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RIP, CCC

Bajatripper - 6-12-2010 at 02:43 PM

This past week, the ownership of CCC (Centro Comercial Californiano) changed from the Ruffo Family to the Chedraui brand, a grocery store chain from the mainland (like Soriana and Ley). The Ruffos are a local family with roots dating back to the mid-1800s, when the patriarch, the first Don Antonio Ruffo, arrived on the local scene and quickly established the family fortune in the pearl industry before moving on to commerce. The Perla de La Paz--the old mercantile house that burned down three-four years ago--was also of the Ruffos.

While the evidence of this change is hard to detect (the three regional stores still carry the "CCC" name), for native Sudcalifornianos it is a dramatic one. On a couple of sites, I've read some heated exchanges between native born locals and recent arrivals on just what this change represents. Natives are sorry to see them go and will miss the service and selection they provided while mainlanders favor the competition, think the CCCs were for rich people, and don't see what all the fuss is about.

The first CCC, at Bravo and Isabel La Catolica, opened in 1969 as the Ruffos' unseated the Mercado Aramburo on Madero and Hidalgo (the place with the cow aloft) as the largest (and only) grocery store south of Ensenada.

For thirty years, the CCC had the "supermarket market" all to itself in BCS (Aramburo was always a cross between a "Mexican market" and a U.S.-styled grocery store, even selling gasoline during the 1950s-60s). Local politics blocked the entry of competition into the state. Local commerce still had the political clout to make that happen. But as tourism has become the dominant (legal) economic force in the state, political control has been shifting towards Los Cabos (where our current governor is from) and new faces.

Ten years ago, the door was opened to grocery store chains from the mainland. Officially, the reason given was that it would benefit the local population (which is increasingly from the mainland). But there were those who suspected that another reason could have been to help trim some of the Ruffo influence in local politics.

Ironically, in the last couple of years the Ruffos have spent over 200 million pesos in renovations of their business empire (which still include three or more local businesses).

One of the things that the CCC has been known for is its variety of foreign goods, which simply can't be found anywhere else (who else carries English muffins?).
The new owners have said that they will continue to exploit this market. Lets hope so, or nobody will miss the old CCCs more than the local community of Americans and Canadians.

I, for one, am sorry to see them go.
Steve G

David K - 6-12-2010 at 02:46 PM

Thanks Steve... very interesting! :light:

Hook - 6-12-2010 at 03:32 PM

I often read, with envy, the items that were carried by the CCCs. For your sake, I hope it doesnt change much.

Do you know what chain on the mainland this new ownership family operates? Santa Fe, by any chance?

Bajatripper - 6-12-2010 at 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
I often read, with envy, the items that were carried by the CCCs. For your sake, I hope it doesnt change much.

Do you know what chain on the mainland this new ownership family operates? Santa Fe, by any chance?

Chedraui is the name of the chain. They were first established in Veracruz, if memory serves me still.

Steve G

comitan - 6-12-2010 at 04:14 PM

I am not happy with this I had over 1600 pesos in points earned I may have lost them. :mad:

Bajahowodd - 6-12-2010 at 04:28 PM

On one level, this appears to be nothing more than what has been happening in the US for decades. It's called capitalism.

My other point was that from my perspective, the BCS marketplace was held captive for way too long by their first governor, Aramburo. As memory serves me, it was CCC that was the pioneer in breaking Aramburo's monopoly on the BCS supermarket industry.

In a similar vein, a very popular dry goods store named Dorian's, that had just a few stores in the Northwest of Mexico, was gobbled up by Sr. Slim's conglomerate, and recently renamed Sears. I really had to chuckle at that turn of events, because, although I'm certain that integrating brands results in cost savings, from a US perspective, Dorian's was more akin to Nordstrom than it was to Sears. Today, in the US, who shops at Sears???

oldlady - 6-12-2010 at 04:47 PM

Thanks for the history. I've enjoyed CCC. My experience has always been a good one. They marketed well to foreigners both in their customer service department and in their responsiveness to obtain specific products when they had their suggestion box.
The economies of scale (large inventory and compettive pricing) do favor a well run large store or chain. On the other hand, our local "corner market" always amazes with the amount and variety of inventory they have in a space that is not as big as Wal-Mart's produce section. They even have a small butcher counter and Russet type potatoes(which I have never seen in the big stores)! Mom is gracious, Dad has a ribald humor and their 11 year old son would put most kids north of the border to shame with his speed on a paper tape calculator and in making change.
My trips to town have grown fewer....'cept when I am hungry for an English Muffin.

oladulce - 6-12-2010 at 05:15 PM

Thanks for posting the history Bajatripper.

The 2 stores in our local pueblo are about the size of a quarter of an aisle at CCC and supplies and variety are very limited. Friends say there are definitely items available at CCC that you can't find anywhere else. Our first time in a CCC was recently and we were with a couple of fellow nomadas as a matter of fact.

We were walking around wide-eyed, taking in all the stuff that was available on our first shopping trip in La Paz and a man walks by and whispers to all of us, " if you're looking for the pickles, they're right over there", as if this was the last pickle stronghold on the continent. We didn't need any pickles but gave him a thumbs-up and replied " "Hey, thanks man" for sharing his secret spot.

I haven't been shopping in BCS long enough to know what I'll be missing from CCC, but I get the impression it will be missed by many.

JESSE - 6-12-2010 at 05:20 PM

Prices are up in almost all departments at the new Chedraui, service has gone south, and the time you spent at the checkout counters has doubled.

I personally used to be a good customer of CCC, but i am reducing all my business to a few products i can't find anywhere else.

In my opinion, they are loosing customers at an alarming rate, and by the time they realize this, it will be too late.

tiotomasbcs - 6-12-2010 at 05:37 PM

Plochman's mustard, Annie's, Vlassic pickles, etc. I love CCC. Loved??! Their Produce has always been excellent, too. They never could figure out how to list the correct prices on the shelves, tho!! Beefeaters! !! Ouch!

BajaBlanca - 6-12-2010 at 06:47 PM

we here in la bocana are really lucky, our local coop mini market carries many costco items

)))))

longlegsinlapaz - 6-12-2010 at 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
I am not happy with this I had over 1600 pesos in points earned I may have lost them. :mad:

Yup Comitan....you've lost your points....or at minimum, the flexibility to use them in the variety of ways formerly available to you.

Purportedly, Chedraui's method is that you still earn points for purchases, HOWEVER, those points will only be credited against periodic "in-store (Blue-Light) Specials"....which can't be true because the same guy told me they'd only ask for the Chedraui card IF YOU HAPPEN TO BUY A DESIGNATED PERIODIC "In-store (Blue-Light) Special" item!

There's a special desk (NOT the Customer Service Desk) in the Colima store where an English-speaking guy trades out your CCC card for a Chedraui card & they give you a paper with your CCC points balance to take to the cashier to transfer your formerly easily redeemable points to the Chedraui card. The guy could not tell me whether the full balance could be applied to these special items, or only a portion of the amount. The fact that he went to great lengths to explain to me they will not be scanning the Chedraui card each time through the register tells me that future purchases do not earn further points/credit/nada.

The individual I spoke with said he had no idea whether or not Chedraui plans to maintain current stocking policies for imported items. My personal concern is that CCC is THE ONLY store in BCS who carries imported perishable U.S. dairy products....milk, sour cream, cottage cheese, etc. & from the quantities of these items that CCC's been stalking for the past 11 years, I'm not the only person who depends on the availability of these items.

I've only made one trip in since the change, few customers were in the store & I had to ask the cashier if she could please interrupt the gab fest with another cashier & 3 baggers long enough to turn on the moving counter so I could finish unloading my cart....& since I had her attention if I could possibly impose on her to start to ringing up my purchases. :fire:

Prices are higher. My jury is still out, but if they don't continue stocking imported dairy products, I might as well save gas & shop at Walmart. I think it might be too soon to determine how responsive they're going to be to public requests regarding stocking policies & customer service concerns.

I'm in mourning for the old CCC!

DENNIS - 6-12-2010 at 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper
On a couple of sites, I've read some heated exchanges

What sites would those be?

Bajatripper - 6-13-2010 at 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper
On a couple of sites, I've read some heated exchanges

What sites would those be?

Here are some:
http://colectivopericu.wordpress.com/2010/5/29/oficial-chedr...

http://peninsulardigital.com/mas/extra/la-operacion-de-chedr...

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Yo-tampoco-quiero-que-cambien-...

for an interesting recap of Chedraui history, try here:

http://www.oem.com.mx/elsudcaliforniano/notas/n1657142.htm

I hope this will be of help,
Steve G

PS
If they fail to function, get back to me so I can find where the typo is, my old eyes fail me sometimes anymore.

DENNIS - 6-13-2010 at 11:24 AM

Thanks, Steve. I appreciate that.

bajajazz - 6-13-2010 at 11:25 AM

We are curious as to the Ruffo's motivation to sell CCC, after going to such strenuous, expensive and seemingly successful efforts to meet the competition introduced into the La Paz marketing area by the Ley, Soriana and Walmart chain operations?

We wonder if their decision to sell was predicated on an awareness of some bad economic news that's coming down the road, or was it merely that they received an offer too good to refuse?

Since CCC was a privately-held company, the decision to sell was obviously elective and it seems strange that they'd sell after investing so much time, energy and money in expanding and improving their operation.

Bajatripper - 6-13-2010 at 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajazz
We are curious as to the Ruffo's motivation to sell CCC, after going to such strenuous, expensive and seemingly successful efforts to meet the competition introduced into the La Paz marketing area by the Ley, Soriana and Walmart chain operations?

We wonder if their decision to sell was predicated on an awareness of some bad economic news that's coming down the road, or was it merely that they received an offer too good to refuse?

Since CCC was a privately-held company, the decision to sell was obviously elective and it seems strange that they'd sell after investing so much time, energy and money in expanding and improving their operation.

From other sources on the Internet, the predominant wisdom seems to be that the death of don Agustin Ruffo Azcona last August brought to an end that generation's influence in matters pertaining to the Ruffo empire. The new generation is known to have its infighting and without a clan elder to moderate, conflict has been the result.

So, adding family conflict to hard economic times, competition from Soriana's, Ley, and Walmart, taking on that 263 million peso expense to remodel their businesses just before the world economy tanked, as well as the loss of all income from the old Perla de La Paz when that business burnt to the ground in Oct of 2006, here we are.

Contrary to many of the statements that have been made by the new owners, much is changing at Chedraui under the new management. Rumor has it (I don't know anyone personaly who has been affected) they are cashiering out the workers of the CCC and bringing in new personnel willing to work for less. Many here, and elsewhere, have mentioned the good service provided as one of CCC's chief assets. That isn't likely to remain the case if wages are driven down.

Jesse mentioned the conflict that exists between workers from the mainland and workers native to the region in his post under Home Depo. Sudcalifornianos have a rich historic reputation for "wanting high wages for little work" (don't we all?). Francisco Aramburo--a noted local author and former newspaperman with deep family roots--notes the same thing in his book on Sudcaliforniano culture.

That said, one could make the argument (as Sudcalifornianos often do) that it isn't that they are inherently lazy, it's just that they know what a day's labor is worth in such a far-off, isolated place as Baja has been throughout most of its history. (One could relate this to what people make at such places as Alaska in our own country.)

That approach worked for a long time, since its lack of major industries kept it off the beaten path of the mobile world work force. But once you have government-sponsored tourism resorts springing up, you generate the magnet that pulls people with greater hunger than what has traditionally been experienced in this place (BCS). [Which, incidentally, was part of the federal government's plan when the original five resorts were conceived in the late 1960s; the ideal was a beach location with a low population base where the excess labor force in the nation's interior could go to live and work.]

The Ruffos' have a long tradition of hiring local people, and that may have been another part of their problem. To compete with the business model practiced at Walmart, Ley and Soriana's, they would have had to drastically lower their salaries (I'm just repeating what I've heard, so don't be too hard on me if I'm way off base and it turns out that Walmart pays more than CCC did). Being in the Sudcaliforniano family, so to speak, perhaps they didn't have the stomach for it.

Now we will get to experience some of the work ethics and business savvy of the people from the mainland that I've heard so much about.

Just some observations and ramblings of a long-time observer of things Sudcaliforniano.

Steve G

[Edited on 6-13-2010 by Bajatripper]

vandenberg - 6-13-2010 at 02:49 PM

Great post Steve, Thanks !!
We come, from Loreto, about 5 to 6 times a year to La Paz and have found CCC our favorite store. When Ley's first opened, we did some business there, but that store rapidly deteriorated. Soriana's does a little better, but their prices seem high. Last few times there, we shopped at all 3 Aramburo stores and, contrary to 4 to 5 years ago, were quite satisfied. Good meat prices (Sonoran) especially. Plus, their main store has been cleaned up and is much more appealing. And the guys at the Meat counter at the "cow" store are a delight to be served by. Couldn't be more accommodating.

Bajahowodd - 6-13-2010 at 04:01 PM

Anyone note the irony of Baja having been the bastard step-child of Mexico for so many years, now becoming integrated with the mainland on so many levels? I'm sure I will get complaints about my use of terms, but the fact is that compared to the mainland, Baja was always an outpost. Think of the Frontera license plates, for instance. Maybe the fact that Baja was just a little bit different than the mainland was a feature that attracted many of you enthusiasts. I'm just guessing, but what with the immense growth of tourism, in particular, especially in BCS, money is to made there. Hence, mom and pop, of family owned businesses will continue to encounter immense pressure from the "big guys" on the mainland.

DENNIS - 6-13-2010 at 04:07 PM

Baja was and probably still is called "The Provinces" by mainlanders...especially those in DF.

Bajahowodd - 6-13-2010 at 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Baja was and probably still is called "The Provinces" by mainlanders...especially those in DF.

I won't disagree that your term is more politically correct than the one I used. However, as I noted, with the immense revenue stream coming from BCS tourism, in particular, and given such retail changes as Dorians/ Sears and CCC/ Chedraui, I'm not so certain that the second cousin status will last.

bajajazz - 6-13-2010 at 07:30 PM

Bajatripper's informative posts seem right on the money. We've been aware of the differences of opinion and business philosophy that exists between the generations of the "old money" Pacenos for some time. We anticipate, for example, that local attitudes governing such things as gambling and other tourist attractions are going to change, i.e., restraints will be loosened, probably also as a product of the necessity to amortize the enormous costs of the Magote, Costa Baja, Caimancito, Pedregal and La Concha developments.

As I understand it, the older generation of shotcallers regarded La Paz as a good place to raise children and also an ideal place for the elderly to quietly retire. The younger generation has a slightly different, shall we say more go-go attitude toward urban development.

As one of Bajatripper's resources mentioned, in recent years we have lost local institutions like Aero California, La Perla department store, the Los Arcos Hotel and now CCC. Taken together, this has caused us to wonder if these are events that occurred in isolation and have no relationship, or are these nearly-simultaneous losses part of a pattern and an indicator of things to come?

I guess the one thing we can count on is that change is on the way; the only question is if it will be good change or bad -- bad in the sense that it changes the tranquil and charming nature of La Paz?

JESSE - 6-13-2010 at 11:05 PM

Theres something in common betwen all of the now extinct businesses mentioned above: THEY WHERE ALL OLD, OUTDATED, AND STUCK IN BAJA SUR MODE FOR TOO LONG.

Bajatripper - 6-14-2010 at 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Theres something in common betwen all of the now extinct businesses mentioned above: THEY WHERE ALL OLD, OUTDATED, AND STUCK IN BAJA SUR MODE FOR TOO LONG.

Spoken like a true outsider, Jesse. Just as outsiders find the native Sudcalifornianos lazy, etc. etc. the locals think too many outsiders are rude, overly ambitious, self-centered, and only think about getting ahead at all costs, trambling over those ahead of them. These, too, are some of the thoughts of Francisco Aramburo (native Sudcaliforniano), among others.

Too bad it so often has to be about money and efficiency, which are the antithesis of the natural human state. If ealy woman and man had been so self-centered as we have become under western civilization, they would have quite likely eliminated themselves from the gene pool a long time ago. Humans depend on other humans to get ahead. Contrary to what many a millionaire thinks, they most definitely DID NOT get to where they are by themselves. The infrastructure, communications, education system, etc. etc. that makes millionaires possible are paid for by all of us.

Speaking as a cultural anthropologist, there is something to say about traditions and and rhythm of life of the BAJA SUR MODE of yesteryear, when people could leave their houses and cars unlocked without repercussions. During the suffocating summer months, many slept outside on their patios. Most all businesses (and schools) closed for a couple of hours during the early afternoon (which could really suck if you needed that thing RIGHT NOW!). If you had the misfortune to break down on the pre-paved road, everyone who came along did their best to get you on your way, or help in any way imaginable, etc. etc. But one thing that has remained constant in the nature of Sudcalifornianos throughout their recorded opinions is an intense dislike of outsiders (especially Chilangos) coming here and telling them how things should be done.

This is not to say that everything was perfect in the old days in La Paz. During my youth, we had but two AM radio stations and no TV and public and private phones were a rarity. For that matter, the first CCC had yet to open. There were many other inconveniences that we learned to live with. That said, I do miss the slower pace and tranquility and the lack of drugs etc. that was a way of life in the old BAJA SUR MODE. It was a pleasant place to be raised as a kid.

Just to clarify, it wasn't that all of those businesses failed because they were old and unable to compete. The Hotel Los Arcos, like the Grand Baja before it, was brought down not because it couldn't compete with the mainlander and transnational business mode, but rather, because the hired help had the political power to shut them down permanently for alledged unfair treatment through worker strikes.

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing something like that happen to BP right about now. But, of course, they would be able to shelter their assests, declare bankrupcy, and stick the U.S. tax payer and the rest of the world with the costs for the clean up. Is that some of the outside mentality you would like to see more of around these parts, Jesse? At least when everything was owned by locals, they lived in the environment that they helped create (or destroy).

Just some thoughts,
Steve G

vandenberg - 6-14-2010 at 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Theres something in common betwen all of the now extinct businesses mentioned above: THEY WHERE ALL OLD, OUTDATED, AND STUCK IN BAJA SUR MODE FOR TOO LONG.

Your opinion, not shared by me.
I loved the old La Paz, which is on its way becoming another Cabo.
Sometime keeping the status quo is much preferred by a lot of folks.

JESSE - 6-14-2010 at 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Theres something in common betwen all of the now extinct businesses mentioned above: THEY WHERE ALL OLD, OUTDATED, AND STUCK IN BAJA SUR MODE FOR TOO LONG.

Most sudcalifornianos where outsiders at one point in their life, the only diference betwen me and someone who got here 40 yrs ago, is that 40 yrs ago outsiders had to to accept the paceño way or leave (that explains the miniscule growth rate of this city over the last 300yrs).

Today, paceños can no longer keep out the modern world (for good or bad) from their city. And in fact, it was them who brought in the worst thing about the outside world, politicians let drug lords in to live in their city and share space with their kids.

I personally love the people, they are my people, i understand them because my mother was sudcaliforniana and my family lives here. But the foul relationship betwen local business and politicians here is about as bad as i have seen it anywhere in Mexico. The arrangement has been simple: business pays politics so they would keep outside competition out. Basically, having your own little monopoly. What do you do when you have a monopoly? your prices are high, your quality is bad, and you hire 2 or 3 people for the price of one because you don't have to deal with stupid labor laws, pay for ridiculous lawsuits, etc etc

This in turn has created a very bad attitude amongst sudcalifornianos, and attitude that is not realistic in todays business world, and an attitude that is hurting them more and more. They don't understand that their demands and expectations of work are totally out of touch with reality, and thus, find themselves being left out by companies because they see them as troublesome, lazy, etc etc.

By the way, los arcos, just like grand baja, where victims of their own greed. They operated for decades under this politics-business mafia like system that still exists here, and when they felt choked by the extorsion, or decided to speak out about it, they where swiftly attacked by the political system that they benefited from for decades.

Bajatripper - 6-14-2010 at 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Anyone note the irony of Baja having been the bastard step-child of Mexico for so many years, now becoming integrated with the mainland on so many levels? (...) that compared to the mainland, Baja was always an outpost. Think of the Frontera license plates, for instance. Maybe the fact that Baja was just a little bit different than the mainland was a feature that attracted many of you enthusiasts. I'm just guessing, but what with the immense growth of tourism, in particular, especially in BCS, money is to made there. Hence, mom and pop, of family owned businesses will continue to encounter immense pressure from the "big guys" on the mainland.

Your forgot "red-headed," didn't you? Indeed, your observations are valid ones. In fact, Fernando Jordan--a Mexico City newspaper man who came on assignment to southern Baja during the late fourties--wrote a book noting the same thing, titled "El Otro Mexico." He brought the perspective of a Mexican outsider and saw the many differences in culture between here and the mainland and felt the cultural uniqueness was something to be proud of. Just as many of us have, Jordan fell in love with Baja, writing four or five books about the peninsula before taking his own life (although some suspect foul play) here in the capital of BCS. There have been many other literary efforts in the years since El Otro Mexico was published that explore the same ideas. And, yes, many of us are attracted to Baja for that uniqueness.

The license plates say "Fronteriza" because all of the Baja Peninsula was given the same exemptions as those given to the border zones (both north and south) of Mexico. This designation--and the tax/import advantages that it included--were instituted in the 1930s as part of the Mexican government's attempt to populate its borders (in part, to avoid another land grab by a neighbor).

What the "zona fronteriza" means in practical terms is that residents of these zones pay 5% less in IVA (the national sales tax, currently at 16% in the interior and 11% in the zone) and have the priviledge to import cars and other foreign goods without paying the massive import duties that residents in the interior must pay. Hence, BCS has the highest rate of registered vehicles per capita of anywhere in Mexico (according to INEGI's data in 2005). Who knows what that would be if unregistered vehicles were also included. That is also why one has to go get a permit at Pichilingue to take one's vehicle across the Gulf to the mainland--you are leaving the zone.

Steve G

Bajahowodd - 6-14-2010 at 02:03 PM

Interesting stuff. By the way, while I don't have current figures, and as someone who remembers Cabo from over thirty years ago, it might surprise some that between 1998 and 2004, the number of hotels rooms in Los Cabos nearly doubled to a total around 10,000. Obviously, the number is higher today. Have to believe that most, if not all the money involved came from the mainland. that, and the workers that built and the workers that operate the properties. I can also recall the appalling living conditions encountered by many of the construction workers, in particular.

Bajatripper - 6-14-2010 at 02:07 PM

Quote:

Most sudcalifornianos where outsiders at one point in their life, the only diference betwen me and someone who got here 40 yrs ago, is that 40 yrs ago outsiders had to to accept the paceño way or leave (that explains the miniscule growth rate of this city over the last 300yrs).

Today, paceños can no longer keep out the modern world (for good or bad) from their city. And in fact, it was them who brought in the worst thing about the outside world, politicians let drug lords in to live in their city and share space with their kids.
I personally love the people, they are my people, i understand them because my mother was sudcaliforniana and my family lives here. But the foul relationship betwen local business and politicians here is about as bad as i have seen it anywhere in Mexico. The arrangement has been simple: business pays politics so they would keep outside competition out. Basically, having your own little monopoly. What do you do when you have a monopoly? your prices are high, your quality is bad, and you hire 2 or 3 people for the price of one because you don't have to deal with stupid labor laws, pay for ridiculous lawsuits, etc etc

This in turn has created a very bad attitude amongst sudcalifornianos, and attitude that is not realistic in todays business world, and an attitude that is hurting them more and more. They don't understand that their demands and expectations of work are totally out of touch with reality, and thus, find themselves being left out by companies because they see them as troublesome, lazy, etc etc.

By the way, los arcos, just like grand baja, where victims of their own greed. They operated for decades under this politics-business mafia like system that still exists here, and when they felt choked by the extorsion, or decided to speak out about it, they where swiftly attacked by the political system that they benefited from for decades.

No, Jesse, that isn't the only difference between you and someone who arrived 40--or 100 years ago. Someone who came here before the paved road had to be willing to live a harsher, less convenient lifestyle. Those who waited until things got comfy before coming are not generally made of the same stock as those who came here throughout most of Baja's history. Because of your youth, I exclude you from this part of the argument. But I do wonder if your mother agrees with everything you say about Pacenios.

Jesse, so which is it? Did all of those businesses fail because they were being exposed to the new and better ways of outsiders, or because they were part of an political and economic system that had been in place for too long? As you well know, Los Arcos is of the Coppola family, you can't get much more politically entrenched than that. The owner, Luis, is a state senator, isn't he? So I think that the fact that the "rabble" were able to bring him down actually speaks volumes against the very point you want to make. Can't say anything about the Grand Baja since I wasn't here for that closing. But, from what I hear, it followed a similar pattern as what is happening in Los Arcos. The same fate fell the old Hotel La Posada, of which I do have knowledge, should you be interested.

Basically, workers seem to have some rights here in Baja California Sur. The government wasn't owned by business leaders and the voice of the people had meaning.

Come on, Jesse, we both know that drug money infiltrates and corrupts every place it goes. Or didn't you ever ask how come we never see white male overlords of the drug industry in the U.S. According to what I see in the news, Hispanics and Blacks would appear to be the only ones involved in the illegal drug trade in the U.S. I think a more reasonable answer is that the whites are better-connected to the ruling political machine in the U.S. and are given a pass.

About monopolies: I'm thinking Pemex and the American model of oil exploitation. That Pemex has its share of corruption, there is no doubt. It's out in the open. But are you going to argue that the "non-monopoly" oil production we have in the U.S. is better? Where is gas cheaper? And what happens to price when you are desperately in need of gas in the middle of nowhere? I'll tell you what happens, good ol' American capitalism sticks it to you. Pemex, on the other hand, is pretty consistent with its prices no matter where you are buying it. And if the BP deal had gone down here, there would be no doubt who was responsible for the clean up. We, on the other hand, face years and years of litigation before that decision is made. And who pays for that litigation? The people, of course.

It seems to me that you are looking at all of these things only in terms of dollars and cents--no, make that pesos and centavos. That works for economists, who don't have to stand face-to-face with those who are affected by their decisions. But in the real world, these are your relatives and friends, not some number on a sheet of paper. Yet, you have adopted the American business model, which too often fails to take into account the social costs in its pursuit of the bottom line. It's the classic "Walmart vs. Mainstreet" business dichotomy, which Karl Marx--who worked in English factories in his day--wrote about. His observations remain as valid today as ever. Basically, businesses have certain expenses, of which only one is really negotiable--the salaries of the employees. Everything else has a bottom line that can't be negotiated. Yet, with human beings, the owners of production (that would be you, Jesse) see no bottom line, no fixed minimum salary that can't be violated. There is always someone from someplace else who is hungrier, who will work harder for less. That too often violates human dignity--of which poor people aren't allowed to have any. And if you bring up minimum wage laws, I will challenge you to try to survive on that for a year. Assuming you are married, you could even have her work. And then come back and tell me about minimum wages laws.

One thing your postings make abundantly clear, you DON'T understand the Sudcaliforniano mentality, your perspective is pure outsider. And I don't care if your mother is from here. My mother is from Ferndale, WA, and, although I have lived in Washington for many years, I don't pretend to know all there is to know about being Washingtonian, much less from Ferndale. It wasn't part of my formative years, so those lessons weren't part of my socialization. In my formative years, I was learning how to catch octopus off the Malecon, I was shining shoes in downtown La Paz, I went swimming and fishing all of the time at Petroleos (where you can't even get on the dock anymore), I gathered cirhuelas on the Mogote (where you can't go anymore) and I remember seeing what seemed like never-ending schools of sardines all along the Malecon this time of year.

None of these things are possible anymore. That is what Sudcalifornianos see; the things they are losing (and they haven't a clue that they are going to lose Playa Tecolote and Bahia Balandra in the not-to-distant future). If they were all reaping the benefits of a strong economy and well-paying jobs, I'm sure that such loses wouldn't matter as much. But when they are losing their heritage AND having to compete for jobs that pay less, well, then, it might be asking a bit too much for them to smile, too, while they are getting the shaft.

Steve G

[Edited on 6-14-2010 by Bajatripper]

[Edited on 6-14-2010 by Bajatripper]

[Edited on 6-14-2010 by Bajatripper]

KurtG - 6-14-2010 at 02:46 PM

Quote:

It seems to me that you are looking at all of these things only in terms of dollars and cents--no, make that pesos and centavos. That works for economists, who don't have to stand face-to-face with those who are affected by their decisions. But in the real world, these are your relatives and friends, not some number on a sheet of paper. Yet, you have adopted the American business model, which too often fails to take into account the social costs in its pursuit of the bottom line. It's the classic "Walmart vs. Mainstreet" business dicochomy, which Karl Marx--who worked in English factories in his day--wrote about. His observations remain as valid today as ever. Basically, businesses have certain expenses, of which only one is really negotiable--the salaries of the employees. Everything else has a bottom line that can't be negotiated. Yet, with human beings, the owners of production (that would be you, Jesse) see no bottom line, no fixed minimum salary that can't be violated. There is always someone from someplace else who is hungrier, who will work harder for less. That too often violates human dignity--of which poor people aren't allowed to have any. And if you bring up minimum wage laws, I will challenge you to try to survive on that for a year. Assuming you are married, you could even have her work. And then come back and tell me about minimum wages laws.

Steve,
I just finished re-reading "Open Veins of Latin America" which gives a very clear view of how cheaply human labor and life itself has been valued. Fascinating reading.

Thanks for your insight,
Kurt

JESSE - 6-14-2010 at 03:06 PM

Quote:

You shouldn’t exclude me so easily from anything unless you know me, my life has not been easy coming from a dirt poor daugher of a farmer near insurgentes. Oh and by the way, i lived many years down here back when i was younger, and not in comfortable La Paz, but in the Santo Domingo valle, back when there was nothing. So i am probably more familiar with the harsh environment of baja than most paceños.

And what i say about paceños, is something not only i believe and know, its something most sudcalifornianos from outside La Paz think. Ask anybody from Constitucion, Loreto, Mulege, etc and most will agree Paceños are lazy.

Quote:

So Jesse, so which is it? Did all of those businesses fail because they were being exposed to the new and better ways of outsiders, or because they were part of an political and economic system that had been in place for too long? As you well know, Los Arcos is of the Coppola family, you can't get much more politically entrenched than that. The owner, Luis, is a state senator, isn't he? So I think that the fact that the "rabble" were able to bring him down actually speaks volumes against the very point you want to make. Can't say anything about the Grand Baja since I wasn't here for that closing. But, from what I hear, it followed a similar pattern as what is happening in Los Arcos. The same fate fell the old Hotel La Posada, of which I do have knowledge, should you be interested.

Its both of course, local businesses have had a monopoly for decades, and thus neglected service, quality, etc etc now that its imposible to keep competition away, they find themselves not being able to compete, and resentful towards the politicians that took their money for decades in exchange of protection from competition. This resentment sometimes turns into catfights like the one we see with Los Arcos. The Los Arcos problem is very complex and the details i cannot explain on a message board.

Quote:

Basically, workers seem to have some rights here in Baja California Sur. The government wasn't owned by business leaders and the voice of the people had meaning.

Absurd and totally wrong. The state sport in Baja sur is frivolous lawsuits and goverment abuse. This is a well known FACT. Baja sur has the worst ratings in the nation regarding goverment transparency, fairness, etc etc

Quote:

Come on, Jesse, we both know that drug money infiltrates and corrupts every place it goes. Or didn't you ever ask how come we never see white male overlords of the drug industry in the U.S. According to what I see in the news, Hispanics and Blacks would appear to be the only ones involved in the illegal drug trade in the U.S. I think a more reasonable answer is that the whites are better-connected to the ruling political machine in the U.S. and are given a pass.

I don’t know where you live, but you obviously not aware that baja sur, has one of the worst narco-corruption problems in all of Mexico. Most of the top heads in the state goverment are under investigation by the PGR, the SIEDO, and military intelligence. I come from Tijuana and even there, the corruption and the highest levels wasnt so bad.

Quote:

When i first came here, my view of things where different. I felt locals where being pushed out by outside companies simply because its cheaper to hire a non paceño. I quickly found out it wasn’t true. I TRIED, i tried many times to do the right thing and hire locals, but in time i saw what everybody, included paceños told me. I had employees that i treated very well, turn around and sue me for nothing, many times i hadn’t even fire them, they would just not show up one day and then a week later send me a lawyer asking for money. They know that they don’t have a case, they know if this went to court they would lose, but they also know i can’t afford to go to court, and thus, its more cost effective for me to pay 10,000 pesos now, than to pay 20,000 to my lawyer. Its outright robbery. In la paz, theres people that actually do this for a living. They team up with crooked labor lawyers, and go to work in a business for a month, leave, and the sue. They do this over and over again.

Finally, i just want to ad, when we started here, i paid my workers much higher than what a normal paceño would earn working in a local business. My belief, was that maybe if i paid them enough, i would then be rewarded with commited responsible workers. So i was very surprised when i saw that money was not a factor, employees would work and behave exactly the same if i was paying them 700 pesos a week, or 1500.

Fairness has nothing to do with this issue.

Quote:

One thing your posting make abundantly clear, you DON'T understand the Sudcaliforniano mentality, your perspective is pure outsider. And I don't care if your mother is from here. My mother is from Ferndale, WA, and, although I have lived in Washington for many years, I don't pretend to know all there is to know about being Washingtonian, much less from Ferndale. It wasn't part of my formative years, so those lessons weren't part of my socialization. In my formative years, I was learning how to catch octopus off the Malecon, I was shining shoes in downtown La Paz, I went swimming and fishing all of the time at Petroleos (where you can't even get on the dock anymore), I gathered cirhuelas on the Mogote (where you can't go anymore) and I remember seeing what seemed like never-ending schools of sardines all along the Malecon this time of year

LOL! Thats a first, for a guy who can’t even spell paceños correctly, you sure presume a lot. Your whole post probes your the one that is clueless.

Quote:

None of these things are possible anymore. That is what Sudcalifornianos see; the things they are losing (and they haven't a clue that they are going to lose Playa Tecolote and Bahia Balandra in the not-to-distant future). If they were all reaping the benefits of a strong economy and well-paying jobs, I'm sure that such loses wouldn't matter as much. But when they are losing their heritage AND having to compete for jobs that pay less, well, then, it might be asking a bit too much for them to smile, too, while they are getting the shaft.

You can’t pay a good salary, if your workers are used to suing you for nothing in order to get a quick buck from you. You can’t pay a good salary, if your constantly being visited by all goverment agencies municipal and state, making up excuses to get some money from you. You can’t pay a good salary, if work ethics are so bad here, that you have to hire 3 mechanics in tree weeks, to fix something that one should have fixed in one afternoon at half the money. You can’t pay somebody a good salary, when local distributors sell something for 100 that will cost you 20 at Tijuana, and 50 in cabo.

Paceños are losing their heritage because of their own fault. Because they are used to the good life, and cannot see that times are changing. In 10 years, sudcalifornianos are not even going to have enough power to decide whos going to govern them, it already happened in los cabos. This personally pains me, i am sad to see my own people blind to these facts. But i also know that they won’t change until its too late, so theres nothing i can do.

Any american or mexican that has come here, knows how you go into a store, and even if theres 5 employees, nobody bothers to greet you and help you until you demand it.

THAT is NOT normal, and that in short, is the reason why paceños are falling behind on everything.

[Edited on 6-14-2010 by JESSE]

Bajatripper - 6-14-2010 at 04:50 PM

Jesse, my hat's off to you. You win the "who had it harder" contest by a wide birth. To tell the truth, I never intended to convey anything remotely associated with a rough childhood. Quite the contrary, the childhood I had in La Paz was fantastic! During our stay, two of the four houses we rented in La Paz were on the malecon (back when such places could be had for $40/month), so I had the Ensenada de los Aripes at my front doorstep for much of my childhood. I can't imagine what it was like to live out in your neck of the woods. Hell, Villa Constitucion was bad enough just passing through, and that was probably bright lights and the big city to you.

In actuality, you and I are on the same page 98 percent of the time. As a lurker, I have learned a lot from your many posts over the years. You have access to people who are way out of my league, bringing to the board a perspective that is uncommon. I've always admired how you stay neutral in discussions that must have hit inner nerves with you, and still manage to inform us.

And now I learn more about your impressive background, and I admire you all the more.

But I always knew that our views of capitalism in its local manifestation would inevitably lead us to this exchange of ideas, so I'm glad we are getting it out of the way. For, if I may be so presumptuous, I see a good friendship between us in the future. In fact, we have already met, but I'm sure you don't remember. You came over to my house on Madero to attend a function sponsored by my mother, Bajalera, a few years ago. What she always remembers about that event was that I was three hours late with the beer.

Peace,
Steve

PS AND I DO, TOO, know how to spell what a native of La Paz is, I've just been too lazy (must be some of that PaceNIo culture I got overdosed with) to learn how to master that little "~" squigly thing. I'm sure this will generate a million replies telling how to do it, but sure as Alzheimer's is my witness, I'll soon forget and go back to two keys (ni) that make more-or-less the same sound.
[Edited on 6-15-2010 by Bajatripper]

[Edited on 6-15-2010 by Bajatripper]

comitan - 6-14-2010 at 05:05 PM

Not only was he there he brought a Cevieche to die for and that is the understatement of the year.

JESSE - 6-14-2010 at 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper
Jesse, my hat's off to you. You win the "who had it harder" contest by a wide birth. To tell the truth, I never intended to convey anything remotely associated with a rough childhood. Quite the contrary, the childhood I had in La Paz was fantastic! During our stay, two of the four houses we rented in La Paz were on the malecon (back when such places could be had for $40/month), so I had the Ensenada de los Aripes at my front doorstep for much of my childhood. I can't imagine what it was like to live out in your neck of the woods. Hell, Villa Constitucion was bad enough just passing through, and that was probably bright lights and the big city to you.

In actuality, you and I are on the same page 98 percent of the time. As a lurker, I have learned a lot from your many posts over the years. You have access to people who are way out of my league, bringing to the board a perspective that is uncommon. I've always admired how you stay neutral in discussions that must have hit inner nerves with you, and still manage to inform us.

And now I learn more about your impressive background, and I admire you all the more.

But I always knew that our views of capitalism in its local manifestation would inevitably lead us to this exchange of ideas, so I'm glad we are getting it out of the way. For, if I may be so presumptuous, I see a good friendship between us in the future. In fact, we have already met, but I'm sure you don't remember. You came over to my house on Madero to attend a function sponsored by my mother, Bajalera, a few years ago. What she always remembers about that event was that I was three hours late with the beer.

Peace,
Steve

PS AND I DO, TOO, know how to spell what a native of La Paz is, I've just been too lazy (must be some of that PaceNIo culture I got overdosed with) to learn how to master that little "~" squigly thing. I'm sure this will generate a million replies telling how to do it, but sure as Alzheimer's is my witness, I'll soon forget and go back to two keys (ni) that make more-or-less the same sound.
[Edited on 6-15-2010 by Bajatripper]

[Edited on 6-15-2010 by Bajatripper]

Would love to have a beer with you anytime.

CCC san lucas

bajajudy - 6-20-2010 at 05:30 PM

"One of the things that the CCC has been known for is its variety of foreign goods, which simply can't be found anywhere else (who else carries English muffins?).
The new owners have said that they will continue to exploit this market. Lets hope so, or nobody will miss the old CCCs more than the local community of Americans and Canadians."

You guys panicked me so I rushed down to CCC yesterday.
They had 100's of packs of English muffins, Knudson buttermilk, Swiss Miss milk and, praise the lord and pass the biscuits,.....Jimmy Dean Sausage. From what I saw they had more American products than before.

Dont rush out for the Jimmy Dean...I bought it all

Paula - 6-20-2010 at 10:55 PM

My affection for Baja Nomads is restored with this thread!

Jesse and Steve, on first reading this is first rate dialogue on sensitive and nuanced issues in La Paz, and BCS in general. With my self-diagnosed adult onset attention deficit disorder (there is an acronym for this but damned if I can figure it out) in combination with my partzheimers disease (fortunately not yet entirezeimers), I will need to review it a time or two, with pleasure.

I had the good fortune to be at the party mentioned above with my husband, Don Alley. There I had my first conversation with Jesse. It was my great pleasure to meet Bajalera, Steve's mother, and Comitan and Carol at the event. Steve, because of your late arrival, Don and I barely met you. We look forward to getting to know you better-- here on Nomads, or how and wherever.

bajalera - 6-22-2010 at 12:39 PM

That was a fantastic childhood? He's gotta be kidding.

longlegsinlapaz - 6-22-2010 at 05:27 PM

Lera, he was obviously referring to the fantastic mother who raised him up to adulthood. Ya know, the woman that gringo tourists paid to take her pic! :lol:

fixtrauma - 6-22-2010 at 10:00 PM

I will go to the CCC anytime to not have to put up with the lines at Walmart. They seem to give a hoot at CCC.

And they have good selection!

edm1 - 6-23-2010 at 07:53 PM

Steve, how are you my friend?

You and Jesse, the eloquence. My hat's off to both of you.

Bajatripper - 7-9-2010 at 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by edm1
Steve, how are you my friend?

You and Jesse, the eloquence. My hat's off to both of you.

Hey, Art
I thought this thread had died, so I hadn't checked in a while or I would have noticed your post earlier. Did you make it out with DavidK's crew to Shell beach? When are you going to head down to the real Baja? The north is nice, but the south is better! Of course, I don't know of any roads that will field test your motor home's most recent mods better than the Santa Maria Mission adventure. When you do decide to come, you're more than welcome to stay at my place.

Steve

edm1 - 7-9-2010 at 06:33 PM

Steve, yes I did make it to Shell Island with David K, Baja Angel, Ken Cooke and his brand-new bride Leidys - this past July 4th weekend. Read the Trip Reports forum. Shell Island's deep sand is tougher than the boulders of the Mision Sta Maria :-)

Thanks for the very kind invite to La Paz. A couple of trips down south are definitely in the motorhome's future.

[Edited on 7-10-2010 by edm1]

Ñ

LaRibereña - 7-15-2010 at 05:33 PM

OK, I'll make this easy.

Put on your 'NUM LOCK" (upper right of keyboard - some light should come on)

Holding the "Alt" key down, press:

164 for ñ
165 for Ñ

Want more? Let me know. Elizabeth

Bajatripper - 7-15-2010 at 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LaRibereña
OK, I'll make this easy.

Put on your 'NUM LOCK" (upper right of keyboard - some light should come on)

Holding the "Alt" key down, press:

164 for ñ
165 for Ñ

Want more? Let me know. Elizabeth

ñÑ

Hey, it works! Now, if I can just remember this, I'll be set. Better write that down on a piece of paper.

And, if might ask, what took you so long to post this? You made me look foolish with my prediction of however many people would flood the thread with instructions on how to do it. Don't let that happen again, or I'll say something bad about you to Muñoz (just wanted to check to see if it works under battle conditions). :lol:

Floatflyer - 11-11-2010 at 06:55 AM

Yesterday was our first San Jose/San Lucas shopping visit since last April. I had read the thread on the selling of CCC with aprehension. CCC had been our favorite grocery store in BCS for years, no longer. The Cabo store has workers and construction all over the place. The parking lot is a nightmare and the interior is the same. What use to be great steaks, now have about 3/4" of fat around them. Refrigerated items were much reduced by selection. We won't go back till after the first of the year (hopefully the remodel will be done) and give them a final chance. I am not optimistic.

Our second favorite grocery store is Mega but we did not go there this trip. Instead we went to Wal Mart, Cabo, and had a great experience. No lines, plenty of shaded parking, and a great selection of everything.

Sorianna's has been in third place in our view but we shall see how things work out with Mega and WM over the winter. We never got behind City Club and rarely visit Sam's Club. We are still lucky to have options besides Aramburo.

Russ - 11-11-2010 at 07:34 AM

I pray for the day one of the big chains opens a store in Mulege Municipality. There really isn't any place to buy quality veggies or fruits here. Even if you happen on the delivery day things just don't look very nice or fresh. We do have a couple of places where you can buy Sanoran beef now but their cuts aren't as nice as the CCC in La Paz. I just got a report from La Paz that there is a butcher there with a big cow out front that is suppose to be excellent. Anyone know about this place? Some where near the mission.

bajalinda - 11-11-2010 at 10:41 AM

Russ - the butcher you heard about could be in the grocery store that has a large statue of a cow up on the roof (I think it's an old Aramburos). It's a couple of blocks off of the cathedral square and just down the street from Jesse's restaurant. Locals have told me that it is THE place to go to get carne asada for tacos. It's not in my usual shopping zone, so I don't go there very often and have only ever bought meat for tacos, so can't speak for the other cuts, but....the tacos were excellent - our local school teacher ate 5 of them when we had a bbq here a while ago.

Both Chedrauis in La Paz are also a construction mess - especially the Colima one, the Palacio store is not quite as bad right now. I was really not a fan of Chedraui when it first opened, but I have to say that they are making an effort to get some items back that disappeared off of the shelves when CCC went away. I have filled out a couple of those customer satisfaction forms at the check-out and, lo and behold, a couple of weeks later those items were on the shelves. I imagine other people probably asked for them too, so the group effort helped. Also Chedraui's prices are really pretty good.