BajaNomad - Cross-Cultural Confusion

Cross-Cultural Confusion

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Gypsy Jan - 4-30-2010 at 10:37 PM

Here I go, dipping my toe into provoking comments on the differences between the gabachos and the people of the established culture, but I have encountered a puzzling kind of endemic racism.

First Example: We took our attorney, a very nice, well-dressed and well-spoken Mexican to a well-known, upscale Tijuana restaurant for lunch.

We had visited enough to be recognized on sight. During the course of our ordering, the wait person was rude, dismissive and almost openly hostile towards our guest.

We received perfect service, but all her requests were ignored/messed up.

Second example: Recently we took our guy that is saving our yard to lunch to a local place where we eat once a week. Our order was executed perfectly, but he didn't get what he ordered and when he asked them privately, they told him that if he didn't like it, he could go somewhere else.

I am officially confused. Did we offend by us gabachos taking our local friends out in a public forum?

Or is there something else that I am missing?

[Edited on 5-1-2010 by Gypsy Jan]

woody with a view - 4-30-2010 at 10:47 PM

see arizona vs. mexico.....

inherent ignorance makes for perfectly ambiguous realities........

JESSE - 5-1-2010 at 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
Here I go, dipping my toe into provoking comments on the differences between the gabachos and the people of the established culture, but I have encountered a puzzling kind of endemic racism.

First Example: We took our attorney, a very nice, well-dressed and well-spoken Mexican to a well-known, upscale Tijuana restaurant for lunch.

We had visited enough to be recognized on sight. During the course of our ordering, the wait person was rude, dismissive and almost openly hostile towards our guest.

We received perfect service, but all her requests were ignored/messed up.

Second example: Recently we took our guy that is saving our yard to lunch to a local place where we eat once a week. Our order was executed perfectly, but he didn't get what he ordered and when he asked them privately, they told him that if he didn't like it, he could go somewhere else.

I am officially confused. Did we offend by us gabachos taking our local friends out in a public forum?

Or is there something else that I am missing?

[Edited on 5-1-2010 by Gypsy Jan]

A lot of Mexicans turn into jerks when in the company of americans, they seem to want to impress them by being rude to the wait staff, and thus, the reaction from the waiters.

jak - 5-1-2010 at 03:40 AM

Why do you call yourself a Gabacho? If you are not being crude or rude it doesn't seem appropriate.

mtgoat666 - 5-1-2010 at 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
Second example: Recently we took our guy that is saving our yard to lunch to a local place where we eat once a week. Our order was executed perfectly, but he didn't get what he ordered and when he asked them privately, they told him that if he didn't like it, he could go somewhere else.

you should have refused to pay for any of the meals and complained immediately. that kind of behaviour from a restaurant is grounds for refusing to pay for the meal. i would have walked out immediately. this is especially disconcerting if it happened in a restaurant that knows you. go to mgt and complain, and get apology from management and waiter before you ever eat their again, and even then i would probably not revisit...

Osprey - 5-1-2010 at 07:02 AM

Jan, in some circles Mexicans who show themselves in a posture where they are playing to the gringos for gain, those who show, in every way they can, affinity, friendship, commonality are sometimes said to be "Muy Barbero", posers, flatterers.

Pescador - 5-1-2010 at 07:07 AM

Contrary to the cabro's opinion, you sound like a discerning person. There is obviously some confusion about exactly what went on and it was not a clear cut situation by any means. What might work better would be to talk in private with the people at the restaurant and find out what their take on the situation was. Communication happens on so many levels that we never really know what has taken place. It could be that his cousin had made an inappropriate pass at their neice or whatever stupid reason you can think of, but a little gentle questioning might just give you some very valuable insight into what was really going on.
Shari has provided some wonderful inights in to the Baja Mexican culture because she lives in the middle of it and she relates the understanding to an onion which means that every time you peel a layer off, there is another one under it. So, I suspect that there are some very interesting layers here that might just prove very insightful.

Tipping...

Dave - 5-1-2010 at 07:15 AM

Is NOT a city in China. :rolleyes:

Jak, My Use of Gabacho

Gypsy Jan - 5-1-2010 at 07:22 AM

Was just an attempt at self-deprecating humor.

DENNIS - 5-1-2010 at 07:35 AM

Boycott the racist restaurants. Their profiling is intolerable. :no:

Iflyfish - 5-1-2010 at 08:10 AM

Since Mexico is a pigmentocracy, like most other countries in the world, including the USofA, I wonder what color the skin of your guests.

There are many forms of prejudice and this is one of the most pernicious and prevalent.

There are also regional prejudices that one finds including but not limited to rural vs. urban, East vs. West, North vs. South, Mexico City vs. the rest of Mexico, educated vs. unschooled, beautiful vs. ugly, homosexual vs. heterosexual, tall vs. short, rich vs. poor believers vs. true believers vs. nonbelievers (fill in the blanks on that one) and on it goes.

Essentially anyone who is different from us, have you seen the most recent People of Walmart emails, is a target for our vitriol. Ethnocentricity and xenophobia are our best friends especially in bad economic times. Of course this discussion has nothing to do with Arizona.

I vividly recall an experience in the 1950s of my father and uncle being laughed out of a restaurant in Montana; they were dressed in plaid Bermuda shorts, all the rave at that time in our home state of California.

I have noticed that when I have had the occasion to be in Mexico in a suit that people will correct my “frontera” Spanish unprompted and sometimes very rudely. I NEVER have this problem when I am dressed casually.

I sometimes wonder why many equate a Southern accent with ignorance?

Just some thoughts on what you observed, all possibilities to rule out in situations like you mentioned.

There is also the possibility of randomness as your N (2) sample is very small.

Iflyfishbetweenscratchesofmyhead

Iflyfish - 5-1-2010 at 08:18 AM

On further reading, Osprey may have it right. Condescension is sometimes non verbally communicated as are the gestures and behaviors demonstrative of social superiority.

I have been a dapper dresser in my day and once met a cousin of George Bush, an exemplar of the upper class, in which they were raised. The first thing she said to me was a comment on my shoes, which were knock offs of a very expensive Italian variety.

Iflyfishindirtywadersihavetomyembarassmentaccidentlypi**edin

[Edited on 5-3-2010 by BajaNomad]

Skipjack Joe - 5-1-2010 at 09:34 AM

Being told to 'shove it' after you compalin about your food in a Mexican restaurant is not unusual and happens to everyone. In fact it happens throughout the third world to everyone. The idea that a restaurant will prepare a second meal for you if you don't like the first is expected here in the US so we expect it elsewhere and are shocked when it doesn't happen. We shouldn't be.

Regarding cultural differences - there must be many stories travelers have. Here is mine. I boarded a bus in Yugoslavia wearing sandals over sock-covered feet. Sitting in my seat I could hear their conversation over my attire. "Look at what that crazy American is wearing. Have you ever seen such a thing?". And on and on it went. When I was nearing my stop I turned to them and asked them in fluent SerboCroatian if this was the right place to get off. Their mouths just dropped as they stammered out an answer. I still get a kick out of that memory.

On the flip sign of that experience I discovered that women didn't shave their legs in Europe on that trip. Have you ever seen a woman with hairy legs? It wasn't something I soon forgot. But I heard no giggles from those around her.

mtgoat666 - 5-1-2010 at 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador
Contrary to the cabro's opinion, you sound like a discerning person. There is obviously some confusion about exactly what went on and it was not a clear cut situation by any means. What might work better would be to talk in private with the people at the restaurant and find out what their take on the situation was. Communication happens on so many levels that we never really know what has taken place. It could be that his cousin had made an inappropriate pass at their neice or whatever stupid reason you can think of, but a little gentle questioning might just give you some very valuable insight into what was really going on.
Shari has provided some wonderful inights in to the Baja Mexican culture because she lives in the middle of it and she relates the understanding to an onion which means that every time you peel a layer off, there is another one under it. So, I suspect that there are some very interesting layers here that might just prove very insightful.

there is no excuse for bad behaviour -- local yocalism is not an excuse. if someone disses you, then speak your mind, or forever be trod upon. if you don't speak your mind, then....

BAJA.DESERT.RAT - 5-1-2010 at 10:13 AM

Hola, i hope this is inline with the thread. in los barriles, myself and three friends went to los barralitos restaurant and took some fish for them to cook for us and it came out excellent ! when the bill came, we promptly paid it and added a 10% tip. when the waitress came back, she said there wasn't enough propina and demanded more. as she did speak fairly good english, i told her " nobody " tells me how to spend my money and we left.

later on two different visits, two other friends went to the same restaurant and encountered the same attitude and did increase the propina as they wanted to eat there again in the future and really enjoyed their meals.

it is my belief that 10% + is more than adequate as most of the restaurants pay mexican wages and charge american prices and we are all feeling the pinch of the bad economy.

needless to say, i won't go back as i don't care to have anything foreign placed in my meals !

BIEN SALUD, DA RAT

mtgoat666 - 5-1-2010 at 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BAJA.DESERT.RAT
it is my belief that 10% + is more than adequate

rat,
10% tip is an insult in USA, and an insult in Mexico.
if you can afford to travel to mexico, you can afford to not be a jerk to wait staff.

wessongroup - 5-1-2010 at 11:21 AM

Must agree with goat on the 10%... should be 20% and it depends on who is giving the tip and who is receiving ....

GJ, perhaps it was something YOU said and/or did.. :?:

toneart - 5-1-2010 at 11:33 AM

I agree! A 10% tip is not adequate, although many locals and tourists tip 10% or sometimes nothing. I think good service deserves more. I always tip 20% unless they are really rude or overtly unattentive. Twenty percent is more the norm in the United States now...up from 15%.

However, a propina was apparently not the issue in Jan's case. There has been some really good speculation and insight in this string as to what the problem could have been. The subtleties and nuances of prejudice is difficult to understand. I bet the lawyer has a clue. I am not saying he was offensive. One does not necessarily need to be offensive in order to be discriminated against. :light:

Iflyfiish- As a former So. California surfer/beachrat in the 1950s, we used to laugh at the tourists in the plaid shorts. It wasn't just the plaid shorts. Part of the uniform was: black street shoes, high socks and pasty white legs, which gave them a distinct "alien" look. A few of us felt sorry for them, but most held outright disdain.

We countered with the original gesture of lining up in a row dropping our trunks and mooning them. Another technique was to hang two out the front window and two out the back window of a vehicle...four in a row, and honk the horn. We invented that as far as I know, only then we called it "flipping the B A. (Bare A**) Any of you Gremmies remember that? :tumble:

We were ba-a-a-a-d! :saint:

Mulegena - 5-1-2010 at 11:40 AM

Personally, I've found people here to be friendly and respectful, and I try to respond in kind. I've never had any troubles.

I don't use the "G" word, Gringo, which is a disparagment and have never heard a Mexican use the phrase. The common term used here in Baja is "Americano" which refers to anyone non-Mexican. Extranjero, foreigner, is more apt. Mexicans usually ask me if I'm an Italian.

To use the word gabacho is just not-on, ever, imo.

Bajahowodd - 5-1-2010 at 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

On the flip sign of that experience I discovered that women didn't shave their legs in Europe on that trip. Have you ever seen a woman with hairy legs? It wasn't something I soon forgot. But I heard no giggles from those around her.

It's not just the legs, my friend! :lol:

wessongroup - 5-1-2010 at 02:21 PM

toneart ..... the BA... it's been a long while.. but, most certainly remember that one..
:lol:

CaboRon - 5-1-2010 at 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Regarding cultural differences - there must be many stories travelers have. Here is mine. I boarded a bus in Yugoslavia wearing sandals over sock-covered feet. Sitting in my seat I could hear their conversation over my attire. "Look at what that crazy American is wearing. Have you ever seen such a thing?". And on and on it went.

Socks are Never acceptable with sandals ...

mtgoat666 - 5-1-2010 at 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I boarded a bus in Yugoslavia wearing sandals over sock-covered feet. Sitting in my seat I could hear their conversation over my attire. "Look at what that crazy American is wearing. Have you ever seen such a thing?". And on and on it went.

only a total dork wears socks with sandals, in any decade ever :lol:

there has never been anywhere appropriate for men to wear socks with sandals in public :lol:

the yugos were totally right to ridicule such attire

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
On the flip sign of that experience I discovered that women didn't shave their legs in Europe on that trip. Have you ever seen a woman with hairy legs?

yes, known some very sexy women with unshaved legs and pits :bounce:

wessongroup - 5-1-2010 at 06:57 PM

Oh my God, sandal police !!! :lol:

shari - 5-1-2010 at 07:07 PM

Osprey hit it on the nail...again. This subject is very interesting. Any of you who know Juan know that he will NOT go out to a restaurant with tourists...I could never figure out why...we get invited out to eat frequently and being of canadian descent, I'm always up for a free meal :yes:

It is as Osprey says...mexicanos who rub shoulders with gringos are sometimes considered barberos(kind of like a leech or brown noser) and it's not cool to be showing off...which is how it might be perceived by the workers in the joint. I hear lots of nasty comments about locals who try to hang around gringos...a word I hear all day every day here.

It is such a fascinating culture with so many layers, subtleties and idiosyncracies(sp) that sometimes it's hard to figure out what the hell is going on in their heads and hearts.

Ya sure gotta be careful as one can royally screw up so easily.

Barry A. - 5-1-2010 at 07:24 PM

Since we are being so graphic and "honest" here-------I almost always wear socks with sandals-----------and I almost always wear sandles, even to a restaurant in the evening. Has nothing to do with "style" or "dorkyness" etc.--------my feet sweat, always have, and I ruin sandles fast if I don't wear socks. Also, no socks result in my feet drying out fast, and I end up with splits in my skin, and then they bleed which really IS gross!!! not to mention dorky.

So, you just never know--------some folks have real reasons for doing what they do. :lol:

Barry

mtgoat666 - 5-1-2010 at 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Since we are being so graphic and "honest" here-------I almost always wear socks with sandals-----------and I almost always wear sandles, even to a restaurant in the evening. Has nothing to do with "style" or "dorkyness" etc.--------my feet sweat, always have, and I ruin sandles fast if I don't wear socks. Also, no socks result in my feet drying out fast, and I end up with splits in my skin, and then they bleed which really IS gross!!! not to mention dorky.

Barry

TMI

Get a pedicure!
Put on some shoes!

Like infants, old people are allowed to lose control of their bodies and orifices,... perhaps an exception for rule that men sshould not wear socks with sandals

DENNIS - 5-1-2010 at 07:39 PM

Quote:

The rule is, socks with sandals are OK if long pants are worn. Socks, sandals and shorts are only permitted with a clean terrycloth pool ensemble and a straw hat.

Jeeeezo...ain't you guys ever been to the plunge in East LA?

Fashion Crimes:

Packoderm - 5-1-2010 at 09:28 PM

[img]http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0902/******baggus-maximus-******bag-stupid-myspace-demotivational-poster-1234404744.jpg[/img]

Barry A. - 5-1-2010 at 10:03 PM

lookin gooooood!!!!! Espescially the pic of the hairly legs with the handsome sandals------------could be me!!!

Barry

Iflyfish - 5-1-2010 at 10:07 PM

Ok, guess the socks and sandles as well as plaid Burmuda shorts are dorky. I thought they were cool in the 50's, but I was but a pup then. I wonder if they will ever come back, seems like all the fashions recycle.

I never in my wildest thought I would get schooled by nomads on fashion.....go figure!?

Iflyfishinsocksandsandlestillmockedoutoftheriver

[Edited on 5-2-2010 by Iflyfish]

Packoderm - 5-1-2010 at 10:17 PM

Skipjack Joe - 5-1-2010 at 11:10 PM

I dont know. For some reason whenever I think of sandals I think of Victor Mature.

victormature.jpg - 49kB

Barry A. - 5-2-2010 at 06:47 AM

Victor Mature??? Me too. I feel like Samson when I wear my sandals!!!! I still wear my Harachies (sp?) too-------love my Harachies, but have to wear socks with them.

All this is cross-culture information, and very relavant to this thread.

:lol:

Barry

Caring about what other people think?

Lee - 5-2-2010 at 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
*******************************************

Let's see. Juan cares about what strangers think of him hanging with ''tourists.'' Not PC appearing to have white folks as friends?

Not accepting small minded, ignorant prejudices is not accepting of the culture down South?

Guess everyone is entitled to an opinion.

It's not socks with sandals -- it's black socks that are objectionable with sandals -- it's the ''I just stepped off the boat'' look that doesn't blend in except in tourist towns.

Just looks like more judgment from here.

[Edited on 5-3-2010 by BajaNomad]

DianaT - 5-2-2010 at 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
Osprey hit it on the nail...again. This subject is very interesting. Any of you who know Juan know that he will NOT go out to a restaurant with tourists...I could never figure out why...we get invited out to eat frequently and being of canadian descent, I'm always up for a free meal :yes:

Shari,
I am a little confused and concerned. From what I read in your post is that the locals around here with whom we have become friends are in danger of being considered barberos?

We do know of some locals who wish all the Canadians and norteamericanos would go away, but your post is concerning.

Maybe we need to talk with a few of our friends---we certainly do not want to put anyone in a position of being called a barbero because they are friends with us.

And the way you said you hear gringos all day long sounds like many or most of the people here dislike the Canadians and norteamericanos----doesn't sound like a friendly place to have home???

Sounds like we should not risk making friends with the locals???

Confusing.........

Iflyfish - 5-2-2010 at 08:20 AM

The other evening mrsfish and i were out to dinner, local restaurant, did not notice mayor of town sitting at next table till he and wife pulled their table over to ours. A bit cheaky on his part but affable fellow and enjoyed our dinner. When leaving I noticed a lot of people looking at us, wondering who we were, commenting behind their hands to eachother. My point is that people notice when we are hanging out with people of status, celebrity or who are just different than most and have opinions about that including jealousy which can lead to contempt. This has also happened when we have dined with my transvestite friend. Just saying.

Friends?

Dave - 5-2-2010 at 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
I am a little confused and concerned. From what I read in your post is that the locals around here with whom we have become friends

Given Shari's comments, how would you know?

It's been my experience that true friends stand up for each other...Regardless of public opinion.

BAJA.DESERT.RAT - 5-2-2010 at 10:27 AM

Hola, when i have visited mexican friends in another small town and i was hungry, i invited the family to have lunch with me and was accepted twice very early on. thereafter, i would always be declined.

perhaps all the information in this thread was the reason. i didn't even give it a thought that they would possibly be looked down upon by their countrymen and friends. i'm not dressing in anything fancy, just shorts, sandals and a t-shirt, nothing designer, just laid back and i'm not looking to get my behind kissed. it may not be looked at as patronizing, perhaps jealousy or noncomplimentary envy ?

this friendship commenced in 2006 and i do still visit them regularly and they are very poor but do have a little ranch on the outskirts of town.

if that is the case, myself and yourselves should continue to attempt to break this unsocial ( to me ) behavior in the name of friendship. barriers can come down !

over the past 30 years or so, myself and friends have come down to fish and were advised to NOT overtip as it would ruin it of the people that follow. it seems as though the expectation of bigger tips has come into fruition and I may be the one behind the times ! yes, i do know how to LUMP it !

THANK YOU,

BIEN SALUD, DA RAT

mtgoat666 - 5-2-2010 at 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BAJA.DESERT.RAT
over the past 30 years or so, myself and friends have come down to fish and were advised to NOT overtip as it would ruin it of the people that follow. it seems as though the expectation of bigger tips has come into fruition and I may be the one behind the times ! yes, i do know how to LUMP it !

there is no such thing as tipping too much. how would tipping too much ruiin it? perhaps you meant it would ruin it for the tight wads?
over time everything works out to the mean, and the mean is composed of a mix of generous people, middle of the road people, and tight wads :lol:

DENNIS - 5-2-2010 at 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

there is no such thing as tipping too much.

There's a difference between tipping and gifting. Why would you want to give a gift to a gas station attendant? Huh??

It reminds me of the often said warning for relativly rich tourists flaunting their wealth. The advice is, "Don't do it." So, why would you do it in a gas station?

[Edited on 5-2-2010 by DENNIS]

wessongroup - 5-2-2010 at 12:49 PM

Well now, what would the proper amount of a tip be, (10 or 20%) if one were to have dinner with the mayor of a city, and were wearing sandals with white socks... funny as I have done exactly that... never even gave it a thought, just acted naturally ... and my feet sweat too, got frost bitten one time, and they have never worked right with temp regulation since..

Hemingway?

"A man's got to take a lot of punishment to write a really funny book."

[Edited on 5-2-2010 by wessongroup]

shari - 5-2-2010 at 02:07 PM

dianne, I am surprised after being here for awhile and having local amigos that you dont understand what I'm talking about.
I am in contact with all kinds of mexicanos all day every day and the word gringo comes up dozens of times a day in normal conversation...but not at ALL in a negative way...I'm alsosurprised you arent aware that the word gringo is NOT offensive here...it just a word everyone uses to describe the anglos who visit or live here...just like I call locals mexicanos, they call us gringos...with NO mal intent whatsoever. It's easier to prounounce than extanjero, gabacho which is also commonly used, norte americano etc.

Of course there will always be those who dont like gringos and dont want change...you can bet they dont have a business or much contact with foreigners (gringos is easier to spell). Most expats who own property and live here part or full time have very very good mexican friends who they love and admire. But that has nothing to do with going to a restaurant with them. It is fine to have them over for dinner or to another gringos place...that is just fine although if there is a gringo party where there are other mexicanos, juan usually wont show up.

But going to a restaurant in public in a small village is another matter altogether. I understand Juan's concern about being perceived as a barbero by his piers. He is a proud man... this is his culture and I have had to learn and try to understand the finer points of it. We hear others talking about certain barberos here in the village and he just does not want to be portrayed as one. I certainly dont agree with it but must accept it as we have to live here and deal with our friends and neighbours daily. I'm not about to force Juan to embarrass himself.

Dianne, I am jut trying to explain a little known cultural issue here of appearing in public with gringos...while you speak some spanish and have some mexican friends, perhaps they dont discuss these cultural points with you...even if you ask them, you may not get a true answer. I had lived here full time for over 15 years but it wasnt until I married a mexicano that I began to learn what REALLY goes on...what they talk about when no gringos are around...what they call people you and I know. Yes, it may be sad to see how they think about others but it is what it is and we live with it.

Sometimes I wish the folks here were more advanced, more...lets say...worldly or cosmopolitan but it is a remote village and the customs are antiquated...which has its charm in some cases. Little by little we are breaking down these barriers one by one...but change comes slow and not without pain. Unfortunately, there are some barberos here who "use" gringos but are not sincerely their friends...but this is common everywhere I'm sure.

I am proud of the expats ( I personally hate that word but dont mind gringo) here who have integrated well into the community and have meaningful relationships with thier neighbours and amigos and share experiences and culture with them...this is how we will make great strides to understand each other.

It's funny because one criticism I have heard alot is that many gringos dont give a rats burro about how they look or what other people think...which really goes against the grain of mexican culture...they are a proud race who strive to look nice as it is very important to them what others think of them. I'm sure poor Juan is so emabarrased by my fachada dress code...jeans, big T-shirt and thongs and how I shamlessly accept free meals from strangers

but he accepts that that is part of my culture too.

I have great respect for the visitors here who try to fit in, dress adequately and try to learn about and respect the local culture.

woody with a view - 5-2-2010 at 02:20 PM

GREAT post Shari. that really helps explain a lot of what one might consider being given the cold shoulder by a local.

as for the word "gringo", i feel like i'm being called a ni*ger if a mexican calls me "hey gringo!" sorta like me saying "hey bean#r!" it could be my lack of understanding who/what is trying to be communicated but that's just how i feel about it.

i could be wrong!

[Edited on 5-2-2010 by woody in ob]

DianaT - 5-2-2010 at 02:22 PM

Shari,

Interesting, but your post does go round and round in a large circle and contradicts your original post. Oh well, not important.

Except you really do not paint a very good picture of the locals---and I am not referring to the use of gringo.

[Edited on 5-2-2010 by DianaT]

Cypress - 5-2-2010 at 02:32 PM

People wearing socks and sandals? They look sorta funny. :tumble:

Their thought processes are even funnier.

shari - 5-2-2010 at 02:35 PM

strange...I am not meaning to paint anybody anything...just trying to explain a complex cultural difference. Everyone knows how wonderful the villagers are here...but they just have thier strange (to us) values.

DENNIS - 5-2-2010 at 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob

i could be wrong!

No...You're not wrong. It's basically a derogatory term regardless of how lovingly it's used. It's been sooo used that it's become acceptable, usually among friends.
None the less, the original intent is there when the user wants it to be.
What I'm saying is, when two Mexicans are having a private conversation and the term "Gringo" is used, you can bet it isn't to flatter anybody. It's, as Shari says, a convenient label which, unfortunatly, can still carry it's original intent.

We've had extensive threads on this issue in the past and it's amazing how many people equate the term with something on the level of "Amigo" and similar words.
Oh, well....whatever.

Osprey - 5-2-2010 at 02:54 PM

We are getting close to where the rubber meets the road. Now is the time to recognize this difference in cultures and ACCEPT IT. Now is NOT THE TIME to pledge yourself to change it. That slope gets slippery -- are you now going to ask yourself and your neighbors how that custom came to be? Try to noodle out a way to make everybody in the village comfortable in their roles, at ease with every social situation? To celebrate the differences between us, if you must, pledge to smile knowingly when you see the customs surface. If you must, be nice to everybody --- it will drive some of them crazy.

woody with a view - 5-2-2010 at 03:21 PM

Quote:

If you must, be nice to everybody --- it will drive some of them crazy.

rts551 - 5-2-2010 at 03:32 PM

It may depend on how assimilated you are into the local community. We have no problem with our Mexican neighbors or the term Gringo.

Barry A. - 5-2-2010 at 03:49 PM

My first substantial trips to Mexico started in about 1953, and I have been going there on and off ever since. The word "gringo" has always been around, and I never attached any negative meaning to it unless it was used that way, and you can tell when it is. Most of the time it isn't.

I use the word all the time, to both Mexicans and Gringos. :lol:

and am proud to be a GRINGO. (especially when in my sandals, but never with black or dark socks---always white or light gray, and usually the shorty type that don't reach the ankle if not in long pants)

Shari---------GREAT post, and I think right on!!! Viva la differance!!!!

Barry

mtgoat666 - 5-2-2010 at 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
It's funny because one criticism I have heard alot is that many gringos dont give a rats burro about how they look or what other people think...which really goes against the grain of mexican culture...they are a proud race who strive to look nice as it is very important to them what others think of them.

those uncouth gringos wear socks with sandals! :lol:

woody with a view - 5-2-2010 at 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

those uncouth gringos wear socks with sandals! :lol:

to hide the toe knuckle hair, not to mention those 1/4" thick toenails....

Gringo.. for a while ....

wessongroup - 5-2-2010 at 05:15 PM

My wife's grandmother, would not talk to me for ten years..after we got married... she thought I was a "Gringo" and should not have married a Mexican woman, simple as that.

After ten years, she saw that I was a hard working man, taking care of her little "girl" and we became very close.. when staying with us.. many years later.. she would get up at 3 am to fix me breakfast, home made flour tortilla's, eggs with chorizo, and bean's.. before I left for work.. at 4 am (I too worked in Ag)

The Lady was Mexican, born in Sonora Mexico in a family of 13-.. 8 sisters and 3 brothers.. they had to move from the ranch, when their father died sometime around 1928 and Mama Goya could not take care of the place. They moved to Tijuana and gradually came across and found work in Agriculture.. either growing or in the produce market in downtown Los Angeles.

If one looks back at the history and what has happened to the Mexican people thru actions of the United States.. is there any wonder that a lot feel the way they do... know I would have some problems..

I thank those who I come in contact with (Mexicans) for being to nice to me... I know they don't get the same once on the other side of the border... that is a fact...

[Edited on 5-3-2010 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 5-3-2010 by wessongroup]

toneart - 5-2-2010 at 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
GREAT post Shari. that really helps explain a lot of what one might consider being given the cold shoulder by a local.

as for the word "gringo", i feel like i'm being called a ni*ger if a mexican calls me "hey gringo!" sorta like me saying "hey bean#r!" it could be my lack of understanding who/what is trying to be communicated but that's just how i feel about it.

i could be wrong!

[Edited on 5-2-2010 by woody in ob]

There is more to a word than just the translation. There is inflection, context, body language and peer or colloquial usage. Some or all come to play in different instances.

Woody, I have never been addressed as "hey gringo!" That does sound like it would carry a negative connotation. I wouldn't like it.

In my experience, I have only heard "gringo" used as a reference in the third person. Mexicans also refer to blacks as Negros, Negrito or Negrita too. In the U.S. that would be politically incorrect, but is acceptable in Mexico and is not intended as a racial slur.

On the other hand, while hanging out or working with good Mexican friends I am called many obscene or insulting names. They do it with each other too. They do that if you are a friend and they truly like you. You can feel the acceptance and the accompanying laughter is genuine. It is just friends goofing around. :bounce:

rts551 - 5-2-2010 at 05:25 PM

Wessongroup. Right on

I grew in southern California where in the 4th grade they finally "let" the Mexican farm worker kids go to school. We have a long history of exploitation that many people either forget (conveniently) or never knew.

The so called expats or tourist that are in Mexico or visiting and complain about the lack of English is beyond me. Worried abut the term Gringo? They would be better off learning the language of the country they visit instead of giving five stars to Bed and Breakfasts that speak English and make them feel so comfortable..

shari - 5-2-2010 at 06:01 PM

this topic of the word Gringo really gets my goat....please please please believe me that when our friends and family (who LOVE many gringos) use the word gringo...for example..."como se llama los gringos que viven en la casa en la playa?" or "cuando viene el gringo que tiene el carro rojo?" or que agarraron los gringos cuando fueron a pescar? etc etc...it is JUST a word because they dont know your names...kinda like...what were the peoples name who.... they do not mean it in any kind of derogatory way...do I have to put this in capitals and BOLD letters to get people to understand when mexicans refer to gringos...it's just a word...not an insult.

I hated it for years but it sure doesnt phase me now because I truly understand it is not meant to be insulting in any way...unless of course someone uses it with venomous intent...P-nche gringo puto culo...then it's obvious it is meant to be nasty.

And I dont think it's just in our village where it is used widely as a mere descriptive adjective with no mal intent.

rts551 - 5-2-2010 at 06:13 PM

At a race some one said

"Mirar el P-nche Gringuito Loco. Él es muy rápido It was said as a compliment and the name stuck (although it embarrasses him sometimes).

Now the town all has t-shirts with you guessed it.

toneart - 5-2-2010 at 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
this topic of the word Gringo really gets my goat....please please please believe me that when our friends and family (who LOVE many gringos) use the word gringo...for example..."como se llama los gringos que viven en la casa en la playa?" or "cuando viene el gringo que tiene el carro rojo?" or que agarraron los gringos cuando fueron a pescar? etc etc...it is JUST a word because they dont know your names...kinda like...what were the peoples name who.... they do not mean it in any kind of derogatory way...do I have to put this in capitals and BOLD letters to get people to understand when mexicans refer to gringos...it's just a word...not an insult.

I hated it for years but it sure doesnt phase me now because I truly understand it is not meant to be insulting in any way...unless of course someone uses it with venomous intent...P-nche gringo puto culo...then it's obvious it is meant to be nasty.

And I dont think it's just in our village where it is used widely as a mere descriptive adjective with no mal intent.

Shari,

You and I are saying the same thing. I believe you. :yes:

So Verbal Profiling is Simply a Shortcut?

Gypsy Jan - 5-2-2010 at 09:51 PM

In conversation in a cultural context, people use simple words to convey certain images and meaning to the subject of conversation, i.e., "Gringo", "Moreno", "Gordo", "Guero", "Flaco", etc. Yes?

And the inflection and body language used with the words affects the meaning of the communication?

[Edited on 5-3-2010 by Gypsy Jan]

toneart - 5-2-2010 at 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
In conversation in a cultural context, people use simple words to convey certain images and meaning to the subject of conversation, i.e., "Gringo", "Moreno", "Gordo", "Guero", "Flaco", etc.

And the inflection and body language used with the words affects the meaning of the communication?

Jan,
Perhaps not so much in the examples you are using here. They are pretty straight forward. They are just descriptive references meaning nothing bad.

But if these, or any words are colored by unusual inflection and body language, then I think they could be carrying a negative intent. You kinda have to be present to pick up on all of that...and even then you could miss it. It may be subtle and outside of your/our culture unless you are immersed in it. This goes to the larger topic of the mysterious treatment of Mexicans dining in public with you. The lawyer could be conveying a sense of otherness or self importance.

I don't understand your subject title about profiling.

The Limp Handshake

Skipjack Joe - 5-2-2010 at 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
It is as Osprey says...mexicanos who rub shoulders with gringos are sometimes considered barberos(kind of like a leech or brown noser) and it's not cool to be showing off...which is how it might be perceived by the workers in the joint. I hear lots of nasty comments about locals who tr
y to hang around gringos...a word I hear all day every day here.

Shari,

These statements imply, but don't state, that although Mexicans befriend gringos there remains a feeling that they (we) are fine people but not part of the family. We remain estranjeros because we don't have the same roots. Is that true?

Have you ever received a limp handshake from a Mexican? What does it mean? Is it a nonverbal way of telling you that although I really like you, you are not one of us? I ask because it never happens here in the US (all handshakes are the same) but in Mexico it seems to mean something. Please ask Juan what it means.

Incidentally, if you marry a latino the limp handshake goes away (with the wife's kinfolk).

Hi toneart, I used the word "Profiling"

Gypsy Jan - 5-2-2010 at 10:44 PM

To try to describe the encounter; something happened that was outside of my own understanding. My pedantic side wants to always tack a label on something.

As usual, I am probably on the wrong side of trying to "be good or do good".

irenemm - 5-2-2010 at 11:28 PM

I have been called a gringo for many years does not bother me.
about 10 years ago a kid pulled a knife on me. I told my daughter to call the cops. The kids also said to me go home gringa. I told the little punk I have lived in Mexico longer than he had been alive so I had more right to Mexico than him. When the cops came I told them what he was wearing and what he said. This part cracked me. When I told them that the kid had told me to go home gringa the 3 cops all gasped and said that was so bad. I laughed it off. But sometimes it is not taken lightly at least by the Locals cops it was not. BTW the kids go 3 years.
You can be offended if you choose.
I choose not.

Santiago - 5-3-2010 at 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Have you ever received a limp handshake from a Mexican? What does it mean? Is it a nonverbal way of telling you that although I really like you, you are not one of us? I ask because it never happens here in the US (all handshakes are the same) but in Mexico it seems to mean something. Please ask Juan what it means.

Incidentally, if you marry a latino the limp handshake goes away (with the wife's kinfolk).

SJ: I've noticed that also. I've read that in Mexico men will give men a soft handshake. I'm guessing that a firm handshake is too aggressive?? I've dialed mine way back.

DENNIS - 5-3-2010 at 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Have you ever received a limp handshake from a Mexican? What does it mean?

It's just their manner. I've shaken hands with a few of the local Indios and it's no more than a light touching of the skin. In observation, they do the same with each other. I guess the have no need to put their machismo into a handshake.
Another cultural difference.

The more cosmpolitan Mexican shakes hands with the same person almost daily....even relatives. I always figured that was to establish that his hand was empty. :lol:

toneart - 5-3-2010 at 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
To try to describe the encounter; something happened that was outside of my own understanding. My pedantic side wants to always tack a label on something.

As usual, I am probably on the wrong side of trying to "be good or do good".

Jan,
Don't be so hard on yourself.

We have been talking about the spoken word. With the written word I read a lot into tone and civility. You score pretty high on that graph! :yes:

Martyman - 5-3-2010 at 09:21 AM

Thank you for the insights into the mexican culture. I have a lot to learn.
I've gone to bars in Mex and Guatemala...to have 1 or 2 beers. I can't do that anymore. Locals befriend you and want to keep drinking and take you back to their house and ride horses and...
I just can't drink that much.
I just wanted a cupla' beers.

My new friends are extremely upset that I am leaving the bar. I feel bad but... I need a nap. People would be yelling nasties at me as I'm walking away after being so friendly.

DENNIS - 5-3-2010 at 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Martyman

My new friends are extremely upset that I am leaving the bar. I feel bad but... I need a nap. People would be yelling nasties at me as I'm walking away after being so friendly.

This could be more serious than you would ever imagine. If you did it at the wrong place, wrong time, you could be killed. Some country Mexicans will take disrespect very seriously and turning down a drink that has been offered is a slap in the face...especially in front of his peers.
We won't be able to understand this, but it's important to understand the contracts we make when we join their social circle.

[Edited on 5-3-2010 by DENNIS]

wessongroup - 5-3-2010 at 10:17 AM

Excellent point, Dennis

Iflyfish - 5-3-2010 at 10:32 AM

I've been away for a while, very interesting thread. These cultural differences are fascinating and perplexing, not unlike the Venus/Mars dichotomy. All of this is part of the wonder for me of travel. The bones in our own noses are the hardest to see. I hope I am always learning more about the fascinating culture of Mexico.

I have been to remote villages where the handshake is a brief whisper, a feather touch, leaned not to go baracho with the locals, and now feign stomach illness, or touristas if caught in the ancient dilemma of the proffered drinks, learned in Guadalajara at a table in Mariachi Square when our table mates kept ordering fresh Tecate for each gulp we took. It all ended with us surrounded by mariachis and then brandished and fired pistols and Federales and attempt to hand the gun to me under the table.

The Mexico I know is not the same Political Correct culture I come from, they have their own Political Correct, and I don’t know much of it and am always grateful for their graciousness about that. I also know that there are rigid social hierarchies in Mexico and class and color count. What is acceptable in one place, with one group, may not be at all acceptable in another. The term f...k has innumerable meanings depending upon context, tone of voice, set of jaw, color of cheek etc. Context is everything. It is interesting to read the posts of toneart and Jan and to agree with them both, sometimes it is all true.

By the way, Mrsfish is indeed Fly! Oh, my how Fly! She is also an amazing gringa at times and loves it. She is also wajo, don’t know spelling, and is good at that too. I am often called Longusta, a name I have acquired for clearly understandable reasons. I burn way before I tan.

I have had problems with being called gordo, at times, but know that in Mexico, in certain subcultures, it is simply a short way of instant identifying based upon the most obvious difference, again context is important. I cannot do the dozen with black friends, of certain social class, who have a ball doing it with each other. Ditto with the term “nigga” which among friends might be not only acceptable but obligatory, for me to use it risks life and limb no matter how well I know someone. In certain other black subcultures the dozen is never played and no one would ever refer to another as “nigga”.

I am grateful for threads like this that help me to better understand our cultures and their differences.

Iflyfish

bajabass - 5-3-2010 at 12:27 PM

The very first time I met my wife's family they were very cool and cordial. Once they decided I was O.K., the " can the gringo drink tequila test" commenced. My wife's 2 brother-in-laws, her father, sister, and a close family friend sat down with me, a case of Tecate, limes, and 4 bottles of Cazadores. A couple hours later, Alfredo, who is half again my size, and I, were the only two left. We were both 3 sheets to the wind, when he stood up, slowly, and said I was now a part of the family. After almost 5 years now, the whole family treats me as an equal, and have become good friends. It took them a little while to realize I was not stealing the baby girl in the family, and treat her like the queen she is. Honestly, I like most of my wife's family more than most of my own! Now, the handshakes and hugs are firm and honest, on both sides. It took a little while for them to get over the prejudice they learned living in Ensenada, due mostly to encounters with cruise ship tourists and partied out race people, to understand there are good, respectful "gringos" around. They just needed to meet one. We had a birthday party for a good gringo friend in La Mision on new years. Her whole family showed up, and sang the happy b-day song in Spanish for my 80yo friend, he was astonished and touched, as was I. I think my new family is more eager for us to relocate to Mexico than my wife and I are. A few are even talking about following us to La Paz!

Cypress - 5-3-2010 at 12:41 PM

bajabass, Thanks for sharing you story. It's looking like you're gonna be having a whole bunch of good times.

bajabass - 5-3-2010 at 01:12 PM

Thank you Cypress. I think after a few more years I may write a self-help book for gringos married to Latinas. There is a lot to learn, most fun, some, not so much. I wouldn't change a thing, just wish I had met her 30 years ago, when she was 8 :wow:

?? O.K., 20 years ago :cool:

18 is legal!!! LOL

shari - 5-4-2010 at 10:57 AM

Skipjack has asked me to reply to his question about handshakes and if it's possible to have a truly meaninful relationship with locals.

the feeble handshake is a normal thing here...shaking hands weakly is just being nice...not aggressive.

Many extranjeros have indeed been able to immerse into the culture and become like family..which in itself is a complex arrangement...family means sharing the good AND the bad...coming to the aid of a family member when needed, showing you care on a regular basis and sharing the joy and pain of the family. Mexican families touch base nearly every day...a visit, sharing food, converstation...this is the kind of commitment it takes to be part of the "family".

Bajaboy and his family are an excellent example of cultural immersion as they have been truly accepted here and they can attest to what is involved in being "family"!!! I would love to hear from some of our amigos about their experiences with becoming family here.

The extent of your involvement and acceptance into the "family" depends on several things like the amount of spanish spoken and understood, your attitude and actions.
As I mentioned before, I am so pleased at the number of expats who have "found thier place" in the village "family".

there will always be locals who are jealous and/or dont want extranjeros here for whatever reason...so be it. Ya cant please everyone.

[Edited on 5-4-2010 by shari]

P1010330.JPG - 45kB

Heather - 5-4-2010 at 11:05 AM

Family...got a call last night from Tia Lupe, "I'm at the trolley station, and I brought some machaca." Translation...can you pick me up and can I stay awhile? Tia buys clothes in San Diego and LA and then transports them back to La Paz to sell. She is the sister of my recently departed father-in-law. Not only did she bring the machaca, but lots of chisme de la familia, (especially about my mother-in-law, who I love).

My husband dropped her off at the trolley station this am. I forgot to check the spare room to see if she left a bag, otherwise, I don't know if she'll be back or not! Sure feels like family to me!

Bajaboy - 5-4-2010 at 01:22 PM

There is so much going on in this discussion. I think we need to remember that we all come to the discussion with our own perspectives, experiences, and cultures. How one perceives a situation might be completely opposite of a person sitting in the same room. As such, I don't think there is always a correct answer. The gringo debate is a perfect example. English is my first language and as such I understand the nuances associated with its use. I can use the word Mexican is a number of ways depending on stress, context, etc. I am sure Gringo can be used in a similar way. Also, intent of the speaker does not always translate into how the word my be taken.

With regards to being accepted into a community...well, I think this is very complex. What community are we referring to? The community in general, a neighborhood of local Mexicans, a gringo community, a fishing community?

Speaking to being a part of local Mexican community, I feel my family has slowly becoming enculturated. We try and respect the local customs and norms while staying true to our values. It has taken a great deal of patience and understanding. For example, when the 18 wheeler truck pulls behind our place, turns on the loud cumbia music, and proceeds to having a rolling party in the neighborhood, my first instinct is to get upset and yell my frustrations at the people. At home in San Diego, I would probably call the cops. I have learned, though, that while this is annoying in BA, it is also accepted. As such, we have altered, or at least tried to adjust our attitudes.

We also have gone out of our way to meet our neighbors. We frequently spend time with them and learn from them. We often forego the gringo parties in favor of the local fiestas. We prefer the enculturation and might actually offend some of our gringo friends.

All cultures have their uniqueness and similarities. I think we need to remind ourselves of this.

With my experience, I have often erred on the side of not offending my surrounding neighbors.

DENNIS - 5-4-2010 at 02:00 PM

Well said, Zac.

bajabass - 5-4-2010 at 03:13 PM

X2 for sure. Learning the nuances will take years. I can't wait to get started!!

durrelllrobert - 5-5-2010 at 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish

I vividly recall an experience in the 1950s of my father and uncle being laughed out of a restaurant in Montana; they were dressed in plaid Bermuda shorts, all the rave at that time in our home state of California.

I have the same problem when I go to restaurants in Canada with my wife's relatives :lol:

Iflyfish - 5-5-2010 at 09:53 AM

durrellrobert,

which of you gets kicked out? canadians can be very discerning people.

Iflyfish

flyfishinPam - 5-5-2010 at 01:55 PM

five pages and Jessie's first comment is dead on.

story short one- I noticed a pattern. When going out with Mexican friends for dinner in Loreto they would tend to be on the rude and demanding side so as to impress me and my gringo friends. They sent back food, drinks, complained in general. this went on for a couple of dinners out with each of three friends on separate occasions. In the USA you act that way they mess with your order, or at least you can imagine it. Here apparently they don't think about that. I pointed out this behavior to each of these people and well we don't encounter this problem anymore.

Maybe the behavior changes around me for some reason I thought, simply because I am a sock wearing, shaved leg, sandle wearing, plaid bermuda shorts wearing kind of woman who doesn't mind being called a gringa? Hmmm.

I am sad that Juan is pressured to feel the way he does and change his behavior because of it. Francisco and I dine with gringos often and always have a great time, sh-ite we're all just people with Mexico in common. Yes there are a-holes who may treat us differently but they can be "messed with" when given the opportunity.

Cross-cultural confusion is the source of our problems. Both sides can use improvement.

shari - 5-5-2010 at 05:58 PM

thing is...Juan hasnt had to change his behavior...he never ever went to a restaurant to eat before he met me anyway!!! only went for tacos at stands here...no big deal....hmmm....messin with aholes...sounds intriguing!
things are also much different in the big cities like Loreto...much more cosmopolitan. I'm glad Francisco gets to go out to eat alot.

But it is really hard on the few locals who work with gringos...a good example are our builders who do alot of work for norte americanos building here. They tell me how they have been alienated in the village....jealousy is hideous but common. Hopefully these are just growing pains and will evolve in a more positive way as change occurs.

Iflyfish - 5-5-2010 at 10:49 PM

Zero sum thinking, "if they get theirs, I can't get mine" "There is only so much to go around" That sort of thinking makes sense in a place with finite resources. If there is only one car in town and you don't own it then you walk and may feel peeed at the guy who has one. This concept is hard to comprehend in a culture as rich as the USofA. In Mexico historically and in most of Mexico now one is lucky to find a single item of what one is looking for in a store, in the USofA the issure is having to choose between 15 different kinds of that same item.

Seriously don't you ever harbor resentment over rich folks like Trump when you are struggling to make ends meet? or the uber rich in this country who throw thousands of dollars away on dog grooming and such like that?

I scratch my head sometimes as I think about the fact that all of my neighbors have the same crap in their garages that I do. How many lawn mowers are required after all to cut all of the grass in my neighborhood?

Iflyfish

Barry A. - 5-6-2010 at 08:37 AM

IFlyfish says,

"How many lawn mowers are required after all to cut all of the grass in my neighborhood? "

I take care of my lawnmower (and everything else), and the result is my lawnmower is 35 years old and still runs great (second engine, tho). Do you think it would last that long with others in the neighborhood using it?? I don't think so. We all have different "standards" and "priorities" which make it very uncomfortable (for me at least) to let others use my equipment very often, with a few exceptions. I often shutter at the things I see my neighbors do, but I love them anyway as long as I don't have to pay for their seemingly crazy mistakes.

I have no doubt that Nomad Diane T. would think me a "worm". :lol:

Barry

Iflyfish - 5-6-2010 at 09:59 PM

I guess I won't bogart your mower Barry. My point is not to encourage communism but to point out the abundance that we live with. Though now that you mention it, some more socialism via government control and regulation might do us all some real good. Who owns the ocean that those guys have polluted anyway? Me thinks it belongs to all of us and the creatures in it.

In small communities and villages there are a limited number of material goods and in some ways that encourages cooperation, competition and jealousy depending upon the character and history and traditions of those who live there. People with access to more resources can easily be targeted by those who feel jealousy at their success. Don't you kind of resent Trump and his smug kids and the likes of Paris Hilton, et al? From wence comes our fascination with the fall of the great, i.e. Tiger Woods? I would postulate that it is a couple of the seven deadlies, common to us all; jealosy and envy.

It took cooperation for us to get out of the proverbial cave, but that doesn't mean that the short guys never hated the strong athletic types. And no, I don't want to borrow your basket ball.

On second thought I don't want your old decrepit mower, one of my other neighbors probably has a newer and better one and I will barter with him : :light:

Or better yet, in the more traditional way of the passive aggressive, I will chinga you and let my lawn grow out of control and that aught to bring down your property values. :light:

Viva la revolution Diane T! Huelga! Fight the imperialist dogs, oops, "we have seen the enemy and he is us", Pogo said that.

Iflyfishwithmytongueinmycheek

Barry A. - 5-6-2010 at 10:26 PM

Fish said, "Don't you kind of resent Trump and his smug kids and the likes of Paris Hilton, et al? From wence comes our fascination with the fall of the great, i.e. Tiger Woods? I would postulate that it is a couple of the seven deadlies, common to us all; jealosy and envy. "

The answer is no, just the opposite. I admire them all, and the success they have achieved, albiet with considerable help. I don't envy anybody their success, but I do wish that I had some of their talent. Still, I have done ok, and I am very contented with that.

LIfe is good-----no, GREAT!!!! (the Market did not help me today, tho-------groan!!!!) :no:

Barry

charchilp - 5-8-2010 at 08:15 AM

Thought of the day:

"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care."

Cheap SEO

Chapala-ex - 5-8-2010 at 11:15 AM

Re the use of "gringo", my wife relates a story from her youth in Mexico City that always brings a chuckle.

One day while playing in the front yard she (at about age 5-6) saw a bus full of north american tourists passing through the neighborhood and ran to tell her mother: "Aqui vienen los gringos! Aqui vienen los gringos!"

Her mom found that quite funny, coming from her blond, blue-eyed daughter... My wife was surprised to learn that they too were gringos from Chicago. (Her dad worked for a steel company there.)

Pescador - 5-10-2010 at 06:18 AM

I have been traveling in Mexico since the late 50's and thought that I knew a little of the language and the culture, and probably did more so than most, but it was not until I moved in to a smaller village and became a more or less permanent resident did I really feel like I became a part of the town, people and culture. When I started to look for a place to live in Mexico I knew that I was not attracted to the Norteamericano settlements like Mulege, Loreto, Punta Chivato, or San Lucas Cove, but wanted a place where there was a more natural mixture of both cultures. I did not want to give up my roots but was looking for a new challenge to see if I could develop the language skills to function and the acceptance to fit in. Because fishing is such an important part of who I am and what I am all about, I naturally gravitated to a fishing village and further gravitated to a very rewarding relationship with a fisherman who is one of my best friends. It took us awhile to develop the trust and understanding to become such good friends and must have been as difficult for him as it was for me, but with time and persistence it has worked out very well for both of us. While I have helped him to understand the Norteamericano culture and thought process, he has also helped me to see in to the workings and thoughts of the Mexican side of things. I have had to be very careful not to be seen as a "sugar daddy" but I also share when I can, but the sharing and interchange has mutual benefits for both of us.
Because of the development of this primary relationship, the community has become very open and sees me as a permanent resident so I get invited to dinner, special events, activities, and so on, but they also feel free to come to my house, especially when I play music with friends, or we have a fish fry or some other special occasion. I find that people have learned that it is ok just to come by and spend time on the porch and tell stories or just talk. some of the fishermen come by to check on what I know about the weather or predictions for the next few days, knowing that I seem to understand when it is a good time to go out. If I am painting or doing something in the yard, usually someone stops by to help a little and they will bring a fishing reel or broken rod to see if I can help fix it too.
So the part where this topic started was the restaurant experience and one of the things that I learned early was that when I had a family with me and my wife before she passed, then we were always treated well, but if I had a single male, the situation was usually different. But, it depended somewhat on how the other person acted as well. I had one friend who got that response fairly frequently so I started observing more closely about how he interacted and he did change his demeanor and I had to watch very closely to catch the small signals like hand placement, eye rolling, and tone of voice.

Nan&D - 5-10-2010 at 08:33 AM

When we used to camp out on remote beaches, we mostly spent time with other gringos, and my Spanish only ever got to "grocery store questions" level.
Now with putting down roots in Asuncion, we are living in total immersion. My Spanish is s l o w l y getting better, mainly because there are so many people that will help me struggle along. Often with alot of laughter!
We are overwhelmed with the friendships we are making. I know that if we had some kind of emergency, there would be people to help, no question, and we feel the same.

Sure wish I was there today for the Mother's Day bash!
Talk about cross-cultural differences!
N

Not confused at all...just dumb.

Pompano - 5-10-2010 at 09:38 AM

Often when a Martian comes to our village it can get a little weird, but other than that I can't say living in Mulege is more confusing than any other small town on the planet.
The little differences in culture are fun to learn...ancedotes in life...just like Up North with the Algonquin, Cree, Souix, Cheyenne, Finlanders, Swedes, and Italians.

Now I always leave that last 1/2 inch of beer in the Pacifico bottle... :rolleyes:

Did you know that...in the Canadian bush, one can get married simply by holding hands & jumping over a log together?
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As I got to know Mulege and it's people, I realized that it is exactly like the small towns one left in America.. out west..or back east..or up north... or down south. We just have better tans and catch more fish.

Tested out as border-line imbecile, I'm not a great language student and my Spanish sentence structure is still lousy after all these years, but I can converse well enough both in Spanish and matters of the heart. Folks I know here call me a Mulegeno...which is kinda nice and makes me smile a lot.

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On the other hand, American metropolis, the USA, is a zillion times more culture-confusing these days than Baja ever could be. Have you taken a taxi lately from JFK...brrr..

[Edited on 5-10-2010 by Pompano]

bajabass - 5-10-2010 at 12:23 PM

I don't know if being married to a Mexican lady helps or not, but like you and others Pompano, I am having fun while I am trying to learn the customs, culture, and lingo. My wife embraces the parts she likes. Like yesterday, Mothers Day here, a nice dinner out is expected. BUT, today is Mothers Day in Mexico, AND my wife's birthday! I better be double adoring and generous. :lol:

We have double anniversaries also. Our U.S. wedding on July 2nd, and our Ensenada Extravaganza on August 11th. Ding, Ding, Ding. :wow:

redmesa - 5-10-2010 at 12:29 PM

"All you need is love"

BajaBlanca - 5-10-2010 at 01:35 PM

Well...this has certainly been really interesting reading ... cultures are so interesting and confusing ... and we have had many lessons here

1. If Les does not invite some of our Male Mexican friends, they do not consider themselves invited, even tho I call and invite them ... this one I can understand but jeeeeeeeeeeeeez

2. One of the things we have done, since we run a B & B, is to make sure the wealth is spread ... we send our guests to eat at local spots, I take them to buy arts & crafts at the local craftsperson's house, another guy brings by his T-shirts to sell .... there is a piece of the pie for everyone

3. My family is Brazilian .... and I cannot begin to tell you the extremely complex nuances of a gringo living and being accepted in Brazil (and gringo there only means being born in a country other than Brazil)

........Someone REALLY ought to write a how to adapt book for Mexico (hint hint Shari or any others !!!) ... A book was written in Rio on "How to Be a Carioca" and you know what ? It was written as a joke but is spot on (as they say in England). A life saver for many

NOW, one of the quirky behaviours in Bocana: women go out in their pajamas in the mornings and rake their lawns ... some of them open shop in their pj's. Does this happen anywhere else ???????????????

backninedan - 5-10-2010 at 02:00 PM

In loreto they don't bother with pajamas.

Nan&D - 5-10-2010 at 02:24 PM

PJ's outside in the morning is another habit I happily adopted from my neighbour amigas. :yes:

shari - 5-11-2010 at 09:53 AM

Oh Blanca...the raking in PJ's is hilarious....I am so amazed they do this as people are so concerned about how they look!! Go figure!!

Another interesting difference is that it is not the custom to knock on someones door...ya just drive up to their house and wait till they come outside. If they dont and you really need to talk to them...you get out of your car(if you arent afraid of dogs) stroll slowly up to the house and whistle....if you cant whistle, you might say..buenos dias a few times...but actually knocking on a door is considered a bit invasive(rude).

And here is a funny cultural thing that always takes me by surprise....these are little chocolate treats are called Raztachoc...how bout THAT for packaging...think this would go over big in the STATES??

DSC05210.JPG - 46kB

tripledigitken - 5-11-2010 at 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
Another interesting difference is that it is not the custom to knock on someones door...ya just drive up to their house and wait till they come outside.

That same custom is held on the Navajo Reservation.

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