corporate bashing ... I have a 2008 Tacoma, which was built at the joint Toyota-GM plant in Fremont.
Great truck, with a bunch of highway and off road road miles in Baja. Like it better than my Ford.
It came with Toyota floor mats, securely anchored in place. When I got the recall, I called the dealer. When I said my mats seemed fine, and were attached to the mounting clips, they said "You're OK, just don't put all-weather mats on top of the factory mats, they might not clear the accellerator". Seems straight forward to me. I agree, this time, with David.

TMW - 4-9-2010 at 09:06 AM

NUMMI
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc. (NUMMI) was an automobile manufacturing plant in Fremont, California, opened in 1984 and closed in 2010. NUMMI was established at the site of a former GM site that had been closed two years earlier. GM and Toyota reopened the factory as a joint venture in 1984 to manufacture vehicles to be sold under both brands.[1] GM pulled out of the venture in June 2009, and several months later Toyota announced plans to pull out by March 2010.[2][3] At 9.40am on April 1, 2010, the plant produced its last car, a red Toyota Corolla S believed to be destined for a museum in Japan,[4] and 4,500 people lost their jobs.[5][6]

GM saw the joint venture as an opportunity to learn about lean manufacturing from the Japanese company, while Toyota gained its first manufacturing base in North America and a chance to implement its production system in an American labor environment.

During its lifetime, NUMMI built an average of 6000 vehicles a week, or nearly eight million cars and trucks.[5][6]

Facility

The plant spanned the equivalent of about 88 football fields, and was configured into a main building that does the final assembly of vehicles and five facilities:

Plastics facility fabricating bumpers, instrument panels, interior panels, and others;
Stamping facility that fabricates all visible sheet metal parts;
Welding facility that assembles all metallic parts into one rigid unit; and
Two paint facilities, one for passenger vehicles and another for truck cabs.

Employees

At one point[when?]. employment was nearly 5,500 workers. NUMMI employees were represented by The International, United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of America (UAW) Local 2244.

Models produced

The first model NUMMI produced was the Chevrolet Nova (1984–1988). This was following by the Geo Prizm (1989–1997), the Chevrolet Prizm (1998–2002) and the Hilux (1991–1995, predecessor of the Tacoma), as well as the Toyota Voltz, the Japanese right-hand drive version of the Pontiac Vibe. Both of the latter are based on the Toyota Matrix.

Production of the Pontiac Vibe hatchback was discontinued in August 2009 as GM phased out the Pontiac brand.[7]

Beginning in September 2009, the NUMMI plant produced the Toyota Corolla compact car and Toyota Tacoma pickup truck.

History
Background

The factory which NUMMI took over was built by General Motors and operated by them from 1962 to 1982.[1] The idea of reopening the plant emerged out of the need that GM had to build high-quality and profitable small cars and the need Toyota had to start building cars in the United States, a requirement due to the possibility of import restrictions by the U.S. Congress.[5

Icing on the cake... The worst made cars list is out!

David K - 4-12-2010 at 12:41 PM

The full story link:
http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/07/worst-made-cars-lifestyle-v...

(note the refrences to Toyota, in BOLD )

With a 22% improvement in sales last month, and despite the six-month, $4.3-billion loss it announced Wednesday, General Motors is likely to have its strongest spring and summer in years. Plus, the automaker had critically acclaimed new products at the recent New York Auto Show and the much-anticipated Chevrolet Volt is due out this fall.

Year-over-year sales of GM's Cadillac division alone are up almost 76%; sales in the Buick, Chevrolet and GMC divisions were each up more than 40% for March. The industry as a whole was up 24.3%.

Unfortunately just because GM's cars are selling well now doesn't mean they're the best bet for durability or value--yet. It'll take awhile before GM's new direction shows up in tangible new products at the dealership.

In Depth: Worst-Made Cars On The Road

Four of the seven vehicles on our list of the worst-made cars on the road come from GM brands. And all of the cars on the list--including Chrysler's Dodge Nitro and Jeep Wrangler--are made by Detroit's Big Three. Only one car on the list is made by Ford Motor

Behind the Numbers
To determine our list of the worst-made cars on the road, we started with the lowest-rated vehicles from four reliability and performance studies conducted this year. Those studies are all from Consumer Reports: The Most Reliable Cars Report; Best and Worst Values Report; Best and Worst Safety Performance Survey; and the CR overall scores for 2010 vehicles.

We then added to the list any vehicles that received fewer than three out of five power circles in this year's Vehicle Dependability Study from J.D. Power and Associates. Any car, truck or SUV named among the worst in at least three of those five total studies made the final cut to be on the "Worst-Made" list.

The biggest surprise on the list, given recent automotive news: It includes NO TOYOTA made vehicles. In fact, Toyota reported a 40.7% gain in sales last month over March 2009; its Lexus division was up 42%. (Generous buyer incentives greatly contributed to those numbers.) And although Consumer Reports has removed its "recommended pick" distinction from Toyota vehicles involved in the current recall, many analysts are standing by their previous assessments of Toyota's well-made products.

"Toyota and Lexus both were fairly steady on their quality" in the dependability report released last month, says Dave Sargent, J.D. Power's vice president of global vehicle research. "Toyota has both good quality and a high consumer perception of their quality--so Toyota is very much in line."

GM's Chevrolet hasn't fared as well. Overall sales at Chevrolet are up, but sales of the $16,985 Chevrolet Colorado were down 21.9% year-over-year. Sales of the truck are down 32.2% for the year to date.

The $11,965 Chevrolet Aveo made our list too--but probably won't in the very near future. When the 2012 Aveo comes out next year, it'll feature styling improvements (large vents in the front, 19'' wheels, circular headlights) and performance upgrades (likely a 1.4-liter, four-cylinder turbo-boosted engine with 138 horsepower and a six-speed manual transmission). Early photos and speculation from experts like Jake Fisher, the senior automotive engineer at Consumer Reports, indicate it'll hold its own against Nissan's ( NSANY - news - people ) Versa and Honda's ( HMC - news - people ) Fit--two reliable, affordable, strong sellers.

Tough Trucks?
Aside from the Aveo, though, most of the worst-made cars on our list aren't cars at all--they're trucks and SUVs. Besides the Colorado, GMC's $16,985 Canyon and Ford's $28,020 F-250 received some of the lowest scores of any vehicles we considered. The Canyon SLE, for instance, was listed by Consumer Reports as one of the worst values of any 2010 vehicle and as one of the least reliable new vehicles on the market this year. It received just two out of five power circles on J.D. Power's overall dependability rating.

The F-250 Lariat earned both the "worst value" and "worst safety performance" distinctions from Consumer Reports this year. It received an overall score of just 37 out of 100 points for predicted reliability, fuel economy, depreciation, ride, owner costs, accident avoidance, front-seat comfort, acceleration and owner satisfaction.

But in the past they have fallen behind in engineering upgrades and safety improvements, because automakers focus on improving "family-oriented" vehicles first, says Russ Rader, a director at the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. "They're just being updated at a slower rate."

Jamie Hresko, the vice president of global quality for General Motors, says that’s not the case anymore--and consumers can expect to see tangible changes as soon as they get in the car.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DianaT - 4-12-2010 at 02:02 PM

So???? Even if they were the best built cars and trucks ever, the owners are still scumbags and their behavior indefensible.

Cypress - 4-12-2010 at 02:07 PM

This topic has become cumbersome.

Barry A. - 4-12-2010 at 02:41 PM

--------personality clashes are getting old, too. Somewhere back in this thread were very decent and honest non-hate-filled posts about the subject at hand by the very folks that somehow can't contain themselves when directly responding to those they don't like-------very tedious and time consuming, for the rest of us, tho.

:yawn:

Barry

DianaT - 4-12-2010 at 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
--------personality clashes are getting old, too. Somewhere back in this thread were very decent and honest non-hate-filled posts about the subject at hand by the very folks that somehow can't contain themselves when directly responding to those they don't like-------very tedious and time consuming, for the rest of us, tho.

:yawn:

Barry

If you are referring to my last post, it seriously had nothing to do with my complete lack of respect for any individual. It had to do with the defending of the scumbags with reports of how good the vehicles are.

There are others around here that I consider friends and they disagree with me over this one---that is OK.

But while some will continue to think that what happened was political, and Toyota was wronged, I will continue to believe that the owners are scumbags with little or no regard for human life, safety, nor concern for the consumer. It is not just the latest incident, but we personally have been affected by something that should have been recalled, and was not-----twice in the last few years.

So, we still enjoy our Toyotas for now, but will probably not buy another one in the future.

But as Cypress said, it is now cumbersome and should die----it is running in a circle.

And you are definitely entitled to your opinion about what has happened, as is everyone.

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