Edited to correct heading date from the 19th to the 16th for someone's precious Baja California accuracy!
[Edited on 10-24-2010 by ELINVESTIG8R]krafty - 10-19-2010 at 09:31 PM
Feliz Cumpleanos, Mama Espinoza-what a beautiful galDavid K - 10-19-2010 at 11:10 PM
DITTO!Lobsterman - 10-20-2010 at 04:22 AM
Not a bad looking Lady for 104 years old. Must be the food. So stop at her Fountain of Youth on the way down & back.woody with a view - 10-20-2010 at 07:00 AM
we drove north the day before and yelled "happy birthday" out the window as we passed by.
something tells me that's when that foto was taken!Bob H - 10-20-2010 at 07:01 AM
WOW!norte - 10-20-2010 at 07:53 AM
It appears not many of you went (thank you David Investigator). Sad... since many you of profess to be such long-time friends and customersGregN - 10-20-2010 at 09:30 AM
No question. One of Baja's true legends. Gracious and smart.wessongroup - 10-20-2010 at 09:32 AM
Good for her...TMW - 10-20-2010 at 09:33 AM
I hope she has many more. Thanks David for your short and to the point trip report and picture.David K - 10-20-2010 at 10:20 AM
104, 103, 102 or 100...? Mama is getting younger and younger!
In her 1994 autobiography 'Reflections' on page 8, Mama gives her birth year as 1908.
In the book Mama autographed to me and told me was the 'correct one' about her: 'Anita' c2002, pg. 47, her birthdate is given as Oct. 16, 1910...
Making here finally an even 100 years old this month....???
Oh well, as I said before, at that age it is just a number!!!
Happy Birthday Doña Anita!BAJACAT - 10-20-2010 at 10:48 AM
Feliz Cumple Anos Don´a Anita...Mexitron - 10-20-2010 at 12:05 PM
Wow, way to go Mama Espinoza! Keep 'em coming! Thanks for sharing Elinvestig8tor.toneart - 10-20-2010 at 12:17 PM
Feliz Cumpleanos, Mama! Lo siento que no fui en su gran dia. Estaba con mucho gusto, la encuentra nuestras en Mayo. Me recuerdas? Yo espero!
Gracias David, para la photographia!BajaGringo - 10-20-2010 at 03:35 PM
Cristina and I went again this year and had a great time on Saturday . It was really nice to see ELINVESTIG8R and his family. Mama just keeps going
and going with an incredible memory for her years. If you haven't had an opportunity to meet her I suggest that you take the time to do so next time
you pass through.
She is one very special lady...BajaBlanca - 10-20-2010 at 04:37 PM
We stopped by 2 weeks ago on our way down from San Diego. I bought a book and left it for her to autograph, as she wan't up yet. A friend picked it
up yesterday for me on his way north and will bring it back in a week or so...
BUT, Juanchys, a local fisherman, told me that the original Mama Espinoza died and that this is really her sister ??????????????
(edited to correct information)
[Edited on 10-20-2010 by BajaBlanca]BajaGringo - 10-20-2010 at 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BajaBlanca
BUT, this same person told me that the original Mama Espinoza died and that this is really her sister ??????????????
Does your friend drink much???BajaBlanca - 10-20-2010 at 04:53 PM
No, actually, I remembered it was Juanchys (who is a local captain) who told me, and not the guy who is picking up my book ... Juanchys may be
misinformed but that is what he believes to be true.David K - 10-20-2010 at 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BajaBlanca
We stopped by 2 weeks ago on our way down from San Diego. I bought a book and left it for her to autograph, as she wan't up yet. A friend picked it
up yesterday for me on his way north and will bring it back in a week or so...
BUT, Juanchys, a local fisherman, told me that the original Mama Espinoza died and that this is really her sister ??????????????
(edited to correct information)
[Edited on 10-20-2010 by BajaBlanca]
Anita was the youngest of 10 children born to Tecla and Eugenio Eduardo Grosso Bouitare. If her sister is filling in, then she is even older.. maybe
102, 103 or 104 like this Mama Espinoza!BajaBlanca - 10-20-2010 at 05:04 PM
and you know what else ? that wd explain the age discrepancy and wrong dates, right ?David K - 10-20-2010 at 05:15 PM
Anita's brothers and sisters (from 'Reflections' by Mama (Anita) Espinoza c1994):
* The 2002 book 'Anita' gives the year as 1910ELINVESTIG8R - 10-20-2010 at 08:01 PM
According to her birth registration she was born October 16, 1906. David if you have doubts as to Mama's age and wish to continue to dispute what I
have said here with respect to her age please go see her daughter Roli and ask to see Mama's birth registration papers. She will show them to you. I
will call her tomorrow to let her know that a David K will be coming to investigate Mama's age as he does not believe it.David K - 10-20-2010 at 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R
According to her birth registration she was born October 16, 1906. David if you have doubts as to Mama's age and wish to continue to dispute what I
have said here with respect to her age please go see her daughter Roli and ask to see Mama's birth registration papers. She will show them to you. I
will call her tomorrow to let her know that a David K will be coming to investigate Mama's age as he does not believe it.
David my friend... I have nothing to do with it. Mama herself told me the book 'Anita' which I bought from her is the authentic truth of her life...
and it gives the birthdate as Oct. 16, 1910... makes her 100 this year.
The other book that I provided another date from was her autobiography, published in 1994 and that gives the date of Oct. 16, 1908... which would make
her 102.
I am only providing published dates from her own books.
Beercan gets invited to a 103 birthday party this month and you post an date of Oct. 19... and an age of 104 years, which would mean she and her
sister Adelaida were born the same year and she would have a younger sister named Amalia born in 1907. Yet Anita is the youngest of the 10 Grosso
children???
Who is investigating? The only thing I care about is accuracy and facts about Baja history.ELINVESTIG8R - 10-21-2010 at 03:20 AM
David you want accuracy go to El Rosario and talk to Mama herself and get the facts first hand. Remember Mama did not write the book someone else did
and they got their facts wrong. David she is 104 period. Like I said go see her and ask to see her birth registration. The book got it wrong and you
coming out here to try to make her look stupid or worse, a liar really does a disservice to her legacy and really peees me off. So get your a s s
down to El Rosario and get the accuracy you seem to need and publish it here. October 16, 1906 makes her 104 years old.BajaBlanca - 10-21-2010 at 01:05 PM
settle down you all ..... settle down, please, por favor, per favore,
......... one would presume a book esp. an AUTOBIOGRAPHY would be correct and there are many dates flying around... it is Ok, trust me, the world
will continue to turn and Mama (and they are all Mamas) will continue to get older ....
and the birth certificate obviously counts the best, we presume. I wd never think to ask to see it. But great that you did and can share this
information.
however, that being said, maybe the family wants the aura of the original mama to continue ???? or maybe they all wanted to be Mama Espinoza's ??????
Juanchys is a pretty credible man, I imagine he got the scoop somewhere that the original Mama had died ....
no matter what, information on birthday date/year should NOT have been published if it is incorrect. But then this is Mexico, verdad ?????????????
and we can deal with this issue manana ......... pull into your hammocks if you are in Mexico, or pull into your easy chair if you are NOT and please
please please chill. No reason to get upset and every reason to state your case quietly if you are right. IMHO. and pls., no yelling at me, I am very
sensitive, besides that, Uncle Guido can ... never mind .....let's chill ...David K - 10-21-2010 at 04:24 PM
I am only showing what is documented in books... one is written by Mama Espinoza, another is the book Mama told me last year (July 25, 2009) is the
accurate one on her life, and still another was written by a Baja Nomad (GregN) about the legends of Baja...
Here is Mama autographing the book to Elizabeth and I last year... the one she says has the truth about her in it:
Here is that book:
Here is the page with her birth given (a zoom in is below):
Here is Greg Niemann's excellent book:
Here is a close up of the Mama Espinoza part beginning:
Here is the book that MAMA wrote about her life (in 1994):
A close up of the page she wrote about her birth:
In that book is the list SHE gave of her sibblings... Unless she was a twin and not the youngest child, she couldn't have been born before 1908:
1890: Arturo
1892: Angelio
1894: Juan
1896: Eduardo
1898: Emelio
1903: Teresa
1905: Eugenio
1906: Adelaida (104 years ago)
1907: Amalia (103 years ago)
1908*: Anita (102 in Oct. 2010)
So, by Mama's own writing she is 102... or if the book she told me was correct is the truth, then she is 100. Greg's great book on Baja's great people
and places also puts her at 100 this year.
This is all from Mama Espinoza, not me... and I would never say Mama is lying.
Personally, I like the 1908 version, for one it is her autobiography... and secondly the mention of no registration (or certificates issued) until
1910 would mean that 1910 would be the oldest documentation date (100 years ago). So no earlier certificate exists, according to Mama's own words.Bob H - 10-21-2010 at 10:05 PM
At that age I may not quite remember the year I was born either.
Audrey and I met Mama a few years ago..... maybe 1998.... was cooking up some fish soup which smelled fantastic!... she is a wonderful woman, for
sure.
Bob H
[Edited on 10-22-2010 by Bob H]ELINVESTIG8R - 10-22-2010 at 05:22 AM
David I don't give a "F" what those books say! They have the facts wrong! If Mama tells me she is 104 she is 104 and who the "F" are you to say
different. October 16, 1906 was when she was born and you dragging out the books with inaccurate information which she did not write will not change
that. Get your a s s down to El Rosario and tell Mama she is not 104 and call her a "GD" liar. Go ahead Mr. I need accuracy. Don't come in here
raining on Mama's parade until you go to the source to get the truth. You won't though because you are a typical coward keyboard commando. David, any
possible of a friendship with you has been erased. "FU" you "F-ING" "AH." I hope and pray the day comes that I can tell you that to your face. This is
my last word on this.
Re-Edit to say: Ok this is actually the last I say anything about this! I will call Roli today to let her know that you "David K" have thrown down the
gauntlet and are challenging the veracity of Mama's age. I will tell her to expect you some day if you have the balls to go and to give you the
correct information so you can have your "Precious Baja California Accuracy." You better go down to El Rosario to get the information now since you
have besmirched Mama's name and I expect a retraction here on Baja Nomad once you get it.
[Edited on 10-22-2010 by ELINVESTIG8R]David K - 10-22-2010 at 07:31 AM
Boy, again we have a failure to communicate... I don't care how old Mama is. It is just highly interesting that her own book, that she said her sister
Adelaida was born in 1906, and she came 2 years later. Then in the book SHE told me is the one with correct information, has her born 100 years ago,
in 1910.
Now, before you posted her birthday as being the 19th of October (it is the 16th) in this thread, 'beercan' (a pilot) posted that he was invited to
her 103rd birthday party... ? That's when I pulled out the books. It is interesting reading and if you have issues with what they say, then ask the
authors (Mama being one) and 'GregN' who is a Nomad is another.
If anything, this is meant to raise interest in Mama... rather than being a simple happy birthday and going away. I have no reason to upset you David,
and I am sorry that you are getting upset.
As an investigator, I would think you would want as much information as possible and not just accept one's statement that defies at least three
published books... including one written by the person in question.
I also have to ask you why would anyone want to publish false information about a birthdate?
If Mama was born in 1906, what are the new dates for her brothers' and sisters' births... since these years that Mama wrote are now incorrect?:
1890: Arturo
1892: Angelio
1894: Juan
1896: Eduardo
1898: Emelio
1903: Teresa
1905: Eugenio
1906: Adelaida (104 years ago)
1907: Amalia (103 years ago)
1908*: Anita (102 in Oct. 2010)
Please don't be mad David, be curious!
Thank you!!bajaguy - 10-22-2010 at 07:50 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R
David I don't give a "F" what those books say! They have the facts wrong! If Mama tells me she is 104 she is 104 and who the "F" are you to say
different. October 16, 1906 was when she was born and you dragging out the books with inaccurate information which she did not write will not change
that. Get your a s s down to El Rosario and tell Mama she is not 104 and call her a "GD" liar. Go ahead Mr. I need accuracy. Don't come in here
raining on Mama's parade until you go to the source to get the truth. You won't though because you are a typical coward keyboard commando. David, any
possible of a friendship with you has been erased. "FU" you "F-ING" "AH." I hope and pray the day comes that I can tell you that to your face. This is
my last word on this.
Re-Edit to say: Ok this is actually the last I say anything about this! I will call Roli today to let her know that you "David K" have thrown down the
gauntlet and are challenging the veracity of Mama's age. I will tell her to expect you some day if you have the balls to go and to give you the
correct information so you can have your "Precious Baja California Accuracy." You better go down to El Rosario to get the information now since you
have besmirched Mama's name and I expect a retraction here on Baja Nomad once you get it.
[Edited on 10-22-2010 by ELINVESTIG8R]
David, you have gone over the edge with this. Your rant is totally uncalled for. You have some interesting Baja stories based on your personal
experiences, and I enjoy reading about them. However this type of response from you diminishes your credibility and professionalism with me.rts551 - 10-22-2010 at 08:10 AM
DavidK
Why don't you just take all your "facts"down there and present them as you have here.
Or is there a point to the "keyboard commando"?David K - 10-22-2010 at 08:22 AM
OK... I quoted from the book Mama herself sold me last year... and two others... Not my 'made up dates'... bajamigo - 10-22-2010 at 08:57 AM
According to Mama Espinoza's autobiography, records began to be kept in 1910. It's entirely plausible to me that she was born earlier and that a
clerical error occurred at the time of recording her birth. How many times do we put the wrong year on the checks we write, especially around the
beginning of the year? And in 1910, in a society where literacy wasn't widespread, I can visualize some harried clerk making a common error.rts551 - 10-22-2010 at 09:07 AM
Very true. But why would anyone question what she says on her birthday... All it would do is ruin her day. Let her state how hold she is no matter
what the books say.
Quote:
Originally posted by bajamigo
According to Mama Espinoza's autobiography, records began to be kept in 1910. It's entirely plausible to me that she was born earlier and that a
clerical error occurred at the time of recording her birth. How many times do we put the wrong year on the checks we write, especially around the
beginning of the year? And in 1910, in a society where literacy wasn't widespread, I can visualize some harried clerk making a common error.
David K - 10-22-2010 at 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by bajamigo
According to Mama Espinoza's autobiography, records began to be kept in 1910. It's entirely plausible to me that she was born earlier and that a
clerical error occurred at the time of recording her birth. How many times do we put the wrong year on the checks we write, especially around the
beginning of the year? And in 1910, in a society where literacy wasn't widespread, I can visualize some harried clerk making a common error.
Exactly a point I made (but missed by some?)... Mama wrote in her own book that record keeping didn't begin until 1910... So (she adds) that she was
born in 1908... in her autobiography.
If she changed her mind or got new info. since her 1994 book... fine, but then when wer her older sisters born she had written were born in 1907 and
1906... if she was born in 1906 (instead of 1908)? I would think her memory would have been the same or better (not worse) 16 years ago???
I wonder if Greg Niemann's 1910 date was told to him by Mama herself, or where he got that date... as it is also in the book Mama sells as her
'correct' life story?
None of this search into Baja history should deminish her as a special citizen of Baja or her having a happy birthday... In no way is it intended to
criticize her, but instead to discover how so many authors/ publishers have a different date than apparently she now has for her birth. Why would
anyone publish a wrong year on purpose? That is the real question, I think.LancairDriver - 10-22-2010 at 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by bajaguy
Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R
David I don't give a "F" what those books say! They have the facts wrong! If Mama tells me she is 104 she is 104 and who the "F" are you to say
different. October 16, 1906 was when she was born and you dragging out the books with inaccurate information which she did not write will not change
that. Get your a s s down to El Rosario and tell Mama she is not 104 and call her a "GD" liar. Go ahead Mr. I need accuracy. Don't come in here
raining on Mama's parade until you go to the source to get the truth. You won't though because you are a typical coward keyboard commando. David, any
possible of a friendship with you has been erased. "FU" you "F-ING" "AH." I hope and pray the day comes that I can tell you that to your face. This is
my last word on this.
Re-Edit to say: Ok this is actually the last I say anything about this! I will call Roli today to let her know that you "David K" have thrown down the
gauntlet and are challenging the veracity of Mama's age. I will tell her to expect you some day if you have the balls to go and to give you the
correct information so you can have your "Precious Baja California Accuracy." You better go down to El Rosario to get the information now since you
have besmirched Mama's name and I expect a retraction here on Baja Nomad once you get it.
[Edited on 10-22-2010 by ELINVESTIG8R]
David, you have gone over the edge with this. Your rant is totally uncalled for. You have some interesting Baja stories based on your personal
experiences, and I enjoy reading about them. However this type of response from you diminishes your credibility and professionalism with me.
Well stated Bajaguy, and I agree. What the H is wrong with pointing out some published discrepancy's regarding Mama's age? DK doesn't call her a liar,
he simply points out some conflicting previously published information. I also believe an autobiography, unlike a biography is a persons life story in
their own words. DK was also one of the first to wish her happy Birthday, and has taken the time to visit with her, which shows his respect. I would
advise ELINVESTIG8R to back off on the threats, he is destined to threaten the wrong person one of these days.ELINVESTIG8R - 10-22-2010 at 01:32 PM
I don't care what anyone says about me I can defend myself. If you do not like what I wrote you can write me off. I could give a Sh.t.
When someone intimates that Mama who is in fact 104 years old is a liar, she is my Mama and I will defend her to the death. Hold that against me.
Fine!
I just got off the telephone with Roli and she said that record keeping did not begin until 1910 and that is when Mama and her husband Heraclio were
registered. Roli says Mama was born on October 16, 1906 and her dad Heraclio was born on 6 October 1907. Roli told me not to get angry with people who
denounce Mama.
I told her it was too late as my anger had already escaped in my writings in here. I told her my anger is genuine and that I will not take it back. As
far as I am concerned someone in here marred my very short trip report covering Mama's 104th birthday. For that I will never forgive the person.
I have a foul mouth which I can/will back up whether I say it in cyberspace or in your presence.
This “AH” could have had the good sense of contacting me privately with their concerns/reservations but oh no, he had to embarrass me and the Espinoza
family.
I promise to tell the person the way the cow eats the cabbage if/when I see him. Nothing violent but I will be very verbal.David K - 10-22-2010 at 01:43 PM
Thanks LancairDriver... That is all I was doing and I am right up there with everyone to wish Mama a happy birthday. She would probably laugh as would
Roli if they knew such anger was being created over the many printed years being questioned...?
ELINVESTIG8R's being angry is something I do not wish... and if he wants, I will remove the attention his birthday thread is getting (from my posts
about the three books and beercan's invite comments have made) and move it to beercan's 103rd birthday invite thread.
All I was doing was a little 'INVESTI8ing' myself!ELINVESTIG8R - 10-22-2010 at 02:09 PM
My anger has subsided and I hope that what has been written is left on the thread and not deleted as it is genuine. As far as I am concerned this
issue is over. Thank you!David K - 10-22-2010 at 02:28 PM
The phrase "don't shoot the messenger" comes to mind...Cypress - 10-22-2010 at 02:43 PM
Happy Birthday Mamma Espinoza!BajaBlanca - 10-22-2010 at 02:44 PM
amazing how something so innocent gets so out of hand .... really, now.mtgoat666 - 10-22-2010 at 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I don't care how old Mama is.
then why are you waging a war with Elvis8 about her age?
[Edited on 10-23-2010 by mtgoat666]desertcpl - 10-22-2010 at 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I don't care how old Mama is.
then why are you waging a war with Elvis8 about her age?
david
I was going to stay out of this.
but why do you always try to correct people, with petty bull s**t.. you just cant leave it alone. who cares about what her age is,, she is a legend
I would think Elvis8 has more of a insite about this,, leave it alone.
go play with your GPSrts551 - 10-22-2010 at 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The phrase "don't shoot the messenger" comes to mind...
Desertcpl
How can you criticize a guy who is not accountable for hs own postsMexicorn - 10-22-2010 at 06:48 PM
What a wonderful woman. Happy Birthday mama!
[Edited on 10-23-2010 by Mexicorn]desertcpl - 10-22-2010 at 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Mexicorn
What a wonderful woman. Happy Birthday mama!
[Edited on 10-23-2010 by Mexicorn]
yes
I have never meet her ,, but have read alot about her,
Happy Birthday Mamawessongroup - 10-22-2010 at 07:48 PM
Anyone like chili?TMW - 10-23-2010 at 09:48 AM
Yes with chopped onions and a little cheeze.
Happy birthday Mama with many more to come.bajafam - 10-23-2010 at 10:57 AM
We were honored to have met her on our last trip, and she shared with us so many fascinating details of her life and the history of her family in El
Rosario....it was a true pleasure.
When Lionel attempted to speak to her in Spanish, he caught himself and said to her, "oh, that's right, you speak English." She laughed and said, "I
have lived here all my life and I speak perfect English....what's your excuse?"
As far as her age goes, she told us she would be celebrating her birthday in October, and that we could come and celebrate with her and her family and
friends. She said she would be "100 and something." I wish we had been able to attend.
She also said that all she needed was "the sun and her rice and beans." So, that's the secret to a long and lovely life.
Happy Birthday, Mama! Thank you for sharing your stories with us
[Edited on 10-23-2010 by bajafam]David K - 10-23-2010 at 03:22 PM
Wonderful photos and story Michelle! Thank you...bajafam - 10-23-2010 at 05:01 PM
Thanks David! It was such an absolute pleasure to meet her....she is so full of history. I hope that I can be 1/3 as spry as she is when I'm "100 and
something" !!!David K - 10-23-2010 at 05:32 PM
Yes, she was a highlight of our 2009 summer trip... when we were taken back to her living room and had a private meeting.
I love the answer she gave you... as it basically says we are all correct, she is 100 and something! Wonderful and colorful bit of Baja history, right
there in the great little town of El Rosario.
thank you David
desertcpl - 10-23-2010 at 06:12 PM
that was very nicedrarroyo - 10-24-2010 at 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Yes, she was a highlight of our 2009 summer trip... when we were taken back to her living room and had a private meeting.
then why are you waging a war with Elvis8 about her age? 
