BajaNomad - Power of attorney

Power of attorney

tehag - 12-20-2010 at 04:07 PM

Anyone had personal experience in transferring title of Mexican property through use of a power of attorney?

The transfer is from an American who can't get to Mex to a Mexican citizen, using a third party with power of attorney. As far as the sexual orientation of lawyers goes, I have no interest. I am seeking input from someone with actual personal experience using a Mexican power of attorney in a real estate deal. We have the forms and know where the consulates are.

[Edited on 12-21-2010 by tehag]

DENNIS - 12-20-2010 at 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tehag
Anyone had personal experience in transferring title of Mexican property through use of a power of attorney?

Doesn't work. I won't try to explain how and why I know that, but it's just another example of Smoke 'n Mirrors....a common Ejido ruse.
Ask a lawyer. If you find a real one with real answers, and I'm wrong, I'll pay his fee.

mcfez - 12-20-2010 at 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by tehag
Anyone had personal experience in transferring title of Mexican property through use of a power of attorney?

Lawyers.....hoars. Sorry....

I would start with a Notary Public.....

bajalou - 12-20-2010 at 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mcfez

Lawyers.....hoars. Sorry....

I would start with a Notary Public.....

??? Mexico doesn't have Notary Publics. They have Notarios which are special lawyers that handle real estate transactions and a few other things. Quite a bit different.

mcfez - 12-20-2010 at 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou

Quote:

Originally posted by mcfez

Lawyers.....hoars. Sorry....

I would start with a Notary Public.....

??? Mexico doesn't have Notary Publics. They have Notarios which are special lawyers that handle real estate transactions and a few other things. Quite a bit different.

Okay.....less Gringo English..it's Notario Publico...Notary Public

A Notario Publico in Mexico may

• be an arbitrator

• be a mediator

• issue judicial opinions

• intervene in judicial proceedings

• ensure that documents such as bylaws of companies, wills, deeds, powers of attorney, real estate purchases and establishments of trusts do not include any legal inconsistencies

• ensure payment of taxes

• protocolize public deeds

In Mexico, the incorporation of every company, the buying and selling of all types of real estate, the establishment of deeds and wills, the creation of mortgages, among other transactions, must be protocolized by a Notario Publico.

Bla bla and more bla. Notary public is how my group calls em.

[Edited on 12-21-2010 by mcfez]

DENNIS - 12-20-2010 at 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mcfez
Lawyers.....hoars. Sorry....

I would start with a Notary Public.....

Either way. All he wants is a knowledgeable answer to a question.
I know the answer, but I'm no authority.

I have a feeling that there are others on this board who would also like to know [quietly].....perhaps after the fact of their commitment.

DENNIS - 12-20-2010 at 07:20 PM

It just occured to me that I'm assuming tehag is NOT a Mexican national and is confined to Fideicomiso or Corporation.

I'll just continue to assume that unless otherwise told differently.

Scorpimon - 12-20-2010 at 07:55 PM

If you are talking about using an Apostille, I have just went through the process. Both seller and buyer in the US giving Power of Attorney to different agents in Baja for the purchase of Baja house transferring the Fideicomiso. The process seems to have worked well for me. Had to get the Apostille twice because of a wrong word.

Ernie

Loretana - 12-20-2010 at 08:07 PM

We transacted the sale of lot in Loreto from a US citizen to us, (US citizens) using an Apostille with no problems. See Alexander, he's done it lots of times.
The sellers had their Apostille validated in the state of Washington, and ours was done in Oregon.

Alexander Real Estate and Investments
www.loretorealty.com
613-135-0212 office
613-104-3625 cell

DENNIS - 12-20-2010 at 08:28 PM

You all can get as involved as you see fit with Apostiles or whatever, but for a foreigner, control of that property won't be realized without getting a Fide or buying through your Corporation. Don't kid yourselves or be misled...there's no other way around it.
The scam has been alive for decades here that a Power of Attorney is a legal substitute for the Fide. It isn't. It's a meaningless instrument for I don't know what if not only to appease a buyer with false peace of mind in a land purchase.

Wait until you have to show that Power of Attorney to a judge in a land dispute. He'll laugh you out of the room.

woody with a view - 12-20-2010 at 08:32 PM

that's what we love about Dennis. always low key, just the facts.....

DENNIS - 12-20-2010 at 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
that's what we love about Dennis. always low key, just the facts.....

Can't talk. I'm hyperventilating.

toneart - 12-20-2010 at 09:56 PM

Dennis is absolutely correct!

Advice I would give to Tehag:
You need to be there...present all during the transaction.

Working through third party Power of Attorneys with apostles and through consulates will not serve you. They will assist, however, in transferring your money to someone else. When the fit hits the shan, you have no protection.

All legal transactions are handled by and through Notarios. You can pay an attorney to look it over, but that is very iffy. It depends on the attorney. In my opinion, that is just another way to throw money down a rat hole.

You need a fideicomiso or to be set up as a Mexican Corporation, and an FM3 or FM2. You can buy the property without those immigration documents but, again, you have no protection without it when the fit hits the shan.

You supposedly can get a clear title issued by an Ejido, but it needs to be approved by the whole Ejido, not an individual. I don't really know the details of that as to the mechanics of the transaction or how secure the title would be if it ever went to court.

Mexico if full of nice people but vested trust is not their strong suit.

mcfez - 12-20-2010 at 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
Dennis is absolutely correct!

Advice I would give to Tehag:
You need to be there...present all during the transaction.

Working through third party Power of Attorneys with apostles and through consulates will not serve you. They will assist, however, in transferring your money to someone else. When the fit hits the shan, you have no protection.

All legal transactions are handled by and through Notarios. You can pay an attorney to look it over, but that is very iffy. It depends on the attorney. In my opinion, that is just another way to throw money down a rat hole.

You need a fideicomiso or to be set up as a Mexican Corporation, and an FM3 or FM2. You can buy the property without those immigration documents but, again, you have no protection without it when the fit hits the shan.

You supposedly can get a clear title issued by an Ejido, but it needs to be approved by the whole Ejido, not an individual. I don't really know the details of that as to the mechanics of the transaction or how secure the title would be if it ever went to court.

Mexico if full of nice people but vested trust is not their strong suit.

.....You supposedly can get a clear title issued by an Ejido, but it needs to be approved by the whole Ejido, not an individual.

Two witnesses I believe.

MitchMan - 12-20-2010 at 11:41 PM

Power of Attorney? If you are talking about an agent acting on your behalf at the actual closing so that you don't have to be there, sure, I've heard of many people having used one with success. BUT, I agree with others who are advising you to BE THERE instead of using an agent that you authorize via a Power of Attorney. In Mexico, it is wise not to trust anyone, especially when it comes to money, except when you absolutely have no other choice.

[Edited on 12-21-2010 by MitchMan]

gnukid - 12-21-2010 at 01:13 AM

no

DENNIS - 12-21-2010 at 06:07 AM

The original question, I believe, asked if a Power of Attorney could be considered adaquate to assume control over property in lieu of a Fideicomiso or purchase through a corporation. That is what I extrapolated from the question.
As I mentioned, this method has not been uncommon in the past and is still being used with the uninformed to this day.
Again, I say no, it cannot.

Using Powers of Attorney, Apostiles or whatever else comes to mind as tools toward the end of ownership through a bank trust or corporation has nothing to do with tehag's question. At least, that's how I see it.

PA

tehag - 12-21-2010 at 06:49 AM

Wow! Run with it guys.

A US citizen is transferring to a Mexican citizen a piece of fondo-legal real estate which has never been part of an ejido and is in trust with a valid fidiecomiso. The US owner of the trust is unable to go to the signing. He wants to appoint an agent to do the signing in his stead. I know the Mexican consulate has an in-house notario for just this sort of work. I know it is legal. I know it has been done. He has the forms and paperwork.

I asked for info about first-hand experience and got some, thank you.

oladulce - 12-21-2010 at 08:17 AM

Yes Tehag, we've used a power of attorney for real estate transactions 3 times when selling property and on 2 occasions when purchasing property. Before retiring, it wasn't always possible to get down to Mexico when it was time to sign.

On all occasions the power of attorney document was drawn up by the Notario who was handling the property transfer. In each case the Notario assigned another attorney in his office to be our signatory, assuming the Notario himself can't sign for you because of a conflict of interest.

There are a few ways to accomplish a Mexican "Poder Especial":

1. Option A- The Notario drafts the "Poder Especial" document and you go to his office and sign it in front of him. We've done this in the beginning of a property sale when we wouldn't be able to make it back for the final signing of the title transfer months, (or 2 years later in one instance).

1. Option B- The Notario faxes or emails the "Poder Especial" to you with the specifics of the real estate transaction. A couple of times we couldn't get to La Paz to that specific Notario's office, so once we drove from So. CA to Tecate and signed the POA in front of the Tecate Notario then DHL'd it to La Paz. Another time we took the POA to the Notario in Cd Constitucion to sign then put it on the bus to La Paz via BajaPak.

2. Option A - Get the POA from the Notario. (fax or emailed)
- Sign in front of a US notary public.
- Send the doc to county clerk for the county the notary is
located in for "Authentification" of the notary.
- Send the doc to the Secretary of state for the Apostille.
- FedEX/UPS or somehow ship the orginal doc with all the
stamps to the Mexican Notario.
* This method takes about 3 wks due to all the mailing
back and forth.

2. Option B - Get the POA from the Notario (fax or emailed)
- Go to San Diego county offices (downtown by the harbor)
- Sign the doc at the notary public in the courthouse building.
- Go downstairs to the county clerk's office to have the notary's
credentials authenticated.
- Leave your car in the county parking lot and walk a mile to
the California building and get the Apostille at the
Secretary of State office.
- Mail the doc to Mexico Notario.
* This method can be accomplished in one day.

2. Option C - One time the notary public at the San Diego county building would not sign the Mexican Power of Attorney because it was in Spanish and she wasn't "comfortable". We walked a couple of block in to downtown SD and had the doc notarized by a Notary public at a Mail Box etc-type place, then walked back to the county courthouse to the clerk's office and had that notary's signature authenticated. Then go to the CA building and the steps are the same.

Since then, we don't get the notary public signature at the county courthouse if the document is in Spanish since they seem to be a little pickier. Any SD (or whatever county they are located in) will do, as long as you go to the same county clerk.

U2u if you or your friend would like more info.

We learned all this over the years after alot of driving around and trial and error and I'd be happy to help .

DENNIS - 12-21-2010 at 08:35 AM

Thanks, tehag...........it's amazing what a few details will do to a request for info.

mcfez - 12-21-2010 at 08:37 AM

This topic just never finds conclusion

Therefor a warning to the new lessee or buyer reading these posts: take note of this post and ALL the other posts (find in search) on this board....you'll see a total disagreement by educated BN's ...on all matter of content concerning buying/leasing in Baja.

In plain English: doing a Mexican land transaction is tricky and confusing. Accept no advice from here at BN or from your friends/family. Find an expert on Mexican law.

DENNIS - 12-21-2010 at 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mcfez
In plain English: doing a Mexican land transaction is tricky and confusing. Accept no advice from here at BN or from your friends/family. Find an expert on Mexican law.

Yeah....really. Nomads are no different from any other group of ethnocentric Americans who only see what they want to see and know full well that their way is the only way.

.

[Edited on 12-21-2010 by DENNIS]

oladulce - 12-21-2010 at 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by mcfez
In plain English: doing a Mexican land transaction is tricky and confusing. Accept no advice from here at BN or from your friends/family. Find an expert on Mexican law.

Yeah....really. Nomads are no different from any other group of ethnocentric Americans who only see what they want to see and know full well that their way is the only way.

[Edited on 12-21-2010 by DENNIS]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing and felt compelled to write because Tehag wasn't getting alot of constructive responses.

Nope, I'm not an expert. Yep, I have personal experience with the procedure Tehag was referring to. He didn't request advice on conducting a Mexican real estate deal, he asked if anybody has done a Mexican POA before.

It has nothing to do with ejidos, scams, presta nombres, etc. He was just asking how to complete your real estate transaction if you can't physically be there when it's time to sign the papers.

DENNIS - 12-21-2010 at 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oladulce
He was just asking how to complete your real estate transaction if you can't physically be there when it's time to sign the papers.

Had he been that explicit at the outset, I never would have responded.
I quoted his entire request above. It was vague at best.

oladulce - 12-21-2010 at 10:25 AM

I must have come in after Tehag had provided more details Dennis. I thought the "ethnocentric" comment was directed at me for some reason ( because of course, the world does revolve around me :rolleyes:

) and was surprised by the jab. Maybe has nothing to do with me at all...

DENNIS - 12-21-2010 at 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oladulce
I must have come in after Tehag had provided more details Dennis. I thought the "ethnocentric" comment was directed at me for some reason ( because of course, the world does revolve around me :rolleyes:

) and was surprised by the jab. Maybe has nothing to do with me at all...

Nah. Not you. I wouldn't take shots at you anyway.
It's just one of my pet peeves here from time to time, that some tend to interpret Mexico in a purely American way, most notably law. It's hard, if not impossible, for some to come to terms with the fact that US Law isn't universal.
Just me havin' one of them days.

Thanks.

mcfez - 12-21-2010 at 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

) and was surprised by the jab. Maybe has nothing to do with me at all...

I remember the very first question you aimed at me Dennis (bout the time I came back here as McFez).

"and do you think a lease is a good solid thing....
:coolup:

You liked my answer.

tehag

DianaT - 12-21-2010 at 12:17 PM

What Oladulce described is how we bought our property---only difference is we gave the power of attorney to our agent who represented us with the Notario--- the process was the same. And our agent told us we can do the same thing when we sell.

However, since a Mexican citizen is buying the property, the fideo will be closed out and we were very surprised to find out that there is a large fee for doing so----just something you might mention to your friend. I think the fee depends on how long the trust has been in place.

Dennis, your information I think was very good even if it did not answer what Tehag was looking for. It seems to be a rather common practice for people to buy ejido property with holding the title paper and a power of attorney---we have heard it is legal, but safe is another question.

Then again, everyone has their level of risk tolerance, but as you said, some tend to bring US legal thinking to the table and that won't work.

DENNIS - 12-21-2010 at 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
It seems to be a rather common practice for people to buy ejido property with holding the title paper and a power of attorney---we have heard it is legal, but safe is another question.

I already spoke to that, but I'll add a sidebar.
What is "legal" is another American preconception and we tend to equate that word to "right" and "wrong." Not so much in Mexico it seems. We can hear the stories all too often about someone, Mexicans included, buying land that didn't belong to the seller. We're told of the legal efforts to protect the new owner as well as efforts to protect the old, rightful owner. All of the attorneys are getting fat and eventually the arguement will be decided behind closed doors one way or the other.
In cases where the land is bought or sold illegally or erroneously, we never hear of charges being filed against the wrongful buyer or seller. They seem to drift off into the sunset, lost in indifference.

Quote:

"we have heard it is legal, but safe is another question."

Legal doesn't matter in this case. The buyer can't defend his purchase in court. He loses.
This is the scenario which I alluded to above. It's an Ejido Sleight of Hand which can be nullified on a whim.

No Fide...No Corp.....No property ownership.

Caveat Emptor is the mantra of Mexico.

Dennis

DianaT - 12-21-2010 at 01:02 PM

Thanks, and you are correct, I was using the word legal in the US way----and it does mean nothing.

When my sister had to go through the Mexican Court System, it was a real lesson in property law in Mexico, and her case was against another gringo who had what we in the US would say clearly cheated her and was guilty of fraud.

She won the case, but at times it was touch and go and as her attorney told her, there really are no absolutes and the judge has enormous power.

DENNIS - 12-21-2010 at 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
the judge has enormous power.

Almost as much as "Dead Presidents." It's common knowledge here that when a case has grown to a point that it must be decided in Mexico City, the advantage goes to the first representative to reach DF with a bag of money.
Campaign contributions can have a similar effect in the States, I suppose.

DianaT - 12-21-2010 at 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
the judge has enormous power.

Fortunately her case was settled in Baja and she is happily living in her home that she won back.

[Edited on 12-21-2010 by DianaT]

Notarios and putas

C-Urchin - 12-23-2010 at 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by mcfez
Lawyers.....hoars. Sorry....

I would start with a Notary Public.....

Just stay away from "Fast Eddie"

DENNIS - 12-23-2010 at 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by C-Urchin
Just stay away from "Fast Eddie"

For sure. "Fast Eddie...The Ejido Mascot and Cheerleader." :cool: