BajaNomad - How many crimes have really happened to American tourists?

How many crimes have really happened to American tourists?

Brian L - 7-9-2010 at 08:01 AM

So, I'm still trying to talk my wife into camping in Baja. We used to go a lot in the 1990's, but it has been awhile since our last trip.

Every time I bring up the topic of taking our trailer to Baja for a few weeks, the first thing EVERYBODY says is "Are you sure it's safe?"

Besides the Narco-related crimes in the border towns, they all seem to remember a few tourist related stories.

One is what happened to the McMillans on their way home from a Baja race. Another is two people killed while camping on a beach, and another is a family robbed at knife or gunpoint.

I think those three are about it over the last decade, but am not sure.

What can I say to all those that seem to think going to Baja is the surest way to die?

Thanks!

David K - 7-9-2010 at 08:14 AM

It was friends of McMillins who were pulling a McMillin race trailer who elected not to spend the night in Ensenada at the hotel provided for them... Got carjacked near Rosarito, middle of the night... When the criminals realized they didn't get a rich McMillin family member, they released the family who walked to a nearby home to get help... lost their truck, etc. McMillins didn't race Baja again until this year.

Here is Andy McMillin's web site: http://www.andymcmillin.com/

As for safety, we had two (more) great Baja trips recently (with other Nomads) and had NO issues with crime... I never had since 1965.

Pacifico - 7-9-2010 at 08:16 AM

Don't tell them anything......Let them stay home in the U.S.! It keeps the crowds to a minimum!!! 99% of what everyone hears is media hype and it gets blown out of proportion. Stay away from the border towns and don't take any drugs, guns, ammo, etc. and you will be fine. Always be aware of your surroundings. Keep in mind, there are no guarantees in life....

There is no guarantee something bad won't happen to you in the U.S. either. I feel safer in baja than many places I go in the U.S.!

wilderone - 7-9-2010 at 08:54 AM

There were more crimes on the streets of San Diego last week than all of Baja between El Rosario and La Paz. Probably.
Just get through Ensenada ASAP, drive very defensively, be prepared for "incidents" (spare parts, shovels, tow chain, water, first aid kit) and you will have a fabulous time.

TMW - 7-9-2010 at 09:00 AM

Many people will always be afraid to go to Baja. News reports of someone being robbed or killed builds on than fear. You need to look into when such things happened and where. Usually it has been late night near the border. Simply cross the border during the day and get down to Ensenada or San Felipe or further south before dark. If being among other Americans will make you feel safer then go when there is a SCORE race and stay near the race course. Stay in the RV campgrounds, there are many on both sides of Baja. There is always the possibility that something will happen down there as well as where you live or anywhere else. Use your common sense. Be aware of where you're at and whats around you.

I find that some people are afraid to venture south due to the language barrier. They don't speak spanish and thus don't feel comfortable in the setting. They will use the robbing and killings as an excuse. I don't believe the Mexicans expect you to speak or understand fluent spanish. At least that's my experience. Well except maybe the Fererales. I find it fun and interesting to use what little I know to communicate with the gas attendant or in the shops and stores and resturants and just the people you meet along the way. You can learn a lot just talking to them with a little spanish and english.

oldjack - 7-9-2010 at 09:12 AM

Those who post on this board that suggest/declare that the reports of criminal activity are largely "hype" must have a different set of values than some of the rest of us... I always wanted to feet safe when I was younger and doing stupid things in Tijuana/Ensenada even back then Nogalez was fun and exciting... but I knew that I took a chance of getting pick-pocketed or short-changed/overcharged... now it is quite possible that you can be camping on a remote beach and be robbed... or worse... you can be in the wrong place at the wrong time and suffer unknown consequences..... yes the same can happen NOB(but there I am permitted to provide some of my own defense... and I do).... I am getting ready to retire in December and will be moving to MX permanently... everywhere I pick I evaluate the safety.... now even riding the public bus on the mainland is a crapshoot because of all the recent hold-ups that not much is done about... it is not that there is some crime... it is the level of personal threat that has changed significantly... I can even argue with the Pemex idiots.... but a desparate idiot with a gun is not something the Mexican gov't will allow me to protect myself from legally.... yea yea don't take anything with you(including money) that you wouldn't want to loose.... what bs... I want to be comfortable and feel safe and know that those who are protecting me are doing their job..... I have found at least four places in Baja and the Mainland that I am considering that afford me that piece of mind and distance from all the crap that others say are over-hyped.... my deepest sympathies to those families that sufferred from the unjust results that were over-hyped in the media....

Brian L - 7-9-2010 at 09:54 AM

Yes, I do feel bad for those that have had unfortunate incidents happen to them.

I just hate having to defend my decision to travel to Baja with the old "Crime is worse in the US than down there."

It really is though. In today's local paper is a couple of stories of folks getting robbed at gun or knife-point.

Woooosh - 7-9-2010 at 10:04 AM

I've lived in Rosarito Beach for about six years now. The crime we have experienced here is about the same any local Mexican family experiences. Most Americans would not feel comfortable accepting their share of "bad luck" like many Mexicans do. Crimes against ex-pats are generally not covered by the NOB media like a tourist incident would be- those stories are considered "local interest" and are quietly dismissed. Luckily there have been few incidents where tourists were involved or intentionally hurt. If you are looking for a list of what happens in six years... 2 truck thefts (one from the garage), 1 armed carjack attempt in Playas de Tijuana, 1 extortion attempt by a (former) neighbor, 1 kidnap attempt (although the PGJE says there was actually a second attempt that we were not even aware of). We are actually fairly comfortable now with that level of risk and violence- same as everyone else around here.

mtgoat666 - 7-9-2010 at 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
There were more crimes on the streets of San Diego last week than all of Baja between El Rosario and La Paz. Probably.

"probably?"

definitely, you are comparing apples and oranges.

try comparing crimes per capita.

according to fishy, in CdC, the govt commits crimes against tourists many times each day.

Danger Lurks wherever you Go.

MrBillM - 7-9-2010 at 10:26 AM

However, I wonder about a statement which says "I feel safer in Baja than MANY places where I go in the U.S."

Sounds like going a lot of places in the U.S. where I wouldn't.

But, it's TRUE that even out here in the high-desert we have our (small) share of violent crime. However, when reading the reports in local papers, it's RARE that there is an actual Bad vs Innocent incident. Usually, both parties were involved in some way and, usually, it involved drugs.

A BIG difference en El Norte (for me and many friends) is that we can travel armed with the means to defend against whatever we might encounter. Although the need hasn't occurred in a number of years, the option is there.

And, at home, an aggressor would face a withering response. At my home, anyway.

I'm reminded of a line in Joseph Wambaugh's "The Blooding" in which he described the difference in Brit v U.S. approach to taking a suspect into custody. As he described it, In England, they preferred to let the suspect get home so that he'd be surrounded and trapped. In the U.S., however, they preferred taking him BEFORE he arrived home since that home might contain enough armament to take over the Middle-East.

Be that as it may, although Baja IS the most dangerous place that I travel to, it is still one of the most enjoyable. It's simply a matter of realizing the risks and minimizing those risks. I haven't traveled Baja at night in years and, likely never will again.

DENNIS - 7-9-2010 at 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by blane
I just hate having to defend my decision to travel to Baja with the old "Crime is worse in the US than down there."

It really is though.

In that case, you should pack your bags and move down here where it's reatively safe. :biggrin:

Just follow the same suggestions you see here today and have for years; don't drive at night and don't camp in isolated places.

mtgoat666 - 7-9-2010 at 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
don't drive at night and don't camp in isolated places.

well, that advice does not make baja sound very safe.

also sounds like plot elements from horror movies: need to get off the road and indoors before sun goes down....

if you "camp" in crowded areas, can you really still call it "camping?"

DENNIS - 7-9-2010 at 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

well, that advice does not make baja sound very safe.

It isn't. These are just psychiatric tricks to avoid paranoia.

Woooosh - 7-9-2010 at 12:16 PM

http://www.frontera.info/EdicionEnLinea/Notas/Noticias/09072...

four ambushed and executed in Rosarito Beach Wednesday including a US Citizen... but none were a tourist so no news NOB. P-nche deportees.

Where the Bad Guys are

MrBillM - 7-9-2010 at 12:30 PM

Comparing the crime rate in ANY two countries is meaningless. The figures are only meaningful for wherever you're going to be. How many people are killed in San Bernardino doesn't mean crap if you're not going to be going through there.

In another case of my prescience being reinforced, it was about Twenty years ago that I suggested a "Def Con" Street Atlas ala the Thomas Guides wherein each area would be given a Def Con rating dependent on the crime rate enabling an out-of-towner to instantly make a judgement regarding the area he visits or travels through.

Although that hasn't come to pass (as far as I know), thanks to the Internet, the basic idea has been adopted in some areas to the outrage of the Chambers of Commerce and others.

SO, what we need is for an enterprising person to put together an accurate tally of Baja Crime stats (not an easy task given the corrupt bureaucracy) and start printing out categorized tourist guides which could be handed out at the Tourist information and Insurance kiosks.

I can see that happening. Sure.

Taco de Baja - 7-9-2010 at 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
http://www.frontera.info/EdicionEnLinea/Notas/Noticias/09072...

four ambushed and executed in Rosarito Beach Wednesday including a US Citizen... but none were a tourist so no news NOB. P-nche deportees.

Old News:
On the evening of Wednesday, 19 May 2008 the Central Rosarito Beach area there was a report of a quadruple murder on a country road in the area of Morro Canyon.....

...She was identified as Craig Ginna Libey, a U.S. citizen, while the body located a few yards away turned out to be that of Antonio Virgen Castañeda, alias El Kilo, who shortly thereafter in the course of the investigation was determined to be Libey's boyfriend.

Moral of the story: Don't hang out in Rosarito with someone whose nickname is "Kilo"

Pacifico - 7-9-2010 at 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
How many people are killed in San Bernardino doesn't mean crap if you're not going to be going through there.

Funny you mention San Bernardino, Mr.Bill! That's one of the places I'm talking about.....

Yes, I feel safer in baja than San Bird-doo!!! :lol:

Woooosh - 7-9-2010 at 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taco de Baja

Quote:

So Today's Frontera is a month off on their crime reporting... that adds confidence. :rolleyes:

Taco de Baja - 7-9-2010 at 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

So Today's Frontera is a month off on their crime reporting... that adds confidence. :rolleyes:

Make that 25 months +/- ..... May 2008 ......

Safer in Baja than San Berdoo ?

MrBillM - 7-9-2010 at 01:33 PM

Me Too ! It's a town of a completely different color.

But then, I haven't been to San Bernardino in about Five years.

Made it as far as Redlands a couple of years back.

The news up north

lookingandbuying - 7-9-2010 at 01:43 PM

All I hear from anyone up here is how bad things are in Baja! My brother tells me how he was shaken down for a few bucks by the local cops (OVER 30 YEARS AGO). I have even run one of those out of eye sight stop signs and paid a few bucks. Every few days in our local paper there are stories about the crime in Mexico. When they get to how they are cutting off people's heads or frying people in acid it gets to seem pretty brutal. But, generally, these types of things happen to narco guys and bum cops.

Over the years the Mexico I knew changed. You can see it with all the huge houses and the condo towers that are all over the place. We're not in Newport beach Toto!! The people that are in love with this new changed Mexico never really loved the place for what it was/is in the first place in my opinion. They should have never come down.

I really love going to Baja and am happy that others are afraid to come down. It is getting back to be more of the place I love and cherish again. Certainly, I will be careful to the extent possible to avoid a bad situation. I do think that even where I live NOB you have to avoid certain situations.

My feeling is go to Baja, enjoy yourself and don't listen to the nay sayers that have either never gone or were there more than 30 years ago. I just LOVE Mexico and will continue to go and have a great time enjoying the place.

DENNIS - 7-9-2010 at 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
So Today's Frontera is a month off on their crime reporting... that adds confidence. :rolleyes:

It doesn't look as though they're just getting around to printing the story. It looks more like it took them this long to figure it out.

Here a google translation:

On the evening of Wednesday, 19 May 2008 the Central Radio Rosarito Beach received a report of a quadruple murder occurred on a country road in the area of Morro Canyon.

Moved to the place of state police officers and staff of the Department of Expert Services of the Attorney General of the State (PGJE).

After an eventful trip up a winding and uneven dirt road made it to the point that indicated the report where they found the bodies of two men in the back seat of a Cadillac sedan, green, four-door with California plates 5RSY361.

These were identified as Francisco Javier Zavala García, alias El Pancho and Juan José Olivares Cervantes, also known as The Lumpy.

The car was crashed into a group of branches and trees arranged along the dirt road and had been shot in the front, hood and windshield, plus the two doors and rear windows.

Lying on the ground, the researchers traced the other two bodies, the first was that of a man who was about 40 meters from the vehicle, 20 meters, approximately, was that of a woman.

She was identified as Craig Ginna Libey, a U.S. citizen, while the body is located a few yards behind turned out to be that of Antonio Virgen Castañeda, alias El Kilo, who shortly thereafter in the course of the investigation would know who was the girlfriend foreign youth.

The four bodies apparently had several injuries caused by firearms and by presenting a state of decomposition, forensic experts found that her death had occurred at least four days earlier.

Because night had fallen agents temporarily suspend the investigation determined; again the next day well-armed and better organized then as it is a rural area did not know with what could be found, they were days when related violence organized crime had left a long trail of death, including several elements of the various police forces.

In the morning the agents returned to the scene for evidence of what happened in this place and clues that might indicate the direction it should take the investigation to find the murderers.

The next day, Thursday May 20, 2008, agents of expert researchers and returned accompanied by the Mexican Army and conducted a reinspection of the site.

Now with the light of day they were able to place caps
.380 casings near the points at which the day before the bodies were found lying between men and women who had allegedly attempted to escape.

After carefully reviewing the Cadillac vehicle which allegedly carrying at least three men and women killed, the ministry reported that police apparently were not armed, while the expert staff also determined that there were indications that some of them had triggered a firearm.

With this information the agents returned to the premises of the Attorney in Rosarito Beach where they realized that the information obtained so far was not sufficient to determine the possible course of events in which these four persons had been killed, making it who agreed to perform the next day a new reinspection, this time larger, the site where the bodies were found.

Formulate hypothesis

For the third consecutive day on Friday, investigators went to the May 21 scene where about 100 meters from the crime scene, on the bumpy dirt road six shell casings were found, four of them were .223 caliber, commonly weapons used in the AR-15, the other two were a .380 caliber weapon.

In the same way found in the bushes in a ski mask, presumably used by the attackers and two empty magazines .380.

The points at the agents were able to locate the percussive shots allowed them to get an idea of what happened the day the crime was committed, some were found on the local road and the other a few meters ahead but at the side of the path.

In determining the trajectory of the impacts received by the vehicle found about 100 meters behind in carrying the now deceased, the police logaron determine a first hypothesis.

The vehicle carrying the deceased had reached the point where according to evidence gathered so far could assume that at least two people were attacked: In front on the road was located the AR-15 carrier whose bullets hit the hood and windshield, side, another gunman had opened fire with 380 against the two men riding in the back.

The agents conclude that the attack, but surprisingly, had time to Kilo, Cadillac driver, backing up and trying to escape from the site of aggression making a stretch of road back to the point where the car was located.

On the traces of blood found on the wheel and other parts of the place occupied by the driver it was determined that he was wounded when the vehicle hit the bushes.

Apparently this was not a bar to the Kilo down the car, like the Liby who accompanied him in the place of co-pilot, and tried to escape the bullets penetrating through the bushes.

However, it was evident that they had managed to evade his attackers as the bodies of two were found near the vehicle.

They had long tail

That same night through the Police Liaison Office would be achieved by establishing with the U.S. authorities found the vehicle was registered by a citizen of that country named Daniel Evans Laporte.

It was known also by these means that the four people killed had criminal records related to drugs and robbery with violence in the United States where they had been deported after serving their sentences.

Days later, on June 2 that year, a man identified as John Harrison Eppick appeared before the PGJE to bring a report Laporte Evans location and the loss of a Cadillac vehicle he was driving at the time of his disappearance.

With this information the researchers begin to weave an intricate story that relates seemingly unrelated facts, but ultimately ended up making a huge scope puzzle that none of them imagined

Bajahowodd - 7-9-2010 at 03:34 PM

The original post of this thread involved tourism. Namely, a camping trip to Baja. As the thread developed, it became clear that some ex-pats take a differing view from the typical US tourist. Fact is that US residents visiting Mexico total over 22 million per year. By virtue of their numbers, it is their experience that drive US media in reporting stories about crime SOB. And, there has been a long standing belief, or attitude by so many US tourist that their behavior won't be held to the same standards as when they are NOB; just inviting themselves to be crime victims. So, while crime rates may be higher involving ex-pats, the reporting of such crimes in Mexico is less than current and accurate. Leaving such crimes aside for the moment, given that there are so many individual trips to Mexico by US tourists annually, IMHO, while a modicum of common sense is advised, people are missing a wonderful opportunity to encounter the pleasures of this wonderful country, if they are dissuaded by the US press reports.

chnlisle - 7-9-2010 at 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Moral of the story: Don't hang out in Rosarito with someone whose nickname is "Kilo"

Moral of this story: Don't have dinner in the wrong place at the wrong time. Perhaps the geniuses here who keep telling us all we need to do is be wary of our surroundings would explain to us in some detail how poor Bobby Salcedo should have been more cautious while having dinner with his family is a family restaurant. What were the warning signs that he missed?

Quote:

El Monte school board member killed in Mexico was in 'wrong place at the wrong time,' ex-police chief says

El Monte residents paid tribute today to a 33-year-old school board member who was abducted and killed in Mexico, with one city leader saying he believes Agustin Roberto “Bobby” Salcedo was an innocent victim of the country's drug war.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/01/school-board-m...

Hey, El Monte is right next to East L.A. If Bobby had dinner at Tamayo's instead, he would still be alive.

BajaBlanca - 7-9-2010 at 04:07 PM

I must say .... I feel we are very lucky ...we feel so safe here - keys left ignition, only lock doors at night ..... but ..... you only want to camp on the beach, which is remote, if there is at least another camper there. We did have a horrid incident with 2 men who were camping on the beach, and scuttlebutt has it that drugs were involved. The other couple who were down the way, never heard a thing ... There are other places to camp which are visited by the guards or "vigilantes" all night long which might be safe and really, are even more beautiful places.

So, in the 4 years we have been here - one violent crime - that has to be a pretty good statistic, no ????

fishabductor - 7-9-2010 at 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
I must say .... I feel we are very lucky ...we feel so safe here - keys left ignition, only lock doors at night ..... but ..... you only want to camp on the beach, which is remote, if there is at least another camper there. We did have a horrid incident with 2 men who were camping on the beach, and scuttlebutt has it that drugs were involved. The other couple who were down the way, never heard a thing ... There are other places to camp which are visited by the guards or "vigilantes" all night long which might be safe and really, are even more beautiful places.

So, in the 4 years we have been here - one violent crime - that has to be a pretty good statistic, no ????

Please elaborate on the violent crime? what happened?

edm1 - 7-9-2010 at 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Me Too ! It's a town of a completely different color.

But then, I haven't been to San Bernardino in about Five years.

Made it as far as Redlands a couple of years back.

Bashing Baja I think is like bashing San Berdo. I lived in San Berdo for more than 30 years, without any incident on my person, family or property, and I lived in a secluded place within the city limits.

DENNIS - 7-9-2010 at 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

I have a problem with the link. Thanks anyway.

OK....I was just roamin' around elsewhere and I found it. Thanks.

Woooosh - 7-9-2010 at 07:58 PM

yeah, what bajahowodd said.

Crime involving US Tourists on Vacation

The Gull - 7-10-2010 at 06:14 AM

I'll tell you of crime involving US tourists. In any major Baja town, go to the pool area of a major hotel on the weekend and see the obese and tatooed low lifes from the US who visit Baja forcing themselves in all nature of beachwear that could be worn by someone 1/2 their size. Now we are talking crime.