BajaNomad - MX police can't shakedown cars w/ US plates over registration issues

MX police can't shakedown cars w/ US plates over registration issues

Marla Daily - 5-23-2010 at 07:01 PM

Under current interpretation of Article 106 of Mexican Customs law, authorities allow foreigners with FM3 no-inmigrante and FM2 inmigrante visas to keep their cars in the country for the period their documents are valid.

The police in Mexico cannot question registration issues of cars with US plates as long as you carry a copy of your FM3 or FM2 with you at all times, and proof of insurance.

Last week the cops in Constitution tried to extort a friend over expired stickers on US plates, and he (a former lawyer in the US) simply pulled out a copy of his FM3 and car registration and Article 106. He was immediately sent on his merry way. Doesn't matter if the US registration is expired or the car is on a non-op in the US..

noproblemo2 - 5-23-2010 at 07:10 PM

GOOD info to know, now where can we find a copy of that law, Article 106, to keep with our fm's??

gnukid - 5-23-2010 at 07:12 PM

This is true, helps to keep a copy of the articulo ciento seis and your fm-3 copy ready to hand over to a cop, generally most cops do not understand the law (nor can they read well) so unless you have read it and understand it you may not convey enough confidence to be convincing. The car should be otherwise in correct working order.

We mentioned this often here, ...

The articulo 106 can be used for many things, I understand.

JESSE - 5-23-2010 at 07:12 PM

read the article, did not see anything regarding not being able to question registration issues.

irenemm - 5-23-2010 at 07:19 PM

gnukid
are you talking about local cops. Because the black and white all have to have a college degrees before they can become a cop.

gnukid - 5-23-2010 at 08:08 PM

I am talking city cops in la paz, many can't read or write beyond hen scratch... in response to the message about expired tags in baja and referencing articulo 106....

Most foreigners don't seem to understand that there is a long list of reasons that you could give for why they guy shouldn't bug you, they're just not the types of answers that would come to mind, but bascially all you need to say with confidence is no molestarme, no se puedes-and don't even look at the guy, they will usually turn and walk in fear. When they say show me your registro de placas, I normally just say affirmatively out the window "Obvio No tiene permiso a molestarme por articulo ciento-seis." They probably do not know what it means but they understand I do. The cops will turn on their feet and walk when you stand up for yourself-they are scared.

Just remember they are bluffing and criminal, even if they take you to jail and threaten you they are bluffing and will give up in a short time and apologize and ask you not to tell anyone what happened.

Remember to take pictures of the person, right away, write down all facts and report it anonymously, pay attention, people who pay mordida and laugh it off are creating a corrupt pattern we all suffer greatly from.

If everyone who was being bothered for mordida under false charges actually took pictures and wrote down facts and paid attention and stood their ground, the mordida game wouldn't pay and it would end, it continues because people pay for reasons which are based on false ideas, fears, fake threats etc...

I have recently been hassled by a older cop named Juan Carlos from La Paz who makes up all kind of false charges and threatens you, he thinks he speaks english but I insist on spanish so everyone could follow the conversation, he had 4 other cops with them and big guns. I said let's to go to the station and they took me 30 minutes to a distant police station in los plannes, there I casually explained that I was very interested in understanding who wanted to be the officer in charge to press the charges and who was not willing to sign a statement of facts and they all folded like cry babies in about 15 minutes then apologized and asked me not to tell anyone. They will always apologize and ask you not tell anyone if you stay calm and persistent that the only crime is the one being perpetrated of falsifying charges.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

gnukid - 5-23-2010 at 08:19 PM

ARTICULO 106 LEY ADUANERA EN VIGOR

ARTICULO 106. Se entiende por regimen de importacion temporal, la entrada al pais de mercancias para permanecer en el por tiempo limitado y con una finalidad especifica, siempre que retornen al extranjero en el mismo estado, por los siguientes plazos.

FRACCION IV. Por el plazo que dure su calidad migratoria, incluyendo sus prorrogas, en los casos.

a) Las de vehículos propiedad de extranjeros que se internen al país con calidad de inmigrantes rentistas o de no inmigrantes, excepto tratándose de refugiados y asilados políticos, siempre que se trate de un solo vehículo.

Los vehículos podrán ser conducidos en territorio nacional por el importador, su cónyuge, sus ascendientes, descendientes o hermanos, aun cuando éstos no sean extranjeros, por un extranjero que tenga alguna de las calidades migratorias a que se refiere este inciso, o por un nacional, siempre que en este último caso, viaje a bordo del mismo cualquiera de las personas autorizadas para conducir el vehículo y podrán efectuar entradas y salidas múltiples.

Los vehículos a que se refiere este inciso, deberán cumplir con los requisitos que señale el Reglamento.

ARTiCLE 106. Temporary importation means the entry into the country of merchandise which will remain for a limited time and with a specific purpose, provided that it be returned to the exterior unaltered; for the following periods.

SECTION IV. For the period which coincides with the period granted for the immigration category of the owner, including any extensions.

The vehicles can be driven in Mexico by the importer, his or her spouse, their parents and grandparents, etc, their decedents, their brothers or sisters, even when those relatives are not foreigners, or by a foreigner who has the same immigration category as one of those herein referenced, or by a Mexican citizen, provided in this latter case, that a person authorized to drive the vehicle is within the vehicle. Such vehicle is authorized to make multiple exits and returns from and to Mexico.

Vehicles referred to in this section must meet the requirements pointed out in the regulations.

BAJA.DESERT.RAT - 5-23-2010 at 08:21 PM

Hola, as noproblemo2 stated, where can we get a copy of article 106 ? if you are going to quote an item, please be so kind as to substantiate it. b.s. abounds on all websites !

definitely, if it would impress any mordida cop, we really do need the ammunition to do so.

BIEN SALUD, DA RAT

BAJA.DESERT.RAT - 5-23-2010 at 08:28 PM

Hola gnukid, thank you for posting the spanish version of which i will translate with google translate and keep several of both copies in my glove box. i also am not a fan of mordida and am not in any hurry in my travels and will spend a weekend to go to " court " to dispute any unwarranted violations.

appreciatively,

DA RAT

gnukid - 5-23-2010 at 08:37 PM

Anyone can search the Mex Gob sites to find the reference to the ley aduana de los estados unidos de mexico

Basically the law applies to all kinds of stuff but specifically your transportation vehicle legally imported will remain legal for the period of your legal immigration status.

If you read it carefully it could apply to a lamp, train, etc... depends.

http://www.aduanas-mexico.com.mx/claa/ctar/leyes/la.html#art...

http://mexico.justia.com/federales/leyes/ley-aduanera/titulo...

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by BajaNomad]

slimshady - 5-23-2010 at 08:39 PM

Where is the part refering to registration?

bajalou - 5-23-2010 at 08:52 PM

I believe the article applies to vehicles temporally imported to Mexico - in other words, you have paid the fee and got a Temp. Imp. Permit when you brought the car to Mexico. This is the process you must use taking a car into other parts of Mexico, but is not required in Baja. This TIP is your authorization for operating the vehicle in Mexico (with a valid FMT, FM3 or FM2).

This is what I was told while getting a TIP in Sonora a while ago.

gnukid - 5-23-2010 at 08:52 PM

It doesn't say the word registration, its says a vehicle that entered legal will remain legal for the period of the legal immigration-interpolation from that, one could be about 4 years behind up to 5 years behind with your us registration and still be legal but to be legal and correct you would have to demonstrate you were legal at the time you arrived and that period of time in contiguous with your current immigration status (aka your current book) for the entire period of your fm2 or fm 3 book if you had not returned home with the vehicle. If you are not confident enough to read the law and interpret it to apply to you you won't likely be successful in using it and would better served with a onapafa sticker in BCS if you understand the limitations of that form or another similar temporary alternative in the north.

gnukid - 5-23-2010 at 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
I believe the article applies to vehicles temporally imported to Mexico - in other words, you have paid the fee and got a Temp. Imp. Permit when you brought the car to Mexico. This is the process you must use taking a car into other parts of Mexico, but is not required in Baja. This TIP is your authorization for operating the vehicle in Mexico (with a valid FMT, FM3 or FM2).

This is what I was told while getting a TIP in Sonora a while ago.

Correct it references the TIP into Mexico not the Frontier so one might think it only applies to mainland but one can reference it in Baja and refer to the law, one could reasonably expect that local Baja police might not be familiar with it, which you can use to your advantage or not.

Also, if you read it carefully, if even a parking lightbulb was out it nullifies the legal extensions, a smart cop could find a flaw in your vehicle and people who let their reg expire generally have other issues too.

gnukid - 5-23-2010 at 09:03 PM

I make a couple of manila folders with a complete set of copies of reg, article 106, police report form, fm3, dl and I hand that to the officer and tell him/her there are free to go, thank you for your help. Once you have all this they won't actually even look at it before they give up and if they do they will be intimidated that you might report them for bugging you.

Police incident report

SECRETARIA de TURISMO

Identification
IDENTIFICACION ______________________________________________________
Officer
OFICIAL ______________________________________________________________
Badge #
INSIGNIA ______________________________________________________________
Name
APELLIDO/NOMBRE ___________________________________________________
Brand of Automobile
MARCA DE AUTOMOVIL _______________________________________________
Place of Registration
PLACA DE MATRICULA ________________________________________________
City
CIUDAD _______________________________________________________________
Department
DEPARTAMENTO ______________________________________________________
Receipt
RECIBO _______________________________________________________________
Signature Date and Time
FIRMA _____________________________FECHA Y HORA ___________________

gnukid - 5-23-2010 at 09:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by morgaine7

Quote:

ARTICULO 106 LEY ADUANERA EN VIGOR

That's customs law, not traffic law. The car may be legal, but in La Paz, at least, traffic regulations state that a foreign driver's license is only valid for a car with current registration and plates from the same country. So they could nail you for that.

ARTÍCULO 52.- Las licencias para conducir expedidas por otros Municipios del Estado, así como las de otras entidades federativas tendrán validez siempre y cuando se encuentren vigentes; de igual forma las expedidas por las autoridades en otros países donde exista reciprocidad y en este último caso, siempre que vehículo porte placas y registro vigentes del país donde la licencia fue expedida.

-- REGLAMENTO DE TRÁNSITO DEL MUNICIPIO DE LA PAZ

Kate

Yes, one can interpret the laws in many ways, and a cop that wants to bug you can always find a way. I wouldn't count on using articulo 106 as a get free card but it does let the cop know you are well informed which is my point, if for example you are only out of date for a short time.

gringos need to get out of their frame of mind that everything must be correct, instead you need to think in terms that make sense to Mexico, basically that the cop shouldn't bother you since it might be costly or risky for them to do so as opposed to free reign to threaten you with false charges.

But really why would you have an expired registration anyway, right? That's just an excuse to bug you.

Dave - 5-23-2010 at 09:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid

Most foreigners don't seem to understand that there is a long list of reasons that you could give for why they guy shouldn't bug you, they're just not the types of answers that would come to mind, but bascially all you need to say with confidence is no molestarme, no se puedes-and don't even look at the guy, they will usually turn and walk in fear. When they say show me your registro de placas, I normally just say affirmatively out the window "Obvio No tiene permiso a molestarme por articulo ciento-seis." They probably do not know what it means but they understand I do. The cops will turn on their feet and walk when you stand up for yourself-they are scared.

Just remember they are bluffing and criminal, even if they take you to jail and threaten you they are bluffing and will give up in a short time and apologize and ask you not to tell anyone what happened.

Remember to take pictures of the person, right away, write down all facts and report it anonymously, pay attention, people who pay mordida and laugh it off are creating a corrupt pattern we all suffer greatly from.

I can't speak for la Paz but trying something like this in Rosarito, TJ or Ensenada is a recipe for trouble. I've never met a cop up here who either appeared scared or appreciated a lecture. I know people who have been arrested and/or their cell phones confiscated for attempting to take pictures or record evidence of police confrontations.

gnukid - 5-23-2010 at 10:07 PM

Dave,

I know that its very hard for gringos to understand how to reframe the conversation in a way that makes sense to a Mexican Cop without being insulting, I guess its not possible for most gringos to change their frame of reference to speak in terms that can be understood for the culture where you are interacting with confidence. And yes, as hard as it to believe, most cops are actually afraid of being caught for their indiscretion-that's why they threaten people and exaggerate the circumstance to intimidate you.

I did not and would suggest you act like an insulting idiot, I said stand up for yourself with confidence and when they make a totally false accusation say you do not have permission to bother me in this case and gather data, pay attention, make a report for yourself of the location, time, describe the incident for yourself and take photos where possible without offending anyone. This is a reasonable plan where ever you are when you find yourself in legal trouble but you don't do it in a manner that is obvious to the cop or threaten them in any way.

Again, I try to help you old timers out but you don't seem to be willing to help yourselves.

Please do not pay mordida ever and do not be afraid of cops who make false charges.

JESSE - 5-23-2010 at 11:46 PM

Talked to my lawyer, he says each state, municipality, has its own traffic laws that have to be enforced. In short, this law does not protect you at all.

Dave - 5-24-2010 at 12:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Talked to my lawyer, he says each state, municipality, has its own traffic laws that have to be enforced. In short, this law does not protect you at all.

And my attorney tells me that if your vehicle is attached to your FM then state or local authorities have zero jurisdiction. Unless your vehicle is involved in an accident, the only authority that has the right to even question you about its status is migra.

And for those who would argue that this only applies to the mainland:

I had a vehicle listed on my FM3 for several years...In Rosarito.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by Dave]

JESSE - 5-24-2010 at 01:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Talked to my lawyer, he says each state, municipality, has its own traffic laws that have to be enforced. In short, this law does not protect you at all.

And my attorney tells me that if your vehicle is attached to your FM then state or local authorities have zero jurisdiction. Unless your vehicle is involved in an accident, the only authority that has the right to even question you about its status is migra.

And for those who would argue that this only applies to the mainland:

I had a vehicle listed on my FM3 for several years...In Rosarito.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by Dave]

Good luck with that lol!

Pescador - 5-24-2010 at 05:19 AM

Well, here is the issue in a nutshell. I have an older vehicle that I drive only in Baja and since I do not keep insurance current from the US, I can not get registration in the state where I keep an address. I guess I could pay the insurance, get the car registered, and then drop insurance, but in Colorado you need to have a current emissions sticker, which is a little hard to get down here.
So, if I can drive the car for a few years, and try to use the Articulo 106 to get me by, can that truly be any worse than doing the ONAPAFFA registration?
Also, since I do not drive the car to La Paz or any of the big cities, I think the last registration, and a copy of 106 may work just fine and I just hope that Jesse's lawyer never comes this far north.

wessongroup - 5-24-2010 at 06:06 AM

got one too... however I spent the money for the tags and insurance... in California... it's not THAT much... insurance through costco for a junker drive down here is adequate... if they want to through me in jail over a fender bender .... so be it.. but, think that is really remote.. once the injured parts finds I don't have deep pockets.. they can get their car fixed and their cuts and bruisers ..... but, as for hitting the jackpot.. nada... no go.. won't happen here... with me... plus I go really slow...

mtgoat666 - 5-24-2010 at 06:44 AM

can you imagine the uproar if a bunch of immigrants in US were using a chat board to discuss legal loopholes to laws in US requiring people to carry car insurance and keep cars registered?
i think if you are driving around mexico in cars that are for all intents and purposes imported (but still carrying US tags), and you are driving around without valid registration of vehicle, they should be able to sting you for some violation of law, if not a violation of common sense and moral law.

Osprey - 5-24-2010 at 06:58 AM

Gnukid, you are going to have to rent a hall. I know you are a champion of the people and a great public speaker. You are going to have to round us all up, take as much time as necessary and teach us how to speak to Mexican authority. It's obvious you are the king, know all the nuances -- you'll have to teach us about when to look forceful, when to remain silent, when to whip out our special papers. That particular lecture, in person and in depth will be of great help to me personally and I will feel a lot more confident about picking up my friends at the airport (or dropping them off) as the federales have that staked out and are using the POE laws and authorities there which they don't enjoy on the highways and byways. Consider us all freshmen when you set up your presentation.

wessongroup - 5-24-2010 at 08:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
can you imagine the uproar if a bunch of immigrants in US were using a chat board to discuss legal loopholes to laws in US requiring people to carry car insurance and keep cars registered?
i think if you are driving around mexico in cars that are for all intents and purposes imported (but still carrying US tags), and you are driving around without valid registration of vehicle, they should be able to sting you for some violation of law, if not a violation of common sense and moral law.

goat we agree on this one... now how about that...

gnukid - 5-24-2010 at 08:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
can you imagine the uproar if a bunch of immigrants in US were using a chat board to discuss legal loopholes to laws in US requiring people to carry car insurance and keep cars registered?
i think if you are driving around mexico in cars that are for all intents and purposes imported (but still carrying US tags), and you are driving around without valid registration of vehicle, they should be able to sting you for some violation of law, if not a violation of common sense and moral law.

Perhaps you misunderstand, this is not a discussion of loopholes, its a discussion about the law as it written. I certainly do not encourage anyone to circumvent the law. The issue at hand is perhaps much different for those who live in the farthest reaches of Baja California Sur than it is for Baja regions to the north. I have often felt the discussions of these two regions are so different it makes no sense to discuss them in the same context, which is what leads to so much misunderstanding and apparent discontent here.

For example, if a visitor to Baja held a valid a FM-2 visa and was perhaps a senior retired and had gone to a Bahia Asuncion with all valid and legal documents and vehicle in October and while there was incapacitated and under care of his family, while subsequently his California Registration was due in Jan and consequently expired, while he in fact had paid the fees, yet failed to receive his sticker at his remote address, he, according to Mexicos Customs law had fulfilled his obligation under Articulo 106, IV, he or his family would therefore have the legal right to return in the vehicle to California at a later date in the vehicle, in order to receive his sticker.

The reasons for this justification are obvious and a far cry from the nefarious nature which you imply. These laws are somewhat consistent across countries and regions and are meant to support those who follow the law's intent.

It's unfortunate that our fair community is so often misguided by negativity from seniors who apparently couldn't tell the difference from law abiding citizens versus outright criminality.

As a younger traveler I often find these foul minded seniors in camper parks and while I encourage them to get out and see the world and interact, as well as mind their diet to ensure a positive outlook, one can not meet them all. I wish you the best viejito, get out and enjoy the day-harumph.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

Mexicorn - 5-24-2010 at 08:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
Gnukid, you are going to have to rent a hall. I know you are a champion of the people and a great public speaker. You are going to have to round us all up, take as much time as necessary and teach us how to speak to Mexican authority. It's obvious you are the king, know all the nuances -- you'll have to teach us about when to look forceful, when to remain silent, when to whip out our special papers. That particular lecture, in person and in depth will be of great help to me personally and I will feel a lot more confident about picking up my friends at the airport (or dropping them off) as the federales have that staked out and are using the POE laws and authorities there which they don't enjoy on the highways and byways. Consider us all freshmen when you set up your presentation.

Kid consider charging a 100 peso admission. I'd buy a ticket!

Osprey - 5-24-2010 at 08:50 AM

You would pay? Makes my point.

Mexicorn - 5-24-2010 at 08:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
You would pay? Makes my point.

What can you say I'm on the Frosh/Soph team.

gnukid - 5-24-2010 at 08:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup

goat we agree on this one... now how about that...

I understand from your post wessongroup, that you find it more suitable that Ministerial Police officers who find a senior fellow and his wife parked at the beach with a registration sticker days or weeks out of date, should without question be arrested and taken to remote police stations, and held in prison with their car impounded until such time that they can pay $400 or $1000 for their release? Or worse?

I find your interpretation to be misguided and more likely either you fail to understand the circumstances which allow and encourage false arrest, kidnapping, extortion and which threaten the very well being of our compatriots here and threaten the only remaining economy of Baja-tourism by threatening the tourists inappropriately.

Now, in the words of my grandmother which I hope you can correctly interpret, "you crazy old timers ought to get your head examined"!

Just Obey the Law and Register your Vehicle
MrBillM - 5-24-2010 at 09:27 AM

Or, Pay the consequences for not doing so.

I'm amazed at those who have a stated "Moral" objection to paying Mordida when they are Caught, BUT will go to extraordinary measures like this to save a few bucks or a little hassle and avoid paying valid fees to the U.S., Mexico or both.

gnukid - 5-24-2010 at 09:45 AM

In California we get a reg sticker for one year, nearing expiration one can only apply for renewal within a close time frame, I think its 60 days, so even if you apply in advance by mail or online correctly they may respond with a question as often occurs, and then they must send you your sticker. This creates a difficult case for those with an expiration which occurs in the preceeding month of their registration during their Baja visit if their trip is extended either as planned or otherwise by changing circumstances.

The pueblos of BCS are quite a distance from many travelers home city where registration occurs, and where in most cases a reg sticker would be sent. So, it may occur, often that while a person is actually legal, paid, and registered their sticker may not be applied to their vehicle.

It is in these cases and similar ones where the right to return is clarified and supported by Mexican Federal Aduana Law by articulo 106, IV where the vehcicle was legal on entry and is still otherwise legal as a temporary import except for the foreign sticker where the primary vehicle owner's immigration is valid and contiguous from the time of entry, with respect to an FM2 or FM3.

Why some of you (Goat, Bill, and Wesson) would claim a higher power and question this clearly written law and its application to revoke that authority is beyond me? While in fact an argument could be made that seniors who question and disagree Mexican Customs Laws threaten the well being of the community.

This case, is an example of a real problem on Baja Nomad, bad info from people who do not understand the region, the law or the circumstances and a plethora of senior posting moments which undermine the general informative nature of the site which would otherwise serve well meaning travelers.

What's worse, is instead of us, as a group, working to improve the community, gathering to clean beaches, focusing on recycling, improving sewage treatment and reducing our negative impact, which would be worthwhile, instead we have a peanut gallery of misguided naysayers who by their lack of knowledge would gladly put others at risk of illegal and unfair incarceration.

Again this same case can be made for other possessions in some cases from reading article 106 and one should be aware of the law and how it applies to you.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

gnukid - 5-24-2010 at 09:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Talked to my lawyer, he says each state, municipality, has its own traffic laws that have to be enforced. In short, this law does not protect you at all.

And my attorney tells me that if your vehicle is attached to your FM then state or local authorities have zero jurisdiction. Unless your vehicle is involved in an accident, the only authority that has the right to even question you about its status is migra.

And for those who would argue that this only applies to the mainland:

I had a vehicle listed on my FM3 for several years...In Rosarito.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by Dave]

Dave is far more correct based on my experience. With due respect to Jesse you could not ave ever been in a situation where the law would apply to you in this case nor would any other Mexican National so you would have never witnessed the high tension moments of its application where necessary.

I have had the opportunity to travel with diplomats state of foreign nations who have made these laws clear to me with reference to the legal council, and I have been in the circumstances where this applies.

The cops who unfairly hassle you and make false charges are clearly bluffing-they have no such authority in this case, why any of you would claim their position is valid and to be respected is absurd, they will fold every time when you stand up for yourself.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

R U Gnukidding ?
MrBillM - 5-24-2010 at 10:02 AM

What a Crock.

To begin with, there is a clear lack of gnureading comprehension. Nothing I've said questions the law. I could care less WHAT the law says or HOW it is interpreted.

I was addressing this seeming obsession by Gringos to go to lengths to figure out some way they can save a few bucks.

All I can say about gnu and his gnubian fellows is that I've been registering multiple vehicles in California online for as long as it has been available, including when there was a fee for doing so. I have NEVER had a question or any other problem which delayed the registration and I would doubt it is an actual problem.

gnukid - 5-24-2010 at 10:07 AM

Bill me too, how do you get your sticker delivered to you when you are in a pueblo 800 miles south of the border?

If it takes 3 weeks to process the reg typically, a BCS vacation is at least 2 weeks, what do you do when the overlap puts you in a case where you are legal but the sticker isn't in your hand? Do you include a copy of article 106 with your old reg and ask to continue or to go silently to a remote mexican jail cell with vehicle impounded? If you prefer the jail, explain why?

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

durrelllrobert - 5-24-2010 at 10:07 AM

I have a SINDICATURA SOS sticker on my windshield and another one with TJ and Ensenada phone numbers glued on the back of my DL. When ever I'm stopped I hand it to cop with that side up. SINDICATURA also provides complaint form to report attempted mordida, etc.

SINDICATURA is an organization that you can join for $25.00 that will get you a SOS sticker for your car if you are driving in Mexico, as well as a few other packet items. The sticker loudly announces to the Mexican cops and officials that you are a member of Support Our Sindicatura. The Sindicatura is a Mexican government organization whose purpose is to fight corruption among the police and other public officials. So you put one of these stickers on your car or truck and, reportedly, the shake-down cops will leave you alone. With “mordida” prices experiencing rapid inflation in recent years (basically, whatever you have in your wallet), the $25.00 sticker is a smart investment. You can request a packet by writing to: Support of Sindicatura, 7349 Millikin Avenue #140-234, Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91730. Or email sosindicatura@hotmail.com

mtgoat666 - 5-24-2010 at 10:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
In California we get a reg sticker for one year, nearing expiration one can only apply for renewal within a close time frame, I think its 60 days, so even if you apply in advance by mail or online correctly they may respond with a question as often occurs, and then they must send you your sticker. This creates a difficult case for those with an expiration which occurs in the preceeding month of their registration during their Baja visit if their trip is extended either as planned or otherwise by changing circumstances.

The pueblos of BCS are quite a distance from many travelers home city where registration occurs, and where in most cases a reg sticker would be sent. So, it may occur, often that while a person is actually legal, paid, and registered their sticker may not be applied to their vehicle.

It is in these cases and similar ones where the right to return is clarified and supported by Mexican Federal Aduana Law by articulo 106, IV where the vehcicle was legal on entry and is still otherwise legal as a temporary import except for the foreign sticker where the primary vehicle owner's immigration is valid and contiguous from the time of entry, with respect to an FM2 or FM3.

Why some of you (Goat, Bill, and Wesson) would claim a higher power and question this clearly written law and its application to revoke that authority is beyond me? While in fact an argument could be made that seniors who question and disagree Mexican Customs Laws threaten the well being of the community.

This case, is an example of a real problem on Baja Nomad, bad info from people who do not understand the region, the law or the circumstances and a plethora of senior posting moments which undermine the general informative nature of the site which would otherwise serve well meaning travelers.

What's worse, is instead of us, as a group, working to improve the community, gathering to clean beaches, focusing on recycling, improving sewage treatment and reducing our negative impact, which would be worthwhile, instead we have a peanut gallery of misguided naysayers who by their lack of knowledge would gladly put others at risk of illegal and unfair incarceration.

Again this same case can be made for other possessions in some cases from reading article 106 and one should be aware of the law and how it applies to you.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

be honest, newkid, the issue is not talking about tourists spending a few weeks in mex when their plates expire. the issue is about people who leave US cars in mexico for several years, and likely never planning to take car back to states

tjBill - 5-24-2010 at 10:22 AM

About 1/3 of cars in TJ are registered in the US. Another large percentage have expired US plates. Their owners find it cheaper to pay an occasional bribe to a policeman than pay for the registration.

gnukid - 5-24-2010 at 10:22 AM

Goat, I am sorry that you world view is a negative one, there are more good and honest people than not, perhaps that something to consider. Again, I would encourage you eat healthy foods, vegetables, and a diverse nutritional diet. It has been discovered that most cases of depression are caused by chemical imbalance due to poor diet. Alcohol also is a depressant and a toxin.

JESSE - 5-24-2010 at 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Talked to my lawyer, he says each state, municipality, has its own traffic laws that have to be enforced. In short, this law does not protect you at all.

And my attorney tells me that if your vehicle is attached to your FM then state or local authorities have zero jurisdiction. Unless your vehicle is involved in an accident, the only authority that has the right to even question you about its status is migra.

And for those who would argue that this only applies to the mainland:

I had a vehicle listed on my FM3 for several years...In Rosarito.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by Dave]

Dave is far more correct based on my experience. With due respect to Jesse you could not ave ever been in a situation where the law would apply to you in this case nor would any other Mexican National so you would have never witnessed the high tension moments of its application where necessary.

I have had the opportunity to travel with diplomats state of foreign nations who have made these laws clear to me with reference to the legal council, and I have been in the circumstances where this applies.

The cops who unfairly hassle you and make false charges are clearly bluffing-they have no such authority in this case, why any of you would claim their position is valid and to be respected is absurd, they will fold every time when you stand up for yourself.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

The subchief of police of La Paz just told me that its only someones interpretation of the law, and it does not mean is correct. They will stop you, and they will give you a ticket. If you want to fight the ticket based on this particular argument, you can do that, but it won't get you out of a fine.

I am not an expert on this, i am just giving you extra info to take into consideration if your going to go ahead and rely on this interpretation of the law.

gnukid - 5-24-2010 at 12:13 PM

Which chief? The Commandante of Transito? Was it either Juan Carlos or Celso? Was it a Malecon Tourist Chief, Antonio? Who are you referencing? Certainly the chief is not in the position of threatening and extorting visitors for on the spot fines in the area of $400 which is what we are defending ourselves against.

Though yes you point out the divisions of authority of La Paz are not coordinated nor consistent. In the case we refer to, if a person properly communicated their legal position and were ticketed, that would be fine. The MP will not ticket when they threaten on the spot mordida. With ticket in hand one would arrive at the Transito and go to the window to make your case before the judge and it would be dismissed or reduced to a reasonable level, likely 30 pesos. If not one would visit the Federal office for support and get an order to follow the federal law.

Again, Jesse, you would never do this, nor ever have you been in the circumstance of being illegally incarcerated or threatened with unrealistic and absurd fines and having your car impounded or burned by the MP, which would require you to defend yourself.

Please, you would object to me explaining to you what happens to a Mexican national in equally odd circumstances.

Ad please do not fault me for knowing the law and responding in a calm reasonable manner to unreasonable threats to my family and well being.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

JESSE - 5-24-2010 at 01:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Which chief? The Commandante of Transito? Was it either Juan Carlos or Celso? Was it a Malecon Tourist Chief, Antonio? Who are you referencing? Certainly the chief is not in the position of threatening and extorting visitors for on the spot fines in the area of $400 which is what we are defending ourselves against.

Though yes you point out the divisions of authority of La Paz are not coordinated nor consistent. In the case we refer to, if a person properly communicated their legal position and were ticketed, that would be fine. The MP will not ticket when they threaten on the spot mordida. With ticket in hand one would arrive at the Transito and go to the window to make your case before the judge and it would be dismissed or reduced to a reasonable level, likely 30 pesos. If not one would visit the Federal office for support and get an order to follow the federal law.

Again, Jesse, you would never do this, nor ever have you been in the circumstance of being illegally incarcerated or threatened with unrealistic and absurd fines and having your car impounded or burned by the MP, which would require you to defend yourself.

Please, you would object to me explaining to you what happens to a Mexican national in equally odd circumstances.

Ad please do not fault me for knowing the law and responding in a calm reasonable manner to unreasonable threats to my family and well being.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

Lic Frine Cota Zuñiga, the boss of all of those guys you mentioned, and the lawyer in charge of all matters concerning the La Paz PD.

All you have is an interpretation of the law, if it gets some people out of trouble, fine with me, but i wouldn't accept it as fact.

wessongroup - 5-24-2010 at 01:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup

goat we agree on this one... now how about that...

I understand from your post wessongroup, that you find it more suitable that Ministerial Police officers who find a senior fellow and his wife parked at the beach with a registration sticker days or weeks out of date, should without question be arrested and taken to remote police stations, and held in prison with their car impounded until such time that they can pay $400 or $1000 for their release? Or worse?

I find your interpretation to be misguided and more likely either you fail to understand the circumstances which allow and encourage false arrest, kidnapping, extortion and which threaten the very well being of our compatriots here and threaten the only remaining economy of Baja-tourism by threatening the tourists inappropriately.

Now, in the words of my grandmother which I hope you can correctly interpret, "you crazy old timers ought to get your head examined"!

What you "understand" my post to goat to be, is not up for a restatement, and for you to characterize as you find convenient..

The statement is that I agreed with goat on one post.. my previous post states that I have one too, (an old car which I keep down here in Baja) but that I keep the registration current in California along with insurance in both the United States and Mexico... we have an FM2.. which is all we need at this point in time..

As for the "law"... that appears to be written "State by State" per Jesse... and of course will be interpreted differently by each Municipality and then differently within each Municipality due to any number of conditions.. which one would expect..

With that in mind.. I would prefer to error on the side of my ease of mind and just have the car properly registered and currently insured and with proof in the glove box..

In that manner... this entire discussion and finger pointing does not occur. I have been stopped and my current registration and insurance verified on site by the Police Officers in one case and the Army in another, in Mexico.. and we have SENTRI on both vehicles we have in Mexico.. along with registration and insurance.. just thought it would be a lot easier, to carry my Passport and FM3 with me at all times ... in Mexico and now in the United States... plus my new passport has a chip in it so they know where I am most of the time...

One can do what they wish.. I prefer to go my route... as for Granny, God bless... but, lets see what happens to HER if she is stopped driving her vehicle without current registration and proof of insurance while driving in the United States.. believe traffic infractions are classified as misdemeanors, have not been associated with Traffic Enforcement in a very long while .... any others join in on current penalties for driving in the Untied States..... with invalid registration, and no insurance coverage, and lets throw in being in the States on a visa from Mexico.. how would it be treated...

Class A Misdemeanor

The penalty for a Class A misdemeanor may include a fine up to $10,000, or imprisonment for up to 9 months, or both; however, for a repeat offender, the term of imprisonment may increase up to 2 years.

Class B Misdemeanor

The penalty for a Class B misdemeanor may include a fine up to $1,000, or imprisonment for up to 90 days, or both; however, for a repeat offender, the term of imprisonment increase up to 2 years.

Class C Misdemeanor

The penalty for a Class C misdemeanor may include a fine up to $500, or imprisonment for up to 30 days, or both; however, for a repeat offender, the term of imprisonment increase up to 2 years.

Thats from the States, simple Google.. seems about right .. not sure on Mexico...

And the word picture of an old couple on the beach enjoying a sunset... and then being thrown against their car... spread eagle, with guns drawn.. cuffs slapped on... Please...

Would offer that may be true, but find it really hard to imagine it to be an on going policy by most of the local police.. if so.. how long would it take for the word to get out... not long one would think.

Would also offer that the position of tell the arresting police officer what the law is.... yeah, why don't you tell him he needs to shine his shoes, shave a little closer and his gig line isn't straight ...

Have at big guy... every one has their approach to problem solving... and reading "posts"....

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by wessongroup]

gnukid - 5-24-2010 at 02:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Which chief? The Commandante of Transito? Was it either Juan Carlos or Celso? Was it a Malecon Tourist Chief, Antonio? Who are you referencing? Certainly the chief is not in the position of threatening and extorting visitors for on the spot fines in the area of $400 which is what we are defending ourselves against.

Though yes you point out the divisions of authority of La Paz are not coordinated nor consistent. In the case we refer to, if a person properly communicated their legal position and were ticketed, that would be fine. The MP will not ticket when they threaten on the spot mordida. With ticket in hand one would arrive at the Transito and go to the window to make your case before the judge and it would be dismissed or reduced to a reasonable level, likely 30 pesos. If not one would visit the Federal office for support and get an order to follow the federal law.

Again, Jesse, you would never do this, nor ever have you been in the circumstance of being illegally incarcerated or threatened with unrealistic and absurd fines and having your car impounded or burned by the MP, which would require you to defend yourself.

Please, you would object to me explaining to you what happens to a Mexican national in equally odd circumstances.

Ad please do not fault me for knowing the law and responding in a calm reasonable manner to unreasonable threats to my family and well being.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

Lic Frine Cota Zuñiga, the boss of all of those guys you mentioned, and the lawyer in charge of all matters concerning the La Paz PD.

All you have is an interpretation of the law, if it gets some people out of trouble, fine with me, but i wouldn't accept it as fact.

That's awesome you checked with Lic. Zuniga. I appreciate that, isn't the Procurador's interpretation is the one which matters to Zuniga? I specifically referenced the law as it appears in its current iteration on the government site which states that the vehicle will remain a legal vehicle during the period of your legal status as we 've discussed. It's the Federal Aduana Law Articulo 106 IV, if you wish to believe otherwise that is fine, but why are you arguing with me about a well known law which affects millions of people and is respected throughout the country except perhaps by you, why? This is in response to combating MP extortion of extended visitors?

I think many are missing the point, we want law and order, we want vehicles and drivers who are not current to be off the road. We as a group appreciate an attempt by Ministerial Police to do the job.

What is not okay, is certain officers who attempt to demand fines and worse kidnap people, impound vehicles and bring them to remote police stations to extort them for large amounts of money as occurs to expats who don't seem to understand the reasonable limits of the law-apparently.

So in response to this circumstance, in the case where I have been accosted or others, I refer to the law which does apply in order to defuse the situation.

Now, Jesse it would be great if people could call you when they are being held in the little casitas for their alleged offenses, and you would come and insist a ticket be given which referenced actual law, then the person could pay the reasonable fine. But Jesse, you do not offer that service. On the other hand, my friends do need help in these circumstances and they do not know what to do or say so I do go when called and I do reference the law and they are released with an apology in every case so far, I wonder why?

I related the types of responses which do work, likely similar to your responses, namely that you would identify yourself with your documentation, for example in our case a copy of our FM2 or FM3 which does make a difference in the interpretation of the law at some point.

In discussing these issues it must be an advantage to know the law, as opposed to making incendiary statements as do so many. I happen to know the law, I also do not break the law and my life is quite easy for that reason. But many here do not know the law and they pay false fines in the many hundreds to thousands of dollars and that is wrong though they do not know how else to respond.

My advice to you who are accosted is to defend yourself by being prepared and demonstrate your documentation. Politely refuse to pay on the spot fines directly to police or anyone because that would clearly be against the law and a criminal offense which actually could be prosecuted.

Now we could take this further and describe more aspects of the law, surprisingly that doesn't seem to be of interest to many of you but it should. Now what this thread is really about is extortion, not visitors who are eagerly breaking the law.

Just as an added note, if you do get an onapafa sticker, it is a local municipal sticker and if you drive into the Federal offices near Soriana to pay taxes or perhaps into Pichilingue and park inside the port authority your car could nad likely would be impounded for circumventing Federal law. They do this all the time.

Furthermore, while Federal Military are present throughout La Paz, they also ignore many crimes while intervening in others as is their choice. Demonstrating the division of power, and interpretation, an altercation occurred reportedly in the last weeks where Military confronted Ministerial Police for illegal activity and a police man who was named Juan Carlos was shot and subsequently disappeared. We also know that there are serious problems with failures to respect the law throughout many divisions of the enforcement of law and these failures are being confronted by both citizens and in many cases opposing forces of enforcement.

Please do not blame me for any of this, I have never been given a ticket for illegal behavior in Mexico, I am a legal person and I only responding to support those who have been or will be targeted for extortion.

Finally, I remind you that corruption will always exist but those criminals who pursue illegal behavior will always back down in fear if you stand up for yourself, remind them of the law as it exists and refuse to pay mordida on the spot. And if you do break the law, accept the ticket and be on your way to pay it immediately.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

gnukid - 5-24-2010 at 03:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup

goat we agree on this one... now how about that...

I understand from your post wessongroup, that you find it more suitable that Ministerial Police officers who find a senior fellow and his wife parked at the beach with a registration sticker days or weeks out of date, should without question be arrested and taken to remote police stations, and held in prison with their car impounded until such time that they can pay $400 or $1000 for their release? Or worse?

I find your interpretation to be misguided and more likely either you fail to understand the circumstances which allow and encourage false arrest, kidnapping, extortion and which threaten the very well being of our compatriots here and threaten the only remaining economy of Baja-tourism by threatening the tourists inappropriately.

Now, in the words of my grandmother which I hope you can correctly interpret, "you crazy old timers ought to get your head examined"!

What you "understand" my post to goat to be, is not up for a restatement, and for you to characterize as you find convenient..

The statement is that I agreed with goat on one post.. my previous post states that I have one too, (an old car which I keep down here in Baja) but that I keep the registration current in California along with insurance in both the United States and Mexico... we have an FM2.. which is all we need at this point in time..

As for the "law"... that appears to be written "State by State" per Jesse... and of course will be interpreted differently by each Municipality and then differently within each Municipality due to any number of conditions.. which one would expect..

With that in mind.. I would prefer to error on the side of my ease of mind and just have the car properly registered and currently insured and with proof in the glove box..

In that manner... this entire discussion and finger pointing does not occur. I have been stopped and my current registration and insurance verified on site by the Police Officers in one case and the Army in another, in Mexico.. and we have SENTRI on both vehicles we have in Mexico.. along with registration and insurance.. just thought it would be a lot easier, to carry my Passport and FM3 with me at all times ... in Mexico and now in the United States... plus my new passport has a chip in it so they know where I am most of the time...

One can do what they wish.. I prefer to go my route... as for Granny, God bless... but, lets see what happens to HER if she is stopped driving her vehicle without current registration and proof of insurance while driving in the United States.. believe traffic infractions are classified as misdemeanors, have not been associated with Traffic Enforcement in a very long while .... any others join in on current penalties for driving in the Untied States..... with invalid registration, and no insurance coverage, and lets throw in being in the States on a visa from Mexico.. how would it be treated...

Class A Misdemeanor

The penalty for a Class A misdemeanor may include a fine up to $10,000, or imprisonment for up to 9 months, or both; however, for a repeat offender, the term of imprisonment may increase up to 2 years.

Class B Misdemeanor

The penalty for a Class B misdemeanor may include a fine up to $1,000, or imprisonment for up to 90 days, or both; however, for a repeat offender, the term of imprisonment increase up to 2 years.

Class C Misdemeanor

The penalty for a Class C misdemeanor may include a fine up to $500, or imprisonment for up to 30 days, or both; however, for a repeat offender, the term of imprisonment increase up to 2 years.

Thats from the States, simple Google.. seems about right .. not sure on Mexico...

And the word picture of an old couple on the beach enjoying a sunset... and then being thrown against their car... spread eagle, with guns drawn.. cuffs slapped on... Please...

Would offer that may be true, but find it really hard to imagine it to be an on going policy by most of the local police.. if so.. how long would it take for the word to get out... not long one would think.

Would also offer that the position of tell the arresting police officer what the law is.... yeah, why don't you tell him he needs to shine his shoes, shave a little closer and his gig line isn't straight ...

Have at big guy... every one has their approach to problem solving... and reading "posts"....

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by wessongroup]

Referencing California law as it applies to Californians is not relevant, what would be a more accurate comparison is a new arrival to the USA who is a foreigner with a foreign plated vehicle. Do you know the law in that case as is relevant, yep, the individual has a period of time following his arrival to become legal and any ticket is actually a warning otherwise known as a fix it with no actual fine due unless the individual fails to comply. I believe the time frame is ten days or two weeks- I don't recall the specific period. But my point should be clear to you.

Furthermore notice the number of foreigners with out of date registration who are not ticketed at all in California, because they have a legal right to a period of time.

Lastly, in reference to explaining the law to police, we were discussing demonstrating the law to Municipal transit police who are not quite so well versed in their law as California officers are comparatively. In either case, I wonder why I have not received a ticket in nearly a lifetime but I am periodically pulled over and questioned yet you are certain that my clearly written advice is of no help?

I will gladly accept a ticket for an infraction. Somehow when I explain the law as it is to a CHP and tell them I understand they could site me specifically where I broke the law, they have always sent me on my way sans ticket, likely because I am respectful and honest, as I urge you all to be. Yes, I have many tools to this game and I would gladly share them, but it seems few will listen, so be it.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

gnukid - 5-24-2010 at 03:09 PM

Just as a tip, here's a tool that always works anywhere when you get pulled over, change the subject to food, the police will always forget what he was doing.

JESSE - 5-24-2010 at 05:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Which chief? The Commandante of Transito? Was it either Juan Carlos or Celso? Was it a Malecon Tourist Chief, Antonio? Who are you referencing? Certainly the chief is not in the position of threatening and extorting visitors for on the spot fines in the area of $400 which is what we are defending ourselves against.

Though yes you point out the divisions of authority of La Paz are not coordinated nor consistent. In the case we refer to, if a person properly communicated their legal position and were ticketed, that would be fine. The MP will not ticket when they threaten on the spot mordida. With ticket in hand one would arrive at the Transito and go to the window to make your case before the judge and it would be dismissed or reduced to a reasonable level, likely 30 pesos. If not one would visit the Federal office for support and get an order to follow the federal law.

Again, Jesse, you would never do this, nor ever have you been in the circumstance of being illegally incarcerated or threatened with unrealistic and absurd fines and having your car impounded or burned by the MP, which would require you to defend yourself.

Please, you would object to me explaining to you what happens to a Mexican national in equally odd circumstances.

Ad please do not fault me for knowing the law and responding in a calm reasonable manner to unreasonable threats to my family and well being.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

Lic Frine Cota Zuñiga, the boss of all of those guys you mentioned, and the lawyer in charge of all matters concerning the La Paz PD.

All you have is an interpretation of the law, if it gets some people out of trouble, fine with me, but i wouldn't accept it as fact.

why are you arguing with me about a well known law which affects millions of people and is respected throughout the country except perhaps by you, why?

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

I am not arguing with you, i am just relaying what the boss who is also a well known lawyer said, people are free to make their own informed desitions based on the info provided.

slimshady - 5-24-2010 at 05:18 PM

People tend to leave their heads at the border. We can all agree that we can not drive a vehicle anywhere in the USA without proper registration and tags. However some of think that it is ok to drive around mexico without all the proper docs and tags just becuase it is mexico.

Some people do it because they feel that law only applies to the U.S. some will just pay the mordita, and some just want to save money.

Regardless since we Northern brothers stick out why would anybody want to give the cops any reason to pull us over and pay the mordita. Yet people still complain about the corruption even though they are skirting the law themselves.

Not all traffic stops are illegal and paying the mordita is ten times better than paying any citation you would recieve in the U.S..

So either update your registration, register in South Dakota, or don't drive on public roads.

Who said that?
Dave - 5-24-2010 at 06:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by slimshady
However some of think that it is ok to drive around mexico without all the proper docs and tags just becuase it is mexico.

It's not what I think. Mexican immigration told me it was the proper procedure. My car was plated in Oklahoma. At the time, the state required annual inspection. You think I was gonna drive 3,000 miles each year to keep the tags current when Mexican immigration law said it wasn't necessary?

wessongroup - 5-24-2010 at 06:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup

goat we agree on this one... now how about that...

I understand from your post wessongroup, that you find it more suitable that Ministerial Police officers who find a senior fellow and his wife parked at the beach with a registration sticker days or weeks out of date, should without question be arrested and taken to remote police stations, and held in prison with their car impounded until such time that they can pay $400 or $1000 for their release? Or worse?

I find your interpretation to be misguided and more likely either you fail to understand the circumstances which allow and encourage false arrest, kidnapping, extortion and which threaten the very well being of our compatriots here and threaten the only remaining economy of Baja-tourism by threatening the tourists inappropriately.

Now, in the words of my grandmother which I hope you can correctly interpret, "you crazy old timers ought to get your head examined"!

What you "understand" my post to goat to be, is not up for a restatement, and for you to characterize as you find convenient..

The statement is that I agreed with goat on one post.. my previous post states that I have one too, (an old car which I keep down here in Baja) but that I keep the registration current in California along with insurance in both the United States and Mexico... we have an FM2.. which is all we need at this point in time..

As for the "law"... that appears to be written "State by State" per Jesse... and of course will be interpreted differently by each Municipality and then differently within each Municipality due to any number of conditions.. which one would expect..

With that in mind.. I would prefer to error on the side of my ease of mind and just have the car properly registered and currently insured and with proof in the glove box..

In that manner... this entire discussion and finger pointing does not occur. I have been stopped and my current registration and insurance verified on site by the Police Officers in one case and the Army in another, in Mexico.. and we have SENTRI on both vehicles we have in Mexico.. along with registration and insurance.. just thought it would be a lot easier, to carry my Passport and FM3 with me at all times ... in Mexico and now in the United States... plus my new passport has a chip in it so they know where I am most of the time...

One can do what they wish.. I prefer to go my route... as for Granny, God bless... but, lets see what happens to HER if she is stopped driving her vehicle without current registration and proof of insurance while driving in the United States.. believe traffic infractions are classified as misdemeanors, have not been associated with Traffic Enforcement in a very long while .... any others join in on current penalties for driving in the Untied States..... with invalid registration, and no insurance coverage, and lets throw in being in the States on a visa from Mexico.. how would it be treated...

Class A Misdemeanor

The penalty for a Class A misdemeanor may include a fine up to $10,000, or imprisonment for up to 9 months, or both; however, for a repeat offender, the term of imprisonment may increase up to 2 years.

Class B Misdemeanor

The penalty for a Class B misdemeanor may include a fine up to $1,000, or imprisonment for up to 90 days, or both; however, for a repeat offender, the term of imprisonment increase up to 2 years.

Class C Misdemeanor

The penalty for a Class C misdemeanor may include a fine up to $500, or imprisonment for up to 30 days, or both; however, for a repeat offender, the term of imprisonment increase up to 2 years.

Thats from the States, simple Google.. seems about right .. not sure on Mexico...

And the word picture of an old couple on the beach enjoying a sunset... and then being thrown against their car... spread eagle, with guns drawn.. cuffs slapped on... Please...

Would offer that may be true, but find it really hard to imagine it to be an on going policy by most of the local police.. if so.. how long would it take for the word to get out... not long one would think.

Would also offer that the position of tell the arresting police officer what the law is.... yeah, why don't you tell him he needs to shine his shoes, shave a little closer and his gig line isn't straight ...

Have at big guy... every one has their approach to problem solving... and reading "posts"....

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by wessongroup]

Referencing California law as it applies to Californians is not relevant, what would be a more accurate comparison is a new arrival to the USA who is a foreigner with a foreign plated vehicle. Do you know the law in that case as is relevant, yep, the individual has a period of time following his arrival to become legal and any ticket is actually a warning otherwise known as a fix it with no actual fine due unless the individual fails to comply. I believe the time frame is ten days or two weeks- I don't recall the specific period. But my point should be clear to you.

Furthermore notice the number of foreigners with out of date registration who are not ticketed at all in California, because they have a legal right to a period of time.

Lastly, in reference to explaining the law to police, we were discussing demonstrating the law to Municipal transit police who are not quite so well versed in their law as California officers are comparatively. In either case, I wonder why I have not received a ticket in nearly a lifetime but I am periodically pulled over and questioned yet you are certain that my clearly written advice is of no help?

I will gladly accept a ticket for an infraction. Somehow when I explain the law as it is to a CHP and tell them I understand they could site me specifically where I broke the law, they have always sent me on my way sans ticket, likely because I am respectful and honest, as I urge you all to be. Yes, I have many tools to this game and I would gladly share them, but it seems few will listen, so be it.

[Edited on 5-24-2010 by gnukid]

You might want to have your Granny read over things before you post...

I did not supply California law.. (said it was a short Google for what is a misdomeanor) and I also asked the question, what would happen? to an individual who was stopped in the United States.. I asked for individuals with Traffic Enforcement experience to help out... as I have not been involved in Traffic Enforcement in a very long while...

As for how many, illegal drivers are in California.. had nothing to do with any point I made rather a rethorical statement about the issue as seen from a potential driver in the United States driving without valid vehicle registration and proof of insurance.. and again, that was directed at your Granny...

As to your approach, to help an ignorant Mexican police officer that "couldn't possibliy" understand something as complex as vehicle registration requirements in his own country... shame on you ... I really don't think the Mexican people are as lame as all that... it is really pretty simple.. is your car registered ? and do you have current proof insurance coverage? Please may I see it... not really that hard... and having need of a lawyer to make sense out of this is like Obama talking about oil well leaks..

Gladly accept the ticket.. would hope so...... and guess we are just different in the way approach these situations ... never found it necessary to "explain the law" to a Highway Patrol Officer in any State where I have been stopped ... they always seemed quite knowledgeable on it... Chapter and verse...

Again.. one can handle the situation as one wants.. and see their are others posting with a more reasonable approach to this situation ... carry current registration, and proof of insurance with you in your vehicle which you are driving and/or in control of...

I'm not a well know lawyer, but have the same suggestion... you can make your own informed decesion based on all available facts.. as it should be ... Happy driving...

And slimshady.. ditto's also...

Funny how this is another reflection of what one shall have on their person when:

Someone is legally driving a motor vehicle in Mexico or the United States.. or should I use undocumented?

gnukid - 5-24-2010 at 07:17 PM

Wessongroup, it seems you are having quite a different conversation than I thought I was having with you, I guess it's quite easy to be misunderstood with electronic communication.

The conversation I was having is in regard to unreasonable extortion in Mexico.

have fun and good luck!

wessongroup - 5-24-2010 at 07:21 PM

No worries... I would not want to undergo extortion.. here or anywhere.. on the same page with that one....

gnukid - 5-24-2010 at 07:29 PM

Just to clarify for anyone who is completely confused:

There is a problem on occassion in Baja where police attempt to extort foreigners for outrageous amounts of money.

I referenced a packet of materials one should have on board which demonstrate you're legal which should help to avoid confusion. The packet includes, copies of your dl, reg, fm-2 or fm-3, insurance, copy of article 106 section IV, sindacatura info and a simple sheet of questions about time, place etc... Keep electronic copies.

I understand this is objectionable to many posters who conflate me suggesting having this packet as somehow wanting to get away with something illegal.

I, repeat, encourage everyone to complete their reg, have a visa and insurance and dl and I encourage you to know the law, apparently very few do.

Good luck

[Edited on 5-25-2010 by gnukid]

JESSE - 5-24-2010 at 07:45 PM

It appears we have another opinion, just talked to the head of Hacienda in town, and he agrees with Gnukid. So this is getting interesting and confusing.

He agrees about what?
Dave - 5-24-2010 at 08:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
It appears we have another opinion, just talked to the head of Hacienda in town, and he agrees with Gnukid. So this is getting interesting and confusing.

And it shouldn't be confusing that any Mexican authority would interpret and/or enforce laws according to whim and profit. It seems to be national sport. I don't know why the government even bothers to code them.

That said, IMO it's one of the attractions of living here. You pay for the right opinion and you can do anything.

Marla Daily - 5-24-2010 at 08:27 PM

Goodness but what a floodgate was opened with my original post! We keep a car full-time at our home in Loreto, which has California plates, and is registered every year in California for $5 as a "non-op." This status means the vehicle is registered, but it will not be operated, moved, towed or left standing (parked) upon any California highway. We have Mexican insurance on the car, and by our interpretation of Article 106 we are within what the Mexican law allows for the length of our FM2 and FM3 visas. The car we drive back and forth to Loreto is kept registered in California and is insured both in California as well as in Mexico. Pretty simple.

gnukid - 5-24-2010 at 08:29 PM

Hi Jesse,

Please do not put me in the middle of Zuniga and the Hacienda as having an opinion. I do not. I just follow the law printed on the government web sites which is what I have stated here.

This is in response to the problem with extortion of mordida on the spot by MP under threat of kidnapping and incarceration for falsified charges.

ncampion - 5-24-2010 at 09:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Marla Daily
Goodness but what a floodgate was opened with my original post! We keep a car full-time at our home in Loreto, which has California plates, and is registered every year in California for $5 as a "non-op." This status means the vehicle is registered, but it will not be operated, moved, towed or left standing (parked) upon any California highway. We have Mexican insurance on the car, and by our interpretation of Article 106 we are within what the Mexican law allows for the length of our FM2 and FM3 visas.

To get Mexican insurance, you must have US insurance. Can you get US insurance on a "non-op" vehicle???

slimshady - 5-24-2010 at 10:39 PM

Do you get tags too for the current year? California does not make it easy to keep vehicles in Mexico, thats why I registered it in another state where I pay a third of the cost and no dam smog test every two years. It's Cal's loss.

wessongroup - 5-24-2010 at 10:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
It appears we have another opinion, just talked to the head of Hacienda in town, and he agrees with Gnukid. So this is getting interesting and confusing.

now wait a minute... him or his Granny?

Non-op and Mexican insurance
Marla Daily - 5-25-2010 at 06:14 AM

Hi Nick and others,

With a non-op the vehicle is still considered registered in California, and no annual stickers are given. (To drive the car on California streets the status of the vehicle must be changed back to active/operational and a current sticker will be provided.) We have Mexican vehicle insurance through Lewis & Lewis [www.mexicanautoinsurance.com/ ], a company we have used for more than 20 years.