BajaNomad - Thoughts about a tragedy

Thoughts about a tragedy

toneart - 11-25-2010 at 05:03 PM

Nomads,

I was going to post this on the ongoing string about Carlos Fiesta & friends' plane crash and then decided to start this, a separate string. The reason is, I didn't want to hijack that string with any possibility of a back and forth discussion regarding my thoughts.

While my thoughts were triggered by that tragedy, they originated long before now and somehow seem clearer to me now. With all due respect, this is an idea in a larger, more general sense:

Quote:
Originally posted by The Sculpin
A bit contrarian, but why is this so sad? The guy had a zest for life. He lived life to the fullest. We all have to die. He left doing what he loved. Is that really so bad? As B&B said - via con dios, amigo.

[Edited on 11-23-2010 by The Sculpin]

I have often thought about the phrase "He left doing what he loved".

Even though this was so, that doesn't somehow nullify the sadness. Remember, it is the people who loved him (and his two amigos) and remain here on earth for whom it is sad.

Beyond that, it is sad for those who didn't know him too. I have checked in with my own feelings and can verify this. The advent of a tragedy, especially involving someone we know so much about, and also have Baja in common, means that we can directly relate to it. We are related in brotherhood! It could have been one of us.

In conclusion, I don't see how, "He left doing what he loved." makes any difference at all. I'm sure he didn't love trying to ditch in the water. They were unlucky to have perished in that way.

What I can get any consolation out of, at all, is that they spent their last few days in Baja doing what they loved. If one reflects on visions of them during those happy times, we can muster a tearful smile.

Sculpin- Please don't take this as criticism. I am just philosophizing about the phrase.

RIP, amigos!

woody with a view - 11-25-2010 at 05:27 PM

i deleted my long winded response in my eulogy.

here is the gist of it. i think Carlos Fiesta had a good long successful life. he did what he wanted, when he wanted. maybe not 100%, but if we examine our own lot in life, i would hope that 95% of you Nomads would look yourself in the mirror and wink saying, "DAMN, i did have a pretty good run!"

the rest of you just gotta put in more time......

RIP Carlos (and his 2 amigos!) :saint:

Bajahowodd - 11-25-2010 at 05:44 PM

Tony

Just think for a moment about the many ways one might encounter their demise. Painful wasting cancer. Alzheimer's. Lou Gehrig disease. Or something more pedestrian such as a traffic accident. Thing is, that while I truly understand where you are coming from, I'd like to think that whatever there is in the hereafter, if there is one, that there is some merit to the idea of someone passing away in the midst of doing what they loved. JMHO

DENNIS - 11-25-2010 at 05:55 PM

Whatever everything is all about, I really don't want to know. Nobody can take it with them, so to speak, but if what they leave behind is good, they did good.
RIP

Barry A. - 11-25-2010 at 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Tony

Just think for a moment about the many ways one might encounter their demise. Painful wasting cancer. Alzheimer's. Lou Gehrig disease. Or something more pedestrian such as a traffic accident. Thing is, that while I truly understand where you are coming from, I'd like to think that whatever there is in the hereafter, if there is one, that there is some merit to the idea of someone passing away in the midst of doing what they loved. JMHO

What Howard said.

Barry

toneart - 11-25-2010 at 10:27 PM

I think what you guys are saying is, "live life to the fullest". That is certainly a worthy thing to do. From what I know of you guys, you are doing it! Better to have done that than not to have. It is your legacies to leave behind for your loved ones to remember.

We don't get to choose the way we die, but we can surely choose the way we live! :yes:

Bob H - 11-26-2010 at 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
We don't get to choose the way we die, but we can surely choose the way we live! :yes:

Right ON!

Pescador - 11-26-2010 at 08:02 AM

Tony, you have hit on the real split that we face when a loved one passes. We try very hard to wrap our feeble little minds around the whole idea and when we are unable to completely do that we come up with attempts at smoothing out the rough edges of our feelings with catchy little sayings that try to make some sense out of the tragedy. Of course it is good to live life to the fullest but in the end I suspect that those who really did live life to the fullest leave the biggest hole of all.
But since we do not get to choose the "exit time" the only thing we can do is to be the best that we can be up until that time.

Ken Bondy - 11-26-2010 at 08:42 AM

This is a fascinating discussion, thanks toneart for lighting this off. I have too often heard the old, tired phrase, "...he/she died doing what he/she loved doing..." and it has never made much sense to me. Other than the people that I love/have loved and my professional career, I have had three major passions in my life, skiing, flying, and diving/underwater photography. The thought of dying doing any one of them is, frankly, pretty repulsive to me. It wouldn't have made it any better for me, although it might have offered some consolation for those left behind. The best advice is what others have offered here, paraphrased simply, live every day to the fullest, capture the day. Here's some good advice that I try to live by:

"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour. Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will. Place no faith in time, and waste no time on faith. For the clock may soon be still." [Robert H. Smith, 1932, with minor editorial modification]

Iflyfish - 11-26-2010 at 08:57 AM

I appreciate this thoughtful discussion. Coming on the heels of the US Thanksgiving Day is it particularly cogent.

The older I get the more significant these issues are to me. At this age and stage I face my mortality on a regular basis as I witness my decrepitude advance on my once robust body.

It seems to me that there is truth in all of the thought provoking and thoughtful posts thus far.

I am reminded upon the death of someone who I identify with how important it is to live well, to live life to its fullest. Each day of consciousness is a gift and an opportunity to seize life and enjoy it, to make it better not only for ourselves but for others also. Each day is also an opportunity to love well.

I doubt that I will be remembered past a generation or two so have no illusions regarding my legacy. I do however wish to love those around me and to be as positive as I can be while I am here. That is both good for me and for those around me.

I have concluded that when people die we try to make sense of it and thereby exercise some sort of illusionary control over the situation. He ate too much, drank too much, was too reckless, he didn't have his chakras adequately aligned, he stored too much bile, anger, sloth etc. Rubbish really, we all die and that's that. The only issue really is how long and with what quality we live.

We also try to control the situation by asking "what could I have done" etc. We subtly delude ourselves with these statements when we believe we will not die from doing what “that poor fool did”.

For those who are left when someone close to them dies there is grief. How we deal with that grief is individual but there are to be found clear patterns of it around the world. The biggest problem with grief, now it becomes pathological is when we deny it, don’t allow ourselves to grieve or we stay stuck in it and stop living ourselves.

Many deny death and grief with platitudes "he is in a better place", “he lived long”, “he is now with Allah, Jesus” etc. These statements have many levels to them and all serve the function of allaying our anxiety and grief over the situation.

We also try to assuage our feelings and the feelings of others with platitudes like "he lived well", "he lived a long life" etc. As humans we tend to avoid pain and seek pleasure. We deny death. There is a wonderful book on the subject Ernst Becker’s Denial of Death, a Psychoanalytical View of History.

As Kierkegaard well said “life is an apple with a worm at its core, that worm is we die” We all must come to terms with this fact and it is in my opinion why as humans we have evolved such complex religions to address this issue, life’s great mystery.
I used to think that I would live forever. I now know that this is not only untrue but also I realize that I would not like to live in a body that continues to deteriorate while I retain consciousness of its increasing decrepitude. For me the conclusion is that of many who have thus far posted. I hope to live well, experience as much as I can, love well and be a positive force in the world while I am here. I hope that when I die that people will take some time to reflect on our relationship, shed some tears, express some anger, finish their business with me and move on to live their own lives with as much gusto as they can muster.

Iflyfishphilosophicaly

Iflyfish - 11-26-2010 at 08:59 AM

"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour. Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will. Place no faith in time, and waste no time on faith. For the clock may soon be still." [Robert H. Smith, 1932, withminor editorial modification]

Well said Ken, well said.

Iflyfish

DianaT - 11-26-2010 at 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador
Tony, you have hit on the real split that we face when a loved one passes. We try very hard to wrap our feeble little minds around the whole idea and when we are unable to completely do that we come up with attempts at smoothing out the rough edges of our feelings with catchy little sayings that try to make some sense out of the tragedy. ..............

I have often thought about the idea of those "catchy little sayings" and wondered------

You mention the attempt at smoothing of the rough edges, Tony mentioned trying to nullify---I don't know. Do those things do any of that? When we are the ones left behind do we even hear those words when suffering such personal pain?

Yet in our society, we seem to often deny death as being a part of life----to me, no one every pointed this out better than George Carlin in some of routines about death. We hardly even use the word dead. So what are we left with? Euphemisms become the norm --- even for the deeply religious.

I do like the Unitarian saying, which they probably adopted from else where as they often do,

In mystery we are born, in mystery we live, and in mystery we die.

And it could be added that it is a mystery WHEN we will die---or as the common euphemism would say, it was his/her time. But as humans we seem to want answers, not mystery, but we are dealing with concepts we don't really understand.

Is it not sad for the dead? Is there any awareness? Since it is a mystery as to why we are alive at all, is dead any different? We do know those left behind are in real pain, and those around the survivors seem to be left with little except the euphemisms.

Some cultures provide a rather programed way of dealing with life and death all as a part of the same thing. I wonder it that provides the survivors more comfort, but I believe only a member of that culture would know.

Tony, it is a very interesting topic, and probably more so those of us who are closer to death simply because of age---or more liking to be said, headed toward the end of our life.

And we are all left with our own definitions of living life to the fullest----

[Edited on 11-26-2010 by DianaT]

Mike99km - 11-26-2010 at 10:29 AM

Dieing doing something we love.
Death is our last event, it will be a mark used by or friends/ loved ones. We do have a choice as to the when and how, most of us choose to stay. Everybody does a risk assessment when they choose to do anything, get in car, take a walk,jump out of a plane, get out of bed. By deciding to to anything we choose to live.
The way we live our life is how we will be remembered, Dying doing something we love generally means that we knew the risk and screwed up doing it. We start set of events in motion that we lose control, can't stop or get off. The final outcome is or friends /loved ones are remembering us. In that end we get to find out the answer to the big question.
All the the rest are left with a hole in our heart and grieving. Hopefully, you have make some mark on this world that you're positively remembered by.
I know this is a bit harsh, I have had lots of friends die doing the thing they love. I celebrate their life and miss their company.

BajaGringo - 11-26-2010 at 10:35 AM

I hope they talk more about how I lived than how I died when the time comes. Don't put off your dreams for tomorrow and live with no regrets...

schwlind - 11-26-2010 at 12:03 PM

So many eloquent words have been written... sadly, inspired by such a horrible tragedy.

I wish I had known him...

Linda

Woooosh - 11-26-2010 at 01:37 PM

A tragedy that a full gas tank would have fixed, or at least another gallon.

David K - 11-26-2010 at 01:42 PM

Well said Frank.

toneart - 11-26-2010 at 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by schwlind
So many eloquent words have been written... sadly, inspired by such a horrible tragedy.

I wish I had known him...

Linda

Yes! I wish I had known him too!

What wonderful responses from every one of you. I would love to sit in a circle with all of you who have so eloquently expressed your thoughts on living and dying. I feel that Carlos Fiesta would also be present. He is!

We tend to ponder the "mysteries", as Diane put it. For me, the questions, "who, what, where and when" are not so important. It is the "why(?)"that is still the mystery. Why life? Why death? Why indeed!

I feel I am getting clearer, and yet....????

Carpe Diem :!:

Barry A. - 11-26-2010 at 02:44 PM

For me, at 72, I have given up on the "pondering" Tony. I have (I think) provided for all my kids and my wife, gotten rid of many of my toys and most junk, so when it happens I just hope it is really quick (preferably in my sleep), and I don't want any fuss made over it, and my family knows it------I am ready, but in the mean time I will just "keep on living fast and hard" if you know what I mean. :yes:

Life is good!!!!

Barry

DianaT - 11-26-2010 at 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

Quote:

Originally posted by schwlind
So many eloquent words have been written... sadly, inspired by such a horrible tragedy.

I wish I had known him...

Linda

Do you think we might even scratch the surface of the why ? But it would be interesting to try, or maybe just a little crazy making in trying to seek that clarification.

Recently I heard someone say that since we do not understand the mystery and the why that we should just accept the now and forget pondering the other. Not sure I could ever do that.

One interesting thought about people dying when they know they are dying comes from a relative of mine. When working where most of the patients were dying and knew they were dying, she said she often watched them choose the time of actual death. These were people who had suffered very long term illnesses.

Cypress - 11-26-2010 at 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador We try very hard to wrap our feeble little minds around the whole idea and when we are unable to completely do that we come up with attempts at smoothing out the rough edges of our feelings with catchy little sayings that try to make some sense out of the tragedy. Of course it is good to live life to the fullest but in the end I suspect that those who really did live life to the fullest leave the biggest hole of all.
But since we do not get to choose the "exit time" the only thing we can do is to be the best that we can be up until that time.

Words of wisdom from the Fisherman. Thanks!

woody with a view - 11-26-2010 at 03:10 PM

i have had a great life. i couldn't ask for anything better or different (knowing full well it won't do any good, anyway!).....

i just hope i'm on the way back from some great adventure, as opposed to on my way to said great adventure, when my number is called. :biggrin:

Cypress - 11-26-2010 at 03:20 PM

"Everybody has a plan.....untill they get hit". Mike Tyson.

Barry A. - 11-26-2010 at 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
"Everybody has a plan.....untill they get hit". Mike Tyson.

HOW TRUE!!!!!

Barry

Bob H - 11-27-2010 at 07:18 AM

I'm not afraid of dying I just don't want to be there when it happens.
Spike Milligan

wilderone - 11-27-2010 at 09:12 AM

"... the questions, "who, what, where and when" are not so important. It is the "why(?)"that is still the mystery. Why life? Why death?"

Each person has different life experiences that weigh into the equation, and I can only speak for myself. I am a little more atuned to spirituality than some, and have learned MY "truth". Personal experience, along with a lot of study from others' experiences, has lead me to know that everyone's life - and death - is a minute part of the whole. We will not understand the "whole" until we die, but we must trust that whatever occurs is the way it is intended and must be accepted as such. Even if you don't "believe", I would recommend the Sylvia Browne books, as well as the several life after death books that are out. For many years I had figured out several pieces of the puzzle myself, but once I read Browne's books, it all came together. My son's death reinforced much of what I came to believe about the goodness of God's Plan. Carlos Fiesta's death is as it should be, and he lived a good life. His energy and memories will endure; his book will likely influence for years to come.

MsTerieus - 11-27-2010 at 03:13 PM

[Toneart said]: "I have often thought about the phrase 'He left doing what he loved'. Even though this was so, that doesn't somehow nullify the sadness. Remember, it is the people who loved him (and his two amigos) and remain here on earth for whom it is sad."

In my experience, there can be two types of sadness when someone beloved dies. One is sadness for the person who died -- because, e.g., he/she died in pain, or lived a sad or unfulfilled life, or "gave up" on life too soon. The other is sadness for myself -- grief -- because I won't have him or her in my life anymore. It WOULD alleviate all or most of my sadness of the first type (i.e., sadness for the person who died) to know that he/she died doing what they loved (and without pain).

[Edited on 11-27-2010 by MsTerieus]

This IS the Way to GO ?

MrBillM - 11-27-2010 at 06:04 PM

I seriously doubt that was the last thought of Anyone on board.

Having come too close to death more than a couple of times doing things I loved, I know I was damned glad to have survived to do some of those things again over the years.

Granted, a lingering death from disease is not something any of us look forward to, a drowsy drifting off some night after EVERYTHING has been done would be best of all.

LancairDriver - 11-28-2010 at 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Jorge
Sad ending. Choose carefully the aircraft you fly, when and where you fly it and choose carefully the left seat occupant or you will be in the Aftermath.

AMEN