BajaNomad - Paleolithic stone tools found in San Pedro Martir

Paleolithic stone tools found in San Pedro Martir

astrobaja - 5-19-2010 at 03:09 PM

Hi all,

Had some friends down from Vista over the last few days, they brought with them a good friend from Australia. Besides being an expert in reptiles, Tony was also a amatuer archeaologist for the last 40 years. Just walking up the road which leads to Mikes Sky ranch he found many basalt hand tools most probably from the paleolithic period. Some (the darker ones) had little patina and could have been as recent as a few 100 years old. The far right shows small blades and the lower left ones are hand scrapers for hides! Amazing how stuff like this can be underfoot and all you need to know is what to look for!
Anybody know any Baja archeologists perhaps at UNAM?
I read on this page that the Pericues tribe was the last surviving members of the Clovis people which could go back as far as 50,000 bp!
http://www.utsydney.cn/www-staffit/~simmonds/Sophy/early_man...

stonetools.jpg - 28kB

astrobaja - 5-19-2010 at 03:13 PM

As shot of the nicest tool, a 3 inch blade

blade.jpg - 17kB

Thank God

MrBillM - 5-19-2010 at 03:30 PM

We've now got Home Depot.

BajaBruno - 5-19-2010 at 05:16 PM

Nice collection you have there, astrobaja. Although there is a lot of speculation about earlier dates, no one that I have read about has been able to substantiate a date for humans in the Americas before 14,000 years ago. Still a long stinking time ago, but post-Paleolithic period, I believe. None of that diminishes that you have a very interesting find.

Mexitron - 5-19-2010 at 05:34 PM

Nice collection astrobaja...! I ran into a paleontologist in the Santa Barbara backcountry years ago and he was convinced that humans have been here a lot longer than 14,000 yrs ago...but the proof isn't there yet, like BajaBruno says.

bacquito - 5-19-2010 at 08:33 PM

very interesting, we are alway learning new things and suggesting new ideas-that's just being human. Thanks for sharing.

landyacht318 - 5-19-2010 at 09:07 PM

Interesting topic.

I do have a couple arrowheads I found in Baja. It is a weird feeling to find something used by humans so long ago.

[Edited on 5-20-2010 by landyacht318]

Osprey - 5-20-2010 at 06:33 AM

Not too many tourists visiting Baja California now but there is proof all over the peninsula that early man hit the place again and again down through the ages. Many parts of the long finger don't hold enough food and water for them to stay long, other parts along the shore could and did sustain longer occupations. Close to Lake Chapala is a little cave where visitors stopped for the night for at least the last 10,000 years and there were visitors to areas down south here maybe as long as 40,000 years ago. The California and Great Basin Indian groups traveled the peninsula at about 100 miles per generation but that migration was only a few hundred years ago. They weren't tourists but people looking to stay.

Find and Release ?

MrBillM - 5-20-2010 at 07:40 AM

NAH !

There's no point since Most of us KNOW that the next guy to come along will take home the ones we leave behind.

But, if anybody wants to look and not touch so they can feel warm about their high-mindedness and superior morals, that's OK, too.

The owners of the tools aren't going to miss them.

oldjack - 5-20-2010 at 08:52 AM

Those artifacts would make a great static display(somewhere near where they were gathered) for all to enjoy... I have a metal detector in Los Barriles and have been stopped while out and about by the Police and have been warned that artifacts cannot be disturbed or removed from Baja... apparently big penalties.. just info for you...

mtgoat666 - 5-20-2010 at 08:54 AM

Cool finds. They are easy to find near sources of year-round water supply, and quite easy to findwhen you klnow what to look for.

Don't publicize the location -- just encourages "pot robbers"(and in particular do not reveal location to DK! he can't control his urges to spread the word)

wilderone - 5-20-2010 at 08:59 AM

[From the attached link]
"However, there is new evidence for people being in America at least as early as 50,000 years b.p. And there is other evidence that an earlier people, possibly an Australian or Polynesian race, were displaced by the Clovis people. Possibly the last survivors of this original people were the Pericues tribe of Baja California, who became extinct in the 18th century. This idea is politically controversial, as it could undermine Native American claims to land taken from them by Europeans, if it can be shown that they displaced an earlier people in their turn."

These statements are without proof so far.

I find scraper tools all over baja. On the Meling Ranch property, I found pot sherds, scraper tools, morteros and slicks on some of the boulders, and there are pictographs there as well. The streams running through there provided ideal habitation sites, providing essential water and well as an environment for animal species for food. People probably lived in the area, off and on for hundreds of years, in relatively small numbers.

It's difficult to determine how old these scraper tools are without more information, such as comparisons with other artifacts from other areas which do provide dating clues. The indigenous from this area don't fall into the "basketmaker" or "developmental pueblo" of the Four Corners area (including "Clovis", "Folsom", "Sandia") which has been widely studied, and with the benefit of so many artifacts over such a large area - housing (some tree ring evidence), burials, clothing, pottery, trade route clues (macaw feathers, ornamentation), weapons, tools, large middens containing DNA. But the indigenous of Baja and So. California (e.g. Cuyamaca area) didn't leave behind much to study - seemed like they never got to the Pueblo stage in spite of the fact they were known to inhabit regions as late as 200 years ago - well within the Pueblo period - but were not as advanced as other other indigenous cultures in North America. Now this would be an interesting study - why were they so different, developmentally, than their Four Corners paisons?

David K - 5-20-2010 at 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by astrobaja
Hi all,
...Anybody know any Baja archeologists perhaps at UNAM?...

Dr. Eric Ritter...

See his papers on stone tools published by the Pacific Coast Archaeological Society. (Winter, 1994 Vol. 30, No. 1)

He is the man I spoke to about the mystery walls (lost mission?) discovered by the Erle Stanley Gardner party and reported by Choral Pepper in 1966... http://vivabaja.com/109

Barry A. - 5-20-2010 at 09:57 AM

Wilderone said, " But the indigenous of Baja and So. California (e.g. Cuyamaca area) didn't leave behind much to study - seemed like they never got to the Pueblo stage in spite of the fact they were known to inhabit regions as late as 200 years ago - well within the Pueblo period - but were not as advanced as other other indigenous cultures in North America. Now this would be an interesting study - why were they so different, developmentally, than their Four Corners paisons? "

This is widely attributed too the mild climate of S. Cal./Baja and lack of "enemies" which did not require the indigenous folks to aspire to much or defend anything-------no need to, as all their immediate needs were met by the natural scene and lack of adverse conditions by moving around constantly (mountains to desert to coast, depending on the season). Sorta like So Cal today as it goes into a downward spiral of malaise and lazyness and into decay as folks "needs" are met by the increasingly socialistic society, big government, and the delightful climate. (?!?!?!?)

We will see what happens down the road. I am not optimistic. History repeating itself, perhaps.

Barry

mtgoat666 - 5-20-2010 at 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Wilderone said, " But the indigenous of Baja and So. California (e.g. Cuyamaca area) didn't leave behind much to study - seemed like they never got to the Pueblo stage in spite of the fact they were known to inhabit regions as late as 200 years ago - well within the Pueblo period - but were not as advanced as other other indigenous cultures in North America. Now this would be an interesting study - why were they so different, developmentally, than their Four Corners paisons? "

This is widely attributed too the mild climate of S. Cal./Baja and lack of "enemies" which did not require the indigenous folks to aspire to much or defend anything-------no need to, as all their immediate needs were met by the natural scene and lack of adverse conditions by moving around constantly (mountains to desert to coast, depending on the season). Sorta like So Cal today as it goes into a downward spiral of malaise and lazyness and into decay as folks "needs" are met by the increasingly socialistic society, big government, and the delightful climate. (?!?!?!?)

We will see what happens down the road. I am not optimistic. History repeating itself, perhaps.

Barry

ya, sure is funny when the white man uses all his smarts to interpret and understand the motives/desires of cultures he extinguished :lol:

crock of horse hooey, the white man basically practiced genocide, and now he is getting all touchy feely and investigating the exterminated culture :fire:

barry, your argument for easy living in so cal does not jive with same argument made for NW coast indians -- the argument that arts/buildings flourished because the living was so easy.

mtgoat666 - 5-20-2010 at 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
People probably lived in the area, off and on for hundreds of years, in relatively small numbers.

It's difficult to determine how old these scraper tools are without more information, such as comparisons with other artifacts from other areas which do provide dating clues.

probably more like lived there for 1,000s of years.

actually, age is probably quite recent. most items found on ground are usually just a few hundred years old at most. if much more time has passed, then erosion, deposition, transport, etc., has usually moved/buried the items. ground litter is usually quite recent.

astrobaja - 5-20-2010 at 11:03 AM

Mtgoat: I don't think you would classify this as a true surface find as it was on a bulldozed road which is criss crossed by many several feet deep erosion gullies. I think an educated guess given the history of the region would indicate that the main inhabitants were Kiliwa for a long time. Our oak forests (for acorns made into flour) pine nuts, and year round water probably made for an ideal habitat. Our ranch was "bought" (probably for a song) from a Kiliwa woman called Chepa by Aida Meling. There are several old falling down homesteads here.
My Wifes Uncle is Harry Crosby so I'll send him the pics, I'm sure he knows or knows someone that could shed more light.

Barry: I'm pretty sure all gatherer/hunter cultures would be considered "socialist" :yes:

The idea of individualism as it exists in so called modern culture would have been totally alien to them!
I give modern man another 50 years living as we are on the planet, before we go through a huge extinction (largely through our own stupidity) we are after all just another animal on the planet!

astrobaja - 5-20-2010 at 01:03 PM

Don Jorge:

yes thats right it is'nt underfoot anymore! It was in the middle of the road where off road vehicles and bikes tours drive. Hello but I think I may have "saved" them!! :?:

Long Gone and ....................

MrBillM - 5-20-2010 at 01:38 PM

Just as well forgotten. They're not coming back.

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE Natural History, and love seeing/finding "things" like those shown. I once found a Mexican Beer Bottle out in the Desert unlike any I'd seen before. That was cool, too. Still have it on a shelf. That had more significance than the Indian Arrowheads I'd found since it revealed something I hadn't been aware of.

Curios are neat to find, fun to look at and interesting as an indicator of previous technological progress, but nothing we haven't been aware of for a long time. If, on the other hand, we unearth a 4-Cam Fuel-injected V-12 dating back to that time period, THAT would expand our knowledge base. And, our appreciation for the Natives.

As for the people themselves, their previous lives, too, are interesting curios, but without any modern-day relevance. Whether any of them were victims of Genocide and by WHO, Who cares ? Nothing's going to bring them back and I don't know anybody who was responsible for their disappearance. Whatever European policies led to whoever's demise for whatever reason is past. Not happening anymore.

But, like I said, NEAT Artifacts. Enjoy.

[Edited on 5-20-2010 by MrBillM]

Barry A. - 5-20-2010 at 04:13 PM

Good grief, Goat------------it is freezing in the NW, and it rains all the time up there-------that ain't "easy living" in my book!! But, as northern Europe has shown, cold wet weather fosters inovation, and mankind to advance, invent things, and generally better his existance-----to try and mitigate and escape the harsh conditions that he finds in the northern latitudes.

SoCal is EASY, with little to inspire anybody, except to figure out how to relax even more, get high, and get bored-----the so called "good life". :lol:

Barry

Barry A. - 5-20-2010 at 04:45 PM

AstroBaja said, "Barry: I'm pretty sure all gatherer/hunter cultures would be considered "socialist" The idea of individualism as it exists in so called modern culture would have been totally alien to them!"

Yes, Astro, you are of course correct. Even today the general thinking in some American Indian cultures (maybe all) tends towards socialism, as my son can attest to. He has worked for the Paiutes in Bishop (6 years), and before that for the Hoopa in N. CA. (3 years), and before that on the Island of Chuuk (Truk) (3 years) in the Central Pacific------all 3 societies tending towards socialism. It serves them, and they have a long tradition of it. This may partially explain why those cultures tend to continue thru the generations pretty much the same, seldom advancing significantly (by western standards) as a society.

Barry

[Edited on 5-20-2010 by Barry A.]

mtgoat666 - 5-20-2010 at 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Good grief, Goat------------it is freezing in the NW, and it rains all the time up there-------that ain't "easy living" in my book!! But, as northern Europe has shown, cold wet weather fosters inovation, and mankind to advance, invent things, and generally better his existance-----to try and mitigate and escape the harsh conditions that he finds in the northern latitudes.

SoCal is EASY, with little to inspire anybody, except to figure out how to relax even more, get high, and get bored-----the so called "good life". :lol:

Barry

how about comparisons to Aztecs??????? you really should try to stay closer to geographic focus point of this salon

Iflyfish - 5-20-2010 at 04:50 PM

Wow, the first Socialist tools made by lazy welfare state types basking in the sun. Amazing!

Great find, the napping is clear, wonder if they were made near by?

Thanks for sharing these great pics.

Iflyfish

mtgoat666 - 5-20-2010 at 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
It serves them, and they have a long tradition of it. This may partially explain why those cultures tend to continue thru the generations pretty much the same, seldom advancing significantly as a society.

who is defining "pretty much the same, seldom advancing"?

Barry, you got blinders on. not everyone wants their society to advance so it looks like Irvine CA.

Barry A. - 5-20-2010 at 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Barry

how about comparisons to Aztecs??????? you really should try to stay closer to geographic focus point of this salon

----or even more dramatic a civilization, the Mayan's, who certainly advanced in a very mild climate------exceptions to the rule, for sure. The Aztec's did live at elevation, so not the same conditions as the Mayan's----slightly harsher.

Barry

Barry A. - 5-20-2010 at 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

who is defining "pretty much the same, seldom advancing"?

Barry, you got blinders on. not everyone wants their society to advance so it looks like Irvine CA.

I have noticed few that want to live in circumstances other than pretty much like "Irving, CA"--------Have you?

Barry

wilderone - 5-20-2010 at 06:46 PM

"actually, age is probably quite recent. most items found on ground are usually just a few hundred years old at most"

Near Bahia Asuncion, there is a large area covered with fosillized shells that must be about 2 million years old. Just sitting on top of the ground. I found an 8,000 year old drillpoint just sitting on top of the ground on an island off California. Along the cliffs at Bahia San Ignacio there are broken matates, turtle bones and scraper tools just sitting on top of the sand. About a foot below the surface there are layers of decomposing turtle shells and more scraper tools. An arid climate will preserve artifacts more so than areas that get a lot more precipitation. So it is difficult to determine the age of a scraper tool found on the ground, when it is known that habitation has occurred over several thousand years, without more. Who can say when, and what forces caused some artifact to finally be found "sitting on top of the ground"?

gnukid - 5-20-2010 at 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Jorge

Quote:

Originally posted by astrobaja
Amazing how stuff like this can be underfoot and all you need to know is what to look for!

how it isn't underfoot anymore. Does anyone just stop, marvel at the significance of the find, bend down, handle the artifacts and put them back where and how they were so perhaps other generations can enjoy the sense of discovery?

Nah,what was I thinking, of course not. Lets put it on the net!!!!!!!!!!!
:?:

Some do pick up rocks and tools and put them down again, often in different places across the globe, in tribute or by accident. This is where it becomes more difficult for archeologists to determine who and when.

wilderone - 5-20-2010 at 07:03 PM

"sure is funny when the white man uses all his smarts to interpret and understand the motives/desires of cultures he extinguished crock of horse hooey, the white man basically practiced genocide, and now he is getting all touchy feely and investigating the exterminated culture"

The Spaniards and Apaches, and the great drought of 1276 to 1299 (confirmed by tree ring dating) caused the extermination of many tribes. It's simply a study of the unknown, when the known presents itself (like a scraper tool or a pictograph). And warfare has been ongoing since man occupied earth - haven't learned a darn thing about that.

Mexitron - 5-21-2010 at 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Just as well forgotten. They're not coming back.

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE Natural History, and love seeing/finding "things" like those shown. I once found a Mexican Beer Bottle out in the Desert unlike any I'd seen before. That was cool, too. Still have it on a shelf. That had more significance than the Indian Arrowheads I'd found since it revealed something I hadn't been aware of.

Curios are neat to find, fun to look at and interesting as an indicator of previous technological progress, but nothing we haven't been aware of for a long time. If, on the other hand, we unearth a 4-Cam Fuel-injected V-12 dating back to that time period, THAT would expand our knowledge base. And, our appreciation for the Natives.

As for the people themselves, their previous lives, too, are interesting curios, but without any modern-day relevance. Whether any of them were victims of Genocide and by WHO, Who cares ? Nothing's going to bring them back and I don't know anybody who was responsible for their disappearance. Whatever European policies led to whoever's demise for whatever reason is past. Not happening anymore.

But, like I said, NEAT Artifacts. Enjoy.

[Edited on 5-20-2010 by MrBillM]

I think the idea is that folks who want to research this stuff still have something to work with in field...Baja's history is still being uncovered.

Mexitron - 5-21-2010 at 06:39 AM

On the Central Baja Coast there are many rocky soil-less areas, and occasionally you can find not only a quartz arrowhead but the pile of flakes he/she chipped off to make it (guess in that situation the arrowhead wasn't up to snuff and was discarded into the pile)...lack of soil keeps them exposed, wonder how old they could be...

Tomas Tierra - 5-21-2010 at 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
I found an 8,000 year old drillpoint just sitting on top of the ground on an island off California.

Carefull what you write..The blackhawk copters and ak47 wielding federal agents may be on the way!

Tomas Tierra - 5-21-2010 at 08:25 AM

Keep your eyes open, you never know what you'll find in Baja!!

DSCN1031.JPG - 46kB

Communal versus Socialist

MrBillM - 5-21-2010 at 09:03 AM

The argument illustrates the difficulty of adapting modern thought with ancient subsistence living.

While the primitives lived a "Communal" life, stretching that to an analogy with Socialism, which centers around a State-Ownership and Authority to govern production and distribution as understood today, is flawed.

wilderone - 5-21-2010 at 09:50 AM

ooooh Tomas - very nice. where did those come from?

shari - 5-21-2010 at 10:03 AM

Tomas....what a wonderful collection. I would love to know what the different pedernales were used for. For example, those really teeny ones with all the barbs...were they arrowheads??? or spearheads....pretty tiny spear...were they for birds, gophers, little fishies?
does anyone here know what they were used for?

Other questions are...where did they bring the obsidian from? Our area has thousands of chips and was obviously some sort of workshop but there is no bulk obsidian around that I know of.

this time of year the winds uncover new layers of chips and artifacts...they appear and disappear all the time. It was probably some kind of seasonal camp here I figure but there sure was a prolific pedernal carver here.

mtgoat666 - 5-21-2010 at 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
Other questions are...where did they bring the obsidian from? Our area has thousands of chips and was obviously some sort of workshop but there is no bulk obsidian around that I know of.

there is obsidian at valle de azufre east of you on the gulf. researchers have found evidence of "ancient" obsidian "mining" at the site.

also obsidian is found in a few central baja locations.

those crazy people were carrying rocks across the mountains on their backs, because they did not have toyota tacomas :lol:

Mexitron - 5-21-2010 at 11:00 AM

shari---that's the first time I've heard the term "pedernales" used as a noun---is that spanish? Only use I've heard it used is for a beautiful river and waterfall in the Hill Country in Texas (Pedernales State Park near Johnson City).

shari - 5-21-2010 at 11:30 AM

Pedernal is translated..."flint" which I just thought might be more "accurate" to describe what we find here. Arrowhead to me, denotes a bow and arrow type thing...spearheads obviously go on spears...
the word pedernal is commonly used in these parts to describe any of the above...things used to hunt with.

I had a wonderful big, muscular, obsidian black, shiny horse who was aptly named Pedernal.

It would be cool if someone knowledgeable in this field could do a psyber workshop in this topic...maybe through a live chat room discussion.

Perhaps this board might branch out into more creative & educational venues...we could organize chat times on certain topics of interest and invite a specialist in that field to discuss them and answer questions live.

see what I'm getting at anybody??

some suggested examples of topics...pineapple growing, gardening tips, fossils, crafts, building techniques, cooking, cultural questions, etc.
Maybe when obviously popular topics of interest crop up on the board, we could arrange a time to meet in a chat room to discuss them..just an idea.

bajalera - 5-21-2010 at 11:55 AM

Well, since qualifications are being given, I'll mention that my late husband was the first professional archaeologist to work in Baja California. Some interesting artifacts we collected and deposited in the museum in La Paz in 1964 were later colllected and taken home by the boy scouts who hung out there.

My articles published in the Pacific Coast Archaeological Society Quarterly include two on artifacts that took one helluva amount of time to make with tools made of stone:

"Table and Atlatl: Two Unusual Artifacts from Baja California," pp. 25-34
Vol. 8, No. 1

"Chacuaco: The Tubular Stone Pipe in Baja California," pp. 21-29
Vol. 12, No. 1

As for dating, archaeologist Harumi Fujita, who is based in La Paz, has collected material on Isla Espiritu Santo that she believes substantiates a date of around 45,000 B. C., but the jury is still out on whether this will be accepted.

wilderone - 5-21-2010 at 02:54 PM

"there is no bulk obsidian around that I know of."

Isla Miramar (off Huerfanito) has a huge solid obsidian deposit on its west coast, right on the beach. Also, this island is a pelican breeding and dying locale.

bent-rim - 5-21-2010 at 06:32 PM

Next time I fall off my dirt bike bike, I'll look around a little bit.

Osprey - 5-22-2010 at 06:26 AM

Fujita's excavations on Espiritu Santo were extensive and almost all of the oldest strata tools were broken shells -- hence the jury being out. We are all still waiting and it has been many years since her find. Another problem she may have is that it is very difficult to pinpoint sea levels 40,000 years BP. The specialists who do that sort of thing now use coral and coral islands and the dating process from that sounds wonderfully simple and accurate but science moves carefully, slowly. Drives me nuts. The La Paz office of INAH has literally hundreds of sites yet to explore with the world's best and smallest army of professionals. The peninsula holds surface treasures to outnumber those found in Egypt and Peru but Mexico does not have the resources for investigation right now. The place is a museum with the doors still closed.

shari - 5-22-2010 at 07:41 AM

There is a really neat valley near here where you can walk through coral reefs...the coral was around a meter high and have obviously fallen over but the pieces are all there on the ground nearly intact...pretty neat being in a coral bed from who knows how many thousands of years ago...sure wish someone could come and teach us about this area.

David K - 5-22-2010 at 09:35 AM

Yes, amazing that ocean levels were once (or several times) much higher, ...long before man ... it is a 'normal' thing, and will happen again no matter what we do!. :saint:

Mexitron - 5-22-2010 at 09:51 AM

One problem with finding proof of coastal sites older than 20,000 yrs is that they would likely be under water now, as sea level was at least 100 feet lower before that (maybe 300 feet at times in the depths of the last ice age).

Tomas Tierra - 5-22-2010 at 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
ooooh Tomas - very nice. where did those come from?

All are from BCS, between San Jaunico and La Laguna....We only found a few of those shown...The rest were traded for in El Datil, "Pengua" wanted every dang spare part I had for his Toyota :lol:

.
I was on the way home so he got em all..I got Pedernales..He had so many, If we had not found a few in the lagoon, I would have thought he was getting real good at making them..Ha had a bag with maybe 75 pieces in it..

TT

Osprey - 5-22-2010 at 10:12 AM

Shari, that's an entriguing thought; wanting people to come tell us about where we live in Baja. I think we would all want that. Someday maybe we can invite college science students to do their field work while telling all about what they know, what information they are trying to expand upon, what they hope to find and prove. In the meantime there are some very knowledgable people on the board and I'll bet if we asked the right questions we could get some excellent answers right here, right now. Took me all morning but here's a rare picture of sea levels that would help all of us answer questions about artifacts and sites in Baja California: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_level_rise

David K - 5-22-2010 at 10:19 AM

Thanks for the link Osprey... In the past 100 years they say the ocean has risen 8 whole inches! :wow:

shari - 5-22-2010 at 10:32 AM

my question was where did the people who made pedernales here get the raw obsidian....where is the closest obsidian? I googled it and came up with this answer which makes alot of sense...san ignacio lagoon area is close and I imagine this is where they got it.
http://www.swxrflab.net/VDAZUFRE.HTM

now I'm gonna try to find out what those little barbed pedernales are for.

wilderone - 5-22-2010 at 10:49 AM

very interesting, Shari - thanks.
Actually, there is a LOT of information online from scientific studies done in Baja over the years. These are pretty technical and make for difficult reading, and, personally, I have to research meaning of some of the words to understand the articles. I was just reading about the many seismic rifts that criss-cross the Baja peninsula. And, in spite of general theory about sea levels rising, because of the ongoing volcanic plates, rifts, shifts, faults, etc., in Baja the LAND is rising. This exposes ancient marine shelfs - some from the miocene era - some 5 to 23 million years ago. Really - tons of info online. A couple years ago, I read an article on the fossil shells near Bahia Asuncion. There's an article on the Loreto Basin - describing how the alluvial fan/delta area behind Loreto Bay was once part of the gulf, but off and on, until the land lifted up.

wilderone - 5-22-2010 at 10:56 AM

like, for instance -

Five main petrologic and geochemical groups can be identified among the Middle to Late Miocene lavas from the western part of southern Baja California: (1) calc-alkaline and K-rich andesites emplaced between 15.5 and 11.7 Ma; (2) adakites and (3) associated niobium-rich basalts erupted between 11.7 and 8.5 Ma in the Santa Clara volcanic field, Vizcaino Peninsula; (4) 10.6-9.2 Ma tholeiitic basalts and basaltic andesites that form large tabular plateaus near San Ignacio; and (5) magnesian and basaltic andesites of adakitic affinity whose emplacement started at 11.7 Ma south of San Ignacio and between 9.7 and 8.8 Ma near La Purisima. These lavas, although spatially and temporally related, display very different geochemical signatures. Their trace elements and isotopic characteristics suggest that three different magma sources were involved in their genesis. Partial melts of subducting altered oceanic crust produced the adakites when erupted directly at the surface. These magmas were eventually trapped in the mantle wedge where they reacted with ultramafic lithologies. Such slab-melt-metasomatized mantle could then melt to produce niobium-rich basalts or magnesian andesites, depending on the pressure that controlled the stability of garnet into the mantle wedge.

[from wikipedaea]: The Miocene is a geological epoch of the Neogene Period and extends from about 23.03 to 5.33 million years before the present (23.03 to 5.33 Ma). The Miocene was named by Sir Charles Lyell. Its name comes from the Greek words μείων (meiōn, “less”) and καινός (kainos, “new”) and means "less recent" because it has 18% fewer modern sea invertebrates than the Pliocene. The Miocene follows the Oligocene Epoch and is followed by the Pliocene Epoch. The Miocene is the first epoch of the Neogene Period.
The earth went from the Oligocene Epoch through the Miocene and into the Pliocene as it cooled into a series of Ice Ages. The Miocene boundaries are not marked by a single distinct global event but consist rather of regional boundaries between the warmer Oligocene and the cooler Pliocene.

shari - 5-22-2010 at 11:03 AM

please pass on any links anyone might have to info on this topic for our area...love to read about the fossil shells around here. There are some monster petrified pismo clams around and arroyos full of smaller ones.
still no luck identifying what the obsidian flints were used to hunt.

Osprey - 5-22-2010 at 11:18 AM

Shari, here's the link to your possible arrowhead makers, the Guaycura: http://www.innerexplorations.com/catsimple/exped4.htm

wilderone - 5-22-2010 at 02:38 PM

Microfacies Study of Dissolution and Precipitation in Littoral Deposits on the Western Coast of Baja California Sur (Mexico), by Socorro Celis-Gutierrez and Victor M. Malpica-Cruz © 1987 Coastal Education & Research Foundation, Inc..

Abstract
The study area, located on the western coast of Baja California, in its south-central portion, discloses several outcrops of well-preserved marine deposits at various elevations and thicknesses which are attributed to a series of Quaternary marine transgressions. The paleolittoral deposits form a belt parallel to the present coastline, and in some places there are as many as nine of these belts with heights between 5 and 90 m.The microfacies study provided an understanding of various diagenetic processes which have taken place in these deposits. The deposits consist mainly of well- consolidated sandstones and beach conglomerates, with both macrofauna and microfauna. The microfauna has been reworked and broken. These diagenetic processes took place in a mainly subaerial environment. The lithification began usually in a shallow marine environment and continued after the emergence under the influence of fresh water and variations of the water table, which led to the dissolution of the organic carbonates, mainly fossil shells. The oldest deposits show evidence of several dissolution phases and successive recrystallization of the cement, also the epigenesis of quartz and feldspar grains as well as caliche production as a result of Quaternary climactic changes.

wilderone - 5-22-2010 at 02:41 PM

this one is more interesting:

http://boletinsgm.igeolcu.unam.mx/epoca03/1980-41-1%20y%202%...

shari - 5-22-2010 at 03:32 PM

whew...that WAS interesting and answers some of my questions of why fossilized megaladon teeth can be found on the top of the mountain...the article described "uplifting events" around middle Miosene times...so these sharks teeth are twice as old as we thought...around 15 million years old....cool...thanks for the links...been a real science day!
still dont know what little critters were hunted with those teeny obsidian flints.

[Edited on 5-22-2010 by shari]

mtgoat666 - 5-22-2010 at 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
whew...that WAS interesting and answers some of my questions of why fossilized megaladon teeth can be found on the top of the mountain...the article described "uplifting events" around middle Miosene times...so these sharks teeth are twice as old as we thought...around 15 million years old....cool...thanks for the links...been a real science day!
still dont know what little critters were hunted with those teeny obsidian flints.

[Edited on 5-22-2010 by shari]

the 'material' is obsidian, chert or flint (flint is really a variant of chert). no such thing as "obsidian flint."

the small points were often arrow points for bow/arrow setups (arrowheads shot with bow need be small and sharp, not heavy). the small arrowheads could have been used for anything from rabbits to deer. a small arrowhead going fast can bring down a big animal.
arrows often tarvel better, faster and deeper into flesh when they have smaller tips, so don't be confused into thinking small arrowheads are for small critters

shari - 5-22-2010 at 05:06 PM

in the dictionary, the translation for pedernal is flint...so I'm confused... these "arrowheads" are made of obsidian...is a flint an arrowhead? are you sure these tiny ones about the lenth of my baby fingernail but narrower...would be on the tip of an arrow?? did they shoot mice?

It was an interesting article about the guaycuras and what they ate and made me wonder how they caught them or hunted them...and bats??? wonder how they taste?

woody with a view - 5-22-2010 at 05:22 PM

Quote:

I give modern man another 50 years living as we are on the planet, before we go through a huge extinction (largely through our own stupidity) we are after all just another animal on the planet!

PERFECT!

i should be just dead by then!

vgabndo - 5-22-2010 at 05:51 PM

From my research it appears that "projectile point" is in common use because it is often difficult to determine which manner was used to propel them. Goat is correct about the effectiveness of even small projectile points on large animals. These days, though, when very few people need deer or bear meat to survive there is little justification for not killing the animals humanely. I decry today's "sportsmen" who hide in a tree, wound the animal with an arrow, take the quad back to camp and drink beer while waiting for the animal to die in pain drowning in it's own blood.

Where I live, the people from whom we took the land lived a sustainable lifestyle. They could still be living happily as they had since the coming of man to this region were it not for the greed of the European Christians who considered then no more than heathen savages and invited them to picnics for purposes of poisoning them.

I'm proud of the last six months I've spent organizing my community to honor the craft traditions of the Karuk/Yurok/Hupa people on the rivers west of here. We now have 60 examples of fine weaving displayed in a state-of-the-art case financed and created by volunteers!

April 10th. download 084 (Small).jpg - 41kB

April 10th. download 084 (Small).jpg - 41kB

bajalera - 5-24-2010 at 12:44 PM

Vgabndo got it right--"projectile point" is a catch-all term used by archaeologists because they can't always tell whether the stones tipped an arrow or a spear.

Flint seems to be applied in much the same way--I read somewhere that this word covers three or four different materials. Can't remember what they are, but I'll bet someone else does.

Barry A. - 5-24-2010 at 01:40 PM

Excellent work, Vagabndo!!! I applaud your valuable and needed efforts here, even if I don't agree with some of your comments and interpretations.

Well done. I will have to run up from Redding and take a look.

Barry

Bwana_John - 5-24-2010 at 03:13 PM

Flint, chert, chalcedony, obsidian and all the other "glassy" type of rocks used for projectile points (because of their property's of concodial fracture) are all forms of cryptocrystalline quartz.

Their method of formation (ie volcanic, sedimentary, or metamorphic), the crystal size, and ratio of quartz to other elements are all different but the material is all very closely related in that it is mostly comprised of very very small xtls of quarz.

Bwana_John - 5-24-2010 at 03:17 PM

Quote:

are you sure these tiny ones about the lenth of my baby fingernail but narrower...w

The catch-all term for those is "bird-point" whether they were for birds,small or big game.
Even a fire hardened wood arrow tip will kill a deer if you hit it correctly. A little glass just helps things out more.

Osprey - 5-24-2010 at 06:20 PM

Mr. google says obsidian makes really, really sharp edges because IT IS NOT CRYSTALINNE. Mr google says a whole lot more about obsidian but the word quartz does not show up.

Bwana_John - 5-24-2010 at 09:22 PM

Quote:

Mr. google says

And I suppose Mr Google is a Petrologist. :rolleyes:

Sometimes Mr Google explains things so the"ignorant masses" can understand the general concept. I wouldn't get in the habit of quoting him.

Amorphous obsidian is unstable at the earths surface, with exposure to surface conditions xtls of SiO2 start to form. (there is no obsidian older than 30 Ma.)

SiO2 is silicon dioxide, and in the xtl form is also known as quartz. There are other polymorphs of SiO2 (cristobalite, tridymite, coestite, stishovite) but they are not stable under surface conditions.

You might not be able to see them (hence the "crypto" label) but they are there and they will grow with time.

Again the size of the xtls, and ratio of silicates to other minerals are slightly different and methods of formation very different but the basic building blocks for the materials used to make most stone projectile points are very similar (obsidian is ~70% silicates)

[Edited on 5-25-2010 by Bwana_John]

Osprey - 5-25-2010 at 05:56 AM

Yeah, I got it, no more Mr. google for me. Thanks

shari - 5-25-2010 at 07:26 AM

It would be interesting to date the projectile points from our driveway...are they a couple hundred or thousand years old? wonder how much it costs to date a sample....I'm hoping a student might want to come and check out the site.

Megladon tooth

Pompano - 5-25-2010 at 07:36 AM

Interesting thread indeed. Got us to wondering if this megladon tooth is older that we had first thought? Mi amigo found it in on a walk near his home north of San Jose del Cabo.

Osprey - 5-25-2010 at 07:59 AM

Shari, here's a link that may help narrow things down a little. See Don Laylander's notes (an expert on Baja Indians). The Yuman language is thought to have broken up (indicating dispersal, migration) about 2500 ybp and developed into the 3 big Indian groups of Baja, Guaycura, Cochimis and Pericu (and a host of others). Since there were multiple groups/migrations all up and down the peninsula the padernales are likely to be from 3,000 years to the 1800s. http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/baja.html

wilderone - 5-25-2010 at 08:21 AM

"wonder how much it costs to date a sample"

It is very difficult to take a rock artifact and date its time of manufacture (by humans) by istelf, without more to put it in a perspective of relative understanding. That is because the rock itself, which would be subject to the dating sciences, isn't what you're wanting to know. The most valuable circumstance is finding it in situ, and then discovering more in the immediate area which can be dated by Potassium-argon dating (found between layers); carbon 14 dating; aspartic acid racemization; dendrochronolgoy; or thermoluminescence; stratigraphy, obsidian hydration, glacial varve chronology, fission-track dating, and flourine method. For instance, if you found the point in a midden, along with bones of animals, some charcoal and pot sherds, those bones, charcoal and pot sherds can be dated and the projectile point would be assumed to be of the same age. Once that is established and you find another point of the same style, same material in a locaiton which can be assumed to be of the same culture, you can make a reasonably certain assumption based on the point alone. Knowing what is already available regarding the study, science, dating of indigenous habitation will get you started. Some factors that obscure dating of artifacts and determination of their creators, are the fact that over thousands of years, people have come and gone, repeatedly selecting a region for habitation due to its obvious appeal - source of water, flat, flora/fauna for food sources, and shelter. Points have even been found and re-worked by subsequent cultures. So it becomes even more important to see an artifact in the big picture sense, and knowing what you're looking at, to help with dating.

Bwana_John - 5-25-2010 at 09:02 AM

Quote:

It is very difficult to take a rock artifact and date its time of manufacture (by humans) by istelf, without more to put it in a perspective of relative understanding

Actually if the rock is obsidian it is very easy and cheap to date artifacts using obsidian hydration.
Because obsidian is unstable under surface conditions it absorbs water (from the outside in).
When the artifact is worked a fresh surface is exposed and starts to hydrate at a known rate.
The ouside "ring" of hydrated obsidian is measured and a date of manufacture is calculated.
It is destructive to the artifact, however.

Bwana_John - 5-25-2010 at 09:25 AM

Quote:

It would be interesting to date the projectile points from our driveway...I'm hoping a student might want to come and check out the site.

Shari,
First of all, you do NOT want a real dig in your driveway. :no:

Second, you and Juan have messed everything up for at least 1 meter deep. That information is too scrambled to do much good. :?:

If you want to get someone interested find a sight undisturbed by recent man that also has had little natural erosion or deposition either. :yes:

bajalera - 5-25-2010 at 10:19 AM

All this detailed info from guys who know what they're talking about--what a great thread!

(But I do like the idea of Mr. Google being a Petrologist.)

Cypress - 5-25-2010 at 10:26 AM

Yep!

astrobaja - 5-25-2010 at 10:30 AM

I agree quite a bit of interest in this sort of thing!! I'm wondering if with a trained eye anything could be estimated (given climate ie very dry and little rain) by looking at wear on the worked edges where the knapping has occured? Some of the tools we found have very little patina and have sharp edges still whereas others have a quite worn look. All appear to be the same type of rock....

wilderone - 5-25-2010 at 11:18 AM

This is very interesting - points from the Guerrero Negro and Laguna Manuela areas. Says could be as old as the middle archaic times - due to reoccupation of same region (mid-archaic is 3500 to 1200 BP (before present)). Also says the obsidian is from the valle del azufre deposit.

http://www.pcas.org/Vol34N4/4Ritter.pdf

wilderone - 5-25-2010 at 12:10 PM

good research articles here - probably have to order archived publications:

http://www.pcas.org/documents/PreviousArticles.pdf

Pompano - 5-25-2010 at 02:44 PM

(centimeter scale)
What looks to be a multipurpose chopping tool, between 13,000 to 15,000 years old, found near Walker, Minn.

What appear to be crude stone tools may provide evidence that people lived in Minnesota 13,000 to 15,000 years ago.

In 2007, archaeologists in the northern Minnesota town of Walker dug up the items, which appear to be beveled scrapers, choppers, a crude knife and several flakes that could have been used for cutting.

Several experts agreed it is possible people were in Minnesota that long ago.

There is an increasing body of science that there were stone stools and people here in that time period in North America. The long-accepted theory was that people first arrived in the Western Hemisphere 11,200 years ago — corresponding with the age of arrowheads found in the 1930s near Clovis, N.M. — via a land bridge from Asia over what is now the Bering Strait.

But a consensus is emerging that some humans arrived thousands of years earlier, even if scientists disagree on just how much earlier. And several agreed that if the Minnesota objects do turn out to be 13,000- to 15,000-year-old tools, they'd be among the oldest human artifacts ever found in North America. If this was the case, it is an easy transition to imagine the early visits to Baja.

That's why the local archaeologists are hoping to get back into the Minnesota site after this winter, and hope to work out a way with the city of Walker to preserve it for sometime in the future when more advanced testing methods might be available...for ALL of North America.

Once it's gone it's gone...we're looking at absolutely irreplaceable links in human history here. Once it's gone there's no retrieving it.

bajalera - 5-25-2010 at 05:02 PM

PCAS has an order form for the Quarterly that can be printed, copies are $l0 ($20 for double issues) plus postage.

wilderone - 5-26-2010 at 07:32 AM

Hmmm - read the Ritter article and saw the illustrations. I don't don't see anything similar to what I found about 15 mi. from Bahia Asuncion (inland).

In the Overstreet arrowhead guide, I see something similar from the Truxton, Apache County, AZ area (developmental phase 1500-1000 BP). Has anyone found a similar style in Baja?

bajalera - 5-26-2010 at 10:38 AM

If I remember correctly, there's a chart that organizes the different shapes of projectile points in Emil Haury's book on Ventana Cave.

[Edited on 5-26-2010 by bajalera]

Pompano - 5-26-2010 at 11:54 AM

Many of the older locals I know in the Mulege area have large point collections..arrowheads, spear & lance point, cutters, fishhooks, fishpoints, etc. One rancho senora has over 300 in her displays.

The Mulege valley and river estuary areas are a great place to go hiking.

BajaBruno - 5-26-2010 at 10:22 PM

You've got a nice one, wilderone. The time involved in making a point as detailed as that is amazing. But then, on long nights with just a campfire for light, and no computer to distract you, one may become indifferent to time.

shari - 5-27-2010 at 07:34 AM

the Ritter article was very interesting as the study was from this area...loved the 3 sisters name for laguna ojo de liebre, laguna GN and laguna manuela. Sounds like our coastal hunters were more after marine life than game...very enlightening..thanks so much for the link...wish Ritter would write a book!

wilderone - 5-27-2010 at 07:47 AM

"But a consensus is emerging that some humans arrived thousands of years earlier, even if scientists disagree on just how much earlier. And several agreed that if the Minnesota objects do turn out to be 13,000- to 15,000-year-old tools, they'd be among the oldest human artifacts ever found in North America."

There have many artifacts found in North America which suggest to some that humankind lived here much earlier than the 13,000 years or so now in agreement. Scientists though are fearful of sticking their necks out because their reputations are their bread and butter. Plenty of discoveries to ponder upon:

North of Mexico City—1920’s—remains of buried city with pottery and engraved tablets found 38 feet below surface—50,000 years old

Near the Ohio River north of Cincinnati—1826—buried tree trunk showing signs of ax marks, and embedded oxidized wedge of iron, from a well dug to 54 feet deep—50,000 to 75,000 years old

Santa Ana River Valley, Ventura County, California—1888—a dozen cogged stone wheels averaging 6.5 inches in diameter—estimated 60,000 years old

Near Montauk, Long Island, New York—1990—large machine-like components covered with undecipherable glyphs, excavated from glacial morainal till—estimated 65,000 years old

Sheguaiandah, Manitoulin Island in northern Lake Huron—1952—advanced stone tools, found in glacial deposits—65,000 to 125,000 years old

Texas Street, San Diego, California—1950 to 1953—hearth and stone tools dug up—between 80,000 and 90,000 years old

Crowley’s Ridge, Arkansas—1921—carved stone head with metal ornaments and other stone artifacts—175,000 years old

and there are others as well.

Barry A. - 5-27-2010 at 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
the Ritter article was very interesting as the study was from this area...loved the 3 sisters name for laguna ojo de liebre, laguna GN and laguna manuela. Sounds like our coastal hunters were more after marine life than game...very enlightening..thanks so much for the link...wish Ritter would write a book!

Shari------------I took the liberty to cut & paste your last post and sent it to Dr. Ritter via an e-mail----he lives just down the street from me. We will see if it gets any results. :spingrin:

Dr. Ritter is not a NOMAD, but I did alert him to this thread--------he is a very "private person" so doubt that he would ever "post", tho.

We will see. He may shoot me for bringing him into this. :lol:

Barry

shari - 5-27-2010 at 09:03 AM

barry, thanks for risking your life in the name of science...you are a gentleman and a scholar...yesterday I looked at the obsidian chips we found on our walk in a very new light with new knowledge....exciting!