BajaNomad - Guess Where/ What Game (mission sites Ligui, Dolores, La Pasion)

Guess Where/ What Game (mission sites Ligui, Dolores, La Pasion)

David K - 12-29-2010 at 03:13 PM

I was glad to see Bernie revitalize this game, as we used to do it a lot many years ago here and on Amigos de Baja.

This is a historic site in Baja... what is it/ where is it?

In 2009:

(the spot is to the right of my truck)

In 2001:

Hint... it looked like this 35 years ago:

Near to that spot, the locals made this monument:

[Edited on 1-3-2011 by David K]

sanquintinsince73 - 12-29-2010 at 04:53 PM

Sta. Veronica?

David K - 12-29-2010 at 04:56 PM

Nope... hint #1: It is in Baja California Sur

Jack Swords - 12-29-2010 at 05:46 PM

I photographed that same same rock.

b1 - 12-29-2010 at 05:57 PM

The bottom picture with the cross looks like the one in the arroyo on the dirt road between Ligui and Ensenada Blanca. b1

ncampion - 12-29-2010 at 06:11 PM

Some old mission ?????

David K - 12-29-2010 at 06:22 PM

b1 and ncampion are both correct... Maybe I should still ask them to come up with a 'complete' answer?

Marc - 12-29-2010 at 08:54 PM

The bottom picture with the cross looks like the one in the arroyo on the dirt road between Ligui and Ensenada Blanca. Where there is some old mission ?????

Is that complete enough?

David K - 12-29-2010 at 10:30 PM

No Marc... you must put more 'feeling' into it...

"some old mission" doesn't quite bring the dreams of the Jesuit padres alive, or the work of the neophyte laborers into the realm of importance of early California history.

The mission was the THIRD Califronia mission founded by the Jesuits, in 1705!

Here is my brief history clip from http://vivabaja.com/bajamissions :

San Juan Bautista de Ligui/ Malibat 1705-1721
Originally home to the Monqui Indians who called the site Ligui. The Cochimi called the site Malibat and soon replaced the Monqui at San Juan Bautista. The site proved to be a poor location and was abandoned in favor of establishing a new mission at Apate (Los Dolores). The arroyo undermined the mission site and only some rubble from the foundation was visible in 2001. GPS: 25°44'22.2" 111°15'51.0"

[Edited on 12-30-2010 by David K]

David K - 12-30-2010 at 10:58 AM

I might add that when I returned to the spot in 2009, nothing remained in the arroyo of the mission foundation blocks. Preserved with photographs.

Here is the INAH floor plan of the Ligui mission before the arroyo swallowed it up... only the corner was lost then:

left:

right:

#2 Guess Where/ What... Bajatripper Wins!

David K - 12-30-2010 at 11:02 AM

These are the ruins of The Los Dolores mission site 'Apate', about 3 miles inland from the coast... between Loreto and La Paz.

Added following Bajatripper's correct guess (below):

Nuestra Señora de los Dolores Apate 1721-1741*

Originally established close to the gulf coast, Dolores was soon moved to this spot about 3 miles west. *In 1741, a third move was made to the Dolores visita of La Pasion in the region called Chilla (see below).

Los Dolores is often called 'Dolores del Sur' because the Jesuits planned for a future mission of 'Dolores del Norte' (see Santa Gertrudis).

This mission and San Pedro Martir are the only two not accessed by an automobile road. GPS: 25°03'19.0" 110°53'03.3"

[Edited on 1-3-2011 by David K]

BAJACAT - 12-30-2010 at 11:29 PM

I think is near San Javier mission some type of Visita, not sure..

David K - 12-31-2010 at 12:28 AM

Nope, but good guess! You are thinking of La Presentacion... see photo of it at http://vivabaja.com/missions3

This is south of Ligui, the first guess location.

Bajatripper - 1-2-2011 at 01:34 PM

My first guess was San Bruno, but after more careful reading of what you've provided in the description, I see that it is south of Ligui, which San Bruno certainly isn't. That said, I'd then guess Dolores mission since I know it isn't San Luis Gonzaga, which I have visited.

On the first photo, you state that the arroyo had finished off what you found there in 2001. Given that these ruins were almost three centuries old, I wonder if they have been lost forever, or just covered up with a layer of sand. Perhaps I will go to that arroyo on my return trip this week with that pathetic little collapsible shovel of mine and do some digging at the coordinates you provide. That mezquite should provide a good reference.

Thanks for the interesting stuff, David. Always appreciated.

[Edited on 1-2-2011 by Bajatripper]

BajaBlanca - 1-2-2011 at 04:03 PM

really interesting and I sure hope that sand only covers it - and I wish that we could preserve the past better - this is history at it's BEST. Thanks David !

David K - 1-2-2011 at 05:06 PM

De Nada amigos!

The Ligui mission site was next to the arroyo, too close! In the 1975 photo and floor plan, a corner of it was lost to the growing arroyo... and a tree was growing from inside... The hurricane floods of summer/ fall 2001 finished it off... The photo I took in December, 2001 shows some of the foundation mortor and blocks in the arroyo... lots of other rocks...
The photos from 2009 saw no remaining mortored stones... locals may have picked them up, or they may be under the sand or maybe washed to sea...

Steve, yes... the second set of photos is the Los Dolores mission site of 'Apate'... about 3 miles from the beach. It was in a very difficult location at the bottom of that canyon and to this day remains one of only two Baja missions that cannot be reached by automobile and a short walk or less.

The mission was moved up, and west... closer to the San Luis Gonzaga mission at a site called 'Chilla' where there was a Dolores visita of 'La Pasion'. The mission was still 'Los Dolores', but to differentiate this new site... often was called La Pasion by the padres and to this day often erroneously called a seperate mission from Dolores.

Many missions were moved after their original founding location, usually for better water sources or other conditions required it.

Only a few remained in their original location through-out their operating period... these that were not moved in Baja Sur include: Loreto, Mulege, Guadalupe, San Ignacio and San Luis Gonzaga... Ligui too, because when it was closed, the Spanish name 'San Juan Bautista' did not continue on at the new location. It got a new name: Nuestra Señora de los Dolores.

There are many 'gray areas' in the Baja California or Old California mission history that have been interpretted in various ways by various authors.

BAJACAT - 1-2-2011 at 07:11 PM

David I can find Nuestra senöra de Dolores in Dave's Werschul Saints and Demons, book

David K - 1-2-2011 at 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BAJACAT
David I can find Nuestra senöra de Dolores in Dave's Werschul Saints and Demons, book

I am guessing you meant "I can't find..."?

On page 181, at the bottom and then details go on to page 184. It is titled 'Mision Dolores del Sur' and covers both the Apate and La Pasion (Chilla) sites.

Los Dolores was often called Dolores del Sur because there was a planned mission of Dolores del Norte. That name was later changed when funds were donated for the new mission to Santa Gertrudis. Some maps and books have erroneously labled San Pablo (a visita east of Vizcaino and down from San Francisco de la Sierra) as well as a random spot in the desert as 'Mision Dolores del Norte' (in addition to Santa Gertrudis). The residents of San Francisco de la Sierra told outsiders in the 1960's that walls in their village were the remains of 'Dolores', as well!

BAJACAT - 1-2-2011 at 10:55 PM

tHANKS David I got it, I don't know how I miss't it. Mission history is cool... If I go back in March I want to go to Santa Gertrudis..

David K - 1-2-2011 at 11:00 PM

De nada Jose... now what can we outdoor construction guys do to make money when it is raining???

BAJACAT - 1-2-2011 at 11:06 PM

I already have my sign to go to look for work at Home depot,,, :lol:

. ...
I looks like tomorrow is going to be another day off due to weather.

Jack Swords - 1-3-2011 at 11:05 AM

Keeping this going...

David, you have a photo of the ruins of La Pasion from the CD I sent you. Go ahead and post it as it's interesting what a herd of goats can do to ruins. We're headed up there again in a couple of weeks, I'll hit some other sites too. Going up to San Everisto, then wandering around a few days, then back to Las Pocitas and then La Paz. Things are pretty dry this year. Then up from San Blas to the mountaintop estancia of Mission La Paz. Fewer leaves means we can see more normally covered with brush.

Los Dolores Chilla (La Pasion)

David K - 1-3-2011 at 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Swords
Keeping this going...

David, you have a photo of the ruins of La Pasion from the CD I sent you. Go ahead and post it as it's interesting what a herd of goats can do to ruins. We're headed up there again in a couple of weeks, I'll hit some other sites too. Going up to San Everisto, then wandering around a few days, then back to Las Pocitas and then La Paz. Things are pretty dry this year. Then up from San Blas to the mountaintop estancia of Mission La Paz. Fewer leaves means we can see more normally covered with brush.

After 20 years on or near the coast, the Dolores mission was moved west in 1741 to the Visita de la Pasion, in the region called Chilla. Technically still the same mission of Los Dolores, once at the new site, the location was generally called La Pasion by the Jesuits.

In 1950:

In 2000:

Above 3 photos from Jack Swords

The next three from Kevin Clough:

David K - 1-3-2011 at 12:21 PM

Map of the region of Dolores Apate, Dolores Chilla (La Pasion)and San Luis Gonzaga mission sites (all three in the top 1/3 of the map):