BajaNomad - new article from New York Times

new article from New York Times

durrelllrobert - 8-1-2010 at 08:30 AM

July 31, 2010
The Mexican Border's Lost World
By MARC LACEY

TIJUANA, Mexico — Never a particularly pretty place, the border is at its ugliest right now, with violence, tensions and temperatures all on high.

Once thought of by Americans as just a naughty playland, the divide between the United States and Mexico is now most associated with the awful things that happen here. In towns from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico, drug gangs brutalize each other, tourists risk getting caught in the cross-fire, and Mexican laborers crossing the desert northward brave both the bullets and the heat. Last week, a federal judge in Arizona blocked portions of new far-reaching immigration restrictions that she said went way too far in ousting Mexicans. Meanwhile, National Guard troops are preparing to fill in as border sentries.

All these developments are unfolding in what used to be a meeting place between two countries, a zone of escape where cultures merged, albeit often amid copious amounts of tequila. The potential casualties at the border now include a way of life, generations old, well-documented but decaying by the day.

The flow of people at the border has never been one way. The 1,969-mile stretch has long been a netherworld crossed by Americans in search of forbidden pleasures as much as by Mexicans desperate for work.

It is an area neither completely Mexico nor completely El Norte. And a dollop of danger, a quest for sin, was always part of its charm.

The modern story begins with Prohibition, when Mexico became the place for thirsty Americans to go for a cheap, legal drink. Over the years, the lure of cheap booze gave way to quickie divorces, dog races, strip shows, slot machines and brothels where fathers sometimes brought their sons when they hit 16. Through it all, there were plenty of drugs — medicinal (cut rates with no prescriptions) as well as illegal (marijuana, cocaine, heroin).

"The spice of danger adds a zest to the pleasure of thousands who visit them from this side of the frontier," The Times wrote of the towns of Tijuana and Agua Caliente, in a feature article describing the raging drinking and gambling scene there. The year was 1930.

Name it and one could find it in the back alleys of Tijuana or Juárez back then, The Times wrote of Ciudad Juárez in 1925: "Juarez gambles spasmodically; peddles dope; obsequiously caters to the pennies which the terpsichorean neckers recklessly fling to the kitty; sells rotten whisky and green beer at exorbitant prices and maintains a street gloriously called Calle Diablo (street of the devil), where thoughtless men can go and, at a base price, acquire bitter regrets."

World War II only boosted the market for a generation of soldiers on leave, and for postwar adventurers seeking music and thrills and sex. Jack Kerouac, in "On the Road," described their welcome this way:

"Then we turned our faces to Mexico with bashfulness and wonder as those dozens of Mexican cats watched us from under their secret hatbrims in the night. Beyond were music and all-night restaurants with smoke pouring out of the door. `Whee,' whispered Dean very softly.

" `Thassall!' A Mexican official grinned. `You boys all set. Go ahead. Welcome Mehico. Have good time. Watch you money. Watch you driving. I say this to you personal, I'm Red, everybody call me Red. Ask for Red. Eat good. Don't worry. Everything fine. Is not hard enjoin yourself in Mehico.'

" `Yes!' shuddered Dean and off we went across the street into Mexico on soft feet."

In the 1960s, Mexico firmly solidified its place as America's marijuana and heroin provider. As commerce — licit and illicit — grew, politicians and police protected it. But the rules of engagement that once protected innocents eventually began to break down. Nowadays, anything goes.

In 1958, Orson Welles used the border as backdrop for his classic noir film "Touch of Evil." ("This isn't the real Mexico," says the character Mike Vargas. "You know that. All border towns bring out the worst in a country. I can just imagine your mother's face if she could see our honeymoon hotel.") And in the 1990s, Cormac McCarthy set his trilogy of "Border" novels there as well, infusing his writing with adventurous tales and tragic love affairs, some involving prostitutes.

But little that any of the writers or filmmakers came up with rivals today's real-life spate of killings by men with no compunction about pulling the triggers on their automatic rifles as their drug gangs defy the authorities and fight for pre-eminence.

The naughtiness that used to give the border its flair seems innocent now. The prostitutes, hustlers and con men who once had free rein are, like everyone else, scared out of their wits. The easy smiles of Kerouac's Mexican border guards, welcoming free-spending tourists, are giving way to fences and armed American soldiers.

And as this happens, longtime lovers of the border fear most for the back-and-forth itself — for the interchange, even if asymmetrical and exploitive, of poorer Mexicans and free-spending Americans that over the generations has, to some degree, fostered understanding between the two countries.

"The relationship that once existed between the two sides is broken," lamented Luis Ituarte, who splits his time between Los Angeles, where he promotes the arts, and Tijuana, where he runs a cultural center. "There used to be so much mixing. Young people in San Diego would go for the night to Mexico. As a young boy in Tijuana, a night out in San Diego was something I did all the time. You got to know people on the other side."

As the violence rises — on July 15, officials reported the first car bombing of Mexico's drug war, in Juárez — tourism has flagged all along the border. Even the State Department forbids its own officials to drive through the border crossings. The latest State Department travel warning speaks of "large firefights" in broad daylight, of grenades being hurled and of highways blocked by outlaws.

Juárez and Tijuana, it notes, have been particularly deadly places for Americans. Other Mexican border towns are depressing shadows of their former selves, with boarded-up storefronts and "Se Vende" signs as common as prostitutes and offers of cheap Viagra.

Cecilia Balli, an anthropologist at the University of Texas at Austin who grew up on the border, recalls how Charro Days, a holiday celebrating the common traditions in Brownsville, Texas, and the Mexican town of Matamoros, used to be a truly cross-border affair, with parades marching across the line.

The last one she attended, earlier this year, was guarded by heavily armed police officers on the American side, and most of the revelers gave up on the idea of crossing back and forth, because of the lengthy lines at the immigration office and fears of violence.

At the other end of the border, Friendship Park once connected San Diego and Tijuana and allowed residents on both sides to picnic together. It now is bisected by barriers that keep Mexicans and Americans well away from any contact.

Not all is dire. The big-name international brands that operate maquiladora factories continue to operate, taking advantage of free trade and cut-rate labor. And one can still find some art museums, fancy business districts and upscale housing developments along the border — where leaders have made special efforts to show that lawlessness is not always the rule. Tijuana, in fact, is planning a high-tech conference in October, with high-profile participants like Al Gore and Carlos Slim (and their bodyguards).

There is also some talk of addressing the sociological problems of border communities by doing things like building more soccer fields for wayward youth. Border experts cite the need for a "21st-century border," one that uses technology to allow legal trade to flow while slowing the illegal transfers going both ways.

But as I cross back and forth at some of the border's most troubled points, I find that even a journalist faces scrutiny going both ways. American authorities grilling those entering the United States wonder just what an American could possibly be doing south of the border in this climate. And entering Mexico elicits surprise as well from the American inspectors who now regularly stop southbound cars, looking for gun traffickers and money launderers.

"You sure you want to go down there?" one of them said to me recently.

SWMSMB - 8-1-2010 at 10:12 AM

Unbelievable how how ridiculous, irresponsible and lazily reported this article is. To equate the Texas side of the border with Baja is absurd.

I have traveled to Mexico (mostly Baja but driven the mainland, too) for 41+ years and I can say it has never been nicer. Crime happens everywhere. The most dangerous parts of my trips are usually on the US side of the border. Sure, there are more checkpoints down there, but they are professional and courteous, and seem to help. I don't mind them even though I would never tolerate them in the US (but I'm sure we're going that way (another post, another topic).

People are suffering in Baja for no reason so hacks like this (and their bodyguards, anyone notice that gem?) can sell newspapers. This is yellow journalism at it's best. Al Gore and Carlos Slim roll with bodyguards anywhere.

If they can be so irresponsible and inaccurate about this, what about everything else? Shame on the New York Times (and I'm not a Fox News fan).

mtgoat666 - 8-1-2010 at 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SWMSMB
I have traveled to Mexico (mostly Baja but driven the mainland, too) for 41+ years and I can say it has never been nicer.

you are delusional. this is the nicest it's been in 41 tears? tijuana is a narco war zone!

SWMSMB - 8-1-2010 at 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

you are delusional. this is the nicest it's been in 41 tears? tijuana is a narco war zone!

Yes, how very correct you are. You know what they say, "you know you're getting close to TJ when you smell the gunpowder". I travel to TJ weekly and have only had to dodge bullets twice.

Surprised (and flattered) that you would take time away from your Harvard Debate Team reunion this weekend to chime in here and diagnose me.

mtgoat666 - 8-1-2010 at 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SWMSMB
I travel to TJ weekly and have only had to dodge bullets twice.

Well, you should have said that. Being caught in crossfire twice is obviously not very often :lol:

Sounds real safe :bounce:

[Edited on 8-1-2010 by mtgoat666]

Woooosh - 8-1-2010 at 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SWMSMB
Unbelievable how how ridiculous, irresponsible and lazily reported this article is. To equate the Texas side of the border with Baja is absurd.

Very simplistic, but the historical context of TJ/San Diego seems fair. I def agree Juarez and TJ are two very different animals- but he seems to be quoting the State Department:

"The latest State Department travel warning speaks of "large firefights" in broad daylight, of grenades being hurled and of highways blocked by outlaws. Juárez and Tijuana, it notes, have been particularly deadly places for Americans. "

DENNIS - 8-1-2010 at 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SWMSMB

Surprised (and flattered) that you would take time away from your Harvard Debate Team reunion this weekend to chime in here and diagnose me.

The Goat is just something we all have to endure, like Quasimodo with his hump. :biggrin:

SWMSMB - 8-1-2010 at 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by SWMSMB

Surprised (and flattered) that you would take time away from your Harvard Debate Team reunion this weekend to chime in here and diagnose me.

The Goat is just something we all have to endure, like Quasimodo with his hump. :biggrin:

I love birria...

mtgoat666 - 8-1-2010 at 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
The Goat is just something we all have to endure, like Quasimodo with his hump.

denny:
i guess you never read the book, because you attempted to insult me with a slur that is indeed a compliment. quasimodo was a good guy, the guy with humanity. the townspeople like you were shallow, often inhumane. go read the book, dummy.

Facts and numbers please

bajaguy - 8-1-2010 at 02:24 PM

...."Juárez and Tijuana, it notes, have been particularly deadly places for Americans."................

How deadly?????? Just how many Americans (tourists or ex-pats), not involved in the drug trade,not involved with gangs or without criminal backgrounds have been killed in Tijuana in the last 5 years?????????

SWMSMB - 8-1-2010 at 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
The Goat is just something we all have to endure, like Quasimodo with his hump.

He was clearly comparing you to Quasimodo's hump. Sorry, a comparison to a growth is not a compliment. You don't get simile or sarcasm?

But, if you insist on having it your way, Quasimodo = almost (quasi) human, normal (modo).

Denny, thanks, birria is served... :fire:

Back to the point: TJ, and more generally Baja, is not in the throes of a 'narco war'. Yes, by western standards, it is nicer than ever what with all of the new stores, etc.

MtGoat, like the reporter, stop talking about a subject with which you obviously have no familiarity. This is sensationalism and yellow journalism, plain and simple. We are talking about real people in Mexico whose lives have been changed through no fault of their own. First swine flu 'epidemic' and now articles like this, from sources as supposedly credible as the NYT. It is disgusting, ugly Americanism.

[Edited on 8-1-2010 by SWMSMB]

mtgoat666 - 8-1-2010 at 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SWMSMB
Quasimodo = almost (quasi) human, normal (modo).

your understanding of latin is about as reliable as your knowledge of TJ narco problems

Quote:

Originally posted by SWMSMB
TJ, and more generally Baja, is not in the throes of a 'narco war'.

ya, right. and you still believe in santa claus.

SWMSMB - 8-1-2010 at 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by SWMSMB
Quasimodo = almost (quasi) human, normal (modo).

your understanding of latin is about as reliable as your knowledge of TJ narco problems

Quote:

Originally posted by SWMSMB
TJ, and more generally Baja, is not in the throes of a 'narco war'.

ya, right. and you still believe in santa claus.

Nice display of your inability to grasp abstraction. Yes, my knowledge of latin is spot on, the meaning of the name is not literal but a loose translation. People in your category need literal definitions, s-l-o-w explanations.

That this country (the U.S.) is filled with ignorami like you does not portend great things. Actually, it bolsters my point on the article. The next time you call someone delusional, then offer nothing to support your stance except contradictions, I hope you get ripped up again. It's been nice to get to know you, now let me find the ignore/spam setting and figure out how to change my name to El Birriero.

JESSE - 8-1-2010 at 04:29 PM

Another article by someone who did not do his homework. Unfortunately theres plenty of these around.

Cypress - 8-1-2010 at 04:42 PM

SWMSMB, Intellectual firepower!! :biggrin:

Welcome to Baja Nomads.

mtgoat666 - 8-1-2010 at 04:46 PM

a few RECENT examples for the newbie and Jessy, seasoned nomad:::

------------------------------------------------

LA Times, July 23, 2010
Federal authorities announced a wide-ranging criminal complaint Friday against top leaders of a Tijuana-based drug cartel that ran much of its operations from the San Diego area, allegedly ordering murders, kidnappings and the torture of rival traffickers in Mexico.

The racketeering conspiracy case charges 43 people, among them high-ranking lieutenants, Mexican police officers and a top official in the Baja California attorney general's office who allegedly passed along information obtained from U.S. law enforcement sources to cartel operatives.

The organized crime group, an offshoot of the Arellano Felix drug cartel, moved some operations to San Diego in recent years, seeking a safe haven from gang wars and law enforcement crackdowns south of the border, said Laura Duffy, the U.S. attorney in San Diego.

Through the use of undercover agents and surveillance, authorities prevented most of the violence in San Diego County, including six attempted murders and an attempted kidnapping, Duffy said. In Mexico, cartel members kidnapped and killed several people, and tried to shift responsibility to rival gangs through corrupt Mexican law enforcement.

-------------------------------------

Mexico arrests dozens of current, former cops
56 state, municipal officers charged with collaborating with organized crime
UNION-TRIBUNE
July 29, 2010

TIJUANA — Baja California’s largest law-enforcement shake-up in recent years was carried out Thursday, when Mexican soldiers detained 62 current and former state and municipal police officers suspected of collaborating with drug traffickers.

The arrests, ordered by a federal judge, came on the heels of investigations that lasted two years, said the state’s attorney general, Rommel Moreno Manjarrez. The detained officers will face charges of drug trafficking and organized crime; Moreno didn’t detail their activities or name any drug-smuggling group.

He announced the arrests at a military air base in Tijuana where many of the suspects had been taken after being summoned to a training course at the Baja California police academy in nearby Tecate.

The suspects were 52 active-duty officers — 36 Tijuana municipal police and 16 state ministerial agents — as well as 10 former municipal officers. Some in the group wore their uniforms, but most were in plainclothes.

[Edited on 8-1-2010 by mtgoat666]

DENNIS - 8-1-2010 at 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
i guess you never read the book, because you attempted to insult me with a slur that is indeed a compliment. quasimodo was a good guy, the guy with humanity. the townspeople like you were shallow, often inhumane. go read the book, dummy.

Of course he was the good guy, Goat, but his hump was what seperated him from society, not his inability to love like others.
He was just like you and I, but less than pretty [well...me anyway. You're an ugly can eater] ...and that's what Hugo had in mind when he penned the classic.
Love transends beauty........unless you're in a hoarhouse.

bajaguy - 8-1-2010 at 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy
...."Juárez and Tijuana, it notes, have been particularly deadly places for Americans."................

How deadly?????? Just how many Americans (tourists or ex-pats), not involved in the drug trade,not involved with gangs or without criminal backgrounds have been killed in Tijuana in the last 5 years?????????

LA Times, July 23, 2010
Federal authorities announced a wide-ranging criminal complaint Friday against top leaders of a Tijuana-based drug cartel that ran much of its operations from the San Diego area,.......... allegedly ordering murders, kidnappings and the torture of rival traffickers in Mexico............

Nothing about American (or Canadian) tourists or ex-pats....... still waiting for those stats.........

mtgoat666 - 8-1-2010 at 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy
still waiting for those stats.........

According to the US State Dept July 16 travel warning for Mexico: "More than half of all Americans killed in Mexico in FY 2009 whose deaths were reported to the U.S. Embassy were killed in the border cities of Ciudad Juarez and Tijuana."

bajaguy - 8-1-2010 at 05:20 PM

Doesn't cut it.........do some research and you will find that those poor people were US citizens of Mexican decent that were involved in the trade

JESSE - 8-1-2010 at 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
a few RECENT examples for the newbie and Jessy, seasoned nomad:::

------------------------------------------------

LA Times, July 23, 2010
Federal authorities announced a wide-ranging criminal complaint Friday against top leaders of a Tijuana-based drug cartel that ran much of its operations from the San Diego area, allegedly ordering murders, kidnappings and the torture of rival traffickers in Mexico.

The racketeering conspiracy case charges 43 people, among them high-ranking lieutenants, Mexican police officers and a top official in the Baja California attorney general's office who allegedly passed along information obtained from U.S. law enforcement sources to cartel operatives.

The organized crime group, an offshoot of the Arellano Felix drug cartel, moved some operations to San Diego in recent years, seeking a safe haven from gang wars and law enforcement crackdowns south of the border, said Laura Duffy, the U.S. attorney in San Diego.

Through the use of undercover agents and surveillance, authorities prevented most of the violence in San Diego County, including six attempted murders and an attempted kidnapping, Duffy said. In Mexico, cartel members kidnapped and killed several people, and tried to shift responsibility to rival gangs through corrupt Mexican law enforcement.

-------------------------------------

Mexico arrests dozens of current, former cops
56 state, municipal officers charged with collaborating with organized crime
UNION-TRIBUNE
July 29, 2010

TIJUANA — Baja California’s largest law-enforcement shake-up in recent years was carried out Thursday, when Mexican soldiers detained 62 current and former state and municipal police officers suspected of collaborating with drug traffickers.

The arrests, ordered by a federal judge, came on the heels of investigations that lasted two years, said the state’s attorney general, Rommel Moreno Manjarrez. The detained officers will face charges of drug trafficking and organized crime; Moreno didn’t detail their activities or name any drug-smuggling group.

He announced the arrests at a military air base in Tijuana where many of the suspects had been taken after being summoned to a training course at the Baja California police academy in nearby Tecate.

The suspects were 52 active-duty officers — 36 Tijuana municipal police and 16 state ministerial agents — as well as 10 former municipal officers. Some in the group wore their uniforms, but most were in plainclothes.

[Edited on 8-1-2010 by mtgoat666]

And? this has happened many times in the past decade, its not an indicator for anything.

Sliding This In

Gypsy Jan - 8-1-2010 at 06:11 PM

The Mexican "Black Ops" (my words, not theirs) took out fifteen targets during MexiCali Days in Rosarito.

I am told that the Baja Times mentioned five.

[Edited on 8-2-2010 by Gypsy Jan]

SWMSMB - 8-1-2010 at 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
a few RECENT examples for the newbie and Jessy, seasoned nomad:::

[Edited on 8-1-2010 by mtgoat666]

Who are you calling 'newbie'? Somebody (amongst the others on this thread) that just thoroughly dispatched of you? Doesn't make you look better, does it?

This newbie just logged 4000+ miles twice down Baja over the past two months.

As for your articles, they are again vague generalities and one of them is actually about the 'narco war' spilling over to the US. By your logic, then, we should be cowering over here? More rhetoric, no substance.

Goat is unwittingly touching on perhaps a more profound issue: Where did we go in this country where some pseudo facts could pass muster? It's all so circular. You have nothing, thus you have no credibility. What are you without credibility?

mtgoat666 - 8-1-2010 at 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SWMSMB

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
a few RECENT examples for the newbie and Jessy, seasoned nomad:::

[Edited on 8-1-2010 by mtgoat666]

"swmsmb?" i understand the single white male bisexual parts or acronym, but what is need for send "s" and second "m?"
for a newbie you are quite thin skinned, but stick around and your hide will toughen up!

DENNIS - 8-1-2010 at 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
but stick around and your hide will toughen up!

OH, yeah. Have to agree wicha, Goat. It's not as simple as it seems from the early glance.

DENNIS - 8-1-2010 at 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SWMSMB
Goat is unwittingly touching on perhaps a more profound issue: Where did we go in this country where some pseudo facts could pass muster? It's all so circular. You have nothing, thus you have no credibility. What are you without credibility?

Too vague, convoluted and WTF are you talking about? You need clear points with which to mount an attack.
Try again.

DENNIS - 8-1-2010 at 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SWMSMB
Who are you calling 'newbie'? Somebody (amongst the others on this thread) that just thoroughly dispatched of you? Doesn't make you look better, does it?

This newbie just logged 4000+ miles twice down Baja over the past two months.

Maybe you should take a little time to unpack and do your laundry before you come on here throwing your uppity crap at long-time Nomads, Noob.
Shut the EF up and respect your elders here if you hope to have a future with us. We don't care when or where you've been if you can't tell us nicely.

[Edited on 8-2-2010 by DENNIS]

Barry A. - 8-1-2010 at 07:51 PM

I'll second that, Dennis.

Barry

SWMSMB - 8-1-2010 at 09:15 PM

Folks,

At the risk of cluttering the thread more than I already have, I would like to apologize. I am a longtime lurker and am passionate about the subject but I am still a newbie and overstepped myself and I lost sight of that. I realize that and love what everyone before has built here and I have benefited from. Sorry to be uppity, I was dead wrong and I had no right to be disrespectful to anyone. My hat is in hand.

Respectfully and all the best-

Barry A. - 8-2-2010 at 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SWMSMB
Folks,

At the risk of cluttering the thread more than I already have, I would like to apologize. I am a longtime lurker and am passionate about the subject but I am still a newbie and overstepped myself and I lost sight of that. I realize that and love what everyone before has built here and I have benefited from. Sorry to be uppity, I was dead wrong and I had no right to be disrespectful to anyone. My hat is in hand.

Respectfully and all the best-

Well, for me, that is a great second 'start'. You can put your head back on your shoulders now, and when ready to tell us about your southern adventures I am sure there will be many on this board that will listen and ask questions. Most of us are looking for info & comradre, not fights. :bounce:

Barry

Cochi - 8-2-2010 at 09:40 AM

How's the fishing?

Woooosh - 8-2-2010 at 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

And? this has happened many times in the past decade, its not an indicator for anything.

All these guys were caught because "The Crutches" is singing like a bird since his capture. I don't like the source, but I don't doubt the information. The families of the accused can protest and cry- but it's going to take a while to clear their name once it has been in the crutches phone directory...

http://www.afntijuana.info/afn/?p=9455

mtgoat666 - 8-2-2010 at 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
a few RECENT examples for the newbie and Jessy, seasoned nomad:::

------------------------------------------------

LA Times, July 23, 2010

-------------------------------------

Mexico arrests dozens of current, former cops
56 state, municipal officers charged with collaborating with organized crime
UNION-TRIBUNE
July 29, 2010

And? this has happened many times in the past decade, its not an indicator for anything.

"has happened many times in past decade"

"it's not an indicator of anything"

no problems in TJ! just business as usual!

castaway$ - 8-2-2010 at 12:16 PM

FISHING guys!!!!! This is the fishing page

DENNIS - 8-2-2010 at 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by castaway$
FISHING guys!!!!! This is the fishing page

Oh yeah....so it is. How did this happen?

Trolling

toneart - 8-2-2010 at 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by castaway$
FISHING guys!!!!! This is the fishing page

Oh yeah....so it is. How did this happen?

is a valid form of fishing :?:

Oh well...the guy has apologized and should be given a clean lure box. :light:

Edited to absolve blame:

The newby was actually lured into the mode of rudeness that so often prevails here. While he (or anyone) has the option of taking the higher road, he fought back and probably expected support, given who the flamer is and his usual modus operandi. :rolleyes:

I think he has entered with intelligence. While I don't necessarily agree with his opinion on journalism in general, he presented that opinion with confidence. I think he will prove to be a welcome addition to our Nomad community.

Interesting how the pecking order is assumed here, as it is in most companies, neighborhoods and schoolyards. :rolleyes:

[Edited on 8-2-2010 by toneart]

Woooosh - 8-2-2010 at 07:21 PM

I clicked on the "pecking order" link above and nothing happened. Are you on that list somewhere ? :lol: