BajaNomad - Turtle egg harvesting. Wrong!

Turtle egg harvesting. Wrong!

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BajaWarrior - 10-31-2010 at 10:03 AM

A friend of mine sent me this, what a shame...

bajario - 10-31-2010 at 10:07 AM

Where is this?

I'm going to ask because I have no clue on Turtle eggs.

1. Could they possibly be gathering them to harvest for a better survival rate and release them into the wild when they can survive w/o predators. Or are they the predators and will eat the eggs?

David K - 10-31-2010 at 10:37 AM

Location? South Pacific Islands? Are they 'endangered' there?

Sallysouth - 10-31-2010 at 10:38 AM

I'll take a wild guess and say the later question is the answer.They should all be jailed and fined.Awful!!It really doesn't look like Baja tho...maybe the mainland?

BajaWarrior - 10-31-2010 at 10:46 AM

Costa Rica, and yes, they sell them.

toneart - 10-31-2010 at 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaWarrior
Costa Rica, and yes, they sell them.

I don't think this is Costa Rica.Turtles are protected by the government. The turtle laying beaches are Federally Protected Zones and the only way you can get on the beach is to pay and be escorted by uniformed guides.

I am confused. Are the turtles in the photo all dead? To my knowledge they only come in to lay eggs at night. They will not come in during daylight. They will not come in at night either if there are any lights at all. That includes houses and flashlights.

If it is in Costa Rica, the turtles are probably Olive Ridley. They are not big enough to be Giant Leatherbacks. It would either be Playa Grande on the Guanacaste Coast, or on the Caribbean side.

The Olive Ridley come in on the Caribbean side near the city of Limon. That population is more black than Latino. The people in the photo are clearly Latino.

Just a few poachers are successful, during the night, but mostly they are run off by the uniformed guards. Then there are raccoons that also dig up the turtle eggs.

Again, these photos do not make sense to me. How can this be happening in broad daylight? What are the people really doing? They don't look like they are being sneaky. They look pretty relaxed. If they are poaching eggs, why not take the turtles too?

ELINVESTIG8R - 10-31-2010 at 11:35 AM

They may be taking them to a hatchery so they are not harvested by poachers and others.

mcfez - 10-31-2010 at 11:39 AM

The literacy rate in Costa Rica is 94.9%, one of the highest in the world. Boy......fooled me. Where the hell is Green Peace?

BajaWarrior - 10-31-2010 at 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaWarrior
Costa Rica, and yes, they sell them.

This is the only information I have on this, so one could put any text he wanted along with these photos.

I too don't want to believe that this would occur in this day and age.

For what its worth

flyfishinPam - 10-31-2010 at 12:04 PM

http://lapamelareinadepesca.wordpress.com/2010/05/30/do-you-...

critical thinking.... it ain't for everyone!

ELINVESTIG8R - 10-31-2010 at 12:07 PM

Thanks Pam!

I'M GLAD THERE IS NO NEED FOR MY SECRET WEAPON!

ELINVESTIG8R - 10-31-2010 at 12:11 PM

DianaT - 10-31-2010 at 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
http://lapamelareinadepesca.wordpress.com/2010/05/30/do-you-...

critical thinking.... it ain't for everyone!

Worth a lot! Thanks---good reading.

mcfez - 10-31-2010 at 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
http://lapamelareinadepesca.wordpress.com/2010/05/30/do-you-...

critical thinking.... it ain't for everyone!

I couldnt watch the third video. Sic

It's real amazing how the highest intelligent life form can F*** up this planet of ours. We're just primates really.

flyfishinPam - 10-31-2010 at 12:21 PM

skeet I am now extremely critical of NGO's after seeing them here from the inside and how they are having an affect of the ways we live our lives here. It was a very painful realization that I am still going through but I assure you I am NOT encouraging donations to NGO's, just the opposite.

A FORMER POST OF MINE

ELINVESTIG8R - 10-31-2010 at 12:24 PM

All I know is that back in the olden days of Baja 1967-1968 the poor sea turtle I saw butchered in San Felipe was cut from its shell alive and was literally hacked into pieces while still squirming and flailing its legs and head. I swear I even heard the poor thing scream. The butcher did not even have the decency to kill it first. It was a horrifying sight to behold and I never ever watched one be slaughtered again much less eat one. I had nightmares for a long time after that.

flyfishinPam - 10-31-2010 at 12:30 PM

I was offered sea turtle a few times but turned it down. Tried the eggs but don't really like the flavour. I kill animals and eat them but believe that they should not suffer prior to being killed or during the killing and that they should be dressed out only after their life has left them. I used to not be able to take a creature's life but have since realized that killing for food and survival is part of life. maybe I am digressing

mcfez - 10-31-2010 at 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
I was offered sea turtle a few times but turned it down. Tried the eggs but don't really like the flavour. I kill animals and eat them but believe that they should not suffer prior to being killed or during the killing and that they should be dressed out only after their life has left them. I used to not be able to take a creature's life but have since realized that killing for food and survival is part of life. maybe I am digressing

Funny....I never had a issue killing for food or buying killed. Since the farm here.....getting to know animals on a daily routine....one notices the personalities of the animals. Turkeys especially. Yes...I said turkeys. I've had goats, chickens and turkeys killed by stray dogs and coyotes. Makes ya change the ol thought pattern.Felt very bad about my Turkeys death. My wife has already turn to Vegetarianism. Me.....very hard to see kills now....even the fish I catch!

Cypress - 10-31-2010 at 12:46 PM

mcfez, Turkeys! A good book about 'em, "Illumination in the Flatwoods" by Joe Hutto. Have as many as twenty wild ones that visit spring and fall. Very interesting birds. :bounce:

baitcast - 10-31-2010 at 01:14 PM

In the early 60,s on special occasions,my daughters birthday and such we would have a turtle feed at the Fernandez place,PaPa it seemed would always have atleast one in camp when we stopped in for our annual vacation.

When watching the first time sent my daughters running,they always cut the throats first then one of the kids in camp would drink from the cut,when I asked what it tasted like he would say very good with blood running down his chest and it made him very strong :rolleyes:

looked a little like a vampire.

They were eating them long before we showed up and won,t be stopping any time soon,its easy to feel sorry for the things but stop in at a beef processing plant and watch how they get the job done there!!!!!

Just be happy your at the top of the food chain.
Rob

Cypress - 10-31-2010 at 02:03 PM

There's no excuse for eating, wearing, or using any part of an endangered species.

Trying to justify any aspect of utilizing an endangered species for food etc.? Give it some thought.

I Second That!

Bajahowodd - 10-31-2010 at 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
There's no excuse for eating, wearing, or using any part of an endangered species.

Trying to justify any aspect of utilizing an endangered species for food etc.? Give it some thought.

baitcast - 10-31-2010 at 02:25 PM

I quit eating them 50 years ago I,m just telling you like it is,try telling those folks and they will tell you to stick it most likely.
Rob

stevelaubly - 10-31-2010 at 02:41 PM

I know this was in Costa Rica...On the Pacific Coast near Nosara Point. I have seen it. It is illegal, but there is no authority around the areas when needed. The Costa Ricans believe the turtle eggs are a type of aphrodisiac and they sell them to the bars where they serve them with beer and whiskey.
These are the Leatherbacks.

baitcast - 10-31-2010 at 02:45 PM

The last few times you boys were down did you try to talk those folks out of eating them or did you think they didn,t partake of one of their favorite meals,they might not eat them in front of you but trust me

Rob

BMG - 10-31-2010 at 03:16 PM

According to Snopes.

baitcast - 10-31-2010 at 03:33 PM

Well there you are Costa Rica,Baja,where ever its been going on for generations,all the b-tching and moaning will do no good until the people finally get it in THEIR heads to stop until then relax :lol:

Rob

Cypress - 10-31-2010 at 04:41 PM

Skeet/Loreto, It is what it is. Numbers don't lie. Any wild buffalo roaming around your neighborhood? Horses? Wolves? Last time you saw any free-roaming Comanche? Apache? Kiowa?

Sidamone - 10-31-2010 at 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Cypress:
What you fail to see is that People do not underastand what is being put forth by some of these Nuts.

Ask any of them to name an Endergered Species and see what is the Answer.

It is getting to were there is nothing that is true anymore only what the Pretender wants you to believe.

All the Bull Puckey about Coral Reefs, then did you see the Photos from Ken Bondy??

Life is changing.

Would you like me to name some endangered species for you? I can fare better than the teenagers at your mall, shall I give it a try?

woody with a view - 10-31-2010 at 05:18 PM

while in Barra de Navidad on the mainland in about 1986 i bought a bottle of turtle lotion for the skin. it was good stuff! don't hate me cuz my skin is so soft, still! :saint:

i wouldn't do the same now.....

baitcast - 10-31-2010 at 05:19 PM

:lol:

baitcast - 10-31-2010 at 05:29 PM

Try telling these folks to give up their comida for you :lol:

My daughters at PaPa,s table for a turtle meal in the 60,s.
Rob

Cypress - 10-31-2010 at 06:16 PM

Skeet/Loreto, I live in north Idaho. We have cougar, wolves and bear. They keep the deer and elk populations under control. I do my share of hunting. Regarding the fish populations in the Sea of Cortez, there's over 800 miles of coastline, reefs, etc., lets be thankful that a skilled fisherman can still find some fish to catch. My children? Only One. She's conservative, married and doing well. I don't really give a flying "F" whether you believe me or not. Auodad sheep? They'd last about a week up in this country.

Cypress - 10-31-2010 at 06:22 PM

Skeet/Loreto, The moose population is on the decline, possibly due to wolf predation or over hunting. Maybe the fish and game could introduce some of those Auodad sheep?

ramuma53 - 11-1-2010 at 12:32 AM

I do not know where these photos were taken exactly, but last year there were news in Mexico city about an Federal empoyee, who was trying to stop something like the photos situation in Oaxaca, on the Pacific coast and he was killed by the people who were taking the eggs to sell at the local market, then the federal government went in force to stop it, but it was an every day sight like that. :fire:

I know it was a custon to eat sea turtle eggs, but we are driving them to extintion, we are so many that we can endanger any animal we start eating as a custom.
Only information and applied penalties can work to stop this and it is not only the government work, because we know some of the officials who are there to protect the turtles, are the ones who promote the crime to get bribes and only if people complain about those acts, they will stop.

shari - 11-1-2010 at 08:38 AM

muchas gracias Pam for the information you posted and the Snopes article...so very interesting. I fing the Costa Rica model very interesting as it provides some economic & cultural license to locals.

I have lived areas where biosphere reserves have been established and seen locals "crushed" by insensitive, draconian laws drawn up in big cities by people who had never even been to the areas...virtually destroying their access to traditional food sources and incomes.

I quite like the compromise in the Costa Rica model. I fully support conservation measures for endangered species & areas but would like to see local customs taken into consideration.

One example in BC canada was in the herring roe fishery...now I believe only local native bands can harvest the roe and under certain conditions and quotas but at least they have access to this traditional food.

I would like to believe that something like this could be applied to the turtle debate. As mentioned coastal people have eaten turtle forever and continue to do so...but jailing a grandmother for eating a stew that fed her whole clan on a feast occasion just seems wrong to me. If only in a perfect world, one turle per fishing family per year or something like that could be allowed would be nice....I know it opens up alot of problems of how to control it, monitor it etc...I'm just sayin...it would be nice for them to have their traditional feast without being a criminal. If you sent turtle eaters to jail...these coastal towns would be pretty near empty.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-1-2010 at 09:02 AM

Ramuma:

What difference does it make????

wilderone - 11-1-2010 at 09:12 AM

From the film:
"In a place where there is little opportunity to make a living like along la Costa Chica, no tourism, no industry, and few opportunities for kids to go to school, one learns to live from the land or one migrates away. Harvesting sea turtle eggs and sea turtles for their meat has been a tradition for thousands of years. Just because we think sea turtles are special and cute shouldn’t give us the right to try to save them while taking away something that has always belonged to the people."

This is the problem. The concept of trying to preserve a species doesn't have a whit to do with whether anyone thinks they're special and cute. The residents of Costa Chica will eventually have no turtles or eggs if they continue to drive those turtles to extinction. And contrary to the notion that the turtles "belong[] to the people" - that is just wrong. The turtles belong to our earth and are interconnected to other life on earth, and all of us on earth are stewards of its creatures in order that our earth will be able to sustain us. That the turtles must nest on that beach has no bearing on whether or not the turtles are Mexican property. Costa Chica is a pinpoint on our planet, but is essential to the life of the turtle - and has been for more years than Costa Chica came into existence and borders of countries were determined. Enter humanity and its ignorance and arrogance; resultant folly, i.e., extinction of animal species. And do you think the residents of Costa Chica will find something else to eat after the turtles are gone? Or will they move on, like nomadic Maya, build a new village, plunder the natural resources in the same manner, etc., and disappear? Newer research blames the fall of the Mayan empire on natural resource depletion. Can we nothing from the past?
PS: I doubt whether such harvesting and selling of eggs has been a tradition for thousands of years. Possibly subsistence for a small population which ensured a continuum of turtles and eggs for future generations. But not to the extent that is happening now. Disaster awaits.

baitcast - 11-1-2010 at 12:26 PM

THX Shari said far better than I but with the same intent.
Rob

Lee - 11-1-2010 at 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaWarrior
Costa Rica, and yes, they sell them.

I don't think this is Costa Rica.Turtles are protected by the government.

I've been in CR during turtle season and the locals will tell you poachers come in and dig up the eggs. Just the way it is down there.

bajafam - 11-1-2010 at 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Cypress:

What difference does it Make if all the Moose are Gone??

Skeet

Do you really believe this, Skeet? Every time a creature is wiped from the surface of our planet, it damages the entire eco-system. That being said, there is a natural system of checks and balances. Every creature needs to eat, and most creatures are on the menu. It is a proven fact that when certain creatures are being abolished, they will produce more offspring to make up for it. Coyotes do this....and I know that turtles lay a massive amount of eggs in preparation for the inevitable fate of the baby turtles, if they ever even hatch. The percentage of hatchlings that make it to the sea is disparaging. However, if there were no predators, there would be massive amounts of turtles and that would upset the balance.
We have a sea documentary by a Japanese oceanographer Mr. Nagoto and in it, he visits a remote island where the tradition is to gather turtle eggs for a specific time period after they have been layed. They are only allowed to do it for so many hours each time. The people know that the majority of the turtle eggs will be ravaged by predators, so they take some, leave some for the predators, and then they protect some. It is a very interesting piece, showing a "tradition" that to us is appalling, but to them is a way of life.

Osprey - 11-1-2010 at 03:41 PM

After I was lucky enough to be a very small part of the turtle conservation effort on East Cape, seeing how the nursery system works, I'm convinced it would work in Costa Rica and around the world. I'm sure turtle groups are way ahead of me on this but for example, in CR the government, with the help of turtle groups could designate a part of the beach as a nursery, transplant 1/3 of the nests/eggs for controlled release 45 days hence. That would leave plenty of food for the natives, insure some positive future for the next generation of surviving leatherbacks.

bajafam - 11-1-2010 at 03:54 PM

Now that, Osprey, sounds like a great idea!

mtgoat666 - 11-1-2010 at 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
bajafam;

It does not make any difference what I might beleive! Do you not understand that the Endangered Specice Fiasco does not affect the people except in a Negative way such as taking away their Income and Food.

What does the Moose have to do with our daily lives or Food?? Please Answer this Question.

I am not for killing just for the fun of it, I consume all the fish I take or give it to my Mexicano Friends.

They also share with me at least once a year a Turtle, if the time is right.

What difference has the "Snail Darter" had on your Life.????

Please answer the Questions the best you can. I really want to know what affect Endangered Species Has???

Skeet

Skeet,
I can't think of anything useful a Texan has ever done, so seems we won't shed a tear if we drive you extinct. I would rather have moose and snail darters than texans. I do think the english language would be improved if we get rid of Texans.
proof of california eco liberal supremacy is the giants stomping rangers :lol:

bajafam - 11-1-2010 at 04:07 PM

well, Skeet, I have to say that I am affected, as are my children and future generations in my family, by not having the opportunity to see these creatures alive. And you truly think it's okay to deplete a species based solely on the fact that PEOPLE must make money and eat what they please?
I am glad that you do not kill just to kill, but some do.

And FTR, if there were no moose, there would be a large part of many creatures natural food source missing ~ wolves, bears, cougars eat these giant creatures. If they were gone, then those predators would be forced to look elsewhere for food...coming closer to our homes.
Also, people do eat moose, so again, the loss of them would be devastating to such communities. The natural food source of the moose is vegetation, and without them, such vegetation would run rampant, causing who knows what kind of harm.

So, yeah, the moose is important.

And the snail darter, well, I personally am, at this moment, unable to relate it's plight directly to my life. But, give me a little more time to examine that particular creature and I'll get back to you!

toneart - 11-1-2010 at 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaWarrior
Costa Rica, and yes, they sell them.

I don't think this is Costa Rica.Turtles are protected by the government.

I've been in CR during turtle season and the locals will tell you poachers come in and dig up the eggs. Just the way it is down there.

Lee,

My experience in Costa Rica was in the two areas that I mentioned: Playa Grande, just north of Tamarindo, and in the Mangrove estuaries just north of Limon, on the Caribbean Coast.

While at Playa Grande, the Leatherback Turtle egg laying and hatchings were controlled and protected by the Government. There was also a University group that had been tagging and monitoring them for years. I really don't think poaching was going on there.

I was not aware of Costa Chica, where apparently the photos were taken. In what area did you hear that poaching was going on?

mtgoat666 - 11-1-2010 at 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Well I now do not have to have an Answer as you Begging for Donations tells the who;le Story.

I feel sorry for those who have to Beg for Money>

This Ole Texas Boy has always workde and produced income for his Family with out resorting to Begging for donations.

Bajafam. Yopu will never be as good as a Texan!!

Tempurence, Prudence, Foritude, and Justice/ Try it you may be able to become a "Good Person" instead of a Begger!!

skeet,
you once were amusing. now you are nasty. i now rank you vile category (with mrbillm and gull). dude, wtf happened to you?

Cypress - 11-1-2010 at 05:46 PM

Moose is downright tasty, too bad there aren't more of 'em. Even though there numbers have decreased they are not endangered. The turtles are endangered and their numbers are decreasing. Don't think I'd brag about eating an endangered species.

vandy - 11-1-2010 at 06:01 PM

Here is an interesting article about LEGAL turtle eggs in Costa Rica.
http://www.nicoyapeninsula.com/ostional/

bajafam - 11-1-2010 at 06:14 PM

funny, Skeet, as we just had a nice banter in the sea lion thread. It's a shame that you turn to insult because I answered the questions you asked, but apparently you don't care for the answers?

FTR, I never said anything bad about Texas. That was goat...

And, the last time I checked, my "begging" as you referred to it was to fund items to bring to families...gosh, I hope that the Susan Komen Foundation, March of Dimes, Jerry's Kids, and the like don't get wind that asking for donations is begging, and that in order to be a good person you cannot ask for help. Those inconsiderate low lifes!!

The donations are not for me...my husband does a fine job bringing in an income to support his family, thank you. If you would refer to my thread in the My Baja Website area, under Mama on a Mission, you may decide to eat your words, but in the meantime....

Gee, Skeet, yous use such beeg wordz I best look dem up in my word book thingy....as I is butz a lowly English teecher and stay at home mama.

Tempurence? If you meant temperance ~ –noun
1.moderation or self-restraint in action, statement, etc.; self-control.
2.habitual moderation in the indulgence of a natural appetite or passion, esp. in the use of alcoholic liquors.
3.total abstinence from alcoholic liquors.
Not sure how that applies here? But, I will drink in moderation and attempt to control myself

Prudence ~ –noun
1.the quality or fact of being prudent.
2.caution with regard to practical matters; discretion.
3.regard for one's own interests.
4.provident care in the management of resources; economy; frugality.
Okay, so asking for help for others isn't discreet? I just figured it was for Baja families so Baja Nomads may want to lend a hand. And, by doing so, I'm hoping to aid in care of the management of those families resources, economy and frugality. So, prudence, check, got it.

Foritude, which I think you meant, fortitude ~ –noun
mental and emotional strength in facing difficulty, adversity, danger, or temptation courageously.
Hmmm... pretty sure I have that as well, especially in this situation, where I am doing something for others while so many people tell me it's impossible. So, fortitude, check, got that too.

And that last one, wow, you really got me there...
Justice ~ –noun
1.the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.
2.rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice.
3.the moral principle determining just conduct.
4.conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment.
5.the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
I never claimed to be righteous, but I am certainly doing my best to uphold a moral standard. So, perhaps you could enlighten me on how to better use your definition of justice in my daily life?

So, I guess I should try harder to be a good person?
A secular person who values virtue might define a “good person” as someone who:

•Loves their family (I love mine more than anything)
•Looks out for their neighbors (I do this every day, even with the one I don't really like so much ~ still help him out when he needs it.
•Donates to charity (constantly...and um, I run a charity, so....)
•Volunteers their time (I'm a stay at home mom, so all my time is volunteeered. I also give many hours to my charity, as well as spending time at the Humane Society, etc.)
•Puts in an honest day’s work (well, I guess that depends on your definition...but I work 24/7 providing a caring environment for my family...the pay is crap, but the rewards are many.)

As for turtles...sorry to hijack, folks, but no, I probably wouldn't eat them...unless I was in a situation where it would truly be insulting to my host and I knew that they were harvested sustainably. But I also wouldn't throw Abuela in jail for feeding her family one, either.

[Edited on 11-2-2010 by bajafam]

[Edited on 11-2-2010 by bajafam]

Bajatripper - 11-1-2010 at 09:05 PM

Wasn't Skeet begging, in a manner of speaking, for us to bring jackets down to the poor kids working in the fields outside of CC a while back?
Or is begging something else that is only bad when liberals engage in it?

If the shoe fits...

toneart - 11-1-2010 at 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandy
Here is an interesting article about LEGAL turtle eggs in Costa Rica.
http://www.nicoyapeninsula.com/ostional/

Thank you Vandy! This explains the photos that apparently showed legal, conservation poaching. According to the article it is allowed for the first two days of the turtles' arrival...only on this beach.

What I said before about the other turtle beaches and how the government protects them still rings true for me. I witnessed it several times and nobody there talked about poaching in those areas. I feel better now, as I was getting a little worried; not only for the turtles, but also for what I believed to be true.

Skeet-
Ignorance sometimes creates a situation for amusement. We just consider the source and the source is consistent. Of course, you are free to continue displaying your ignorance. Unfortunately, your statements have recently become more mean spirited towards good Nomad individuals and are NOT amusing!

bajafam - 11-1-2010 at 09:14 PM

thanks toneart...and this is what the documentary with Mr. Nogato was talking about...the arribada....it is a very interesting segment of the movie...I'll have to see if I can find a YouTube clip.

wilderone - 11-2-2010 at 08:23 AM

I know this isn't about moose or elk, but to respond to Skeet's comment: "Do you not understand that the Endangered Specice Fiasco does not affect the people except in a Negative way such as taking away their Income and Food."
What an absolutely self-centered way of looking at the world. All of Earth's life, in whatever form, are interconnected to create a balance, for humankind's well being, the totality of which we don't even understand. One village has no right to deplete the earth of one of its creatures. I just read that because of the introduction of the wolf in Yellowstone, its overall ecology improved dramatically. Excerpt: "... aspen and willow were dying off during the seven decades the [wolves] were absent and the elk population boomed. When the wolves came back in 1995, the elk could no longer lazily chew away all the aspen and willow chutes. Plants and trees rebounded, songbird numbers grew, and beaver colonies boomed." Now please don't tell me that because you can't eat songbirds, wolves, beavers and aspen that those living things are worthless to humans (regardless that that may be the case in your sorry world).
If the people who are up in arms because their turtles are being protected from their cooking pots, I would suggest they get off their collective arses and solve their food problem. 98% of the world (or close) do not rely on turtles as a food source, so they need to get a clue from the rest of world and finally learn how to feed themselves, and allow the turtles their place on earth.
PS: Some of the more general environmental battles are fought within the parameters of the legislation because that is the only weapon with which to wage the fight. Something like the snail darter may only be the tool used to achieve a greater purpose - like preserving open space or stopping oil company intrusion on public land. Sometimes the apparent disappearance of a species is discovered to be linked to pollution of its habitat and serves as a borometer of the quality of that habitat, so the battle waged to save the particular creature affected is really a battle to clean up a waterway, or stop industry pollution. A healthy earth can only benefit humankind.

ramuma53 - 11-2-2010 at 10:24 AM

We have to take something in to consideration when we accept something as a routine or customary food.
Humanity numbers are so great and climbing so fast, we can upset a balance too fast sending species to oblivion.
Of course if you have a very educated people that had long time experience and who respect authority, you have control and that is why it works in the pacific islands and may work on Costa Rica and surely will work on North Europe, but most of the now endangered species are in big population mostly ignorant countries, like Mexico.
Just ask the fisherman in Popotla or El Campto in Rosarito Baja, the officials who are in charge of protecting the species, are the ones who talk to them, asking them to violate the law, get money and pay some bribe, no limits established.
We found there, where the abalone has banished and lobster is going the same way, that you need normal people as nature inspectors, who have the courage to denounce the official inspectors and people who align with them and of course forums to denounce.
Normal people get courage only when they are educated to know the real consequences of those against nature acts, then they even put themselves in jeopardy to protect nature, like the poor official who tried to stop the butchering in Oaxaca, yes it was too much, but he had denounced the acts a lot of times to authority and nobody listened to him, until he got too desperate and acted that way, because everybody was in the business, including the local authorities who were claiming it was a customary act.
Yes a population can have its customs, but not when the custom upsets nature; a small population can control their young and business people through wisdom, but in large populations, people hide behind customs to abuse nature; they say it is a custom to eat it, then they get every animal or egg to sell to the big city insatiable appetite and that is the problem that need control.
The problem is not a custom, but people who abuse the custom to get profit and those are the individuals that need denouncing, first to local authorities who usually are in the business, then up and up until the help cry is heard, even if it is the UN.

wessongroup - 11-2-2010 at 10:36 AM

Good to see such a balanced view on environmental considerations .... thanks to all... it all helps...

ramuma53 - 11-2-2010 at 05:08 PM

Just look about what we are talking about
Matan tortugas , las hacen botas
Por Jorge Escalante

REFORMA

(15 Enero 2004)

REFORMA / Guanajuato

LEÓN.- La piel de las tortugas masacradas en las costas de Guerrero termina como botas en las calles de León.

En la llamada Zona Piel, el centro de venta de calzado más grande de Guanajuato, se pueden conseguir artículos de piel de procedencia ilegal, sin la intervención de las autoridades.

Para conocer la mecánica de la venta ilegal, un reportero de REFORMA adquirió un par de botas de caguama en la zapatería David King Boots, ubicada en la calle Iguala 221, local 8.

Aunque no están en exhibición, las botas de caguama se cotizan entre 850 y mil 200 pesos, dependiendo de su acabado, mientras que las de oso hormiguero cuestan hasta 5 mil pesos.

En la zapatería Boots Santana, ubicada en el tianguis Al-Rey, local 2, se muestran las botas de piel prohibida a petición del cliente.

"En la mayor parte de los negocios establecidos de León, principalmente donde se venden botas, existen productos elaborados con pieles prohibidas, casi todos le entran al negocio, que es más productivo por ser ilegal", reveló Agustín López, comerciante en Zona Piel.

De acuerdo con Marcos, un vendedor de la empresa David King Boots, la piel de tortuga que llega a León proviene de Guerrero y Oaxaca.

"Lo que nos venden de la tortuga son sus patas (aletas), las delanteras son más baratas que las traseras. La patas delanteras se cotizan entre 250 y 270 pesos, las traseras, de donde se obtiene más piel, entre 300 y 330 pesos", explicó Marcos.

En los últimos tres meses, más de 500 tortugas fueron masacradas en el municipio de Petatlán, Guerrero. Grupos ecologistas responsabilizan al grupo armado llamado "Los Nejos".

REFORMA entregó las botas a la Profepa, donde se buscó al delegado estatal Refugio Camarillo Salas, quien estaba ausente. El producto quedó bajo resguardo de esa dependencia.
http://www.tortugamarina.com/noticias_reforma_1152004-3.html
also you can check thisone

LA SEGOB PROMUEVE CONSUMO DE CAGUAMA
EL SUDCALIFORNIANO
GUSTAVO ALONSO ALVAREZ
LA PAZ, BCS (OEM).-La Secretaría de Gobernación por medio de su página en internet
e-local promueve como atractivos gastronómicos de La Paz y Los Cabos platillos de
caguama, especie en peligro de extinción, cuya pesca y consumo está prohibida en el
país, la publicación en la red cita que las “aletas de caguama rellenas que se
consideran un platillo único en el arte culinario del país”, otros platillos que pondera
como atractivos son la sopa de caguama, “el pecho de caguama estilo marinero” y por
otra parte “la machaca de venado en tortillas de harina”.
Apenas ayer la delegación de la PROFEPA en BCS hizo un llamado público para evitar el
consumo de caguama (tortuga verde o phillus), y para que denuncien a quienes
consumen esta especie, protegida por la NOM059, pues la población sigue a la baja por
su pesca ilegal, castigada con cárcel y fuertes multas.
De forma contradictoria la Secretaría de Gobernación a través de su página e-local,
presenta un producto llamado “Enciclopedia de los municipios de México”, por medio
del cual pretende fomentar el conocimiento de las características y atractivos de cada
municipio del país, sin embargo en la gastronomía local, los platillos de caguama y
venado, otra especie protegida, saltan a la vista.
La dirección es: www.e-local.gob.mx, en la cual da clic en el link “Enciclopedia de los
municipios de México”, selecciona BCS y por municipios puede recorrer las
características y atractivos. En www.e-local.gob.mx/wb2/ELOCAL/EMM_bajasur se
puede entrar directamente.
En La Paz, en el apartado de Atractivos Culturales y Turísticos aparece: “Gastronomía,
Alimentos: sopa de caguama, sopa de aletas de caguama, aletas rellenas, machaca de
carne de res o venado con tortillas de harina, chopito (queso fresco), mantequilla y
chorizo”.
En Los Cabos: “Gastronomía, Alimentos: Burritos de machaca, pecho de caguama; en
todo el estado de Baja California Sur, es mezcla de estilo pastor y marinero; aletas de
caguama rellenas que se considera un platillo único en el arte culinario del país”.
La Enciclopedia de los Municipios de México también se encuentra impresa y es
gratuita para el público, de acuerdo a la página es un sistema de consulta que permite
conocer y adentrarse en las características de los municipios del país, lo califican como
un esfuerzo coordinado entre el Instituto Nacional para el Federalismo y el Desarrollo
Municipal de la Secretaría de Gobernación, actualmente tiene datos de los 2,435
municipios de México.
LA PROFEPA ADVIERTE FALTA DE ÉTICA Y MORAL EN LA SEGOB
El delegado de la PROFEPA en el estado, Julio César Peralta Gallegos, calificó a la
publicación en línea de la SEGOB donde fomentan los platillos hechos basándose en
caguama como una “mala ética y mala moral, que aparezcan esas alusiones para
alentar el consumo de caguama”.
Julio César Peralta Gallegos dijo mientras ellos desalientan estas prácticas es injusto y
una falta de ética que otras dependencias ponderen a los platillos de caguama, por lo
que buscarán que se eliminen las páginas de inmediato.
Por otra parte dijo que se analizará si jurídicamente están incurriendo en una falta los
responsables de la publicación.
http://www.icfj.org/files/baja/8GAA-1.pdf

So you havea an idea of the real problem

BajaRat - 11-5-2010 at 09:56 PM

Nice work, Skeet. Doesn't do much good grabbing your huevos when the great white shark has bitten you off from the mid-section. One important thing that most people should consider: do your homework and save yourself the embarassment of speaking of what you know nothing about. I love opinion, and I welcome controversy but when it has no weight, it floats to the surface like pond scum. Try to add something postive, try to add some sincere criticism, try to add something that would help a cause. I'm sure I'm more of a cynic than you.
Thanks. Lionel

Cypress - 11-6-2010 at 11:56 AM

BajaRat, You have a way with words.

And they are music to my ears! :yes:

Thanks!

Skeet is correct!

flyfishinPam - 11-7-2010 at 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
bajafam;

It does not make any difference what I might beleive! Do you not understand that the Endangered Specice Fiasco does not affect the people except in a Negative way such as taking away their Income and Food.

....

Please answer the Questions the best you can. I really want to know what affect Endangered Species Has???

Skeet

Skeet-

I just checked back here and saw that you have removed your posts. I am disappointed by that but I do understand because of the pressure in many of the posts in this thread.

Folks- skeet is right in the first phrase above the environmental movement and the endangered species and other facades are just that. They are a means for them to make money for themselves while limiting the rights of the people and all in the name of "saving the planet". This is so very wrong.

After a few years of doubting Señor Skeet I realize that I have been brainwashed into believing the environmental movement. I read Silent Spring about 20 years ago. I studied biology, biochemistry, chemistry and physics..yet was still convinced. Looking back especially at my degree in biology, many of my professors (not all) were outright indoctrinating me and my fellow classmates into this movement. Maybe that's what attracted me to the physical sciences and away from the natural sciences...numbers don't lie I preferred and still do prefer black and white results to derive my conclusions.

I have since living here become a part of the local environmental movement from the inside for the first time ever. I was and still am quite dissappointed by what I have seen. Skeet is right. While policy makers are impressed by the people of this movement and the NGO's, I have become unimpressed. I know the science but unfortunately donors and politicos do not. I live with the people and like them, those that are becoming affected by policies based in poor science and money agendas and I am disgusted by this.

I see this as the way that article 33* of the Mexicn constitution is violated-
most here are aware of it, it basically states that foreigners cannot get mixed up in politics of this autonomous nation. But this is the grande loophole of all...large donors offer big grants with serious and specific strings attached....NGO's compete for these grants and carry out vague programs...then eventually they affect the very policies that are supposed to be tabu- moneyed foreigners involve themselves in Mexican politics in an indirect yet oh so effective way. They are determining our laws! These laws are becoming so restrictive that they are hurting the people very much. Those who are hurt the most are the ones who live off the land and the sea.

Its funny that the ones who are most adamant about these newly forming environmental restrictions are the very ones who have the largest environmental impacts themselves!

think about it.

Skeet is not wrong he is RIGHT. It is now obvious to me that he HAS lived with and like the people here. Those of you who have caused him grief enough here who have accused him of not knowing anything about this should reflect upon yourselves and your words. Maybe he just didn't express himself in a convincing way but he is right.

When YOU live with and like the people, learn their language and do without the creature comforts that you have been used to, lived off the land or sea directly and have suffered these ever growing restrictions...then YOU will have my respect in speaking against what I see and say until then...think critically.

*http://info4.juridicas.unam.mx/ijure/fed/9/34.htm?s=

Skeet/Loreto - 11-7-2010 at 09:08 AM

To Pam.

Thank you for your Kind and Thoughtfull and Honest Words.

Sometimes it takes more than a Couple of years living with the Good people, living on the Sea of Cortez, to learn the Truth.

Skeet

flyfishinPam - 11-7-2010 at 09:28 AM

some food for thought:

a critical look at these funders
http://www.activistcash.com/

Peninsular NGO's that are considered successful are funded by big money like-
Walton Family Foundation (wall mart family, becoming a HUGE presence in La Paz and the entire peninsula)
Marisla Foundation (getty oil)
David and Lucille Packard Foundation (founders of HP)

do these entities really have a clue what the people need?

think of the song "Money" by Pink Floyd as you peruse through the websites of the do-gooder NGO's and also notice how VAGUE THEIR INFORMATION IS!

The vagueness is deliberate:
they don't want you to know where their operating money comes from
they don't want you to see how little they actually do
they don't want you to know how they involve themselves directly in GOVERNMENT

Hey aren't these called "Non Governmental Organizations"?
How can they call themselves non governmental when they staff ex-bureaucrats in a revolving door system and collaborate with the government so as to make them "look good" to the people they hurt?
good questions that should be asked and addressed, and more

what I have seen in such a short time behind the scenes of NGO's in Mexico is this:
we the citizens have constitutional and legal rights and if we organize ourselves and learn and pressure our representatives then we will be able to live by these rights and we will be able to direct our representatives and the government entities so that we can directly benefit. its a long process but I have noticed that the people here are persistent and patient. eventually we can apply for these government funds and compete with the NGO's for the same! So what good are these NGO's really? Basically we will make happen what we demand to happen and we can remain independent and strong.

NGO's want us to be dependent on them so that they can continue getting funds which are filtered through their organizations (revolving door staffing, nepotism, control, and TAX SHELTERS for the rich) and in fact very little goes towards the people they claim to help. This is wrong! I have seen this first hand and I am only starting to speak out against it but this needs to be considered.

Don Skeet you are a real man please don't quit posting or be frustrated by those who claim to know but don't really understand it is not their fault. I had to learn for myself I was wrong but I still gotta survive like my compañeros we support each other and its genuine and more powerful.

Skipjack Joe - 11-7-2010 at 09:34 AM

As I read this, Pam, you are left with a choice of poor science and money agendas or no science and money agendas.

It would be helpful if you were more specific about the poor science and who and how money was being used to get around it.

But you and Skeet really don't see eye to eye on this matter. You want good science and no money agendas and Skeet wants to keep science out of it entirely, a sort of common sense self regulation.

flyfishinPam - 11-7-2010 at 09:56 AM

Be specific, well I don't have that much time but you can easily look into this for yourself with google or another search engine and that's just the start. If you really want to investigate then start asking specific questions to your favorite NGO and derive your own conclusions.

I don't want to make anyone's mind up but I did want to point out that Skeet speaks the truth.

I wish to help the people and I am disgusted at how our human classification of endangered species and other fears are used to control how the people live. Mexico has really good laws in place already and if those are enforced then we would have little need for more laws.

If you want to read a scientific paper critically the first thing you should do is find out who funded the study. I worked in research and obviously we couldn't carry out investigations without money, so this is what drives everything. When results are found that are not the desired results for those who are paying for the work, then the study is either discontinued or never published. This is one way the truth is censored.

Supposedly homo sapiens is the "most advanced" creature to have ever evolved on earth. How can this be if we don't take care of each other and we place a higher importance on paper and metal than we do on each other? If anyone has ever studied population biology they can relate the scenario of what overpopulation of a species does to that species and those species in contact with it. So how can we have the audacity to think that just because we're human that we can evade the inevitable? Species evolve and species become extinct we are no different and no amount of paper or metal will change that. Our problem and the reason that we too will fall to the outcome of population biology, are our inherent faults. If we can enjoy life and truly love each other as we respect that which is around us without trying to control others, then we as a species will live on, but this is a pipe dream.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-7-2010 at 10:04 AM

No Joe: You are not correct in your statement.

What I want is accruate and complete and Honest Science!!

What bothers me is some of the people Teaching and doing the So-called Science has never been out of the Class Room or Lab. They have no Idea of some of the things that they are claiming.

They are claiming theses things to get money donated so that they may do other things,

I have a Challenge of anyone with Balls;

Take a year go live at San Nicholas and go out 5 miles to Delefonso Island, snorkel and dive, observe the Winds and currents and fish and birds and come back an give an accruate report.

Joe: If you want an example of Poor Science go read the Klamath River Fiasco a few years ago.
Another is the Snail Darter thing probably before you were born.

The problem is that the Cheaters, Liars, and Theives are finally being caught up with and challenged.

Pam came to Loreto and the Sea of Cortez several years ago and as she has spoken she has learned the hard way about some of these People.

She knows of what she Speaks.

Skeet

Skipjack Joe - 11-7-2010 at 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam

I am disgusted at how our human classification of endangered species and other fears are used to control how the people live.

That's an interesting statement. I'm honestly curious about how these classifications have been set up to control people's lives.

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam

I worked in research and obviously we couldn't carry out investigations without money, so this is what drives everything.

There are always strings attached to money. That's why we have a 2 party system. No single voter gets everything he wants when casts a vote for his party. Every voter knows he's making a compromise.

All I'm trying to say is -

"Don't throw the baby out with the bath water".

flyfishinPam - 11-7-2010 at 10:43 AM

Fair enough. But don't take my word for it just open your mind and see it for yourself.

Endangered species classifications-
when I was at school studying plant physiology we were encouraged to locate endangered species so as to restrict the rights of the owners of property and preserve the species we found. I personally did not agree with that and never participated in it but many of my fellow classmates did...look up "vernal pools" in northern california and you will find some of this kind of information. Armed with a microscope and electrophoresis apparatus I can probably find novel or endemic species of plants in many many locations on this planet. Then I could document and publish the findings and start the fight against disturbing these species. The outcome would likely include the restriction of the use of the land by its owner and/or the people who need to access and use it. This is just one way that people can be controlled.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-7-2010 at 12:08 PM

Very well said Pam:

Another example is the San Joaquin river in the Central Valley of Calif.

That River is now going through "Restoration" which I do beleive is a good thing as long as the Damage to Low Lying Fields can be protected.
There will be more water flowing and they are trying to keep the same amount of water going to the Land Owners while doing and completing the Restoration.

The money is being spent{Taxes} to save some Species and they are attempting to do this without harming the Land owners or shutting them down from raising Crops{Food}.

Skipjack Joe - 11-7-2010 at 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
... we were encouraged to locate endangered species so as to restrict the rights of the owners of property and preserve the species we found....

I think you have it the other way around. Endangered species are sought because of their plight and the land, at times, is set aside to stop them from being driven to extinction. The idea that school teachers instruct students to threaten land ownership seems pretty radical to me.

If I followed your line of reasoning we should stand aside and let Amazonia be ploughed under because of the individual rights of the Brazilians. That would be insane.

So just as you have stretched my reasoning to absurdity, - so I have yours.

I will gladly agree that the Endangered Species Act is easily abused but it's absence would be wrong as well. It is a step forward, though imperfect.

------------

The way I see it you were initially upset with the Mexican authorities for not being good custodians of the Loreto fisheries and marine environment. So you turned to environment groups to help deal with the problem. But now you're in a position where they have agendas you don't support. What is your next step?

Skeet/Loreto - 11-7-2010 at 12:38 PM

There was an Article in todays News regarding the disapperance of the native "Pronghorn" here in the West.

Govt. People went to the Ranchers and tried to determine their Deaths .
Have not found out why they are Dieing.

Watch what happes if a Nut Group gets onto this! They will probably claim that Texas Boy Scouts are killing them with a Slingshot.
I will follow this and will keep informed and if I find the Truth report it as such!! Please donot send me a Donation!!!

Skeet

Skeet/Loreto - 11-7-2010 at 12:59 PM

Joe:

A good many years ago I was in Puget Sound and watched as all of the TrueCod were taken out by many , many Boats all in about 3o Days. While this took out a Species there are plenty left and some of them coming back to the Sound.

I also watched as 50% of all Salmon was given to the Indians. I watched as the Salmon were taken completely out in places, but Alas!! Salmon is now being rasied in growing numbers.

Is it still Endangered??

In San Nicholas in about 1972 I watched Boat after Boat take out the Sierra whcih caused the Yellowtail to go to deeper water. In the past few years the Sierra have started returning to the San Nicholas area.

2 Years ago the Yellowwtail were in large Numbers chasing Bait as they had been 20 years before. Amberjacks were back in Schools which I had not seen in a few Years.

The Science I would like to see is a study of the Loreto Bay Shrimp Population. What Happened?? Will the fish that fed there years ago come back or go around the other side of Carmen Island and feed at other locations.
Is the Shrimp still there from 700 Feet Down to 1500??

No Joe. Science is fine if the People doing the reporting can be Trusted;
I think we may have to have another couple of Generations with a lot of Moral Training before we can get anyone to report their findings in a Truthful, Factual Way.

Skipjack Joe - 11-7-2010 at 01:43 PM

Skeet, if you don't trust you'll never believe.

You've hit a dead end.

Scientists are by and large very honest people that deal with reproducible data. It's the readers who pick and choose the information they want. And ignore the rest.

flyfishinPam - 11-7-2010 at 01:49 PM

Well I have observed strong independent self sufficient people being displaced from the locations that they have relied upon for generations all in the name of "sustainability", "protected areas", and "resource management", armed with scientific studies that are of questionable duplicity. Good science can be repeated by another investigator and thus proven and strengthened, much of the science used to benefit the non profit industrial complex cannot be repeated and in my opinion that would make it invalid.

I am fine with people accepting changes based on the protection of their environment but I am not fine when they are duped into believing the above by people who descend on them from the outside claiming to know everything. This is a third world country and formal education in many places is lacking but that does not mean the people are not intelligent. When one has a titulo in front of their name they are unconditionally respected and considered experts in everything almost immediately. This is dangerous. This is just another type of imperialism, eco-imperialism.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
--------
The way I see it you were initially upset with the Mexican authorities for not being good custodians of the Loreto fisheries and marine environment. So you turned to environment groups to help deal with the problem. But now you're in a position where they have agendas you don't support. What is your next step?

fair question. the next step is to have discussions with my friends and colleagues my compañeros where we can determine what we have and how we can make it better and protect it and to not so blindly follow those who are willing to create dependents out of us. NGO's are not going away either are the authorities but I say we use them to our advantage and make them work for us as they claim they already do.

I'm not saying we shouldn't protect endangered species but do it in your own country or become a citizen of this one then enter the process and go to battle. The fact is that the first world countries out of control consumerism is the cause of the demise of natural resources throughout the world and furthering the endangerment of the endangered species. This is the case ad it is truth, then why should first world countries determine how the third world people have to live and restrict their freedoms? So perhaps the best way to save endangered species and protect areas is to truly change the way we live.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-7-2010 at 01:56 PM

Joe:
I Trust what I see, hear, and feel not what some Science person says :This is the way it is". Then cannot prove it.

Look at the Huge Fiasco of Global Warming". Look at the Errors that are finally coming out!

No Joe I beleive in the Supreme Being, Nature and the Survival of the Fitist!

I do not think that by and Large they are an Honest group of People. I think they have been misled by a large group of certain types of College Teachers and Groups. I think it may be just part of the Changing Generation that will have to be corrected in the years to come.

I Trust that the Sea of Cortez is not Ruined!

I trust that is does not make any difference if an Endangered Species is gone. Did the Snail Darter chnage your Life??
What Species that has gone away has affected your Life?. Please Name them.

flyfishinPam - 11-7-2010 at 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
... we were encouraged to locate endangered species so as to restrict the rights of the owners of property and preserve the species we found....

I just want to clarify your question so that my words are interpreted correctly. There were never any threats to "land ownership" but there were threats and very real actions regarding land usage.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-7-2010 at 02:13 PM

Joe: If you can answer this One question it will tell us a :Lot about your ideas.

Do you think Ward Churchill should have been teaching???

Skipjack Joe - 11-7-2010 at 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

Look at the Huge Fiasco of Global Warming". Look at the Errors that are finally coming out!

Global Warming is no fiasco.

The fiasco is the ping pong that American politics are playing with the facts.

Please state your thoughts, Pam. Is Global Warming a hoax?

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

I Trust that the Sea of Cortez is not Ruined!

I don't know what you mean by ruined. Ruined means destroyed. As long as species haven't been wiped out they will bounce back given a chance. The Sea of Cortez is a pale shadow of what it once was. And that new road into Gonzaga will make it paler as the fish populations will be driven down to the levels at San Felipe.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

I trust that is does not make any difference if an Endangered Species is gone. Did the Snail Darter chnage your Life??
What Species that has gone away has affected your Life?. Please Name them.

It's not about me and it's not about you.

A creature's right to life is not about it's usefulness to mankind.

Most of people these day's don't share the Biblical viewpoint that creatures are here to serve man.

------------------------------

I'm always careful in putting out my opinions on this board because people often agree with statements due to friendship. So I never know whether someone is actually stating their values or simply supporting a friendship.

flyfishinPam - 11-7-2010 at 02:35 PM

Thank you Joe and Skeet (and the rest) for making me think. I am sorry that I can't possibly convey every single thing that formulates my opinions but I must say that my opinions are a dynamic and ever-evolving paradigm. I have changed my mind on many things throughout life but I have done so after learning or seeing first hand about more facts regarding the topic of each of these opinions. Everyone is probably like this as we all have the right to change our mind for one reason or another. Lets not be divided and conquered, discussion is good and healthy. Peace.

Cypress - 11-7-2010 at 02:41 PM

The Sea of Cortez isn't destroyed. There's plenty of life there in spite of the hooka divers, gill nets, purse nets, long lines, and bottom trawlers. They only have to be smaller than the diameter of the nets. Little tiny critters running for their lives. Ward Churchill? He's just a liberal college prof without a clue. :spingrin:

Third world vs First

Skipjack Joe - 11-7-2010 at 02:56 PM

Pam,

Brazil is telling us that since we clearcut our eastern forests entirely from the eastern seaboard to the Mississippi they should have the same right with Amazonia. The North American deciduous forests were once a solid continuous mass through half of the country. But the situation is different in the 21 century than it was in the 17th. The planet is smaller now. Nobody gets a free pass anymore. It's not about them vs us. We're in this together. Borders don't matter. Everyone has the right to point at everyone.

It's kind of like second hand smoke. You have the right to be in a smoke free room. It's not like letting the person smoke at the next table because he's not right next to you.

That, I believe, is where things are going.

flyfishinPam - 11-7-2010 at 03:03 PM

Nah, the SCO is not destroyed, just severely damaged. Grant permits to the traditional fishermen and regionalize them. Maintain a strict monitoring system and place temporary restrictions where necessary. Those who directly live from the resource will protect them preventing any endangered species from becoming extinct. The real, genuine people who live directly from those resources will naturally protect them and biologically this relationship will take on a symbioticism. This is the law of nature. A parasite knows better than to kill its host. This I have learned from the "uneducated" fishermen. Its when paper and metals start to predominate that all goes to hell. I dunno...I just make up this stuff as I go along.

flyfishinPam - 11-7-2010 at 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Pam,

Brazil is telling us that since we clearcut our eastern forests entirely from the eastern seaboard to the Mississippi they should have the same right with Amazonia. The North American deciduous forests were once a solid continuous mass through half of the country. But the situation is different in the 21 century than it was in the 17th. The planet is smaller now. Nobody gets a free pass anymore. It's not about them vs us. We're in this together. Borders don't matter. Everyone has the right to point at everyone.

It's kind of like second hand smoke. You have the right to be in a smoke free room. It's not like letting the person smoke at the next table because he's not right next to you.

That, I believe, is where things are going.

I am curious. So now that Brazil wants the USA to stop deforestation will this happen up there? Will east of the Mississippi now have to restore all that wood? I'm from the northeast and was told that a squirrel could have made its way from Louisana all the way to Maine by hopping from tree to tree and never having to touch the ground. Why I wasn't there to actually SEE this happen I consider the source and form my own opinion. So wouldn't it be great if Brazil came up to the USA and started telling you how to live?

Somehow I can't see that happening. Sounds something like all the guns in Mexico being blamed on the second ammendment of the USA and Mexico, a soverign nation coming up trying to change it.

Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

i dunno I just make this stuff as I go along

flyfishinPam - 11-7-2010 at 03:24 PM

hmmm again thanks for making me think but now I can't stop thinking so I'd better take a break.

I will ponder at how much CO2 could have been consumed IF those United States Eastern forests had not been downed. I will wonder if that forest was truly the lungs of the planet and be saddened at how we only have one lung left so we'll have to save it. I will also wonder too at how much toxic gas goes into the air on a daily basis from a certain foreign country who doesn't want to acknowledge the Kyoto deal or the Copenhagen fiesta...who will pay and who is at risk. Then I will break bread with my family and have some laffs. If the dinosaurs didn't become extinct would man have ever evolved? How do Carbon credits really work and is there a standardized calculation? If plants inhale CO2 and emit O2 in light and they do the opposite in the dark then shouldn't we leave our lights on so that they can avoid absorbing the far red light and go into their dark phase? You know that phase where the plant emits....CO2? What if my aunt Juanita had balls would she have been names Juan if my grandparents just liked the name and didn't pass it down? And what the hell was that thing that put me down sitting on the deck yesterday then broke me off? it broke off a guy in another boat and my captain too!

Skeet/Loreto - 11-7-2010 at 03:38 PM

Joe:

Global Warming is a Fiasco!!!
It is the Natrual Change in the Weather around the Globe which was taken on by the Nut Al Gore and made into a "Scary Thing" in an Attempt to Control People!!

There is no Proffe. It is a Natrual Change.

The Sea of Cortez goes trought changes that sometimes take years to change back.
At the time 80 to 90 Fishing Boats were going out of Loreto each Morning and lots of Fish were being Caught, everybody talking about.

Now there are very few Fisherman going out so there are not that many fish to report. Another thing is that many of the fisherman are going back to a GPS Spot time and again, reporting No fish. They do not realize that the fish are moving on them.
Look at the reports by Bill Earhart both at Loreto and the pacific Side.
You should go and spend a year on the Sea of Cortez and come back with an Honest Report.

Tell me What Species has been eliminated from the Sea Of Cortez??

Cypress - 11-7-2010 at 03:40 PM

That thing was a fish! A big fish, something that is no longer common in the Sea of Cortez.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-7-2010 at 04:34 PM

Big Fish No longer common in the Sea of Cortez? Ha Ha!

Tell that to Earhart.
Or to me when two and a Half Months ago I pulled my Three 27 Lb. Yellowtails within 5 miles of Loreto Marina. I do it everytime I go down just to see if the fish are still there. Eat One, Alvarro gets the other two for his family{5 Grand Kids}

Cypress - 11-7-2010 at 04:47 PM

So now a 27 lb. fish is big. That's what I'm saying!

baitcast - 11-7-2010 at 05:12 PM

Cypress I don,t remember you ever mentioning getting one 27#YT let alone three,if you did pray tell where ?

The last time you made a report was a while back,and you told about strip bait and triggerfish :rolleyes:

just had to mention it. Rob

Timo1 - 11-7-2010 at 05:15 PM

Uh hummmm

What about the turtle eggs...or is deforestation in Brazil part of that

baitcast - 11-7-2010 at 05:19 PM

You are right I forgot,

BajaRat - 11-7-2010 at 05:21 PM

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Talk about pearls before swine!
Every THING has its price.
In all your effort to justify being captured and taught what to believe, you now expect us to through out even the most basic principles of Physics; cause and effect.
Please tell me that even with all the poop that the commercial, profit driven and politically motivated media has attempted to sell us that you still have the common sense to realize human beings have a huge impact on this planet and all of its inhabitants. Why do you think that these commercial giants put so much effort in telling you that " Every things alright, their just telling you lies. The worlds resources are endless, eat, drink and be merry ", it's your MONEY! They don't give a crap about your dependence on those local resources. Like BPs CEO said "Gulf shrimp aren't the only shrimp in the world". Without some form of conservation effort many places around world are doomed to the same fate as the SOC, and if you think the SOC hasn't been affected by large commercial fishing operations and mega farming then you need to do more homework. Those locals will either manage the turtle resource or have it disappear and taken away from them. A life without ALL the diversity we still have and just neighbors like you would become tiresome just like this conversation. Thanks Lionel
P.S. Skeet, my Texan friends think your probably an east coast Yankee transplant :lol:

Cypress - 11-7-2010 at 05:53 PM

Yea, About that triggerfish, about all I ever caught in the Sea of Cortez, I cut my loses moved on.

drarroyo - 11-7-2010 at 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Joe:

Global Warming is a Fiasco!!!
It is the Natrual Change in the Weather around the Globe which was taken on by the Nut Al Gore and made into a "Scary Thing" in an Attempt to Control People!

hahahaHAHAHa THIS coming from someone that admits being suckered in by religion! Hahahahahahaha
I LOVE the hilarity this site so often offers up!!!

Skeet/Loreto - 11-8-2010 at 07:13 AM

O. K. Baja Rat:

Please list the locarions of the Mega Farming and Large Commercial Operation Fishing in the Sea of Cortez.

You are such a Bull chitter;There are None!!
The last an only One of Two large Japanese Commercials Boats was gone years ago after its illegal Catch was taken away and given to the Poor People of Mexico City.

You donot know of what you Speak. Why not take a visit and see for yourself ??

Comon Rat give us the locations!!

Skeet/Loreto - 11-8-2010 at 07:15 AM

diarro: You are so smart please answer the following.

Why does a Horse have a Tail and where did it come from???

Skeet/Loreto - 11-8-2010 at 07:52 AM

Hey Rat:

My Homework:

38 years on the Sea of Cortez
27 years on the Sea of Cortez in a Panga

Where have you been except on the Mall walking around with your Pants hanging on and listening to your Rap Tunes and Ward Churchill.

baitcast - 11-8-2010 at 08:06 AM

Atta boy Skeet go get em :lol:

Rob

ACLU,PETA,BLM,SIERRA Club,the original tree huggers,just to name a few of the radicals we have to deal with over the years,from beetles to bears their,s a group that wants to save them no matter the cost of jobs money and what not.

Years ago while riding the dirt bikes there was a race scheduled in the Calif.desert that was all set to go when the BLM came in and said shut it down an cancelled to whole thing.

The reason was we would tear up the flora and fauna and put the desert tortoise in danger,funny part was the area was a miltary gunnery range where the blew the hell out of everything :lol:

The snail Darter of Tenn. was a fiasco of the first degree work on a couple of dams was shut down thousands lost thier jobs who knows how much money was lost in the courts where it was fought for a couple of years,all this about a little fish all three in. of him MADNESS.

Spotted Owl and the tree,s he lived in,Tree Huggers in the northwest went to war to save the trees the owl lived,so radical were they the bubby traps were set for the loggers,tree spiking being the favorite method,spikes were driven in the trees before the loggers started cutting the logger comes along startes to cut the chain saw hits the spike the logger is lucky he only loses his arm,the cutting stops the operation shuts down,the company closes it doors the lumber mill shuts its door and everone is out of work.

On and on it goes,save the trees,save the Owl,
Google the endangered species just in the US alone,there will come a time when we have to decide who goes and who stays.
I vote for us.

[Edited on 11-8-2010 by baitcast]

shari - 11-8-2010 at 08:21 AM

Pam has most eloquently touched on many of the problems facing not only baja...but the world. What to do??

One thing that has contributed to the problems on the planet are people NOT living "locally"...eat local food in season, buy local, live local really makes an impact. Imagine if locals got to eat the bountiful harvest in it's own area...much of the sale & transport of species would be eliminated...trucking, jet fuel, packaging, middle men etc. We have developed an apetite for foods from other places and are paying for it.

Pam is right on about her observations of many NGO's and "scientific studies" that are only published IF they demonstrate the desired results which are not necessarily TRUE results. I have had personal experience with this as well in both mexico and canada...scientific data isnt worth a pinch of coon caca unless you carefully examine where the studies come from.

I wholeheartedly support Pam's suggestion of "Grant permits to the traditional fishermen and regionalize them. Maintain a strict monitoring system and place temporary restrictions where necessary. Those who directly live from the resource will protect them preventing any endangered species from becoming extinct. The real, genuine people who live directly from those resources will naturally protect them and biologically this relationship will take on a symbioticism. This is the law of nature. A parasite knows better than to kill its host. This I have learned from the "uneducated" fishermen."...this goes for turtle eggs too!!

Skeet/Loreto - 11-8-2010 at 08:34 AM

Very well spoken Shari!

It says a lot for the Survival of the Fitist.. People move to find Food, a better way of Life, better Weather, etc.

Just imagine the difference in the States if there had been no Slavery and the Black people had stayed in Africa.
Look at the changes since the Nam War and the very small effect the People who came to the States has been.

Look at the effect the Mesxcanos coming to the States has been.

Shari, it just weems to me that some of the Younger Generation has lost the Ability to go out and Seek the Truth about different matters.

Hope it changes for the sake of their Grandchildren.

BajaRat - 11-8-2010 at 09:07 PM

First of all, I am an unproud owner of personally being involved in commercial fishing operations desimating and slaughtering the unwanted by-catch. Funny, really, is it funny? you talk about baggy pants and malls...I would love to dwell on the idea that you were in diapers and sucking your thumb while I was busy on my 200+ foot Portugese tuna seiner, out of San Diego in the 1980's...finning sharks, and throwing over tens of thousands of pounds of by-catch including: spinner and spotter porpoise with my US government inspector looking the other way. Please don't play Jesus when we've all shown that we have the devil inside. Am I proud of this? Hell no!!!!! I was fresh out of high school and thought tuna fishing out of San Diego would be a fantastic way to feed the world.

The baggy pants comment, you ain't got crap in your own drawers. The mall? Never my kick. Yet, I got caught and captured, taught what to believe, thinking that somehow this blue ball had inexhaustable resources. I am guilt-stricken every day to the point where I will never eat shark. The porpoise we were "protecting" will never make up for the tuna we were slaughtering.

I have spoken with commercial tunafishermen in this last decade who, in casual conversation, stated they "were doing great, catching huge fish." When I asked them what they considered huge fish, the response was "70-90 pounds" with a gleam in their eye. They were shocked to hear that in the 80s, when I was fishing south of Hawaii, 350 pound cows were the norm. This isn't something unusual, this is the what the fisheries all around the planet are describing today, other than the commercial factory ships, that look at tonnage rather than specimen size. What we are missing here is that there is a difference between indemic cultures and local fishermen, compared to indescriminant harvesting of the world's oceans.

Baggy pants. What a ridiculous excuse for a conversation. If I wore those, I'd tell ya, and I'd be proud of them. The fact is that what I've described above, I am not proud of. Baja California, since my childhood, has always been a bastion and a haven for what is possible, on a local and sustainable scale. I do not choose to live blindly. I want to live. I want my family to live. I want to get back to something that is real, sustainable, and productive. I know I made some bad choices when I was a kid, sin baggy pants

I can't believe that would be your best defense against honest information that is painful especially when you have lived it. Senor, and all other amigos, I love all the wonderful pictures and great stories that we post here. Unfortunately, there's an underbelly and a seedy reality that exists on this planet. I am telling you first hand that this IS a reality and that the same reality is taking place in the SOC today. Please forgive me for what I have done, for I know the planet won't.

You asked about the damage being done to the SOC? To address mega farming? The very north end of the Sea of Cortez used to flow freely with navigable river waters leading into the Colorado. US policy has divided these waters amongst the southwestern states to the point that they never reach the sea. BCN farmers have had to resort to groundwater because the river flows no more. Just look at the satellite photos. Stop believing me or some A-hole's story on "it's this way" or "it's that." Times have changed, friends, and the planet is changing, and our negative impact can no longer be disputed. Species are dying at unheard of rates, including the lovely things you like to eat.

In regards to mega farming: the Sea of Cortez does not only encompass the lonely, quiet, shores of Baja California. Let's not forget the impact of the greater coast of mainland Mexico; in particular, Los Mochis, Sinaloa.
This river delta region has been feeding the United States for decades. Its pesticides, fertilizers and all other unnatural by-products are wreaking havoc on the SOC. Again, some of the most impacting realities can be seen in past and current satellite photography.

Please, don't discount the people bringing forth the realities that are adversely impacting our environment. They are only trying to do the best to save what we have left. Please, use your own judgement, study, learn. The key is to know when to make changes.
Thanks. Lionel

P.S. Please note the sites below, read, explore, and make your own decisions. These could be the most important choices in your life.

http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/science/20080318-1027-...

"SAN FELIPE, Mexico – The vaquita, a tiny stubby-nosed porpoise found only in Mexico's Sea of Cortez, is on the brink of extinction as more die each year in fishing nets than are being born, biologists say. A drop in vaquita numbers to as few as 150 from around 600 at the start of the decade could see the famously shy animal go the same way as the Chinese river dolphin, which was declared all but extinct in 2006."

http://www.earthsave.org/environment/rxenviro.htm

"FISH and MEXICO and CALIFORNIA: In December 1995, the Sacramento Bee newspaper ran a remarkable 4-part series on the devastation of the Sea of Cortez between mainland Mexico and Baja California. The Sea of Cortez is 700 miles long, 60 to 150 miles wide, and nearly twice the size of Lake Superior, and more than 300 times larger than Lake Tahoe.

Part One: Tom Knudson, "A Dying Sea," Dec 10, 1995.

¥ "This great amniotic sea, this world showcase of marine life is being destroyed. The problem is basic. It is overfishing, aided by greed, corruption, poverty and lawlessness. This is 1995, but the Gulf of California is a frontier sea where marine life is slaughtered for markets in the US and Asia, for foreign exchange and sometimes for little more than gas money."

¥ "The Sea of Cortez is more than just a dazzling spectacle of nature. It is a Pacific Caribbean for the western US. It is California's Riviera."

¥ "Gone are the huge navies of game fish that fed so savagely they forced schools of bait fish to burst out of the water--volcanoes of fish erupting into the air. Gone are the immense, slow-moving cumulus clouds of turtles, manta rays, the thick, spiraling columns of hammerhead and thresher sharks, the clams thick as cobblestones on the beach. Gone too is the future for many families who make their living from the sea."

¥ "By all accounts, the entire gulf is being utterly devastated by overfishing," said Paul Dayton, a professor of marine ecology at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla, Ca, one of the premier marine science centers in the world."

¥ "And there's something else: This is no isolated disaster. It is one spore in a larger pox, the plundering of oceans worldwide."

¥ "Catch a ride on a shrimp trawler, the sea's most destructive fishing machine. Watch the big nets scoop up tons of unwanted species, such as sea horses, starfish, manta rays and enormous quantities of baby fish. Help the crew sort out the shrimp and heave the excess overboard--dead. For every pound of shrimp caught in the Sea of Cortez, nearly 10 pounds of other marine life dies."

¥ "The world is not just losing the treasures of the Sea of Cortez. It is eating them. Fishing is supposed to be done conservatively to protect stocks. But in poverty-stricken Mexico, another rule applies: If you will buy it, they will kill it. They will liquidate their sea." And the US is the biggest buyer of Mexico's seafood.

¥ "Here the ocean was full of fish, like a smorgasbord. Now there's nothing. The gulf is exhausted." Manuel Palacio, 65, Mexican fisherman.

¥ "The damage doesn't stop at the water's edge. In some places, seabirds are fading from the sky too, apparently because there's not enough fish to eat."

Part Two: Tom Knudson, "Waste on grand scale loots sea," Dec 11, 1995.

¥ There is massive waste in commercial fishing. "It is one of the most serious environmental problems in the world," said Paul Dayton, of Scripps Institute of Oceanography in La Jolla. "And it's out of sight. Fisherman don't advertise it. People don't know what's happening."

¥ "Worldwide, more than 57 billion pounds of sea life are caught unintentionally and wasted every year, estimates the UN's Food and Agriculture Organization in Rome. That is more than 200 pounds of dead, discarded marine life for every man, woman and child in the US. It is one-quarter of all annual marine catches on Earth and more than double the entire commercial marine catch of the world's largest fishing nation, China."

¥ "By wasting so much marine life, fisherman may be literally throwing away the future."

¥ "In the Sea of Cortez, for every pound of shrimp caught, 9.7 pounds of other marine life dies. And sometimes, the ratio climbs to 40 to 1, according to people who live on the sea."

¥ The Sea of Cortez was once a place teeming with life--"a Serengeti of the sea." "It was like diving into an aquarium," says one old-timer.

¥ "The sea is a vast piece of machinery, composed of billions of moving parts. But whole segments are being stripped away before anyone knows how they work or fit into the larger whole...Species that were abundant 20 years ago are ghosts today."

Part Three: Tom Knudson, "Bribery, lawbreaking, scarce law enforcement abound," Dec 12, 1995.

¥ "Oceans everywhere are hard to police. And poaching is commonplace."

¥ "As the seas are depleted, something else is damaged, too: the human communities that depend on them...Ironically, those who suffer the greatest are those who need the sea the most--simple fishermen and their families."

Part Four: Tom Knudson, "It's not too late, and the sea itself may show the way," Dec 13, 1995.

¥ "But the biggest reason for hope has nothing to do with people. It is the Sea of Cortez itself. The sea is a recovery project waiting to happen."

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/fishing/news/story?id=291...

http://www.cipamericas.org/archives/1367

http://www.mexconnect.com/articles/3157-overfishing-in-the-s...
"Two boats caught around 400 dorado - we watched them retrieve approximately 110 hooks and there were 53 dorado on each of them. Each boat had 5 km of longline with 600 to 700 baited hooks in the water. Multiply these numbers by the numbers of boats fishing and you suddenly have 5,000 to 10,000 small dorado being taken from Baja waters on any given day."

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