BajaNomad - Foreigners employing Mexicans in Baja

Foreigners employing Mexicans in Baja

jrbaja - 8-9-2004 at 08:10 PM

This is probably the wrong board to post this but there are a few who actually live here and know of what they speak.
My question is, do you as "legal" business owners include any type of profit sharing besides tourists tips for your "employees" ?
And do you pay for their IMSS medical insurance or an even better policy if there is one?
No offense is intended but I have seen many cases where the "foreigners" come in and start a successful business, hire the locals claiming they are "bettering" the locals lives by paying them $30.00 to $100.00 per week which they weren't making before.
This was fine except for the fact that because the "foreigners" are now there, the prices have all gone up so their money doesn't go nearly as far as it used to. In fact, the prices have gone up so much that they are limited to eating special things like meat and stuff once or twice a month.
Probably healthier for them anyway, right?
Except for one thing. Without happy employees, your business will eventually fail.
There may be a huge interest from the tourists but eventually, there will all of a sudden be a huge turnover in the employees, things will come up missing, and the "atmosphere" will all of a sudden be not so tranquillo.
I watched it a bunch with beeznesses down here and am curious how the current people who are business owners are dealing with "helping the Mexicans".

Bajaboy - 8-9-2004 at 08:47 PM

JR-

That is not a new problem. In fact, there are many cities here in the US with the same problem. San Jose has had a challenging time finding service empoyees. Also, they have had to provide housing assistance to attract teachers. I would call it a "middle-class" squeeze.

Zac

By the way, I do have friends who have a number of businesses in CSL and treat their employees very, very well. They understand the value of their employees and thus treat them accordingly.

Dave - 8-9-2004 at 09:48 PM

Two questions:

1. Just how much do you think that MEXICAN companies pay for similar labor?

2. You mentioned now that the "foreigners" are here prices have gone up. Just who raised them, and why?

Just a question Dave

jrbaja - 8-9-2004 at 09:57 PM

but with the defensive approach rather than an answer, well, you know what I'm saying, right?
How many local Mexicans do you get in the deli eating?
And I don't think it's because they don't like pastrami !
There's more to this after I hear some more answers. Nothing bad either. :light:

Dave - 8-9-2004 at 10:27 PM

I think they were both legitimate questions.

I can tell you this:

As a rule, gringos (at least the ones I associate with) pay more, some MUCH more than their Mexican counterparts. They also strictly adhere to all labor laws and pay all required benefits. If they don't they can be shut down.

Also QUALITY local labor in these parts is a rarity and is rewarded. Mexicans who can adapt to a U.S. work ethic are in high demand and can command top dollar. Local gringo employers will bid against each other to hire these folks.

The second question was certainly sarcastic but deserves an answer. How do gringos affect the price of food at the local market or taco stand? Could there be another dynamic at play? Maybe....greed? :biggrin:

Question #2

jrbaja - 8-9-2004 at 10:37 PM

Many of the prices in Rosarito doubled when Titanic came to town. I watched it happen. And when it was done, the prices didn't go back down.
Of course it's because of greed but the ones who really suffer are the ones who were hurting to begin with. The Mexicans.
Except for a few of the wealthy ones who own tourism related businesses or real estate who also doubled their prices.

"Also QUALITY local labor in these parts is a rarity and is rewarded". How so ?

See my earlier posts regarding "profit sharing" and "insurance" before talking to me about "quality" help.
Do you have a " foreman"? :biggrin:

Dave - 8-9-2004 at 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
Many of the prices in Rosarito doubled when Titanic came to town. I watched it happen. And when it was done, the prices didn't go back down.
Of course it's because of greed but the ones who really suffer are the ones who were hurting to begin with. The Mexicans.

My friend, it wasn't gringos who doubled the prices. It was......The Mexicans. Maybe you should start another thread entitled, Mexicans screwing themselves.

If you haven't noticed by now, it's what this country, the government and the oligarchy that runs it, specializes in.

Yep,

jrbaja - 8-10-2004 at 08:04 AM

and many of us are doing a fine job of following suit.
Which is why many of the local businesses are short lived.
Two wrongs don't make a right here either!

JESSE - 8-10-2004 at 11:33 AM

So we specialize in screwing ourselves Dave? is that what you are saying? is that what you tell all your Mexican neighboors?

[Edited on 8-10-2004 by JESSE]

And if that were truly the case,

jrbaja - 8-10-2004 at 11:40 AM

shouldn't we as "advanced" ( ahem!) gringos try and show a better example? :light:

I was hoping to hear from more of the business owners on this topic. I hope I haven't struck some nerves. :lol:

Germanicus - 8-10-2004 at 12:09 PM

Folks, this topic is very much related to the one I posted in the 'Question and Answer' section.
I easily can see that opinions are going 180 degrees apart > the one towards West, the other one towards East.
To my opinion it is not worth to fight over "who raised the prices".
They are increased and that's the fact everybody has to live with.
i.e. we do have a lot of Mexicans in our town here in Texas.
They are certainly earning less than an American counterpart.
But prices are not decreasing because of that.
The market is dictating the price. That's an old rule and true all over the world.
So, when Gringos are pooring in a certain area, the local Mexican fishmarket will increase its prices (as the owner sees a chance to make more profit with the Gringos)
So far JR is right. It's the Gringos.
But who is the one who gives a damn chit on his fellow buddies and whether or not they can afford?? It's the Mexican.
Well, each coin has two sides and from that perspective Dave is right.
Back to my example of our town.
The prices have doubled in the last 10 years here too.
But the store places ads with "" better quality and lower prices everyday"".
What is Wal-Mart doing all over the world? They are saying "we got Roll-Back-Prices""
Bull....! Even Wal-Mart is increasing the prices.
Well we have a saying for that.
You cannot run a profitable business by adding your own money always on top.
Then you better be a ladder manufacturer because everybody constantly has to buy new ladders for " always putting money on top of the old (debt)pile from yesterday" .

my question is: Do the Mexicans really appreciate a good salery?
With beeing faithful and loyal to the employer.
Do they honorate good treatment?
With coming to work daily and not, after they earned some good bucks making vacations for the next week and you are running into trouble with the work which isn't done?
I do not want to give me my own answer, better wait on your opinions, but I make a guess:
There are black sheep amoung each flock.
No matter whether that are US flocks or Mexican flocks.
Maybe that's why JR is always pointing his attention to having a reliable foreman who has to deal with these problems?
Did I catch the point?
You guys tell me!
Germanicus

Yep

jrbaja - 8-10-2004 at 12:47 PM

you got the point. And yes, most do appreciate generosity/fairness although it by no means applies to everyone. Foreman's advice needed here!
An example is when I ran const. crews in orange county .ca, I hired a lot of Mexicans and taught them carpentry. The reason I hired a lot of Mexicans was because the gringos were either too hungover to show up for work on Mondays, there were waves so they went to the beach, or they met some new chick.
This was very typical so I used the Mexicans who were legal and wanted to work. They generally learned faster too.
I had foremen who were paid quite well and everyone else got paid according to their worth. Not according to their color.
It worked out well and everyone was happy. Same applies down here.
I suppose it all boils down to who you are and how you treat other people.

HUH!!???

capt. mike - 8-10-2004 at 12:58 PM

how does an american citizen living and working in the U.S.A. become a "gringo" who doesn't show up for work??

JR - your obvious disdain for the real "gringo" architype has crept into your standard vernacular....a Freudian slip?

:no:

:moon:

Dave - 8-10-2004 at 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
So we specialize in screwing ourselves Dave? is that what you are saying? is that what you tell all your Mexican neighboors?

If you read the post carefully you would note that I said "The government and the oligarchy that runs it". I could be wrong but they sure look like Mexicans to me. You folks either enjoy getting screwed or have very short memories considering you just elected a PRI/gangster as mayor of Tijuana. So, which is it?

And I don't have to tell my Mexican neighbors, they tell me.

Hola Mike

jrbaja - 8-10-2004 at 01:42 PM

The use of the word "gringo" isn't necessarily bad. Just means norte americanos. And sorry, this thread applies to all foreign business owners and there are probably more Canadian ones in Mexico than gringo ones.
But, when it comes to "gringo" being applied to those "norte americanos" who are flakes, as in (spoiled rich kids with no responsibility) the term is used pretty negatively.
I thought we'd been through this before. :lol:

And besides that, rather than get an answer to the question, I am getting a lot of other questions and the subject being changed.
I have to laugh at people who own businesses down here, (and up there) that are not fair with their employees. They are constantly complaining about how things are stolen, people don't show up for work, many many problems arise including legal or even worse and they can't keep a good employee.
In my opinion, and I have personally been witness to many examples down here, is that the foreign owners come in with the idea of paying their employees as little as they can get away with.
And have a huge employee turnover because of the availability of workers.
But, it doesn't work like that. There is for one thing, a huge jealosy factor down here. And when many people who are poor, see this kind of foreign money pouring into an establishment, they want some. And one way or another, they get some. And then the problems start, and then more employees, and then no one will work for them anymore.

I'm not going to exactly spell out my own MO for dealing with this, but most of you should be able to figger it out.

And you don't hear me complaining about these people do you? :lol:

And Dave, the same problems and solutions apply to the successful Mexicano businesses. But this isn't about them.
I bet all your favorite established places to shop, eat, whatever, have had the same employees as when you first moved here! They are being treated fairly!

And besides, aren't you a Mom n Pop business with 1 or 2 employees that you obviously treat fairly?
Or, has there been a big turnover? :lol:

really, it ain't the gringos that are the bad "guys"...

flyfishinPam - 8-11-2004 at 01:00 PM

....for the most part the foreigners doing business need to adhere to
the law of the land more so than their Mexican counterparts, because
they are under the microscope with hacienda, immigration, etc. I
know this because I am one. So many times I hear of my Mexican
employer peers that they "can't pay", or pay part of what is owed, or disappear during the
qunicenal time period so as to aviod paying for awhile, or they promise more
than they can give...

I'm in the tourism industry, the only industry in Loreto. Mexico
has decided that tourism is going to be its "cash cow" so here I am
in the industry- I was once the exact kind of person that I now
market my services to- works out well knowing my target clientele...identify with your market, how brilliant! Most Mexicans have no real idea exactly WHO they're selling their wares/services to and this is a big part of failures but another subject for another hilo..

I came here for various reasons
that don't need to be gotten into, but I'm an employer- in downtown,
in public, not hiding from anyone as its all up and up. The kind of
jobs that I stimulate are ones that have existed before I even knew
there was a Loreto. For the most part, I broker pangueros.

In the past, these local independent guys fended for themselves,
underselling their product to get some money only to lose most of it
to expenses that they didn't project. They are and were not
businesspersons. I am one. I am in business for a profit- so shoot
me! I pay the highest wages to the best pangueros in Loreto and
they beat my door down for work. If I need a boat on the busiest
day of the summer, I get one because of my reputation to pay well,
pay on time...and PAY period. My "competition" (non foreign) cannot
say the same.
-I will be making some more waves on this issue (independent pangueros, their livelihood and the tourism industry exposed) in a couple of months as I work on a new project to promote these outstanding "cowboys of the sea" that I respect so much...so tune in- October 2004- I think you know where to find me-

The other branches of employees I retain are administrative and
artisan. I choose to take women on as artisans making fishing
flies. They work in their own homes, on their own time and for
piecework as spelled out in individual contracts that apply to the particular job order. I supply the training and all materials and tools. Good
opportunity for ladies who would otherwise not have it. And I also
have a secretary who really likes her work. She has helped me with the "interesting" Mex accounting laws, while
learning a new aspect of tourism from a gringo point of view- reservations, accounting, computer
layouts.. and there's room for advancement. She was in a series of "go nowhere"
jobs before (emloyed by Mexicans!) but now has a future to look forward to (with a foreigner! who's soon to be naturalized in a matter of weeks).

The wages I pay are above average and fair and in accordance to skill levels and enthusiasm. I pay on time and I pay
well. All of the requirements are fufilled, seguro social and
infonavit, vacation, aginaldo, and profit sharing as those are manditory by
law. In addition to their normal pay, I give "gratificacion" and
folks in business here will understand what that means. Has
something to do with the "ley federal del trabajo"... You never want to
put on record more than the minimum amount of pay, or you'll pay
dearly later on....I ain't kiddin' about this. in addition to these things I've told all you curious folks, I also offer to pay for (and have done so in the past) any
education that will advance their job skills, for example English
classes at the UABCS, or computer classes..as long as the educator will provide me with a factura so that I can write it off...

but I;m not the only generous and fair gringo employer. I believe
most of us are. I like most of the others are following the rules that were set before we even
stepped foot here. Again, I'm in business for a profit. Isn't
that what a business is for?

well..the fish are calling so I'd better get back to business..

fish ON!

Fly fishin' Pam

As far as what I was saying,

jrbaja - 8-11-2004 at 01:15 PM

This pretty much says it all.

"I pay the highest wages to the best pangueros in Loreto and
they beat my door down for work."

Good on ya Pam. Sounds like you are making a huge positive impact on the community while not changing to many things if any in a negative way.

Are they all eating peanut butter, tuna sandwiches and diet yoghurt yet? :lol:

Just teasing! :lol:

Which brings to mind a story. Later.

JESSE - 8-11-2004 at 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
So we specialize in screwing ourselves Dave? is that what you are saying? is that what you tell all your Mexican neighboors?

Dave, i am sorry your not up to date with the current political situation in Baja, and off course in Mexico, its far more complex than you understand and unfortunately i dont have the time to offer a complete explanation on the reasons why Hank won and the PAN lost. Its simply naive to say that Mexicans like getting screwed, and a little ignorant as well, i dont say i doubt your neighboors come up to you and say they like getting screwed, in fact i am positive they dont.

I tell you what, if i was living in the states and the U.S. was kind enough to have offer me the oportunity to start a business when i showed up there pretty much broke, i would at the very least be a little more grateful than you are, saying the people on wich nation i live and has given me the oportunity to start a business that otherwise it would have been impossible to open in my home nation like getting screwed, is not insulting to me, but to your neighboors, your suppliers, your customers, and your friends. I dont expect you to understand but if i was you i would keep my opinions about Mexican society to myself, i am sure the Mexican goverment people you have to deal with to work and live here would not be very pleased with your comments.

Have a good one.

JESSE - 8-11-2004 at 02:53 PM

The Mexican labor laws where created with "protection" of the worker in mind, by protection i mean that corporations and busineses in theory have a very hard time when it comes to firing a bad employee. Off course, Mexican companies and individuals have long ago figured out ways to fire or push people out who you did not need or where bad employees, the ways are not written anywhere but everybody including the workers know when they are being asked to leave.

The problem for foreigners is that as its all common to most of you, Mexican nationals and companies can get away with many things that foreing individuals and corporations can't, and workers know this, workers here know that if they are hired by a foreigner, he can truly make the laws work for him unlike with a Mexican company.

I know its not fair, but its the way it is.

So ya better

jrbaja - 8-11-2004 at 03:01 PM

friggen treat em right as Pam does. :light:

Dave - 8-11-2004 at 04:00 PM

I wasn't "given" the opportunity to start a business here. I "took", along with about $6,000.00 in corporation and other fees, the opportunity. I haven't been "given" anything here.

FACT: my first Mexican employee was paid over TWICE as much as she earned at the large Mexican owned grocery store along with all she could eat, two days off a week, 7 hour days and Mexican Social Security paid. (Employers are forced into profit sharing for their employees for your information) She spent much of her time talking to friends over her cell phone (which I can't afford), and at the business next door flirting with the 2 young Mexican men who work there. The 3rd (THIRD) time she arrived over an hour late she was "given" the opportunity to not return.

FACT: My second Mexican employee was paid over 3 (THREE) times as much as he formerly earned from his Mexican employer along with the same perks as above. I adjusted to the daily lateness. However I did object to not showing up at all without calling or any valid excuse. After being offered DOUBLE HOLIDAY PAY for working a holiday he (for the third time) did not show up for work. He was also "given" the opportunity to not return to work.

FACT: The Mexican woman who cleans at night unsupervised is paid $10.00 an hour, which is more than the minimum wage my daughter earns in the U.S. She is given any leftover bakery goods she wants but still I am losing some durable item nightly.

My conclusion? Money is not a motivator.

Start your own business here then talk to me.

The other half of the deli.........Joanne

Maybe you guys

jrbaja - 8-11-2004 at 04:04 PM

should have hired a "foreman" :lol:

Jesse brought up a great point!

flyfishinPam - 8-11-2004 at 06:04 PM

I for one couldn't be doing the same kind of business north of the border that I do here successfully in Loreto. Thanks for the opportunity Mexico! I LOVE living here.

Also, what is wrong with paying employees well for a job well done? Or in my case independent contractors? Before I explained to them that to charge $120 for a fishing trip isn't worth their time, they did just that. Do you think it is fair to keep hard working folks in the dark about basic business practice? for instance fishing as this is my business... if one charges say, $120.00 for a day of fishing which entails 8 hours guiding clients and another 2 hours of prepping the boat beforehand, then another 2 hours of cleaning, then pays out $70.00 in fuel and another $30 in employee fees that leaves the poor sap with $20! So JR do you think its fair to ask someone to work a 12 hour day for $20?? This is before he maintains his boat, pays the insurance, park fees, pesca fees, port captain fees, etc and before he is able to feed his family?? I think its wise to educate folks and allow them to make their own informed decisions. The presence of gringos is not at all bad. The captains sure are happy with the message that I've brought them, to work for a fair and decent wage.

JESSE - 8-11-2004 at 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
I haven't been "given" anything here.

I dont want to cause you problems by getting into details so lets just drop this discussion before it gets ugly for you.

JESSE - 8-11-2004 at 07:52 PM

The key thing here is to hire good people, and by that i mean good Mexican AND American people, many americans foolishly believe that Americans will be more dependable and honest than Mexicans, but they fail to know that many Americans that live here can?t hack it back home and are here because they can?t get their act togheter in the United States, so if you hire one of these guys you will end up wishing you hired a Mexican.

Markitos - 8-11-2004 at 08:16 PM

High five JESSE, once again it doesnt matter where your are or the color of your skin . There are good folks and there are bad folks. Even in the good ole USA it'shard to get rid of bad employees. Have you ever tried working in Hawaii? And thats in the USA. Sheesh !

Now Im in trouble

tim40 - 8-11-2004 at 08:24 PM

Treating people fare and with respect are table stakes the world over. All of us are visitors, even in our native lands, to one degree or another. I only have 1/2 dozen friends that are from U.S. and Canada that own businesses in Baja and mainland...they certainly live by my first line....

If you know example otherwise...(specifics) it would be an interesting read

Say what ?

jrbaja - 8-11-2004 at 08:36 PM

"So JR do you think its fair to ask someone to work a 12 hour day for $20?? " :?:

Does that mean you ? Or the captains that have been doing this all their lives? Or your secretaries? ? ?
Have you saved them from ? Poverty? Can they buy cars? TV's?, Spend time on the internet defending their position?
Can they do it on their own in case something happens to you as their saviour/business manager? Do they get a cheaper rate than Germanicus?

General Business

David K - 8-12-2004 at 12:11 AM

Pam just showed them they are worth MORE than $20 a day.... She also points out that $20 didn't include 'overhead'... So, they worked a long day and had nothing extra to show for it, it seems.

In 1973, we would hire a shark fisherman to take us out in his panga (from near Puerto Escondido) for dorado fishing. We would beach it on an island for lunch and my parents and I would snorkle for a while. It was great. I was 15, but seems to me his charge was $20. That was Ramon Villalejo... SallySouth knew him.

thee saviour? or savor? favor...

flyfishinPam - 8-12-2004 at 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
"So JR do you think its fair to ask someone to work a 12 hour day for $20?? " :?:

I don't know about being a saviour, but my points are that foreigners that invest in business in the baja are not all as bad as you make them out to be. change is inevitable and it seems to be what the local folks want. ask some of them sometime as I have. ever look at the Mexican news or periodicals, hear all the buzz about tourism being the financial saviour for this country? not my personal ideas, but i just happen to be in the business so i can speak from experience.

my employees have bought cars, air conditioners- some for the first time ever- and one is going to buy a house. they have been able to better their quality of life as they have told me so. perhaps material comforts are not your idea of quality of life but that's your opinion my particular employees have their opinion, and yes they are able to cruise the internet, especially the spanish chat sites as I've received messages from them while I'm at the office and at home. as far as them doing things on their own in case I;m away, of course I plan for that and if something happens to me..c'mon what kind of nit picky NOYDB question is that? and I never claimed to be a "saviour", only a good and benevolent employer who provides jobs that are quality positions. so where's YOUR business located? how many employees do you have? and what kind of quality positions do you provide? what kind of pay to you offer, benefits, advancements?? I'm curious to find out these answers as probably a few others are too.

Whoa there girl,

jrbaja - 8-12-2004 at 06:32 PM

I'm askin a question, not pointing fingers. I have stories to back up what I have seen. But, I have also heard a lot of complaining by foreigners (Los Barriles/Rosarito) who also deserve what they get.
I am happy to hear that you are a benefit to the community. I am not so sure about Dave benefiting the community but he employs so few Mexicans, no big deal. Great Pastrami and potatoe salad etc.
Dave has an ongoing theft problem apparently. Is this something that you have or are experiencing as well Pam?

JESSE - 8-12-2004 at 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
"So JR do you think its fair to ask someone to work a 12 hour day for $20?? " :?:

Pam,

I have to disagree AND agree with you here, i think investment is good as long as it truly trickles down to the general population, something that is not happening in Mexico right now, if you take a look at the levels of poverty, purchasing power, and overall prosperity of the Mexican people, you will see that Mexicans in general havent benefited much from the economic boom coming from NAFTA and the free market, in fact, the purchasing power of Mexicans is actually going down. The true winners in this economic bonanza are the Mexican and foreign corporations that do business here, they have managed to monopolized mom and pop businesess in Mexico in the same manner that Walmart is doing in the United States.

Where i do agree with you is that is not the foreing companies fault for doing great business down here, its the Mexican goverments fault for letting companies come down here and not creating an evironment for Mexican companies to compete with them, or at the very least start new businesses focused on supplying services or goods to foreign firms. Simply take a look at the maquiladora industry, while Mexico has managed to atract for decades these factories, most maquilas still have to buy most of their parts in asia, why? there are very few Mexican companies that make parts for the maquila industry, this is the complete fault of the Mexican goverment for not giving loans and tax breaks to small companies that could start to manufacture electronic components of the maquila industry, so we have billions of dollars of investments, and all we have to show for are low paying low skilled jobs that can be shipped quickly to China or India, when we should have by now thousands of Mexicans companies making chips, plastic molds, and all the electronic components that the maquila industry needs, that is the type of developemt that lifts a nation from poverty.

Its not that current development is bad, its simply that its not doing any good to the Mexican society as a whole, so why do it? all we have is the same standard of living, our banks now belong to foreign firms, and huge corporations have made mom and pop businesess close all over Mexico.