BajaNomad

$1670 later....... UPDATE

Santiago - 10-24-2010 at 12:18 PM

Last year I put teflon slicks on my trailer and simply launch the boat by getting the trailer wheels just to the water, then punching the excellerator and slaming on the brakes - zip, the boat scoots off the bunks into the water. My truck rear wheels get a little wet but hubs are out of the water.
Earlier this month while driving to BOLA we heard the slightest of ticking sounds coming from under the truck. We launched in low tide and retrieved in high tide in the early afternoon, always keeping the hubs out of the water. However, there was one retrieve during a fairly low tide where water got halfway up the rear wheels.
On the drive home the slight ticking sound was still there. I took the truck in when we got back to my local shop who looked up my service histroy and noted that in March when I had my front brakes done that the rears were nearly ready. Oh, must need new rear shoes, $200 estimate or so, come back in an hour. Half hour later the shop owner calls me and says that my rear seals have blown, oil has saturated the shoes and drums and that everything must be replaced: drums, shoes, seals, better check the differential also. $500-600 now. Half hour later I get another call: we decided to check the fronts as you had no rear breaks for quite a while and the pads and rotors are below spec and both need replacing. Huh??? just had them done in the Spring. $1220 now. Fine, do it all, first rate, I live in my truck.
I pick the truck up just after closing time, Saturday night, and in backing out my foot goes all the way to the floor, have to pump the pedal to get pressure. I go get the shop owner who says they must have forgot to bleed the brakes completely, can I bring it back first thing Sunday morning and they will re-bleed the brakes. OK, I'm there at 9:00am Sunday and they bleed the brakes and get no bubbles. Turns out the master cylinder is bad. All this gets replaced and $1670 later my truck stops just fine.
Here's my questions:
1. How in the world does the master cylinder go out at just this very time? They claim they saw a little brake fluid below the Master cylinder.
2. Do you think saltwater got in the rear axle? There was no sign of it in the differential.
3. Why would both the right and left side seals let go at the same time?
4. Do I need to find a new shop?

[Edited on 10-24-2010 by Santiago]
11-14-10 Update:
OK. I went and got all my old parts and took them to 3 independent shops and the dealership where I bought the truck. Here is what I THINK I know:
1. Everyone said that the seals started leaking months before I went to Baja in October. Since I had the front pads replaced in the spring and the rear brakes checked (no sign of oil then), most were guessing late-spring/early- summer. The reason for this belief is that the amount of oil on/in the rear drums/shoes and the fact that the front rotors/pads were below spec. No way that could happen in a 1000-mile trip from BOLA to Norcal, most on the freeway. Saltwater did not cause this. Why both seals started leaking is anyone's guess.
2. Only one independent shop would say they would 'try' to clean the rear drums and even then they would not guarantee no problems. Liability issues. One hard questioning about this, most shop owners said if this was their vehicle, they would clean and turn the rear drums but check them weekly to make sure oil was not coming out of the metal and reducing braking. After a month or two they would then deem them safe. Not worth it for a customer and liability issues.
3. The cost for all the work I had authorized is near the top of the normal range in my area.
4. No one can come up with any reason why the master cylinder failed at this time. The shop foreman of the dealer, one of the largest in NorCal, says they do 4 or 5 of these complete rebuilds per week and they have never had a MC failure during the work. And yet, he was hard pressed to come up with a way they could have caused it to fail. He said that the new MCs are not bench-bled or even tested on the bench anymore but on the truck. Best we can come up with is shear bad luck or literal sabotage by the shop/tech.
O well, a lot of this research just raised more questions.
One thing I was surprised by is the nearly unanimous agreement that getting the rear hubs in water, even saltwater, has nothing to do with seals failing. Of course, there are other reasons not to do this, but seals aren't one of them, at least with the 4 shops I went to. Maybe shops in coastal towns will have a different opinion.

[Edited on 11-14-2010 by Santiago]

wessongroup - 10-24-2010 at 12:22 PM

All good questions.. Wow...

Cypress - 10-24-2010 at 12:35 PM

The answer to one of your question? Yes, you need to find a new shop.:yes:

bajafreaks - 10-24-2010 at 01:32 PM

Sounds like you got ripped off, and those prices are crazy.

monoloco - 10-24-2010 at 01:32 PM

This doesn't happen to be a Ford?

Santiago - 10-24-2010 at 01:44 PM

2007 Chevy K1500. I had the rear seals go on my Tundra 4 years ago.

captkw - 10-24-2010 at 06:24 PM

as a 50 yr young master mechainic(BOAT TECH) and still have to work on tow units....FIND A NEW SHOP!!!!

BAJABAILADOR - 10-24-2010 at 06:27 PM

find a new shop

fishingmako - 10-24-2010 at 06:47 PM

The dollar amount seems a bit hi? but on the other hand brakes etc. you had done on a truck can get pricy.

Here is my question, you should have known when a guy is charging these kind of dollars and wants you to come back on a Sunday, why would he not due that right then? wonder if it was all you had for tranportation.

That right there would have told me the guy may be a flake.

rts551 - 10-24-2010 at 07:09 PM

"On the drive home the slight ticking sound was still there. I took the truck in when we got back to my local shop who looked up my service histroy and noted that in March when I had my front brakes done that the rears were nearly ready"

Santiago

If he looked up your service history sounds like you have been to him before.

What gives?

Santiago - 10-24-2010 at 07:27 PM

This is a shop that I've gone to many times but this summer changed hands. I've got my oil changes, routine maintenance, brakes, belts, hoses, water pumps etc etc for about 10 years. I called a few other shops last week and got estimates around $1500 for similar work so the cost seems in line for my area.
My real question is about the saltwater - has this happened to anyone else? And is there any relationship to the MC going out and the other work? Don't we all get our trailer hubs in the saltwater every single time? I've never had a trailer bearing go out on me and yet, the one time I get my truck in over the hubs for maybe 5 minutes it causes all this? Seems way to coincidental to me.

BajaBruno - 10-24-2010 at 09:05 PM

A 2007 Chevy pickup has rear drum brakes? My 2003 Chevy 2500 has disks all around and yours is much newer. Maybe, I suppose. I can say that I have launched in the surge at Bahia Muertos many times where the trailer hitch was under water and have never had a problem with seals, rear diff., or anything else. And because I was launching alone, it stayed underwater for 20+ minutes or so every time. I'm sure there are exceptions, but so far saltwater has not been a problem for my Chevy.

Maderita - 10-24-2010 at 09:15 PM

A dip in saltwater should not have caused the rear axle seals to go bad.

Leaking gear lube will contaminate the brake shoes, which probably needed replacing anyway. Gear lube on the brake drums can be cleaned off, no big deal. Perhaps your drums were worn beyond specs, requiring replacement.

Sounds pricey to me. Something is wrong with that picture, since you had the brakes done just a few months ago. That's why you should stick around while the brakes are being disassembled and inspected. You can see for yourself what is really going on and avoid ripoffs.

Water above the hubs can be bad news, worse if it is above the axle tube's breather. The brakes aren't usually the problem. Serious damage occurs if water gets into the differential housing and contaminates the gear lube. That could destroy the gears and bearings if not dealt with almost immediately, resulting in a repair bill of $1K to $3K.

Seems highly coincidental that your master cyl failed at the same time. I'm guessing that they ran the reservoir low/dry when bleeding the brake lines (easy to do if you're not keeping an eye on it). Then they didn't successfully bleed the M/C. Depending on the vehicle, some M/C's are difficult to "bench bleed", best done with a vacuum bleeder.

Saltwater causes corrosion on the brake parts. Try to avoid getting them wet. If you do get saltwater in the drums, then hose them out with fresh water at the earliest possible opportunity.

rear axle

captkw - 10-24-2010 at 09:58 PM

hola/the rear axle vent should be vented up to the frame rail with a ckeck valve at the end of the flexible hose,way above the axle...I work on boats ,towing units and I think you might be well advised to seek out a shop where the guy knows somthing about what he should know to hang a sign out front. boats are like women...most men love;em but are the most misunderstood......same with fishing!!!.....oops:bounce:

Skipjack Joe - 10-24-2010 at 10:32 PM

Can you examine the original master cylinder for worn seals or internal corrosion? If not, can you take it to a knowledgable mechanic and have him evaluate it?

Iflyfish - 10-25-2010 at 05:51 AM

If you have enough damiana in your margaritas you won't care any more.

Iflyfish

wessongroup - 10-25-2010 at 06:19 AM

Man.. what a wealth of good information here ... ya can't beat it.. excellent thoughts and/or suggestions to solve a problem... thanks it all helps..

Santiago - 10-25-2010 at 06:30 AM

Thanks guys.
Here's the explanation I got from the shop:
Saltwater got into the axle, then heated up to boiling causing pressure to build, blowing out the seals and coating the shoes and drums with oil. The drums, for liability reasons, can not be turned and cleaned because the oil has penetrated the metal and the oil will eventually come out and cause the shoes to become oily. They note on the repair order: "Possible wheelcyl leaking may have damaged master cylinder".
I will take all this info to a real brake shop and see if I can get any more info.

FF: What's damiana?

[Edited on 10-25-2010 by Santiago]

larryC - 10-25-2010 at 07:46 AM

Jim
Maybe an extension on the trailer tongue would help so that you wouldn't have to get the truck in the water.
Just a thought
Larry

dtbushpilot - 10-25-2010 at 07:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Santiago
Thanks guys.
Here's the explanation I got from the shop:
Saltwater got into the axle, then heated up to boiling causing pressure to build, blowing out the seals and coating the shoes and drums with oil. The drums, for liability reasons, can not be turned and cleaned because the oil has penetrated the metal and the oil will eventually come out and cause the shoes to become oily. They note on the repair order: "Possible wheelcyl leaking may have damaged master cylinder".
I will take all this info to a real brake shop and see if I can get any more info.

FF: What's damiana?

[Edited on 10-25-2010 by Santiago]


I wasn't going to weigh in on this one because there are so many factors to consider when you are talking about mechanical failures but after I read their description of the events that caused the problem I can say without a doubt that you need to find a new shop.....dt

David K - 10-25-2010 at 08:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Santiago
...

FF: What's damiana?



from http://damiana.net/ :

Damiana Liqueur is a light herbal-based liqueur from Mexico. It's made with the damiana herb that grows in Baja California, Mexico. It has great mixability and tastes great as a shooter. The bottle is uniquely shaped and is modeled after an Incan Goddess. The Damiana Margarita is very popular in the Los Cabos area of Mexico and Mexican margarita folklore says that the very first margarita ever made was made with Damiana Liqueur (not that silly French liqueur).

[Edited on 10-25-2010 by David K]

TMW - 10-25-2010 at 08:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Santiago
Thanks guys.
Here's the explanation I got from the shop:
Saltwater got into the axle, then heated up to boiling causing pressure to build, blowing out the seals and coating the shoes and drums with oil. The drums, for liability reasons, can not be turned and cleaned because the oil has penetrated the metal and the oil will eventually come out and cause the shoes to become oily. They note on the repair order: "Possible wheelcyl leaking may have damaged master cylinder".
I will take all this info to a real brake shop and see if I can get any more info.

FF: What's damiana?

[Edited on 10-25-2010 by Santiago]


I think the part about oil into the drums is BS. When a rotor or drum is turned it is to get the brake shoe material off it. I would go to another shop next time. I think the master cylinder probably just went out. Maybe chevy has a bulletin on it. A master cylinder should last the normal life of the vehicle or between 100,000 to 200,000 miles. I've only had 1 master cylinder go out on all the vehicles I've ever owned.

bajabass - 10-25-2010 at 08:26 AM

New shoes, drums, cylinders, hardware, axle seals, fresh gear oil, and a master cylinder, that total does not seem out of line. These parts may be cheaper at Pep Boys or Kragen, but quality parts and labor cost ya. The low pedal upon leaving condemns the shop to me! They probably over-bled the system trying to get the pedal back after replacing the cylinders. You must not mash the pedal into the floor when bleeding. The pistons and seals in the M/C travel into ranges of the bore that they never see under normal use. Contamination and debris, corrosion in those untraveled areas destroy the seals, fluid leaks out the back, or between the primary and secondary seals, allowing the fluid to go from one side to the other, or an internal bypass condition. If you have ever been sitting at a signal, and the brake pedal slowly sinks to the floor, a perfect example. I have personally cleaned hundreds of drums and rotors soaked in gear oil and brake fluid. A thorough bath in the solvent tank, re-machine on the lathe, sand with 120 grit emery cloth, and clean with Brake Clean. Of course there is more profit in selling new ones!For the shop to deliver the car with poor or no brakes after that much work is unacceptable in my book! Those brakes are your life, and anyone's that is in your way! Oh, the axle vent will release water vapor as well as oil vapor. I would have liked to see the old gear oil for sure. It sounds to me like you were slightly oversold on the drums, and the shop caused the master cylinder failure on their own! I have owned a brake and alignment shop for over 20 years and hear these stories from customers constantly!! :(

bajalearner - 10-25-2010 at 08:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Santiago
Thanks guys.
Here's the explanation I got from the shop:
Saltwater got into the axle, then heated up to boiling causing pressure to build, blowing out the seals and coating the shoes and drums with oil. The drums, for liability reasons, can not be turned and cleaned because the oil has penetrated the metal and the oil will eventually come out and cause the shoes to become oily. They note on the repair order: "Possible wheelcyl leaking may have damaged master cylinder".
I will take all this info to a real brake shop and see if I can get any more info.

Wait a minute...
1. You never got the axle in the water. How did sea water get in?
2. Why would the differential oil get that hot? 212 degrees or higher for salt water? It is just gears turning with an oil bath.
3. Why would pressure build? there's a vent on the top of the differential housing?
4. If all this is true, why did the mechanic not say we must inspect the gears and possibly clean everything inside the differential. Seems like the salt would be a problem there. He didn't take the cover off and inspect the gears?
5. The front pads were gone in a few months...no way Jose. If that could possibly happen, wouldn't the front discs be burned or warped from heat? You did not say there was metal to metal on the rear shoes. So the rear brakes were still working. If the leaking
6. So a wheel cylinder may have leaked. What damage would that cause a master cylinder?
7. Steel saturated with oil? They have solvents for cleaning oil. Any why then not turn the drums which would remove a layer of metal?

I think think the mechanic's mortgage or alimony or girlfriend needed to be paid when you happened to roll up. This is classic. But you get it from the dealer's too. It is just wrapped up in fancier packaging before they stick it to you. I do not trust any of them with my cars. If I have to take my cars in, I get an estimate and leave. I try to do the repairs myself if I can. If not I talk to other people and the problem always dwindles down the a sensible task. Sorry that does not make you feel better :(

Now, can we talk about lawyers or the IRS????

monoloco - 10-25-2010 at 12:17 PM

I'm guessing the boat payment was due.

Your got riped.

mcfez - 10-25-2010 at 12:34 PM

I had the same issues years ago. I complained...and got my money back. Little effort involved doing the process. I got this 4 u from the net:

HOW TO FIGHT BACK

a) If a mechanic does unauthorized repairs, fails to complete repairs when promised, uses unauthorized
parts, or engages in other less-than-ethical behavior, you may not be required to pay for those repairs.
However, the mechanic may practically hold your vehicle hostage until you pay. Therefore, you may wish
to pay for the repairs by credit card and then ask your credit card company or bank to assist you in resolving
the dispute.

b) In these and similar cases, you should also file a complaint with:

Bureau of Automotive Repair
10240 Systems Parkway
Sacramento, CA 95827
(800) 952-5210

c) Other organizations available to assist you with auto repair problems include the following:

Consumers for Auto Reliability and Safety
1500 W. El Camino Ave. Suite 419
Sacramento, CA 95833-1945
(916) 920-5464

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
Automotive Safety Hotline
400 7th Street SW
Washington, DC 20590
San Francisco Regional Office (415) 744-3089
Toll free (800) 424-9393

Trueheart - 10-25-2010 at 01:05 PM

Sanitago:

Lots of good info contained in the responses to your situation. I was particularly drawn to that of bajabass, as he has owned a brake shop for 20 years. I would very much trust what he is telling you. Just too much experience to ignore, and as a nomad, he is shooting straight with you.

Makes me think about doing that trailer tongue thing larryC suggests in the future, and trying to avoid this problem altogether.

bajabass - 10-25-2010 at 01:28 PM

Thanks Trueheart! Only the straight poop here! If I could allow myself to pull the crap I hear about, I'd have a lot more money. I like being able to look in the mirror without puking. :yes:
Santiago, if they mislead you in any way, or you did not verbally approve the additional repair amounts, contact the BAR! You should also have been given a signed estimate before work began, no ups, no extras, without YOUR approval. Many consumers do not know this.
Oh, and by all means, find a new shop! One that will not give you back a truck with no brakes, after a 1k brake job!! :fire:

Bob and Susan - 10-25-2010 at 01:29 PM

i agree...

until i actually lived on the salt...
i NEVER realized what it does to the cars and trucks

salt water is BAD!!!

the price...probably correct for a "correct" repair job

bajabass - 10-25-2010 at 01:33 PM

Santiago, if you are ever driving thru Orange County, stop by and I will check their work. Brake inspections are free to all! :)

fishingmako - 10-25-2010 at 04:17 PM

Santiago,

Back to my question, Why, why would this shop ask you to come back on a Sunday to bleed the brakes, I am really confused is he open on Sunday's? and why as dangerous as this was want you to drive home and come back, just makes utterly no sence.

bajabass - 10-25-2010 at 05:30 PM

I can venture a guess. They don't care! Came in with a "click", but the brakes worked. $1600 later, click, and no brakes! Hey, the shop owner's car stops, so what is the problem???? Stories like this infuriate me to no end!:mad:

Doug/Vamonos - 10-27-2010 at 11:41 AM

Hi Santiago. That really sucks. But I have one small recommendation and I want to say this in a really nice way and not sound preachy because I want to keep you as an amigo:biggrin:. Last month I was on the beach playing with my boat while you were loading yours and I noticed how far back you went down the ramp. Your axles looked like they were in the water and your exhaust was bubbling out. You go back pretty far when launching and sliding your boat off, too. I would agree with Bob and Susan that there was plenty of opportunity for salt water to get into your brakes, hub, and possibly into your axle and I agree it doesn't take much to create problems. Do this a couple times each trip and I would eventually expect brake issues, atleast with the calipers, drums, discs, or bearings. Just take a look at Doc's Bronco! And if the salt water does get past the seals and into the axle then that would not be good, especially when you are towing a load in Baja because your diff will get very hot and need good lubrication. I'm always careful not to back up so far that my tires get wet because, sure enough, a wave will come and splash up higher on the shore and get my exhaust or wheels in the process. And when I get home I always hose off the undercarriage really good because no matter how hard I try I know salt and sand got all over it. But none of that would impact your master cylinder unless the mechanic did something during the job to screw it up. And now that you have b-tchin' new brakes I would be careful about backing too far down. I watched a guy in camp a year or so ago who had a nice truck and he half submerged the dang thing every time he launched or retrieved his boat. I'm not kidding - that thing was a submarine.

Headed down for the races? I am. Probably arriving Weds and leaving for home on Saturday.

comitan - 10-27-2010 at 12:34 PM

I have a chevy astro AWD that I launch my boat with for the last 6 years, I always back in far enough to get the hubs and exhaust bubbling and never wash anything off. Early this year I had the brakes redone they just turned the drums and replaced the shoes I could see no problems and yes I was worried. Just lucky I guess.

Bob and Susan - 10-27-2010 at 12:37 PM

i used to replace my boat brakes EVERY season

it was horrible

the disk brakes really helped

yup you were "lucky"

edir spelling...again

[Edited on 10-27-2010 by Bob and Susan]

durrelllrobert - 10-28-2010 at 09:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Can you examine the original master cylinder for worn seals or internal corrosion? If not, can you take it to a knowledgable mechanic and have him evaluate it?

did they give you back the parts they "replaced":?::?:
did they even show them to you :?::?: can I take advantage of you next time :lol::lol:

Santiago - 11-14-2010 at 10:53 AM

Bump - see edit on first post for results on 'investigation'

Skipjack Joe - 11-14-2010 at 11:32 AM

I thought Doug/Vamonos suggestions really made sense, even if they're not directly related to your problem this time.

msteve1014 - 11-14-2010 at 04:33 PM

Bajabass's explanation of the master cylinder failure is right on in my experience. I am very surprised that none of the other shops would back that up.