BajaNomad - Tragic Accident at MDR race in Lucerne Valley

Tragic Accident at MDR race in Lucerne Valley

bajaandy - 8-15-2010 at 05:34 PM

Not Baja related, but certainly something that pertains to the "off-road" family.

Yesterday, eight young men and women were killed in a tragic accident at an off road race in Lucerne Valley.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100815/ap_on_sp_ot/us_off_road_...

Among them was a friend of mine, a talented young man, musician, fabricator, racer... now gone in the prime of his life. His only mistake was standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Many, many people have been affected by this horrible accident. To that end, a fund has been set up to collect donations for the victims and their families. If you feel so inclined, you can donate via PayPal. Specify that you want the donation to go to the "California 200" incident.
http://www.fast-aid.org/

Cypress - 8-15-2010 at 05:38 PM

The wrong place at the wrong time.

elgatoloco - 8-15-2010 at 05:40 PM

Terrible.

Mexicorn - 8-15-2010 at 05:52 PM

It's on the 5PM news here in San Diego. Eight dead, all bystanders just watching the race- poor souls. Thoughts and prayers go out to the victims family's. :no:

David K - 8-15-2010 at 05:59 PM

Andy, I am sorry for the tragic loss of your friend and for the others who have lost or injured friends and family.

Woooosh - 8-15-2010 at 06:43 PM

The driver was pelted with rocks after the crash. I understand people being upset at the scene, but wtf? Sometimes caca pasa, that's all. The families who lost loved ones said the race was staged as safe as it could be. Nature of the beast.

bonanza bucko - 8-15-2010 at 07:01 PM

It's gonna be a blot on the freedom of these events but it's deserved if the newsholes are correct in their reporting on it.....they said that there was only 10 feet between the race course and the spectators and no barrier between the two...that's stupid.

BB

DianaT - 8-15-2010 at 07:56 PM

So very sorry Andy for your loss and my thoughts are with the families of the victims. Sad, so very sad for all.

Curt63 - 8-15-2010 at 08:09 PM

My condolences

bajaandy - 8-15-2010 at 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
The driver was pelted with rocks after the crash. I understand people being upset at the scene, but wtf? Sometimes caca pasa, that's all. The families who lost loved ones said the race was staged as safe as it could be. Nature of the beast.

This version of the story was later recanted. Apparently no one was throwing rocks at the driver. He was (understandably) incredibly shook up. Who wouldn't be?

DianaT - 8-15-2010 at 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaandy
He was (understandably) incredibly shook up. Who wouldn't be?

It is also very, very sad for him----

mtgoat666 - 8-16-2010 at 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bonanza bucko
reporting on it.....they said that there was only 10 feet between the race course and the spectators and no barrier between the two...

in that case, the drivers were negligent for not slowing down. race situation does not excuse drivers from acting responsibly when they see a dangerous situation of spectators too close.

E.D.R.Rick - 8-16-2010 at 07:40 AM

every year my wife and I go north of San Felipe(2 poles)and watch the baja 250 race,everyone standing on the course watching the race and getting cool pictures.I think I just learned my lesson.Thoughts and prayers.

Alan - 8-16-2010 at 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
in that case, the drivers were negligent for not slowing down. race situation does not excuse drivers from acting responsibly when they see a dangerous situation of spectators too close.

I feel very sorry for those who lost their lives but are you telling me that you really believe people have no responsibility for their own actions and this is the driver's fault? Standing on the outside of a downhill curve at the bottom of a jump is just a poor decision that unfortunately they paid the ultimate price to learn. I'm sure the driver couldn't even see them until he landed and by the news reports I have seen, he was on the brakes immediately once he did.

race deaths

akshadow - 8-16-2010 at 08:46 AM

Death and injury affects many more than just those injured or dead. Condolences to those affected.

BUT this was a race, purpose to win, spectators realize there is a danger . This event should NOT be used as reason for rules, barriers etc.

OFF ROAD racing is just those things, racing and off road. No one could be expected to build 50 or 1000 miles of barriers, or to assure there was "crowd control" over the length of the race. Beginning and ending points usually have some ropes. In the San Felipe races, the only ones I have attended, these ropes only define the track and certainly would not make a person safe in the case of a roll over accident;

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by bonanza bucko
reporting on it.....they said that there was only 10 feet between the race course and the spectators and no barrier between the two...

in that case, the drivers were negligent for not slowing down. race situation does not excuse drivers from acting responsibly when they see a dangerous situation of spectators too close.

Barry A. - 8-16-2010 at 08:55 AM

akshadow, you are exactly right!

Barry

TMW - 8-16-2010 at 09:04 AM

I am sorry for the loss of life at the event. MDR runs an open race as opposed to a closed race run by SCORE in the US as well as BITD and SNORE. By open I mean the public is allowed to be pretty much anywhere just like the SCORE and CODE races in Mexico. The promoter (MDR) does have rules that say the public needs to be at least 100 feet from the race course and they also have a rule that says the driver must slow to 15mph when near (I think it's 15 ft) of spectators. The problem is the spectators do get close to the race course and the drivers are racing. Add a few adult drinks and the spectators get a little macho and move closer. Anyone who has been to the zoo road during a SCORE event knows this. In Baja especially it's a macho thing to stand in front of a race vehicle until the last minute or to slap a race vehicle as it goes by. Why would anyone stand on the out side corner next to a race course? Which is exactly what happened a few years ago at the Baja 500 race and I believe it was a Baldwin who rolled his truck into the spectators. If I remember right a few were hurt and 1 or 2 killed and Jim Baldwin flew his son out of Baja for safe keeping. One of the spectators who was not seriously hurt was Ivan's son.

People do stupid things and the more alcohol they consume the dumber they get. Even without the alcohol you need to think about what is going on. That's a 2-3 ton truck hauling 50+mph don't be stupid back off and live.
I think the amazing thing is that there have not been more deaths like this in Off-Road Racing.

This accident will probably result in the end of open desert racing for cars in CA. Whether the promoter MDR will survive is anyones guess and only time will tell.

[Edited on 8-16-2010 by TW]

mtgoat666 - 8-16-2010 at 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by akshadow
OFF ROAD racing is just those things, racing and off road. No one could be expected to build 50 or 1000 miles of barriers, or to assure there was "crowd control" over the length of the race.

in my industry all injuries are considered preventable, and all activities are planned to prevent injuries, and there is no such thing as an "accident." injuries are considered preventable.
i doubt that the business of race promotion (and their insurers and the land owners) considers spectator injury/death an acceptable part of doing business,... but it seeems that some of the fans are

akshadow - 8-16-2010 at 10:54 AM

All injuries might be preventable,
But at what cost
What about personal responsibility?
I don't believe Government knows best.
It creates laws/rules to "Protect everyone" but the impact on all others outweighs the benefits.

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

David K - 8-16-2010 at 11:38 AM

It was a race... the truck that rolled was not the first race car of the event, so it was no mystery as to where the race course was. People watching the race do so knowing it is a race and knew where the race cars were going. It is their responsibilty to stay far enough from the race course to be safe should there be a roll over or skid.

People do get too close to the action, and it is not a surprise when they get hit... very sad, but true. The racers pay money to race their vehicles as a test of man & machine vs. the terrain. They are NOT out there to entertain people who come to watch, as those people pay nothing to the organization and thus no money goes to racers from the people along the course. Nobody wants anyone hurt, and if you don't want to get hurt, don't stand next to a race course.

Several families' lives were destroyed, it is a sad, sad thing... but as said above... it was preventable.... preventable by those who went to watch a race by staying the recommended safe distance from the course as posted by MDR... or by using common sense.

bent-rim - 8-16-2010 at 11:39 AM

If you're spectating on an Open Course it would seem that you are responsible for where you are spectating. I've seen alot of Darwinian behavoir at Off Road races.

Alan - 8-16-2010 at 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

in my industry all injuries are considered preventable, and all activities are planned to prevent injuries, and there is no such thing as an "accident." injuries are considered preventable.
i doubt that the business of race promotion (and their insurers and the land owners) considers spectator injury/death an acceptable part of doing business,... but it seeems that some of the fans are

Let's play "What's my line". My turn - "Are you a Lawyer?" Ie; He who has the ability to pay, must be found at fault.

Amen, akshadow. Everyone wants to blame someone else for THEIR poor choices.

Unfortunately, especially because this happened in Ca with our abundance of lawyers, I am sure this will severely impact the future of off-road racing.

Are all accidents preventable - probably. But at what cost? In Ca it is usually at the cost of taking away more personal freedoms from all.

I'm very saddened by this incident. My heart goes out to all those who were killed or injuried. A close, personal friend was one of those injured and thankfully he is going to be alright. He was one of the lucky ones who made a poor choice but will live to learn from it. I also feel for the responders that had to deal wth the aftermath. If I hadn't recently retired I would have been one of those responders that night but ultimately people need to accept responsibility for their decisions. Should we outlaw skydiving and hang gliding because people stream in ocassionally? I would hope never, though I have never tried either of these sports. Should we restrict them to areas where they can't hurt others if they come crashing down, by all means.

These people made the choice to stand inside the 100' limit they were advised to maintain and unfortunately they paid for that poor decision.

mtgoat666 - 8-16-2010 at 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
They are NOT out there to entertain people who come to watch, as those people pay nothing to the organization and thus no money goes to racers from the people along the course. Nobody wants anyone hurt, and if you don't want to get hurt, don't stand next to a race course.

dk: it is interesting how you place the blame on the spectators. what about the promoters and racers providing an "atrractive nuisance?" if the racers want to race and avoid people, they should stick to private land or hire security to chase away the spectators...

Barry A. - 8-16-2010 at 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Goat-------I DO hope you are just playing "devils advocate" here-------nobody could actually believe the things you come up with-----NOBODY!!!! :no:

Barry

burnrope - 8-16-2010 at 07:26 PM

Maybe the result of this will be more off road racing in Baja since it will be more difficult/impossible to secure a permit from the BLM.

drarroyo - 8-16-2010 at 09:58 PM

it really boils down to a warped sense of entitlement in this 'day & age' (another topic)

condolences to the families

[Edited on 8-17-2010 by drarroyo]

PJPadilla - 8-17-2010 at 11:12 AM

bajaandy, my deepest condolences go out to you and, most of all, your friend's loved ones. Very, very saddened by all of this. Appreciate the link to FAST-Aid...donation made.

Really David

vgabndo - 8-17-2010 at 02:02 PM

The racers are only in a man versus machine versus the environment situation. It is all very Zen, right. The feeding of the egos of the drivers, the millions spent on purpose built equipment, with ADVERTISING all over the vehicles, none of this has anything to do with the unnecessary spectators, right?

That's about as realistic as your take on Global Warming!

Any race vehicle will go faster with the wheels on the ground, yet "big air" is part of SATISFYING THE FANS. The fact that many of the fans are not in their right minds as a result of "adult" depressant drugs can easily contrubute to a fatal combination.

In this as in all other things, natural selection ALWAYS wins.

In the film I've seen, it would appear that people lined the course elbow to elbow for miles. That seems pretty unlikely. My guess is that the crowd assembled there because the racers were most out of control there. Was that a conscious choice; likely. Were the people who were most in harm's way being conscious of their surroundings? That is hard to believe. Were they all still so young as to still feel "bulletproof? It is very sad, and all too common in our culture.

Bottom line David: Take the spectatators and the advertising out of the racing, and the racing WILL end.

[Edited on 8-17-2010 by vgabndo]

David K - 8-17-2010 at 02:12 PM

Interesting that you pick my name, Perry... none-the-less, as a former off road racer and pit team member, I think I have better insight onto why we like to race off road than some ... well, let's not use names.

If you follow this news, you will hear that families and friends of those killed or injured do NOT blame the racer... He was there to race, and the fans went there BECAUSE there was a race, not the other way-around. Fans go to a speed event to see speed... Racers don't go to a speed event to drive 15 mph by their fans, or because fans are there.

vgabndo - 8-17-2010 at 02:21 PM

My mistake. Keeping the wheels on the ground will help the vehicle go QUICKER, because you also can't use the brakes with the tires off the ground. Just as in NHRA, it is the quickest, not necessarily the fastest, vehicle that wins the race. When the drags got out of control, NHRA shortened the tracks by 320 feet. What will be the response of racers on public lands?

David K - 8-17-2010 at 02:29 PM

I think the news alone should be enough to teach a hard lesson of being too close to a race course... but knowing how government wants to do the thinking for us, some barriers will be erected and there will be special areas where people can watch from, not just anywhere in the desert. Or, to the delight of special interests, the sport of desert racing in the U.S. will end, after 40+ years.

mtgoat666 - 8-17-2010 at 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
the fans went there BECAUSE there was a race,

i really doubt people care about the competition. people go to car races to see power, destruction and crashes. people go to boxing matches to see a beating and blood. the motivation of people is pretty simple. violence and destruction sells. people crave violence and destruction. just look at the movies.

vgabndo - 8-17-2010 at 02:51 PM

Why names? Because you said this nonsense.

"The racers pay money to race their vehicles as a test of man & machine vs. the terrain. They are NOT out there to entertain people who come to watch,..."

To your credit, your subsequent posts seem to indicate that you really didn't mean that.

I'm just stating the obvious, although I too have raced and pitted for others, unlike you I am no expert on the motivations of drivers who knowingly put their fans in danger race after race because that driver didn't ask the fans to stand that close to the track. The willingness to drive so close to "out of control" that close to spectators MUST indicate a level of unconcern for the fans. Can a driver really say that they entered another race, knowing that the roadsides would be clogged with people in the most dangerous places, and killing a few of them is none of his responsibility?

I'm reminded of the TV commercial with a guy getting ready to jump out of an airplane. "This parachute was properly packed, Right?" He asks. And the hippie characature responds, "Duh, PROBABLY!"

At this point a sensable person waits for the plane to land and quits the sport if that is the way it is always going to be and one wants to avoid the splat.

TMW - 8-17-2010 at 06:03 PM

What Ivan has to say about it.

http://www.kusi.com/home/100909754.html

BajaNomad - 8-17-2010 at 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
What Ivan has to say about it.

http://www.kusi.com/home/100909754.html

bajaandy - 8-17-2010 at 09:11 PM

I had no interest in starting a debate about off road racing, rather I had hoped to convince some of you to make a donation on behalf of those young men and women who lost their lives. As of today, Fast-Aid.org has raised over $100,000.00 to help with this tragedy. (PJPadilla, a sincere thanks to you for making a donation.)

TMW - 8-18-2010 at 04:27 PM

Wally at ORW comments.

http://www.kusi.com/home/The-Future-of-Off-Road-Racing--1009...