BajaNomad - 12V or 120V system?

12V or 120V system?

Santiago - 4-12-2010 at 01:01 PM

I've put off this decision as long as I can and need whatever input you have. My cabin is basically 22' X 30' and will have a 12' X 22' attached patio. The 22'X30' has a 15'X22' front room and the back 15' is divided into 4 rooms: kitchen, bed, tiny bath and storage room. There is a top deck of 11'X22'.
The only thing I currently use solar for is to charge one 105amp 12 volt deep cycle Diehard to run my Shurflo water pump and one overhead 5 watt florecent bulb in the kitchen. My enitre system cost $199 at the disposable tool company. I have a Honda E2000 generator.
My goal is to provide lighting for all the rooms and outside areas BUT I will do it with a lot of small watt fixtures in order to create mood lighting, wash walls, small fixtures on each post, ect. In other words, I will run a lot of wire and have a lot of switches. Stove, refer, W/H is propane and I make my coffee with a stove-top drip and my wife likes her marggies on the rocks so the only use for 110v is to play my Bose iPod player. No TV or DVD player, etc.
However, I think that running all the wires and switches would be so much easier and cheaper in 110V and I could use dimmers also.
At this point I'm thinking a 20amp system is fine.
For those of you who have gone through this, what are your thoughts.

monoloco - 4-12-2010 at 01:38 PM

I am using 12v LED lighting. I found MR16 type bulbs for a really good price on overstock.com, they have 48LED bulbs that draw 2.4 watts for about $8 each and 36LED bulbs that draw 1.8 watts for a little over $6 each. I have been using these for about a month and they are really bright, the only drawback is that they have a bit blue to the light but I like the spectrum of them better than compact floresents.

Bob and Susan - 4-12-2010 at 02:58 PM

if you look around you can get the yellow leds also

blue looks like a office
yellow is a living room

no tv or dvd?

you don't plan to stay much do you :lol:

just wait till you get older
you'll kick yourself for NOT having bright lights :light:

my disability is i need reading glasses now

[Edited on 4-12-2010 by Bob and Susan]

BajaWarrior - 4-12-2010 at 04:24 PM

We're using a Honda eu2000i for our power. I don't know how often you get down there or how long you stay but I got tired of playing the solar game especially when the prices went up considerally on panels then doubled on batteries. Our home in Baja is a vacation home and the average trip is only three to 4 days with a few one week trips throughout the year. Not being there in the summer or for any extended period of time also poses a problem with not watering the batteries.

I have two of the Honda's and use one for roughly 150 hours then swap it with the other while performing maintenence on the first. I also installed a bulk fuel tank (6 gallons) so it can run for about 80 hours at a decent load (We're running a standard fridge 3.5 amps) plus all the other goodies. I built a special room inside my garage and have the exhaust piped to over the second floor roof and there is a fan that pushes air out of a gable end vent in the room anytime the generator is on. None of my neighbors can hear it because that is a concern to me, and them.

Everyone's power needs are different, that's ours.

[Edited on 4-13-2010 by BajaWarrior]

Pescador - 4-12-2010 at 04:46 PM

Well, I can tell you that the people at Punta Chivato are all using solar panels and have it down to a science. Perhaps Russ will chime in here, cause he has some great experience. Most use solar full time and do everything that you would normally do with electric grid. Most have a backup generator that fills in when they have an issue with repetitive cloudy days.
Bob and Susan are running their whole place on solar and are doing a great job with their system
I used regular switches and speaker wire to hook up all of my solar lights outside of my trailer at San Lucas Cove and it worked like a charm. LED's were a real blessing, but I also found a lot of 12 volt yard lights that were very small draw but put out a lot of light.

Floatflyer - 4-12-2010 at 04:49 PM

To each his own. We started off the same way but as we spent more time at our place our electrical consumption went up. For my $.02 worth, forget the 12 v stuff, a kerosene lamp is about of the same value. You can buy a small inexpensive inverter and have much more selection of lights and applicances as your need grows and it WILL.

We are getting ready to sell one of our propane fridges and replace it with a 120 v conventional one. We spend 6 months per year in our place and a big fridge is a true luxury and we aren't going to suffer needlessly. Our Servels have been great but as you know when the weather starts warming the fridge temps suffers somewhat. Good luck.

monoloco - 4-12-2010 at 05:23 PM

We will use both, inverter for most appliances and low voltage LED's for lighting. It is nice to be able to run 30 lights with the draw of one conventional bulb, and they are a heck of a lot brighter and more convenient than kerosene lamps. LED technology has improved by leaps and bounds in the last few years. I have a Servel that is probably 60 years old or more and still works great but uses a lot of propane so I am looking forward to switching to an efficient electric soon.

Bob and Susan - 4-12-2010 at 06:09 PM

led's are 110-120volt too...

we have them all over the place

they dont last as long as advertised
dont be fooled

these are like 40watts (they use only 2w) and about $4usa

[Edited on 4-13-2010 by Bob and Susan]

led.jpg - 18kB

David K - 4-12-2010 at 10:19 PM

Bob & Susan's place ROCKS! You all need to spend some time in their casitas!

BajaWarrior - 4-15-2010 at 08:40 PM

Generator room, simple.

Bob and Susan - 4-16-2010 at 04:51 AM

can you show us how you hooked up the extra tank to the generators?

a Q

capt. mike - 4-16-2010 at 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaWarrior
We're using a Honda eu2000i for our power. I don't know how often you get down there or how long you stay but I got tired of playing the solar game especially when the prices went up considerally on panels then doubled on batteries. Our home in Baja is a vacation home and the average trip is only three to 4 days with a few one week trips throughout the year. Not being there in the summer or for any extended period of time also poses a problem with not watering the batteries.

I have two of the Honda's and use one for roughly 150 hours then swap it with the other while performing maintenence on the first. I also installed a bulk fuel tank (6 gallons) so it can run for about 80 hours at a decent load (We're running a standard fridge 3.5 amps) plus all the other goodies. I built a special room inside my garage and have the exhaust piped to over the second floor roof and there is a fan that pushes air out of a gable end vent in the room anytime the generator is on. None of my neighbors can hear it because that is a concern to me, and them.

Everyone's power needs are different, that's ours.

[Edited on 4-13-2010 by BajaWarrior]

warrior - have you ever daisy chained your E2000s? i was curious since they provide a strapping plug for that. i was thinking of getting a 2nd one to strap giving more ampacity for compressor starters.

Floater - is that you FW??

bonanza bucko - 4-16-2010 at 07:21 AM

We started with 12V at our place in Gonzaga Bay for the same reasons you have started with it. We now have a full solar system....10 170 Watt panels, 8 L16 Rolls batteries, a Xantrex charge controller and a Magnum Energy 24V, 4000 watt inverter. We are very happy with the system...it took about ten years to evolve. But.....we learned a lot.

The first thing we learned is that you do NOT want 12V in your house or garage if you can avoid it...large wires and lotsa amps...Neighbors had fires start by shorts in 12V that wouldn't happen with 120V.

You can set up a very nice solar, charge controller, inverter, battery system for something like $3000 and then you will have something to build on. The best place we have found to buy our solar stuff and get good advice with no BS and no sales pitch is The Solar Biz....thesolarbiz.com....over in New Mexico...they ship to anywhere. We have bought panels, controllers, inverters and batteries from them...so have most of our neighbors. Happy with the results.

BB

BajaWarrior - 4-16-2010 at 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
can you show us how you hooked up the extra tank to the generators?

I actually ordered it from WiseSales.com.

If you want to Google it type in "Extended run time tank Hondaeu2000i" and a lot of ideas will come up.

Now seeing it I could easily build it.

Remove vent from cap, save parts! Locate a threaded connection that is on one end (for threading into the cap) and barbed on the other end (to fit a 3/16ths hose) and the same on the tank end. That setup would be for a single generator however the kit i purchased was ready for two generators with "T" fitting and the unused end plugged off.

The generator fuel tank itself must be topped off and both tank and generator must be at the same floor level to prevent overfilling (which I don't think that can happen because it is a closed system especially with a good fit at generator and tank.

You can see it is just a regular 6 gallon tank normally used for small boats but a larger tank could certainly be substituted which I may still do.

Play with it, get the right fitting for the gas cap and tank, connect with hose. Seems easy however I did spend just over $100 for the complete kit, but no regrets, only took 15 minutes to hook up.

Oh, maybe because my generator(s) is running a high load it does consume more fuel in the Generator tank as it is consuming the Bulk tank so I do check the level every day and a half to insure we don't end up in the dark.

The generators I purchased used one from DianeT here on Nomads (Thank you DianeT) and the other on CraigsList here in San Diego. Total investment is less than $1500.

I only run one at a time for general use (two houses and a 1500 sq. ft. garage) including a LG Bottom Freezer 3.5 amp Fridge. I set up a simple household light switch to turn off the fridge to run the Microwave or anything high watt. The only thing one won't run is my compressor. It needs to much power for start up. I must start the second one and deploy the 30 amp feature between the two.

BW

BajaWarrior - 4-16-2010 at 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike

Quote:

Yes, the Gen's are daisy chained with a device that creates 30 amp service (see gen on right). The newer 2000 is called the "Companion" with a 30 amp built into it but you'll still need a second identical gen to match it with only a single cord between the two.

Keep in mind, these 2000's are only pushing 1600 watts each. The 2000 is the MAX.

The 1000 is pushing 900 watts and the 3000 is pushing 2800 actual watts.

BW

Santiago - 4-17-2010 at 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bonanza bucko
We started with 12V at our place in Gonzaga Bay for the same reasons you have started with it. We now have a full solar system....10 170 Watt panels, 8 L16 Rolls batteries, a Xantrex charge controller and a Magnum Energy 24V, 4000 watt inverter. We are very happy with the system...it took about ten years to evolve. But.....we learned a lot.

The first thing we learned is that you do NOT want 12V in your house or garage if you can avoid it...large wires and lotsa amps...Neighbors had fires start by shorts in 12V that wouldn't happen with 120V.

You can set up a very nice solar, charge controller, inverter, battery system for something like $3000 and then you will have something to build on. The best place we have found to buy our solar stuff and get good advice with no BS and no sales pitch is The Solar Biz....thesolarbiz.com....over in New Mexico...they ship to anywhere. We have bought panels, controllers, inverters and batteries from them...so have most of our neighbors. Happy with the results.

BB

Thank you BB. I want to avoid the 12v system just for this very reason - much easier, cheaper and safer to run the wiring. I had budged $2000 to start but will start at Solar Biz and see what I end up with.

Santiago - 4-17-2010 at 07:12 AM

Oh - at 120 did you stay with the 12 volt water pumps or go to the park models?

Bob and Susan - 4-17-2010 at 07:39 AM

go to harbor freight and
get a 4 amp 110v pump with a little pressure tank

end the "12v pain"
plug it in a go

it doesnt run that long at one time

you WON'T be taking 30 minute showers
take my word :saint:

Bob and Susan - 4-17-2010 at 07:46 AM

a BIG mistake people make (even the solar suppliers)

is the size of the wire from the solar panels
to the batteries...too small

when the weather gets hotter
the wire develops resistance and
the power from the panels is greatly reduced

you NEED an (example) outback controller
then...wire the panels to a higher voltage (ex 48v)
then...the controller reduces that to (ex 12v) charge the batteries
it reduces voltage to what you need

a smaller size wire from the panels can now be utilized
avoiding the heat problem we have in baja

batteries do weird things in the summer
that they DON'T do in the winter

bonanza bucko - 4-17-2010 at 09:03 AM

Re water pump voltage and size: You can get a 120V Jet Pump with a pressure regulator and 30 gallon +/- pressure tank from Sears for about $350. You then have 120V pressurized water in the house....regulator is usually set at 30# minimum and 55# max....water pressure in the house goes between 30# and 50#....your female supervision will be happy. Even more happy if you equip the kitchen with an RV six gallon propane water heater.....available at Camping World for about $400...get the pilot light jobby NOT the electric ignition one because salt air and Baja, in general, make electronic gizmos allergic.

Re system sizing: The new charge controllers (Xantrex currently among the best because of heat problems with Outback) make use of higher panel voltages to boost the amps going into the batteries. TheSolarBiz recommends wiring your panels at 60V instead of 24V for a 24V charge system and battery bank....depending on how many nominally 12 V panels you have (60V requires five panels, 48V only requires 4 etc.)

The controller then senses the "overhead" in voltage from the panels once every 60th of a second and raises the amps going into the batteries. (VXA=W; W/A=V;W/V=A) so the 170 watts coming from the panels at 60V are producing 3 Amps but, when they hit the charge controller, they are changed to 24 V or 7 Amps to charge the batteries faster.

The lower Amps coming from the panels also allow you to use smaller wire for the long runs from the combiner box for the panels to the charge controller. Nice....talk to ThesolarBiz about this.

This set up is just NEAT! ...you end up with PG&E style power, pressurized (even hot) water and you get it all free from God every day the sun shines. You can use your generator to top off the batteries at the end of cloudy days....but we have found that the days that is needed in Baja are few...and,also, that good L-16 batteries (recommend Surretts) are good for more than one day if it's cloudy).

You should also NOT get a Modified Sine Wave inverter. They are cheaper but, nowadays, your gizmos in the house...like computers and point of use propane water heaters for the shower...require full sine wave power. Most good inverters....like Outback, Xantrex or Magnum Energy..supply that.

I think the best...and sometimes only...source for non BS straight scoop on this stuff is TheSolarBiz.

BB

bonanza bucko - 4-17-2010 at 09:33 AM

...addendum to the above: The watts coming from a 60 V panel array, made up of five 12 V panels, would be 5X12=600W. This error of mine does not change the relationships or the bottom line which is amps going to the batteries getting boosted. The example above assumes, incorrectly, that there would only be one panel. The current batch of panels on the market, by the way, usually produce up to 170 watts per each 12V +/- panel. You can probably count on about 120 watts from such a panel when you do your math.

Bob and Susan - 4-17-2010 at 11:54 AM

bonanza has it right

there are small regular propane hot water heaters here for $200
at home depot

in the summer we turn them off
water is already TOO HOT!!!

i had trouble with the jet pumps
they pump part is plastic and
it streches and shrinks with heat and cold

i now have cast iron
no leaks

i'd stick with a smaller amperage pump too
i started with 9 amp
we now have 4 amp pumps
saves power

monoloco - 4-17-2010 at 01:05 PM

Which 4 amp pump are you using and what size tank?

Bob and Susan - 4-17-2010 at 02:48 PM

the pump is 4 amps at 110v

it comes with a pressure switch and a guage

the tank is the original flotec 20gal

i really dont think you need the bigger tank

a little one will work the same

pmp.jpg - 25kB

monoloco - 4-18-2010 at 06:23 AM

Thanks, I'm getting ready to put in a system so it's nice to know what works for others.

Santiago - 4-18-2010 at 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
go to harbor freight and
get a 4 amp 110v pump with a little pressure tank

end the "12v pain"
plug it in a go

it doesnt run that long at one time

you WON'T be taking 30 minute showers
take my word :saint:

Bob:
is the photo of the pump above this one? Can't find it on Harbor Freight's website.

Bob and Susan - 4-18-2010 at 11:36 AM

i got that one in santa rosalia but

i was just at harbor freight wednesday and they have the same thing

it comes with a little pressure tank and a pressure switch

not expensive

plug in and go

oh yea i'd get a 1" plastic back flow valve to
put in front of the pump ~$3

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnu...

$119 but goes "on sale" all the time for less

[Edited on 4-18-2010 by Bob and Susan]

ppp.gif - 45kB