BajaNomad - Cascabeles (Rattlesnakes)

Cascabeles (Rattlesnakes)

Baja Bucko - 12-13-2010 at 07:11 PM

Have seen a bazillion rattlesnakes during my 40 yrs or so of traveling the Baja peninsula. I love them all-they are stunningly beautiful. From the the nasties of Sierra San Pedro Martir to the pretty ones of Tres Virgenes and La Purisima-seen really really big ones (atleast 6' and 5" in diameter!! in the lava beds around the volcano where there's a whole neighborhood of 'um to 2' little babies tho' cute and tiny very dangerous!!).

I just returned from a muletrip in the San Franciscos and thankfully it is winter time for these cold-blooded buddies and it was nice not having to tread carefully at night when heading to the bushes. Most of my trips are March-April-May and in March they are just starting to wake up and they are grouchy!!!! Most vaqueros let them be except when they are on the traveled path and then a quick rock takes them out....when it comes to well-used trails there is a no-nonsense attitude towards cascabeles...ie viveras.

I have been on numerous muletrips on ancient rarely-traveled paths and the rattlesnake coiled in the center of the path w a 500' canyon drop on one side and a straight up cactus patch on the other usually ends up escorted far and away by the use of the vaquero's mecate OR "rocked"....a very dangerous situation....

One trip in the San Borjas a friend decided he would walk to his tent sans flashlite-after all it was a full moon....he stopped midstride as his next step was right on top of a coiled rattlesnake which by the way was silent. Talk abt a heart attack.....

I used to sleep just out on the ground but nope, I rarely do that anymore....even the vaqueros are toting tents when they can. I have asked many times if the cowboys I was with knew personally of people getting snake bit. One guy knew of 4 people-one who died the others made it to Santa Rosalia. Carlos in Santa Marta showed me his great scar on his leg from his encounter w a rattlesnake...ugly scar. He was 5 hrs out of Santa Rosalia but got to the hospital.

Then there was the awful early 1970s death of a very experienced hiker who should have known better in the San Pedro Martirs....24 hrs from a helicopter and he died a horrible death.

I always wear my thick half-chaps from morning to bedtime in snake country and if it is snake season I watch where I step and put my hands when climbing. Have added cool collapsible Black Diamond hiking sticks to my stuff (they fit perfect behind my saddle!!!) and they are great for alerting snakes in the path or in tricky spots when climbing.

Then there was the time north of Santa Gertrudes on the way to San Borja when a certain "rockstar" vaquero had his son catch a 4' rattler and wrap it around his neck---oh the things to do to impress the damsels on muleback!!! Let's just say we had a discussion abt NOT doing THAT EVER AGAIN!!!!

I love snakes-all snakes but I respect the rattlesnake. It is good at what it does and very deadly. Never underestimate what the the bite can do especially in Baja. Anyone out and abt in the desert needs to always be on the alert.

Just my dos centavos worth-mileage may vary....

That is one major reason I never bring any of my dogs on these trips.....

:bounce:

LancairDriver - 12-14-2010 at 08:19 AM

Interesting take on the snakes. I have often wondered how many Baja natives and also dogs are bitten each year, and what is the survival rate. Particularly with the distances involved to get medical help. No helicopters to fly you to Yorba Linda Medical Center for treatment.

DENNIS - 12-14-2010 at 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LancairDriver
Interesting take on the snakes. I have often wondered how many Baja natives and also dogs are bitten each year, and what is the survival rate.

Lots of dogs, and most often right on the end of the nose since that's usually the closest part of a dog to a snake.
My vet says most dogs will survive a bite without intervention and I saw that happen last year.
My neighbor's stooopid dog got hit by a rattler and it ran home hyper ventilating and almost foaming at the mouth. She had an endless thirst as well. She got settled in and went through the night with some discomfort, mostly anxiety, and was almost new the following morning.
She got some free avoidance training on that one.

BajaGringo - 12-14-2010 at 09:36 AM

When we first started building here we saw rattlesnakes on a regular basis including a few who wanted to take up residence in the house before we got the doors on. All were moved a good distance away back towards the volcano. Once we moved into the new place and brought the dogs and cats we haven't seen any now in awhile.

One local here told me that the snakes really do not like cats and they are a good deterrent. Not sure if there is any truth to that theory but whatever it is they haven't been a problem...

Ron

bajaguy - 12-14-2010 at 10:20 AM

Next time you are at the Vet, check on getting the dogs and cats the rattlesnake Anti-Venom vaccinations.....slows down the toxic effects of a snake bite....but still need to get them to a Vet

monoloco - 12-14-2010 at 12:15 PM

A certain percentage of rattle snake bites will be dry bites so it is important to wait for the signs of envenomation before administering anti venom as the anti venom can cause serious side effects.

vandenberg - 12-14-2010 at 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
A certain percentage of rattle snake bites will be dry bites so it is important to wait for the signs of envenomation before administering anti venom as the anti venom can cause serious side effects.

Also, they will not inject the full amount of venom if the threat to them doesn't require it. One of the reason the little ones are dangerous. They haven't learned yet how to regulate their venom.

DENNIS - 12-14-2010 at 12:44 PM

Again, I'll refer to what my vet said..........ordinarily they won't use anti-venom on a dog down here, maybe because they rarely have it.
Anyway, he says the dogs chance of natural survival are good. Let nature be the doctor.

mcfez - 12-14-2010 at 02:29 PM

Interesting posts here (towards the bottom of the page).

http://www.theoutdoorsforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2...

My dog got it for 3 years. He got a minor bite before that

My current vet who has GSPs and hunts. She says all her dogs have been bit and she's never lost one. (of course they have a vet right there when it happens) Anyway, she recommends against it on the basis that we are likely over vaccinating our dogs and that there is still no objective, quantitative data regarding its effectiveness. She says all the information is still flowing from people who make money giving it. That said, I'm on the fence... I may go ahead and give the ol boy his booster even though I agree we are likely overvaccinating based on what I've read. I'd like to see vets offer affordable titers before just re-vaccinating. Best defense is don't get bit. The snake break clinics are a great thing.

I think the deal as to which species it works against is a bit complicated. My understanding is that it counteracts the hemotoxin that is typical of Western Diamonbacks and most other species. Mojaves have a neurotoxin that is not affected by the current vaccine (I hear they are working on it). It gets complicated because rattlesnake venom is a soup of some 20 proteins and while some species have nearly all hemotoxin, the Mojave is nearly all neurotoxin. However, most species have a mixture that is variable by population within a species as well as between species. The Pacific rattlers behind San Jacinto supposedly have relatively more neurotoxin than other pacifics. This accounts for much the wide variability of reactions to bites

David K - 12-14-2010 at 05:34 PM

Baja Bucko, you won a couple prizes at Itzel's dinner... one was a cirio (boojum) painting by Hugo Lopez... I took a couple photos of it, posted in the Itzel Update thread.

redhilltown - 12-15-2010 at 12:54 AM

I quite agree they are fascinating creatures and worthy of respect. Now that I am older (ahem), I use walking sticks ( ok ok ok...ski poles) for hiking and I've always wondered if they do any good as to whether a snake would hit them first before my leg entered it's strike zone... Either way I figure the poles are a bit more noise and warning and I feel a "bit" safer hiking alone.

To be honest, walking around downtown Long Beach where I live is a hell of a lot more dangerous!

TMW - 12-15-2010 at 09:49 AM

Several years ago a friend of mine was at Santa Veronica near Tecate and his dog got bit by a rattlesnake. Fearing the dog might die he took her to a vet in San Diego. The vet treated the dog with the anti-venom and the dog was OK but he said the vet bill was $5,000. Does that sound right? Knowing how much he loved that dog I never really questioned the cost.

Baja Bucko - 12-15-2010 at 09:59 AM

I sold a bird dog pup a couple of yrs ago to a man in socal. First hunting season was near El Centro. Within the hour the poor dog was snake-bit-nailed by what turned out to be the new "dreaded" mix-a cross between a Mohave Green and the pacific I believe, that's what the vet and DFG said. This guy poured over $8000 into saving the dog-had to sell his fishing boat but the dog survived. It was extremely ill for weeks.....

Up here in the Oregon high desert where we hunt chukars and on the Snake-Hells Canyon and Owyhees I've never had a dog hit by a rattlesnake-had a few misses as a dog was flying over boulders. The dogs I personally know that were bitten -one 4 times in the face (he was in bad shape for a month but survived -was at the vets within an hour!!) and the others never knew what got them as they were hit in the elbow area as they ran over rocks.

Now I just wait for first frost then go chukar hunting.

watizname - 12-15-2010 at 11:26 AM

Keep the roadrunners around with a little ball of hamburger once in a while. They are good snake birds. After a while, they will come right up to you for their little snack.

Mexitron - 12-15-2010 at 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
When we first started building here we saw rattlesnakes on a regular basis including a few who wanted to take up residence in the house before we got the doors on. All were moved a good distance away back towards the volcano. Once we moved into the new place and brought the dogs and cats we haven't seen any now in awhile.

One local here told me that the snakes really do not like cats and they are a good deterrent. Not sure if there is any truth to that theory but whatever it is they haven't been a problem...

I saw a documentary awhile back about the Saharan Desert cats (the wild versions of our domesticated cats) and they showed a cat going after what I recall was a cobra---the cats are so fast they would jump in and do their rapid-fire b-tch slap on the snake then jump back before the snake could do anything----after a few sessions of this beating the snake was worn out and the cat went in for the kill. Pretty amazing to see.

woody with a view - 12-15-2010 at 06:07 PM

in oct we were 15 feet from the sand on the bluffs. this 4' snake came crawling past Bia and when she yelled the local boys came running. before she could stop them they grabbed my shovel and you see the results. they said this snake is the only one worse than a rattler :lol:

is there such a snake?

i know rattlers have a triangle shaped head. this doesn't so i would have moved him into the rocks and let him go if given the chance. unfortunatley for the snake i was fishing off the rocks.....

[Edited on 12-16-2010 by woody with a view]

rsz_baja_oct_10_080.jpg - 36kB

DENNIS - 12-15-2010 at 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
they said this snake is the only one worse than a rattler :lol:

is there such a snake?

I think the Rattler is as bad as it gets around here.

Mexitron - 12-15-2010 at 06:29 PM

Here's a video of a cat going after a snake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPjp2AkoBA

Mexitron - 12-15-2010 at 06:32 PM

Could that be coral snake Woody? We usually see sidewinders along the coastal bluffs but I think they have triangular heads (?)

Pacifico - 12-15-2010 at 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
in oct we were 15 feet from the sand on the bluffs. this 4' snake came crawling past Bia and when she yelled the local boys came running. before she could stop them they grabbed my shovel and you see the results. they said this snake is the only one worse than a rattler :lol:

That looks like a golpher snake...... Rattlesnakes are the only poisoness snakes in Baja according to the reptile books that I have. As far as coral snakes go, the Arizona coral snake is found in Mexico but only on the mainland....

Snake

tehag - 12-15-2010 at 08:14 PM

That head probably came from a Baja California gopher snake. Non-venomous. Won't bite unless handled.

DENNIS - 12-15-2010 at 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tehag
That head probably came from a Baja California gopher snake. Non-venomous. Won't bite unless handled.

Do they have fangs or teeth?

woody with a view - 12-15-2010 at 08:35 PM

didn't see any fangs. i was BUMMED when i came back. the body was gone but the head was right were it detached..... the boys put it in my fire pit and it went up in smoke that night.

goldhuntress - 12-15-2010 at 10:22 PM

Too bad about the beheaded snake. A lot of people seem to want to cut off snakes heads. I wonder what that's all about. I don't necessarily like snakes but I also don't have the urge the head off when I see one. Why not just leave them alone? Or if they're being a problem, relocate them.

TMW - 12-16-2010 at 09:59 AM

I agree it looks like a golpher snake. A coral is has red, yellow and black markings. "Red to yellow, kill a fellow; red to black, venom lack," is a saying you can go by. But I wouldn't kill it just move it. Coral has red to yellow. A king snake for example does not, they may look similar but are not.

David K - 12-16-2010 at 10:04 AM

Wow... and gopher snakes keep rattlesnakes away, too.

DENNIS - 12-16-2010 at 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
I agree it looks like a golpher snake. A coral is has red, yellow and black markings. "Red to yellow, kill a fellow; red to black, venom lack," is a saying you can go by. But I wouldn't kill it just move it. Coral has red to yellow. A king snake for example does not, they may look similar but are not.

WOW.....I hope I don't get this confused with, "Red sky in the morning......blahblahblah." :lol:

DENNIS - 12-16-2010 at 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Wow... and gopher snakes keep rattlesnakes away, too.

I think we are conditioned by our parents and peers at an early age that "Snakes are bad." No further snake education and this is what happens. Too bad, but not completely senseless. It's a consequence of our abbreviated education on snakes.
There is plenty of free, illustrated material online to further our snake familiarization and it should be high on the list of things to do before entering their habitat.
That's what the Dalai Lama would do. :biggrin:

Peloncito - 12-16-2010 at 11:52 PM

The beheaded snake does look like a gopher snake for sure and yes, the triangular shaped head is usually a dead give away for a poisonous snake. I also just read that mountain king snakes (which look a lot like a coral snake with opposite banding) and California king snakes are immune to the venom of a rattlesnake and actually will eat them. Of course , I am sure that is a size relationship appropriate statement.

Marc - 12-17-2010 at 10:27 PM

While running up Strawberry Canyon just above the UC Berkeley campus a few years back I almost ran over a Rattler. It was coiled up in the middle of the path like he owned it. I guess he did!

Did you eat that dinner?

mcfez - 12-18-2010 at 10:15 AM

My Dad used to take my brother and me hiking/camping up into the San Gabriel Mountains......in the Mt Wilson range. Once in a while we come across a rattler. If it was on the trail...we just use a "Y" tree branch to secure the little beast....then throw him over the side of the trail. If a snake was in our camp area.....dinner.

Snake is a real treat to eat.

Here's a link on some deep fried cooking of snake:
http://www.wikihow.com/Cook-a-Snake

If you ever had deep fried gator...its bout the same.

TMW - 12-19-2010 at 10:29 AM

There is or was a meat market in Ramona near San Diego that sells rattlesnake meat. It's about $20/lb. Comes skinned, coiled and frozen. No head.

David K - 12-19-2010 at 10:35 AM

Iowa Meats in San Diego (Mission Gorge Rd. near I-8) and Tip Top Meats in Carlsbad (just off Palomar Airport Rd. by I-5) both sell 'exotic' meat... I didn't see rattlesnake, but you could call and ask or maybe 'special order' some?

Barry A. - 12-19-2010 at 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
There is or was a meat market in Ramona near San Diego that sells rattlesnake meat. It's about $20/lb. Comes skinned, coiled and frozen. No head.

Chicken is a LOT cheaper!!! and it has no head either. :lol:

Barry

DENNIS - 12-19-2010 at 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Chicken is a LOT cheaper!!! and it has no head either. :lol:

Barry

At least not a head with anything in it. :lol:

[I just know that's what you meant, Barry...... :light:

]

woody with a view - 12-19-2010 at 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
There is or was a meat market in Ramona near San Diego that sells rattlesnake meat. It's about $20/lb. Comes skinned, coiled and frozen. No head.

Chicken is a LOT cheaper!!! and it has no head either. :lol:

Barry

and apparently it tastes just like rattlesnake!

fishingmako - 12-24-2010 at 01:01 PM

I had a Choc Lab up untill a month ago, he had a breathing problem, so I had to take him from us, I really loved that Dog.

I took him to a Rattlesnake School in Julian, they use live Rattlesnakes with cones it is really worth it to take your Dog to a School, they will definitely avoid any snakes after this course.

The course is about 45min the cost use to be $60.00

goldhuntress - 12-24-2010 at 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishingmako
I had a Choc Lab up untill a month ago, he had a breathing problem, so I had to take him from us, I really loved that Dog.

I took him to a Rattlesnake School in Julian, they use live Rattlesnakes with cones it is really worth it to take your Dog to a School, they will definitely avoid any snakes after this course.

The course is about 45min the cost use to be $60.00

First, so sorry for your loss. That decision is the most difficult, heartbreaking thing I can think of.
Very good info you've shared. I've been wondering what to do about this rattlesnake issue. I wear snake guards but worry all the time about my dog. I've already looked up a couple schools and sent emails for more info. I'm also checking into the vaccine, you can't be too careful when it comes to your loved ones.

bajalinda - 12-26-2010 at 12:33 PM

The first time I ever saw a dog that had been bitten by a rattlesnake was in northern California - it was my next door neighbor's dog and her vet told her to give the dog aspirin and just let it be. The dog developed a large sack under its neck - kind of like what you would imagine a goiter to look like on a dog - it really took it easy for a day, resting and sleeping, and then it was fine, back to its usual self - and the sack disappeared.

Since then, I have seen 2 other dogs here in BCS that were bitten by rattlesnakes - they both also developed the sack under the neck thing and were given aspirin and also an antihistamine. It also took them about a day to recover.

Just putting this out there, FYI, if ever you are far from a vet and your dog has the misfortune to be bitten by a rattler, you might want to try this - that's what I'd do.

durrelllrobert - 12-26-2010 at 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bucko
I sold a bird dog pup a couple of yrs ago to a man in socal. First hunting season was near El Centro. Within the hour the poor dog was snake-bit-nailed by what turned out to be the new "dreaded" mix-a cross between a Mohave Green and the pacific I believe, that's what the vet and DFG said.

in 10 years of chukar and quail hunting in eastern Kern county with my German short Hair, we never came across a sidewinder or a Mohave green, even though the local clinc kept a supply of anti-venom for both. However, I once came across an open tackle box with a used snake bite kit in it alongside a creek. The tackle box had the owners name on it and I took his rod/reel and box to the clinc in Ridgecrest to inquire if they ha a snake bit case and was told "yes, a Mojave green biet 3 days ago and the patient was dismissed a day later"