BajaNomad - Is the U.S. doing enough to help dying Juarez?

Is the U.S. doing enough to help dying Juarez?

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JESSE - 3-18-2010 at 11:49 AM

Thursday, March 18, 2010

THE BRUTAL slaying of three people connected to the U.S. consulate in Juarez, Mexico, last weekend has called attention to a crisis that is getting too little attention and resources in Washington: Mexico's desperate battle against drug traffickers. For Juarez, and for the democratic government of Felipe Calderón, this has become a fight for survival -- a war as bloody and as important as those being fought in Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan. But though Mexican stability is a vital interest of the United States, the federal government's investment in the problem is far below what it should be, on both sides of the border.

The assassination-style killing of the two Americans and a Mexican married to a consular employee as they drove home from a children's birthday party was shocking -- but no more so than scores of other incidents in Juarez. The city of 1.3 million, which is adjacent to El Paso, Tex., has suffered 500 murders so far this year -- and 2,600 in 2009. This is in spite of the deployment of 10,000 troops in the city by Mr. Calderón, who declared war on the drug traffickers after taking office in 2006. Juarez is dying: Thousands of shops have closed, and as many as 200,000 people have fled the city.

The good news here is that security cooperation between the United States and Mexico has improved enormously during Mr. Calderón's tenure. The Merida initiative, launched by the Bush administration, has provided $1.3 billion in aid since 2008, including the supply of helicopters, scanners and other equipment for Mexican security forces. But the bad news is that the aid has been painfully slow in coming -- the Mexicans are still waiting for Blackhawk helicopters -- and now it is set to decline. The Obama administration is proposing $310 million in aid for Mexico in next year's budget, down 30 percent from current levels.
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Administration officials say that the aid decline is sensible because Mexico has obtained funding for the expensive equipment it needs. A new four-pronged architecture for Merida has been drawn up that adds police and judicial training, border projects, and the promotion of civil society and human rights to the original focus on attacking drug gangs and their leaders. The new programs are to be ratified next week at a bilateral cabinet meeting in Mexico that will be attended by a host of senior U.S. officials, including Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates.

The broadening of the Merida program is logical. Mr. Calderón has recognized that military force alone will not save Juarez, and in any case the Mexican army and Congress remain cautious about further expanding such collaboration with the United States. Still, given that the level of violence is still rising, the sharp reduction in U.S. assistance makes little sense. The United States should be doing everything that Mexico will allow it to do to aid its security forces. It also should be doing more on the U.S. side of the border. While the Obama administration has taken some steps to crack down on the trafficking of guns to Mexico, most of the guns of the drug gangs still come from the United States.

The administration has an abundance of foreign challenges. But it's hard to think of a higher priority than stabilizing a neighbor and major trading partner. The Obama administration and Congress should be expanding, not cutting back, funding for the Merida initiative.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03...

sancho - 3-18-2010 at 12:18 PM

Ran across an article on blueroadrunner, the San Felipe
site, stating a novel suggestion, at least to me, of
stemming the Mex Cartel influence. Only when the DEA
was sucessful at elimating the So American drug
route up thru the Carribean, did the favored route change
to Mexico. The article outlines legalizing Marijuana
in the US, and relaxing the enforcement in the Carribean,
thus causing the So American cartels to again began
using the Carribean. It would 'destablize' some Carribean
Isles, but possibly taking the clout out of the Mex Cartels
and hopefully end some of the Cartel violence

Hook - 3-18-2010 at 12:41 PM

Someone posted on a San Carlos board that the FBI has tentatively concluded that those three slayings were a case of mistaken identity and the victims were not targeted by virtue of their consular ties. I find that hard to believe as they were two separate incidents.

Anybody seen a news article claiming this?

[Edited on 3-18-2010 by Hook]

DENNIS - 3-18-2010 at 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Is the U.S. doing enough to help dying Juarez?

Mexico won't allow too much overt assistance, soverignty and all. There should be so many Drones flying overhead they would look like a flock of geese.

Bajahowodd - 3-18-2010 at 12:51 PM

It may be a conclusion drawn by the poster coming from an FBI statement that was quoted in the press that basically said there have been past mistakes made where the wrong individuals have been targeted, so as of the time of their statement, they were not prepared to consider it a targeted attack on US personnel. Just guessing.

k-rico - 3-18-2010 at 12:59 PM

Mistaken identity blamed for drugs hit on US staff

But nobody really knows, yet.

DENNIS - 3-18-2010 at 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
Mistaken identity blamed for drugs hit on US staff

But nobody really knows, yet.

I wonder if the car had one of those Consulate license plates.

Bajahowodd - 3-18-2010 at 01:14 PM

Is it just me, or does that article just continue the speculation? I do not see anyone at the FBI directly quoted to support the headline.

Woooosh - 3-18-2010 at 01:15 PM

I don't think anyone outside of Mexico can help at this point. As you have pointed out- the political parties at the top levels are involved with the drug gangs. Once a political party with drug ties wins the election, they get the Military too. You have a ruling party aligned with a narco group with the military to back it up. Everything goes downhill fast from there, especially when the gang you are supposed to control doesn't respect you and the other gangs are against you and the gang you are protecting with your Military. With the #1 drug guy being a billionaire on the Forbes Rich List, there's no shortage of drug money to fuel and refuel the fire. And that's the problem- not the drugs, the money.

Even if Mexico had the will to cleanse itself from top down, it doesn't have the judicial system in place to fairly and transparently deal with it. Those reforms are still four years away while the lawyers are being trained for open courts and verbal arguments.

Mexico needs to have it both ways to keep remittances flowing south. They want their people to be able to move freely north, yet complain when guns return through the cracks south. They blame the USA for being the consumers, but really need the drug money to come back south to support the political system as it is.

Mexico has the ability to stop the flow of people north- it does that effectively on the southern border with Guatemala. What is doesn't have is a reason to do it. They need their people to go north and for the drug money to come south. While the border is porous, the drugs go north and guns come south too. You can't fix just half the problem.

IMHO, the only way to solve the problem is to stop the money flow. Triple fence the whole border. Money can't come south if the drugs don't flow north. If you legalize drugs in the USA- you still have the money coming back south to feed the corrupt political system. Mexicans need jobs and Americans need jobs. If you needed a million fence-builders, they would be there tomorrow on both sides of the border for a lot less money than the USA just flushed down the toilet trying to do it electronically. If you intercepted more of the drug money flowing south that would help pay for the fencing project too.

Juarez should have an earthquake

Dave - 3-18-2010 at 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Is the U.S. doing enough to help dying Juarez?

Then the money would pour in. :rolleyes:

Hook - 3-18-2010 at 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Is it just me, or does that article just continue the speculation? I do not see anyone at the FBI directly quoted to support the headline.

It is not just you.

I think the headline definitely doesnt fit the quote attributed to the FBI spokesman. The FBI has reached no conclusion, unlike the writer of the headline. Probably some editor; reporters sometimes dont write their own headlines. Talk about journalistic license.

Typical.

Woooosh - 3-18-2010 at 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Is it just me, or does that article just continue the speculation? I do not see anyone at the FBI directly quoted to support the headline.

The Mexican Ambassador, Arturo Sarukhan (interesting Mexican name) on CNN Wolf Blitzer. He said: "These three individuals who were associated with the US consulate in Cuidad Juarez were not necessarily targeted because they were working for the consulate."

The man killed alone was being followed by his wife in a second car. She got out right away and pleaded with the shooter to stop because her children were inside. They didn't stop shooting at the man- but they didn't finish off the kids or her either. yet.

[Edited on 3-18-2010 by Woooosh]

Bajahowodd - 3-18-2010 at 03:50 PM

Speaking of interesting Mexican names, try Carlos Slim Helu. Fact is that a surprisingly large number of the oligarch class in Mexico came from elsewhere. It sometimes appears to be two different countries.

Wondering

k-rico - 3-18-2010 at 04:08 PM

The killing of Enrique Camarena.

How much does that play into today's horrendous situation?

Is today's violence the result of the US getting into another country's business? Like much of the other violent situations over the past 50 years.

Did the actions of the US, including money sent to Mex in addition to police support, destabilize the situation, causing these turf wars?

It's clear that drug business is based upon supply and demand. Americans demand, Mexico supplies. Without demand, no drug wars at the border, but the US goes after the agents of supply, not the real cause, the American demand.

Bajahowodd - 3-18-2010 at 04:18 PM

Perhaps the train has long ago left the station, but the fact is that many countries around the world are not shy about speaking of American imperialism. Americans, on the other hand use all sort of other euphemisms. Maybe the US has just had too much money and power, as well as making profit a primary goal in virtually every endeavor, and allowed itself to become insensitive to the people and problems elsewhere. Before I get jumped for being anti-American, please understand that is not the case. Even the best of souls, can go astray.

Hook - 3-18-2010 at 04:34 PM

"These three individuals who were associated with the US consulate in Cuidad Juarez were not necessarily targeted because they were working for the consulate."

What a meaningless statement, in the absence of any evidence.

k-rico - 3-18-2010 at 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
"These three individuals who were associated with the US consulate in Cuidad Juarez were not necessarily targeted because they were working for the consulate."

What a meaningless statement, in the absence of any evidence.

That's true but there seems to be an effort by the news folks to quash the assumption that these people were killed because they worked for the US Gov. until some facts are known.

I thinks that's why statements like these are being made.

Nobody knows yet but I think we'll find out soon. The cops seem to know that it was the Aztecas gang and they are rounding them up in El Paso. They're originally an American prison gang that now operates on both sides of the border,

[Edited on 3-18-2010 by k-rico]

Bajahowodd - 3-18-2010 at 04:47 PM

And one of those killed worked at the El Paso prison. Hmmm. Lotsa mierda goes on inside, no?

k-rico - 3-18-2010 at 04:50 PM

Yeah, that could be relevant. Lots of angles. But these killings are definitely not cartel style stuff. But styles change.

Bajahowodd - 3-18-2010 at 05:05 PM

Sounds like a reality TV series in the making. eh?

DENNIS - 3-18-2010 at 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Speaking of interesting Mexican names, try Carlos Slim Helu.

Reflects the Moorish influence on Spain in the Crusades.
Think about...Every Mexican other than the Indigenous have a touch of the Taliban in their blood.

DENNIS - 3-18-2010 at 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Is today's violence the result of the US getting into another country's business?

Complete, unmitigated b***s***. Their business is our business. We have allowed our step-child to run amok.

[Edited on 3-19-2010 by BajaNomad]

k-rico - 3-18-2010 at 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Is today's violence the result of the US getting into another country's business?

Complete, unmitigated b***s***. Their business is our business. We have allowed our step-child to run amok.

step-child? another bad marriage, eh? maybe soltero is best

[Edited on 3-19-2010 by BajaNomad]

Woooosh - 3-18-2010 at 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
Yeah, that could be relevant. Lots of angles. But these killings are definitely not cartel style stuff. But styles change.

Azteca is reporting one of the assassins is on the FBI's top ten list and has had a $100K reward on his head for the past 11 years. Eduardo Ravelo alias "El Tablas" is in the"Aztecas" gang. His pic is in top right corner of wanted poster. I'll bet this is the gang and person who will soon go down for the killings.

http://www.frontera.info/EdicionenLinea/Notas/Internacional/...

Dave - 3-18-2010 at 05:25 PM

Don't know about step-child but Mexico did make the conscious decision to become our 'pimp'.

I suppose there should be a consequence for that. :rolleyes:

DENNIS - 3-18-2010 at 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
step-child?

Yeah...Step-Child.
How much foreign aid have we dumped on Mexico in the last fifty years? They won't admit it, but they've been our dependent for a while.

Argue that !!!!!!!!!!!!

DENNIS - 3-18-2010 at 05:39 PM

When you're done arguing that...we'll talk about remittances.

DENNIS - 3-18-2010 at 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Don't know about step-child but Mexico did make the conscious decision to become our 'pimp'.

I suppose there should be a consequence for that. :rolleyes:

Pimp? You mean, "Dealer?"
Oh, yeah...there are consequences, for sure.

k-rico - 3-18-2010 at 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
step-child?

Yeah...Step-Child.
How much foreign aid have we dumped on Mexico in the last fifty years? They won't admit it, but they've been our dependent for a while.

Argue that !!!!!!!!!!!!

OK, that's easy, if foreign aid makes for step childern, the US probably has a couple hundred of them and if the amount is significant, Mexico is insignificant. Currently Israel, Iraq, and Afghanistan are our most significant step childern using your somewhat curious logic.

Next?

DENNIS - 3-18-2010 at 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
Next?

They're all step-children. We've just lost our parenting skills.

[Edited on 3-19-2010 by DENNIS]

k-rico - 3-18-2010 at 06:16 PM

Losing something implies you once possessed it.

No...

Dave - 3-18-2010 at 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Pimp? You mean, "Dealer?"

I pretty much meant 'pimp'.

'Dealer' is just a subset.

DENNIS - 3-18-2010 at 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
Losing something implies you once possessed it.

It's ludicrous to imagine the United States buying nothing. [Afganistan excluded]
We want...We pay...We recieve. It's the American way.

You didn't think the US was merely generous, didja?

Woooosh - 3-18-2010 at 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
step-child?

Yeah...Step-Child.
How much foreign aid have we dumped on Mexico in the last fifty years? They won't admit it, but they've been our dependent for a while.

Argue that !!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with that. IMO, One thing the USA does wrong is NOT planting her flag after each adoption.

DENNIS - 3-18-2010 at 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
I agree with that. IMO, One thing the USA does wrong is NOT planting her flag after each adoption.

We do. Believe me, we do. Sometime not deep enough, but it's in the ground.

Donjulio - 3-18-2010 at 06:53 PM

Grab your white sheets and hoods. Sounds like a few folks on here are having a cross burning tonight. Thank God you guys are sitting on bar stools instead of in the white house.

DENNIS - 3-18-2010 at 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
Grab your white sheets and hoods. Sounds like a few folks on here are having a cross burning tonight. Thank God you guys are sitting on bar stools instead of in the white house.

Pull your head out of it, jewelio. That brown stuff you taste is bad for your already demented common sense.
Racial issues, which you think you see here are far removed from international relations which we're discussing.
Maybe a few more night classes at the University Of Yuma will afford you a world-view that extends beyond the stalls in the local Boys Club restroom.

Debra - 3-18-2010 at 07:24 PM

JESSE, with all due respect, I just don't get the "is the US doing all it can do" and in answer to your question, yes, the news got all the way up to my local (Seattle) news outlet. I just don't know what you are rasking.......surely not for the US to invade Mexico and take ove,r I have several Ranger friends............want me to put a bug in their ear and send them down? It worked here in Tacoma a few years ago with the gang problem.....cleaned out the neighborhood from druggies.

DENNIS - 3-18-2010 at 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Debra
It worked here in Tacoma a few years ago with the gang problem.....cleaned out the neighborhood from druggies.

US Rangers cleaned out a neighborhood in Tacoma?
Explain, please.

Donjulio - 3-18-2010 at 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

No - I think you need to get real about who is behind the drug war and who it is really benefiting. You really are so closed and narrow minded you can't see the bigger picture.

Do you really think that there a handful of real bad asses that can out gun, out think, out fight, and out maneuver the intelligence of the DEA, FBI, CIA, NSA, and any other arms of the government?

Ignorance is bliss I guess. You guys are so busy watching the flag wave you don't see what they are doing with the pole. However you are starting to feel it though aren't you?

arrowhead - 3-18-2010 at 07:39 PM

I'm not following the logic of the title of this op-ed piece, "Is the U.S. doing enough to help dying Juarez?". The writer seems to have leaped over the first question, which should be, "SHOULD the U.S. be doing anything to help Juarez?" Once the writer established why he thinks we should, then he can delve into how much we should be doing. He has it as a foregone conclusion we should help Juarez. Why? Who are they to us? What is Juarez' strategic importance to the US? What can we do that Mexico cannot do?

If you want to see the absurdity in the title, just substitute another place for Juarez:

"Is the U.S. doing enough to help dying Iran?"
"Is the U.S. doing enough to help dying North Korea?"
"Is the U.S. doing enough to help dying Somali pirates?"

DENNIS - 3-18-2010 at 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio

No - I think you need to get real about who is behind the drug war and who it is really benefiting. You really are so closed and narrow minded you can't see the bigger picture.

Tell us all about it, jewels. I'm sure you're the only one that knows.

Quote:

Do you really think that there a handful of real bad burros that can out gun, out think, out fight, and out maneuver the intelligence of the DEA, FBI, CIA, NSA, and any other arms of the government?

Well...yes, I do. The dirt eating VC did it against everything we could throw at them. It was a matter of desire. Who has the strongest desire in this war?

Quote:

Ignorance is bliss I guess. You guys are so busy watching the flag wave you don't see what they are doing with the pole. However you are starting to feel it though aren't you?

Feel what? What are you talking about? You make no sense with your stupid, ignorant metaphores.

I told you before, jewels....if you want to go to war, you have to arm yourself. As it stands now, I could give you a map to an oven ten miles away and you would walk there and crawl in.

I'll send you some links to Amazon Books that will prep you for the future. It's just not fun doing this with the ill-prepared.

CHOW

Donjulio - 3-18-2010 at 10:20 PM

Dennis, people that think like you think are the reason the US is falling apart. Stay blind cause you've already bailed and from your bar stool it won't make any difference how bad it gets.

Donjulio - 3-18-2010 at 10:23 PM

BTW Dennis - people in ovens? That has been done before. Thats exactly the mentality I was referring to with the sheets.

Donjulio - 3-18-2010 at 10:46 PM

Send me your Amazon book links Dennis. Be glad to check them out. In the meantime here is a little reading list for you. I assume you can read?

Coletta Youngers, Eileen Rosin, ed (2005). Drugs and democracy in Latin America: the impact of U.S. policy. Lynne Rienner Publishers. pp. 206.

Rodney Stich (2007). Drugging America: A Trojan Horse. Silverpeak Enterprises. pp. 433–434. ISBN

c-ckburn, Alexander; Jeffrey St. Clair (1998). "9". Whiteout, the CIA, drugs and the press. New York: Verso. ISBN 1-85984-258-5.

Blum, William. "The CIA and Drugs: Just say "Why not?"". Third World Traveller. http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/CIADrugs_WBlum.html. Retrieved 30 January 2010.

Alfred W. McCoy, The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia

Alfred W. McCoy, "A Correspondence with the CIA, New York Review of Books 19:4 (21 September 1972).

"The Secret Team, Part IV: Visiting Vietnam", John Bacher, Peace Magazine Jun-Jul 1988,

Rodney Stich (2008). Defrauding America, Volume 1. Silverpeak Enterprises. pp. 381–384. ISBN 9780932438331

Joseph J. Trento (2005). The Secret History of the CIA. Carroll & Graf Publishers. pp. 345–347. ISBN 9780786715008.

Douglas Valentine (2004). The strength of the wolf: the secret history of America's war on drugs. Verso. pp. 419–420. ISBN 9781859845684.

9 November 1991 interview with Alfred McCoy, by Paul DeRienzo

p. 385 of The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade, by McCoy, with Cathleen B. Read and Leonard P. Adams II, 2003, ISBN 1-55652-483-8

"Crack the CIA" , winner of the 2003 Sundance Online Film Festival

New York Times Service, "Venezuelan general who led CIA program indicted," Dallas Morning News (26 November 1996) p. 6A.

Russ Kick, ed (2001). You are being lied to: the disinformation guide to media distortion, historical whitewashes and cultural myths. The Disinformation Company. pp. 132. ISBN 9780966410075.

c-ckburn, Alexander; Jeffrey St. Clair (1998). Whiteout: The CIA, Drugs and the Press. New York: Verso. pp. 287–290. ISBN 1859842585.

Buckley, Kevin (1991). Panama: The Whole Story. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-0671727949.

Rodney Stich (2008). Defrauding America, Volume 2. Silverpeak Enterprises. pp. 9–11. ISBN 9780932438195.

Woooosh - 3-18-2010 at 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
Dennis, people that think like you think are the reason the US is falling apart. Stay blind cause you've already bailed and from your bar stool it won't make any difference how bad it gets.

The USA was founded by revolutionaries and that spirit still runs deep. We still have the right to free speech and to bear arms. Mexico was conquered by the Spanish and it would seem from recent events, has gone almost nowhere politically since. We'll be just fine up there, don't worry- but thanks.

Mexico would improve faster if some of the professional and highly-educated Mexicans living in the USA would simply return to their hometowns for a few years and do some community service to nudge it along.

Donjulio - 3-18-2010 at 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Why don't you watch these and tell me about the revolutionary spirit and the US and how free it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F4IGwuKdUQ

Please make sure you watch all 3 before commenting.

And heres how close you are to losing your right to bear arms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTMq0C0OKNg&feature=relat...

Time to wake up.

[Edited on 3-19-2010 by Donjulio]

Debra - 3-18-2010 at 11:18 PM

Arrowhead, let's not leave Darfur off your list

Dennis, In answer to your question about the Rangers cleaning up their neighborhood, Fort Lewis is just a few miles from Tacoma (remember, this was several years ago) the 'hill top' area was cheap to live, so not knowing the area several Rangers moved there, not knowing about the gangs, drugs and whatever else was going on in therir neighborhood this had been festering for awhile, duggies on their corners near their children they decided to 'clean it up'...........so they decided to arm themselves and went out into the street and confront the bad guys. shots were fired, no one killed, the police didn't arrest anyone (the Rangers had called them before hand informing them what they were goingg to do...the police wanted no part of it I guess.) The result was, that a neighborhood of 100yr. old beautiful homes were again safe for children to play outside....not so anymore...the Rangers are gone and the idiots are back.

mtgoat666 - 3-19-2010 at 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
CHOW

dennis, it is spelled "ciao," knucklehead.

DENNIS - 3-19-2010 at 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
CHOW

dennis, it is spelled "ciao," knucklehead.

I know how to spell it, but I was hungry. :lol:

By the way...doesn't the i need one of these í ?

CÍAO

[Edited on 3-19-2010 by DENNIS]

DENNIS - 3-19-2010 at 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Debra
The result was, that a neighborhood of 100yr. old beautiful homes were again safe for children to play outside....not so anymore...the Rangers are gone and the idiots are back.

Sounds like a really effective "Neighborhood Watch Program." It's a shame it couldn't be replicated today without "gangbanger rights" becoming an issue.

DENNIS - 3-19-2010 at 10:19 AM

Quote:

That's right. I did my part and paid my dues. The rest is up to heros like you who want people to act like brainless cows.
Don't you have a recommendation for a primer on "going through life without a thought of your own?"

arrowhead - 3-19-2010 at 10:57 AM

Dennis, help me out. I seem to have lost my tally sheet. Is this the 4th or the 5th time DonJulio has left and then come back?
:biggrin:

Woooosh - 3-19-2010 at 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Nah. Pointing fingers is a deception used by ignorant people and countries too ugly to look at themselves honestly in the mirror. Nice try though. Come back down to your country and help your people fast- because Mexico is going down the tubes... and not the YouTubes. Failed state in everything but name right now.

My family in Torreon says the worst drug violence has even spread to there - with a gift-wrapped severed head found in their neighborhood. The police force, brave men and women that they are, have gone on strike and threaten to quit rather than get shot at. Not a revolutionary drop of blood among them. What a mess I'll take the land of the free and the home of the brave when it hits the fan thanks.

Mexico needs more Mexi-cans and less Mexi-can'ts. JMO.

[Edited on 3-19-2010 by Woooosh]

Donjulio - 3-19-2010 at 11:20 AM

Thats what I figured. Between you three you cant come up with an intelligent and logical argument against anything that was presented. Also I am sure that you didn't look any of it up, research it or watch the information. Too bad.

Dennis says "I paid my part and paid my dues". What a crock! Talk about not taking responsibility. Wow.

Thats OK though. And woosh - seems to me like it's you guys that are continuously pointing fingers.

Arrowhead - seems you can't count too well. But that's OK.

Now the playground is getting fun.

DENNIS - 3-19-2010 at 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead
Dennis, help me out. I seem to have lost my tally sheet. Is this the 4th or the 5th time DonJulio has left and then come back?
:biggrin:

I don't know. It's like a silent encore. :lol:

Donjulio - 3-19-2010 at 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by arrowhead
Dennis, help me out. I seem to have lost my tally sheet. Is this the 4th or the 5th time DonJulio has left and then come back?
:biggrin:

I don't know. It's like a silent encore. :lol:

Well I guess if you can't intelligently debate then changing the subject will work. Maybe you should have been one of those US politicians that you love so much. Anyway - done with this topic. Next!

Dave - 3-19-2010 at 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio Also I am sure that you didn't look any of it up, research it or watch the information. Too bad.

I viewed the links. What I can't figure out is what either the CIA or U.N. forces have to do with cartel violence in Mexico.

Why are Mexicans killing Mexicans? The CIA told them? They can't help themselves? What?

DENNIS - 3-19-2010 at 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
I viewed the links. What I can't figure out is what either the CIA or U.N. forces have to do with cartel violence in Mexico.

Why are Mexicans killing Mexicans? The CIA told them? They can't help themselves? What?

More conspiracy theory. Gunfire from the grassy knoll and all that nonsense.

Donjulio - 3-19-2010 at 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

More conspiracy theory. Gunfire from the grassy knoll and all that nonsense.

This is exactly the ignorance that the government and conspirators count on and the ignorance that guarantees the problem will never be solved.

DENNIS - 3-19-2010 at 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio

This is exactly the ignorance that the government and conspirators count on and the ignorance that guarantees the problem will never be solved.

How many rolls of tinfoil do you use to make a hat? :lol:

OK, then...

Dave - 3-19-2010 at 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
This is exactly the ignorance that the government and conspirators count on and the ignorance that guarantees the problem will never be solved.

I'm an idiot.

Explain it to me.

Outline the conspiracy and the problem and how you think it should be solved.

And please, no links.

Woooosh - 3-19-2010 at 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
Thats what I figured. Between you three you cant come up with an intelligent and logical argument against anything that was presented. Also I am sure that you didn't look any of it up, research it or watch the information. Too bad.

Dennis says "I paid my part and paid my dues". What a crock! Talk about not taking responsibility. Wow.

Thats OK though. And woosh - seems to me like it's you guys that are continuously pointing fingers.

Arrowhead - seems you can't count too well. But that's OK.

Now the playground is getting fun.

Tell ya what. You write Calderon a letter and encourage him to reverse the Mexican brain drain. Ask every Mexican with higher education and advanced skills to come home and save their country. The uneducated, undocumented Mexicans can stay in the USA for now. Mexico needs the remittances and there are jobs Americans just won't do.

When people from every nation stop clawing over each other to gain entry to the USA- then I will worry it's not the best place to be. Not saying it's perfect by any means but people vote for a better future for themselves, their children and their families with their feet, no their mouths..

Woooosh - 3-19-2010 at 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Speaking of interesting Mexican names, try Carlos Slim Helu.

Reflects the Moorish influence on Spain in the Crusades.
Think about...Every Mexican other than the Indigenous have a touch of the Taliban in their blood.

Uh oh. The Moors were a black race from northern Africa. They intermarried with Sicilians too- which gives Sicilians that beautiful deep brown skin tone. Are you implying Mexicans... nah.

[Edited on 3-19-2010 by Woooosh]

Donjulio - 3-19-2010 at 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio

This is exactly the ignorance that the government and conspirators count on and the ignorance that guarantees the problem will never be solved.

How many rolls of tinfoil do you use to make a hat? :lol:

Insults are not a very good substitute for intelligence Dennis. You said you were prepared for this conversation and debate but apparently you can't provide substantial information to do so.

And Dave. The links are because some people want to cry conspiracy theory when this is common public knowledge that was revealed in house and senate hearings. The CIA has been found to have involvement in drug trafficking in:

Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia
Afganistan
Iran
Venezuela
Haiti
Pananma

So its a stretch to think they are behind Mexico too? Come on.

Sorry but heres another link - I think you will find this story really interesting. http://www.madcowprod.com/01162008.html

See I have no problem backing up my opinions.

Dave - 3-19-2010 at 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
So its a stretch to think they are behind Mexico too? Come on.

If the CIA is involved then please tell us...

why?

Bajahowodd - 3-19-2010 at 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Speaking of interesting Mexican names, try Carlos Slim Helu.

Reflects the Moorish influence on Spain in the Crusades.
Think about...Every Mexican other than the Indigenous have a touch of the Taliban in their blood.

What does Lebanon have to do with the Moors? Slim's family is from the Middle East.

As for the Moors, most folks don't realize they were Muslim, and at their peak, controlled a great deal of the civilized world. The Moors were not black, but were Arabic. For centuries, and even to a certain extent today, Spain appears to be different countries, what with Catalonia abutting North Africa.

As for the New World Order conspiracy cult crowd.....It was bad enough under Bush while the economy was still looking good. Sprinkle in a near-depression and a black president, and it tends to pump up the volume.

Woooosh - 3-19-2010 at 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Speaking of interesting Mexican names, try Carlos Slim Helu.

Reflects the Moorish influence on Spain in the Crusades.
Think about...Every Mexican other than the Indigenous have a touch of the Taliban in their blood.

you mean the "birthers"?

Woooosh - 3-19-2010 at 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio

This is exactly the ignorance that the government and conspirators count on and the ignorance that guarantees the problem will never be solved.

How many rolls of tinfoil do you use to make a hat? :lol:

I don't doubt the CIA has been involved in a great number of unsavory deals. The USA has befriended and turned against a many countries over the years. So what? Times and needs change. At least the USA has a CIA...

[Edited on 3-19-2010 by Woooosh]

Donjulio - 3-19-2010 at 01:20 PM

:biggrin:

Donjulio - 3-19-2010 at 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
So its a stretch to think they are behind Mexico too? Come on.

If the CIA is involved then please tell us...

why?

Are you freaking kidding me?????

Cryptic to a Fault

Bajahowodd - 3-19-2010 at 01:29 PM

There is one aspect to the drug trade that is actually self-serving and self-sustaining. That be the legions of folks involved directly or indirectly with the war on drugs. Just seems to me that uncountable numbers of folks make their livings, and in many cases, acquire huge profits from participating in the charade.

As for the CIA, not so much. They have other fish to fry and have to keep tabs on all the dirty laundry around the world.

DENNIS - 3-19-2010 at 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio

If the CIA is involved then please tell us...

why?

Are you freaking kidding me?????

Is that it? What do we have to do? Buy a vowel?

No, not kidding

Dave - 3-19-2010 at 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
So its a stretch to think they are behind Mexico too? Come on.

If the CIA is involved then please tell us...

why?

Are you freaking kidding me?????

What would be the CIA's interest in destabilizing a neighbor with whom we share close political, social and economic ties... not to mention a vast common border?

How does hurting Mexico help us?

What's the upside?

Woooosh - 3-19-2010 at 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
So its a stretch to think they are behind Mexico too? Come on.

If the CIA is involved then please tell us...

why?

Are you freaking kidding me?????

And Mexico is not a country the USA wants to put its flag on for sure... :saint:

Bajahowodd - 3-19-2010 at 02:04 PM

Actually, if you read some of the literature (and I use the term loosely) put out by the whacko conspiracy theorists, one of the first agenda items is to form a single nation on North America. So, I'm guessing that if you put on the moccasins and tin foil hats they wear, one might conclude that if Mexico implodes, it will be the reason that can be used to occupy it.

Woooosh - 3-19-2010 at 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
:biggrin:

Americans are well aware of the history. They most recent watched as Saddam Hussein went from darling to dangling. What's your reference point of truth and the correct path? Red China, Russia, Argentina, Chile, Venezuela, Rawanda, No one?

My American relatives argue about the current healthcare debate, my Mexican relatives argue if it's safe to leave the house with their city's police force on strike. One country is revolutionary by origin, the other is the opposite. The USA was even brave enough to fight their own civil war. Can you imagine that in Mexico where only one side has guns? Very different animals.

Mexico's system was perfectly fine for a third-world agrarian society- but the system doesn't work on the world stage... as you are seeing today in Juarez.

[Edited on 3-19-2010 by Woooosh]

Woooosh - 3-19-2010 at 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Actually, if you read some of the literature (and I use the term loosely) put out by the whacko conspiracy theorists, one of the first agenda items is to form a single nation on North America. So, I'm guessing that if you put on the moccasins and tin foil hats they wear, one might conclude that if Mexico implodes, it will be the reason that can be used to occupy it.

Didn't they try to give the USA Baja once and the USA didn't want it?

Don't worry about La Raza taking back their country. They don't want it either. La Raza held a huge convention in San Diego at the height of the Narco violence. Their #1 Emergency Topic was not the drug violence or Mexico slipping away to become a failed state. The #1 Topic was how the mortgage crisis is impacting Mexicans living in the USA... what mattered most to them was protecting their wealth. It's always about money.

Donjulio - 3-19-2010 at 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio

If the CIA is involved then please tell us...

why?

Are you freaking kidding me?????

Is that it? What do we have to do? Buy a vowel?

Pssst, Dennis, your ignorance is starting to show.

k-rico - 3-19-2010 at 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
So its a stretch to think they are behind Mexico too? Come on.

If the CIA is involved then please tell us...

why?

Are you freaking kidding me?????

Earth to gnukid, earth to gnukid, come in please......

Dave needs indoctrination.

Donjulio - 3-19-2010 at 03:07 PM

Its very interesting that with all the physical evidence and proof that exists to back up all of this, people still want to call it a conspiracy theory. That is exactly what they hope you continue to do. Take your meds, have a drink, watch the tv and get dumbed down more each day. That is exactly what they would like.

In the meantime they will continue to make trillions, while your attention is diverted to a lot of useless crap.

Donjulio - 3-19-2010 at 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
So its a stretch to think they are behind Mexico too? Come on.

If the CIA is involved then please tell us...

why?

Are you freaking kidding me?????

Dave, I know you don't like links but let this guy who actually destabilized countries for the US tell you why.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=808526880666247652#

Memo to k-rico

Bajahowodd - 3-19-2010 at 04:06 PM

Aawww. Come on. Do you really want to get that started? Your bad.

[Edited on 3-19-2010 by Bajahowodd]

k-rico - 3-19-2010 at 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Aawww. Come on. Do you really want to get that started? Your bad.

[Edited on 3-19-2010 by Bajahowodd]

Well the end of the 1st quarter is upon us and we haven't had the shadow government refresher course yet. Donjulio is on that wavelength, gnukid is the guru, and he's a joy to read. High bandwidth dude.

monoloco - 3-19-2010 at 10:47 PM

Back in the 80's I used to know a guy who was a bush pilot in Alaska, he would tell me all these fantastic stories about how he had run arms down into Nicaragua for the CIA and brought back plane loads of cocaine. I thought he was a complete wack job, the stories were so far fetched, then the Iran-Contra scandal was brought to light and I realized that everything he had told me jibed with what was later revealed.

DENNIS - 3-19-2010 at 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
Back in the 80's I used to know a guy who was a bush pilot in Alaska, he would tell me all these fantastic stories about how he had run arms down into Nicaragua for the CIA and brought back plane loads of cocaine. I thought he was a complete wack job, the stories were so far fetched, then the Iran-Contra scandal was brought to light and I realized that everything he had told me jibed with what was later revealed.

His name wasn't Mike, was it?

That's no reference to Capt. Mike here.

[Edited on 3-20-2010 by DENNIS]

monoloco - 3-19-2010 at 10:59 PM

No not Mike.

Woooosh - 3-20-2010 at 12:51 PM

How can you dismiss the supernatural powers of tinfoil like that? Of course pyramids are more powerful that tin foil. :lol:

From Wiki:

"A tin foil hat is a piece of headgear made from one or more sheets of aluminium foil or similar material. Alternatively it may be a conventional hat lined with foil. Some people wear the hats in the belief that they act to shield the brain from such influences as electromagnetic fields, or against mind control and/or mind reading; they also serve to attempt to limit the transmission of voices directly into the brain.

The concept of wearing a tin foil hat for protection from such threats has become a popular stereotype and term of derision; the phrase serves as a byword for paranoia and persecutory delusions, and is associated with conspiracy theorists."

[Edited on 3-20-2010 by Woooosh]

Donjulio - 3-20-2010 at 12:52 PM

Its getting easier to understand why the US is as messed up as it is.

Woooosh - 3-20-2010 at 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
Its getting easier to understand why the US is as messed up as it is.

Here's a schoolteacher quote for you DJ: "When you point one finger at somebody, the other four fingers are pointing right back at you." Are you smarter than a First Grader?

When 11 million Mexicans return home because the USA is more screwed-up than Mexico, we will go ice skating in hell.

DENNIS - 3-20-2010 at 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
You can't even mount reasonable and intelligent arguments against what I posted so you resort to name calling.

Nobody wants to get into a discussion that will agitate your Paranoid Schizophrenia, jewelio. We just have your best interest in mind so, put those ear-buds back in and drown out the voices. They're getting the best of you today.

arrowhead - 3-20-2010 at 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
Its getting easier to understand why the US is as messed up as it is.

Just image how bad it would be if you were still living in the US.

GrOUper-GAr - 3-20-2010 at 08:01 PM

http://www.zuguide.com/index.php#Idiocracy

SO ?

MrBillM - 3-22-2010 at 04:56 PM

Are we trying to Help Dying Juarez or help Juarez Die ?

I haven't got any problem with supplying people with Cocaine. I just think we should poison the Cocaine we supply them with.

Solve two problems at once.

Been done

Dave - 3-22-2010 at 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM

I just think we should poison the Cocaine we supply them with.

Haven't you heard?

The CIA added the AID's virus to crack.

Just ask DonJulio. :rolleyes:

nancyconroy - 3-22-2010 at 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
Its getting easier to understand why the US is as messed up as it is.

How many Mexicans have you ever seen ice skate?

DENNIS - 3-22-2010 at 07:30 PM

This should be good.

nancyconroy - 3-22-2010 at 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
This should be good.

Have you seen any Baja ice rinks Dennis?

JESSE - 3-22-2010 at 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nancyconroy

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
Its getting easier to understand why the US is as messed up as it is.

How many Mexicans have you ever seen ice skate?

Woooosh - 3-22-2010 at 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nancyconroy

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
This should be good.

Have you seen any Baja ice rinks Dennis?

THE Nancy Conroy? My hero arrives... or maybe you were already here. I do miss the Gringo Gazette North. Hated to see Torres' people rip it off the shelves. There has been no critical voice of truth since.

No I haven't seen a Mexican skating, but they did at least send one skier to the Winter Olympics. Now that Mexico has a space program I'm sure the first use of their advanced technological wizardly will be for creating ice skating rinks. In between skating sessions the Mexican Military can lay out all the dead body pieces and put the human puzzles back together without that pesky smell. Red ice? No problemo. Tamarindo!

!

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