BajaNomad

Does Pemex add ethanol?

landyacht318 - 12-1-2010 at 11:04 PM

Just wondering if Pemexes near the border regions are buying gas from the US, and if it contains ethanol.

One of the highest mileage tanks of gas I ever bought was in El Rosario, and I attributed it not having ethanol. I always found my 318 TBI runs good on Pemex, but I have not been SOB in too long.

sanquintinsince73 - 12-2-2010 at 12:08 AM

They may be adding something. Last month I got a full tank in San Vicente on my suburban (40 gallons) and I got around 500 miles out of it. It's always been my personal experience that Mexican gas is very low quality and it's never given me lots of mileage or power. Maybe they just stopped watering it down?

BajaCactus - 12-2-2010 at 12:10 AM

landyacht318... in northern Baja, sometimes Pemex distributes fuel that comes from the States... however, as far as I know, there is no ethanol content on any Pemex fuel, at least I have never seen it in the lab reports of any shipments we have received at BajaCactus... I will confirm this data for you in the next few days.

Regarding your high mileage with our fuel at BajaCactus... I believe the reason was that you just bought your fuel in the right place... :biggrin:

BajaCactus

Cypress - 12-2-2010 at 06:30 AM

Ethanol does a number on small engines, causes some of the nonmetal parts to become mush. The higher the percentage of ethonal the quicker the reaction.

monoloco - 12-2-2010 at 07:03 AM

Ethanol reduces fuel milage, you may have gotten better milage due to the lack of ethanol.

Russ - 12-2-2010 at 08:24 AM

I put premium in in El Rasario on the way up and although it costs more the extra milage was noticeable. I need a smog check for the d*mn registration.

David K - 12-2-2010 at 08:48 AM

Pemex is pure gasoline and my best mileage figures come after filling up in El Rosario and then having the long drive home from there.

I post on Tacoma World forums and there are frequent gas mileage threads comparing what we get. Because there are several models of Tacomas (2 door/ 4 door/ 4 cyl/ V-6/ manual/ automatic/ 2WD or 4WD), lots to compare. My current average is 16.7 mpg and my best highway mileage (in Baja) was 19 1/2 mpg... 4 door, V-6, automatic, 4WD.

Anyway, there is a web site called http://www.Fuelly.com where you can enter your fill up amounts and it will track your mileage and expenses and post your mileage on your signature on forums.

durrelllrobert - 12-2-2010 at 12:32 PM

as reported by:www.rversonline.org/ArtMexFuels.html in Oct 2009
Nearly 2/3 of the gasoline sold by PEMEX in the northern half of the country is refined and imported from the USA. In particular PEMEX invested $1B for a 50% interest in the Shell Deer Park TX refining facility: abarrelfull.wikidot.com/deer-park-refining-ltd

Waiting For Antonio

Bajahowodd - 12-2-2010 at 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by durrelllrobert
as reported by:www.rversonline.org/ArtMexFuels.html in Oct 2009
Nearly 2/3 of the gasoline sold by PEMEX in the northern half of the country is refined and imported from the USA. In particular PEMEX invested $1B for a 50% interest in the Shell Deer Park TX refining facility: abarrelfull.wikidot.com/deer-park-refining-ltd


That the stuff is refined in Texas doesn't necessarily mean it comes with ethanol. In fact, ethanol adds to the price. Don't think Pemex would want that. Ethanol is a ridiculous scam. It decreases efficiency- thereby mileage. It's the most blatant farm subsidy around, and serves to drive up the cost of many other foods.

That said, I've always gotten a chuckle when watching TV commercials where the various brands claim special additives to their gas, when virtually all the stations in my area have their gas delivered in unbranded trucks that fill from a central terminal. In other words, it's all the same.

BajaWarrior - 12-2-2010 at 04:35 PM

I noticed a sign on the pumps the other day at Costco San Diego that reads "Contains 10% Ethanol" just for a referance.

ethanol, bush tax cuts for the rich

mtgoat666 - 12-2-2010 at 04:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Pemex is pure gasoline...


99.9% pure?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Ethanol is a ridiculous scam. It decreases efficiency- thereby mileage. It's the most blatant farm subsidy around, and serves to drive up the cost of many other foods....


scam? perhaps.... "A federal subsidy of 45 cents a gallon for blending ethanol into gasoline and a 54-cent per gallon tariff on imported ethanol"

is that true?

Quote:

Let the ethanol wars begin.

Shortly after a bipartisan group of senators circulated a letter calling for an end to federal ethanol subsidies and tariffs this week, a group of Corn Belt senators have released their own declaration calling for renewal of the measures.

A federal subsidy of 45 cents a gallon for blending ethanol into gasoline and a 54-cent per gallon tariff on imported ethanol will both expire automatically at the end of the year without Congressional action. A bill introduced in April by Charles Grassley, Republican of Iowa, and Kent Conrad, Democrat of North Dakota, would extend the measures until 2015.

“Ethanol has proven its value as a homegrown, renewable fuel and, in light of the hundreds of billions of dollars shipped abroad as a result of foreign oil dependence, ethanol is a relative bargain,” Mr. Grassley said in a statement accompanying the letter.

The letter was signed by 16 senators, including Al Franken, Democrat of Minnesota, and John Thune, Republican of South Dakota.

Opponents of the ethanol subsidy and tariffs call them unnecessary to support a mature industry and a waste of money at a time of deep fiscal crisis. Ethanol sales continue to climb in the United States and are expected to reach nearly 14 billion gallons in 2011, according to the Environmental Protection Agency.

Federal law requires that renewable fuels account for 8 percent of the motor fuels to be sold next year. The same law mandates that ethanol production in the United States climb to 36 billion gallons per year by 2022.

Ethanol from sugar-growing countries like Brazil is cheaper to produce than domestic ethanol, made largely from corn, and dropping the tariff and subsidy would likely result in a significant drop in domestic production.

“Our country is spending over $730 million a day on imported petroleum this year, money that often ended up in the hands of unstable or unfriendly governments,” Mr. Conrad said in a statement. “This is not the time to reduce the supply of a domestic source of fuel and place at greater risk the thousands of well-paying jobs that the renewable fuels industry has created.”


if we keep the ethanol subsidies, we need to eliminate the bush tax cuts for the rich :lol:

bajalou - 12-2-2010 at 04:56 PM

Everywhere I've seen lately in NM, AZ and Calif have ethanol added according to the stickers on the pumps.

Bajahowodd - 12-2-2010 at 05:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Pemex is pure gasoline...


99.9% pure?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Ethanol is a ridiculous scam. It decreases efficiency- thereby mileage. It's the most blatant farm subsidy around, and serves to drive up the cost of many other foods....


scam? perhaps.... "A federal subsidy of 45 cents a gallon for blending ethanol into gasoline and a 54-cent per gallon tariff on imported ethanol"

is that true?

Quote:

Let the ethanol wars begin.

Shortly after a bipartisan group of senators circulated a letter calling for an end to federal ethanol subsidies and tariffs this week, a group of Corn Belt senators have released their own declaration calling for renewal of the measures.

A federal subsidy of 45 cents a gallon for blending ethanol into gasoline and a 54-cent per gallon tariff on imported ethanol will both expire automatically at the end of the year without Congressional action. A bill introduced in April by Charles Grassley, Republican of Iowa, and Kent Conrad, Democrat of North Dakota, would extend the measures until 2015.

“Ethanol has proven its value as a homegrown, renewable fuel and, in light of the hundreds of billions of dollars shipped abroad as a result of foreign oil dependence, ethanol is a relative bargain,” Mr. Grassley said in a statement accompanying the letter.

The letter was signed by 16 senators, including Al Franken, Democrat of Minnesota, and John Thune, Republican of South Dakota.

Opponents of the ethanol subsidy and tariffs call them unnecessary to support a mature industry and a waste of money at a time of deep fiscal crisis. Ethanol sales continue to climb in the United States and are expected to reach nearly 14 billion gallons in 2011, according to the Environmental Protection Agency.

Federal law requires that renewable fuels account for 8 percent of the motor fuels to be sold next year. The same law mandates that ethanol production in the United States climb to 36 billion gallons per year by 2022.

Ethanol from sugar-growing countries like Brazil is cheaper to produce than domestic ethanol, made largely from corn, and dropping the tariff and subsidy would likely result in a significant drop in domestic production.

“Our country is spending over $730 million a day on imported petroleum this year, money that often ended up in the hands of unstable or unfriendly governments,” Mr. Conrad said in a statement. “This is not the time to reduce the supply of a domestic source of fuel and place at greater risk the thousands of well-paying jobs that the renewable fuels industry has created.”


if we keep the ethanol subsidies, we need to eliminate the bush tax cuts for the rich :lol:


A key issue is that ethanol from corn is way inefficient. Brazil has been quite successful in their Sugar cane to ethanol program. The US, with the exception of Hawaii, and perhaps Puerto Rico, does not have a climate for growing cane. You might wish to research what it takes in other fuel costs to produce ethanol. It has always been nothing more than major pork for corn farmers.

landyacht318 - 12-2-2010 at 10:50 PM

Thanks for the replies.

While I think a local renewable fuel supply is good, I do not want ethanol in my Gas.

I am wondering how the addition of ethanol changes the level to which gasoline is refined. Ethanol does raise the octane level. So since we are getting 10%, and possibly more in our Gas NOB, yet the octane levels are not higher, one might think the gas is refined to less of a level, then the ethanol added to make octane ratings.

So perhaps it is just another case of more money in the oil companies pockets.

DavidE - 12-2-2010 at 11:15 PM

It is a l-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-n-g way from the nearest refinery to Baja California.

Celaya to El Rosario would probably tally sixteen hundred miles even by ferry and no trucks no pipas go further north than Jesus Maria and possibly Bahia Gonzaga. To go around would about double the distance. Pemex wouldn't spend that kind of money for transportation, period.

Petroleos Mexicanos according to the engineers I talked with at the Villahermosa Tabasco refinery, said fuel imported Magna from the states contains the barest minimum of additives, except for MDA, metal deactivator.

Every drop of Pemex Premium is imported and it has "more" additives than Magna.

I've found that an occasional shot of Chevron TECHRON makes even blah ordinary Magna into darn good gasoline.

I cannot even begin to describe the days of Mexolina, and Nova Super. I could have sworn that you could have poured a gallon out onto the ground, start lighting matches and three of four would fizzle before igniting the "gasoline".

Hook - 12-3-2010 at 06:44 AM

Wasn't the original Nova listed on the pump as 81 octane? :no:

I remember fiddling around with my distributor whenever I'd go to Mexico in the late 70s and early 80s. Cant remember if I advanced or retarded the spark. I do remember lots of "clattering". I brought a lot of 104 octane boost with me after a while.

BajaNomad - 12-3-2010 at 06:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I've always gotten a chuckle when watching TV commercials where the various brands claim special additives to their gas, when virtually all the stations in my area have their gas delivered in unbranded trucks that fill from a central terminal.

And that central terminal also has the additives for each brand in their (much smaller) separate tanks. The additives are injected into the fuel when the truck is loaded at the rack. You're semi-correct... same gasoline in these markets, but still different additives.

Examples of cities in California that are setup like this include El Centro, San Jose, etc.

-
Doug

BajaNomad - 12-3-2010 at 07:09 AM

Unless something's changed in the past few years (and I'm doubtful it has), there is no Pemex refinery on the west coast producing gasoline. Only diesel. So, unless there's a pipeline now bringing gasoline (or more of it) to the west coast (or a refinery producing it), the majority of the gasoline for this area is imported from the USA (Los Angeles) via ship. If I recall, there are pipelines running between Texas and northern Mexico.

Things could've changed. I haven't been following this much in the past 10+ years.

http://www.theodora.com/pipelines/mexico_pipelines.html

Baja&Back - 12-3-2010 at 08:07 AM

Doug: There is a refinery in La Paz. It's not just a depot. I have asked Pemex employees. We see the cracking towers every time we drive to Tecolote Beach. The tanker ships bring crude from the mainland to refine there for Baja.

bonanza bucko - 12-3-2010 at 08:58 AM

BTW:
I have been using PEMEX aviation gas for about 40 years and I have never had a problem with it.

The only threat to flight safety coming from PEMEX is a line guy fueling your airplane with JET-A...kerosene..while you go into the terminal for paper work and coffee. You gotta watch them. And you gotta watch them in the USA too because we have almost as many illiterate and dumb gas pumper here as they have there.

BB

durrelllrobert - 12-3-2010 at 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd

That the stuff is refined in Texas doesn't necessarily mean it comes with ethanol.
nothing in my post implied that it did :P

Cypress - 12-3-2010 at 12:11 PM

Why would PEMEX add ethanol to it's gasoline? As a matter of fact why would anybody add ethanol to their gasoline? Corn is for eating and alcohol is for drinking.

David K - 12-3-2010 at 12:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Why would PEMEX add ethanol to it's gasoline? As a matter of fact why would anybody add ethanol to their gasoline? Corn is for eating and alcohol is for drinking.


Only in the U.S.: "Stupid is as stupid does"*

(* F. Gump):lol::light:

MTBE

Bajahowodd - 12-3-2010 at 03:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Why would PEMEX add ethanol to it's gasoline? As a matter of fact why would anybody add ethanol to their gasoline? Corn is for eating and alcohol is for drinking.


MTBE is a fuel additive that while it provided cleaner exhaust, was deemed to have too many health risks. It was found that ethanol performed nearly the same task and had no health risks. That said, although there are still maybe 2000 stations nationwide that pump ethanol free gas, many or most are "unbranded". And in states such as California, TX and NY, you will find no ethanol free stations. In California, in particular, if you want to blame someone, go to the California Air resources Board.

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may2006/tc200...

And, Doug, I accept your superior knowledge about additives. Just that since I'm quite cynical about Big Oil, I preferred my version!:P

Cypress - 12-3-2010 at 03:14 PM

Bajahowodd, Thanks for the reply. If ethanol is such a great fuel why does the govt. subsidize it? It ought to be able to hold it's own in the "free market". But is there any such thing as the "free market" in these times?

Bajahowodd - 12-3-2010 at 03:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Bajahowodd, Thanks for the reply. If ethanol is such a great fuel why does the govt. subsidize it? It ought to be able to hold it's own in the "free market". But is there any such thing as the "free market" in these times?


Good point. My take on it is that farm state legislators are mostly to blame. Call it "pork". For that matter, all kinds of crops get federal subsidies. Seems to me that something is upside down about free markets.

Baja&Back - 12-3-2010 at 04:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bonanza bucko
The "environmental threat" that the EPA, policoholes and yer basic urban libhole blatt about is BS....we now have long range offset drilling that would allow such things as drilling off Santa Barbara without a platform out there and etc. We have massive oil reserves inside the good ole USA....not to mention the oil shale deposits which pretty much comprise both of the Dakotas. We can be energy independent with such resources...and also with nuclear power if we will stop being PC, "nice" and stupid....if we stop listening to scam and scare artists like those who populate most of our legislative parlors.



Why drill for more? Almost the entire oil output of Iraq has come to the USA since the day troops took Basra.

Cost? Nothing (gotta pay for the war:lol:)

Source: impartial BBC, not CNN.

woody with a view - 12-3-2010 at 04:31 PM

define cost=nothing. are we not paying for their oil at market prices, on top of the costs to "free" I-Yak?

winter blends are known to be widely variable versus summer blends. do you think the oil co's didn't notice?

monoloco - 12-3-2010 at 05:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Bajahowodd, Thanks for the reply. If ethanol is such a great fuel why does the govt. subsidize it? It ought to be able to hold it's own in the "free market". But is there any such thing as the "free market" in these times?
I can't think of one energy source that's not subsidized by the government in some way. Well, maybe charcoal.

Cypress - 12-3-2010 at 05:22 PM

monoloco, One hand subsidizes, the other hand taxes. :?:

BajaNomad - 12-4-2010 at 02:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Baja&Back
Doug: There is a refinery in La Paz. It's not just a depot. I have asked Pemex employees. We see the cracking towers every time we drive to Tecolote Beach. The tanker ships bring crude from the mainland to refine there for Baja.
Barry - hope you're doing well sir. :)

Must've been a miscommunication, or someone playing games with you on this one. There's no gasoline being refined (and likely nothing else) in Pichilingue/La Paz. It's a storage terminal.

Pemex has six refineries in Mexico - and owns 50% of the Deer Park Refinery in Texas. Used to have a comparatively very small seventh refinery in Reynosa, but I'm not sure what the status of that facility is today. They're looking to build another refinery somewhere (with similar production as the current 6) in the next year or two. The last two refineries were opened in 1979.

At least 95% (if not 100%) of the crude oil in Mexico is in the Gulf Coast - or central mainland. There are pipelines that bring it (crude/product/other) to Salina Cruz (Oaxaca) - where it would be refined, not placed on a ship to be refined elsewhere after passing through Salina Cruz. Most, if not all, of the production in Salina Cruz is something other than gasoline. Most (if not all) gasoline on the west coast is imported. Salina Cruz is the only Pemex refinery on the west coast. Much of Pemex's tanker fleet (of 20 - both leased and owned) appears to operate along the west coast. For the Baja peninsula, product comes is delivered at Rosarito and La Paz. The Rosarito facilty has a pipeline to Mexicali (10") and Ensenada (8").

btw... Crude oil, with very little exception (.005%-.01%) is transported via pipeline in Mexico.

For reference:
http://www.ref.pemex.com/index.cfm?action=content&sectio...
http://www.pemex.com/files/content/6_MLab_2009.pdf
http://eleconomista.com.mx/corporativos/2010/05/26/pemex-gas...
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/Mexico/Full.html
http://countrystudies.us/mexico/78.htm
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN3042636920080730
http://www.sciencephoto.com/images/download_lo_res.html?id=8...

-
Doug

[Edited on 12-6-2010 by BajaNomad]

OilSector2.JPG - 50kB

TMW - 12-5-2010 at 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
That said, I've always gotten a chuckle when watching TV commercials where the various brands claim special additives to their gas, when virtually all the stations in my area have their gas delivered in unbranded trucks that fill from a central terminal. In other words, it's all the same.


The additives are added depending on where the delivery goes. Consumer Reports did a piece on this some time ago. They also suggested using a tank of brand name gas (with additives) every 3 or 4 or so tank fulls to keep the engine clean. Ethanol replaced MTMB or what ever it was to reduce emissions.

BajaNomad - 12-5-2010 at 02:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TW
Ethanol replaced MTMB or what ever it was to reduce emissions.
While MTBE was found to have many advantages when used as the fuel oxygenate - it also ended up causing a lot of environmental issues, especially in the groundwater. That's why Ethanol has ended up replacing MTBE. Mexico is now switching from MTBE to Ethanol (produced domestically) in the gasoline for Mexico City, Guadalajara and Monterrey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_tert-butyl_ether
http://www.petroleumworld.com/story08111114.htm

Timo1 - 12-5-2010 at 02:35 PM

Baja & Back
I hope the Iraqui dinar re-values very soon so the oil can flow

And it would make some very rich individuals that hold dinar