BajaNomad - FMM over and back

FMM over and back

capitolkat - 1-4-2011 at 12:48 PM

I have an FMM that is good for 180 days and doesn't expire until April. we are going to Phoenix in a week and driving and will return after 4 days. Can I just keep my FMM and not reapply when I return as it still has time on it??? thanks--

Bajatripper - 1-4-2011 at 01:14 PM

How would "they" know? I certainly wouldn't stop and ask Mexican immigration, since there is money to be made by taking your old one and selling you a new one. The only time I have had a problem was when I pulled an expired one out of my wallet by mistake. That error cost me $20 for not turning it in.

David K - 1-4-2011 at 03:14 PM

Let us know what happens when you go back for another one AFTER the 180 days expire... unless you turn the unused portion in after your second trip. The new FMM is designed to track your time in Mexico. You get ONE per year, and the days in Mexico are subtracted from 180, until you turn it back in. Do you get it back for the next trip that year or do you pay all over again?

180 days max. per year in Mexico for 'tourists' now. If you want to stay longer, they figure you must have a place there (property rented, etc.)... You are supposed to have an FM-3 or 2 once you no longer just go to Mexico as a tourist (on a vaction and stay in hotels or camping).

Hopefully, this nightmare is a joke like the FM-T before, required where and when ??? Nobody at the border gives a straight answer consistantly!

sancho - 1-4-2011 at 04:07 PM

DK, Absolutely no offense whatsoever, but what do you
base your theory on 180 days per yr./ 1 fmm per
person per yr. on? Can you point to a single individual
who has been denied entry into Mex because of a
previous fmm that has expired it's 180 life in a yr.?
Of course you can't, the' Tourist Card', fmt now fmm,
is the same. Can't say what will happen down the
line, but fmm's are being issued at will,
one expires, get a new one. I've seen you post this
info before, it is incorrect. If not, please give an
example. There was confusion, rumors when the fmm came
out 5/1/10, but as it is being currently applied
there are no restrictions

David K - 1-4-2011 at 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho
DK, Absolutely no offense whatsoever, but what do you
base your theory on 180 days per yr./ 1 fmm per
person per yr. on? Can you point to a single individual
who has been denied entry into Mex because of a
previous fmm that has expired it's 180 life in a yr.?
Of course you can't, the' Tourist Card', fmt now fmm,
is the same. Can't say what will happen down the
line, but fmm's are being issued at will,
one expires, get a new one. I've seen you post this
info before, it is incorrect. If not, please give an
example. There was confusion, rumors when the fmm came
out 5/1/10, but as it is being currently applied
there are no restrictions

From reading, and the only reason for the change given... to track the time we are in Mexico... to make sure that those non-Mexicans who have second (or first) homes in Mexico all have an FM-3 or 2 and not using a tourist card for each 180 days, going across the border on day 180 and getting another one for 180 more days...

Naturally, when we go only into the border zone (Maneadero, San Quintin or the entire state???) for 3 days (or 7 ??) max. we don't need the tourist card... so those days don't count against us!

Now Sancho, as I said... the whole thing is either a joke or a nightmare... No firm answers, nothing in print that is clear and complete...

Bajahowodd - 1-4-2011 at 05:58 PM

I agree with DK. Everything published pointed to the idea that the new forms were designed to allow multiple entries that totaled 180 days per year. Logic dictated that they were, in part, cracking down on full time residents that just used the tourist visa. But since there was no announcement as to how one might conveniently trigger a stop to the running time....

Always thought they should have kiosks between the lanes at the border.

Then, there is the question of how reliable and detailed their data base is. Not all that long ago, the agents at SY didn't even have computers. Recently, I;ve actually had my passort swiped there, similar to what is currently being done at airports in Mexico. My most recent entry, no swipe. Who knows??

capitolkat - 1-5-2011 at 09:02 AM

Well I guess nobody knows- we plan to go back to the US in April for a couple of months and then when we come back next time apply for the FM3 after we get back to La Paz. That way we will be within the 6 months of completion of our house and can ship our belongings on the manaje de casa. We'll see if the couple of months out of the country- and we will surrender our FMM in April - as we are flying out will make any difference to the 180 days.. Norm

sancho - 1-5-2011 at 10:16 AM

OK, here's a scenario. a guy gets the prepaid fmm
last May 1, hands it to Mex IMM at San Ysidro, Officer
stamps it. Gringo is on his way, fmm expires in last Nov.
Gringo gets another prepaid fmm, crosses Mex IMM
stamps it. Does anyone here truly believe Mex IMM will
enter the guys passport, and refuse to validate the fmm?
because he has used up his 180 day term?
Thats absurd. Not happening. There would be feedback
by now if that was the case. Printed on the fmm, it states
shall be returned to Mex IMM upon exit from the country
(Mex), who can read that and come away with the impression
it is designed for multiple entries .Sure you can use it over
and back as long as it is valid. The form has the words
forma multiple in it, that does not refer to multiple entries,
it refers to the fmm form combining business, tourist, classifications etc., into one form. You can get so called back to back fmm's.
In the future as has been mentioned, they may want illegal
Gringo residents of Mex to get fm3's, instead of fmm's,
who knows, but it remains they are not restricting Tourists
to one fmm per yr., 12 mo calender or other

David K - 1-5-2011 at 10:39 AM

So, you think it is okay to charge every man, woman, child tourist that crosses the border $23US each for each trip during the 6 months it should be valid for? This provided they follow the instructions you read, and turn it over or mail it back in at the end of each trip.

Oh, yah... that will make more people want to go to Mexico on vacation!

One charge per 180 days is more than enough... specially since it doesn't even benefit the people of Baja... it hurts them. Before mid-2000 there was NO FEE for a tourist card... They wanted us to come south as much as we could!

sancho - 1-5-2011 at 03:06 PM

DK, In no way am I expressing an OPINION on Mex IMM
policies, just stating a fact that on the fmm form it says,
to repeat myself, 'shall be returned to Mex IMM upon
exit from the Country (Mex)', I'm not suggesting someone
should, I don't. I can't make it any more CLEAR. That is what
is PRINTED on the fmm form.
I use it until it expires, over and back a few times,
then get a new one. By the way, what does it cost
a Mex National to get a temp Visa to visit the US?
I'll go way out in a limb, it is more than $22

Brian L - 1-5-2011 at 03:23 PM

Confusing details below regarding traveling to US. How much does a Border Crossing Card cost?

Citizens of the 36 countries within the Visa Waiver Program [3], as well as Canadians, Mexicans living on the border (holding a Border Crossing Card), and Bermudians (with British Overseas Territories passports) do not require advance visas for entry into the United States. In the case of Canadians and Bermudians, the entry period is normally for a maximum of six months. However, since 2009, travelers entering the U.S. through the Visa Waiver program must now apply for Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA) approval online [4] before their flight, preferably 72 hours before travel. An ESTA approval is valid for two years (or until your passport expires) and costs US$ 14 [5]. Approvals issued before September 8, 2010 (i.e. those which were free at the time) remain valid until their expiry date.

Travel under the Visa Waiver Program is limited to 90 days for tourism or business purposes only; neither employment nor journalism is permitted with a Visa Waiver.

bajalou - 1-5-2011 at 04:28 PM

But what does it cost the Mexican to get the "Border Crossing Card"?

David K - 1-5-2011 at 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho
DK, In no way am I expressing an OPINION on Mex IMM
policies, just stating a fact that on the fmm form it says,
to repeat myself, 'shall be returned to Mex IMM upon
exit from the Country (Mex)', I'm not suggesting someone
should, I don't. I can't make it any more CLEAR. That is what
is PRINTED on the fmm form.
I use it until it expires, over and back a few times,
then get a new one. By the way, what does it cost
a Mex National to get a temp Visa to visit the US?
I'll go way out in a limb, it is more than $22

I know...

Nothing personal, just exchanging info. here.

As for what it costs Mexicans to come north... well, the United States (or just California) doesn't have nearly the per centage of its financial needs satisfied by Mexican tourists on vacation, as Mexico does (or Baja specifically).

This is a Baja travel issue, afterall.

[Edited on 1-6-2011 by David K]

Hook - 1-5-2011 at 07:14 PM

Completely irrelevant to this discussion, Brian L. Suggest you start a separate thread.

From what we have seen and heard directly from INM agents, people are going to be allowed to immediately apply for a 6 month FMM immediately after their first one expires. In other words, there is no limit of 180 days in the country, at least in terms of enforcement, whatever the letter of the law states.

I cant comment on the partial credit for days outside of Mexico. Havent heard a thing about the reality of it.

[Edited on 1-6-2011 by Hook]

Brian L - 1-5-2011 at 10:56 PM

Huh? Relevant? I was merely responding to DK and Sancho's discussion on the difference between costs of US and Mexican tourism entry fees.

what is with your sudden outburst at me? Weird.

Now, back to discussion...

[Edited on 1-6-2011 by Brian L]

Hook - 1-6-2011 at 04:21 AM

I was to-the-point. I'm often like that, if you've read other posts by me. You can define it as rude, if you like.

And, yes, their discussion DID lose some relevancy to the original post, as well. You had company. I apologize for not realizing that.

I still think my suggestion to begin another thread on your point is valid. It is unlikely that someone will address your issue under the title of this thread. This is about FMMs. But stick to this course, if you see fit.

This FMM discussion is VERY important at this time and place. We are within the time period where persons who received the original FMMs after May 1, 2010 have had them expire. It will be interesting to see how INM proceeds on renewal as these persons begin to reapply for a new FMM. This thread is a probable place for persons to share their experiences with this. It would be unfortunate if this discussion got far off its original intent; the application, enforcement and return of the FMM.

Hook - 1-6-2011 at 06:09 PM

It would also be unfortunate if it disappeared from visibility. So..............

BUMP.

sancho - 1-7-2011 at 10:55 AM

Well put, often posters try to out do one another,
I fall into that group on occasion. I'm sure I'm not
the only one, after pressing the post button, doesn't
like his choice of words. The the first fmm's
expired Nov. 1, or so, if issued May 1, the first time
they were issued. So frequent, long term Baja visitors
will be renewing fmm's. I haven't seen any indication
on this or mainland boards that anyone is being denied
another fmm. Whether the full time resident Baja gringos
are violating the letter of the IMM Regs, maybe.
I think we would have read some outraged travellers posts
if they were being denied an fmm. I think this is far more important than
some of the pointless discussions of Tiger Woods or the
biggest burrito. I'm unsure about the $22 being a MAJOR
deterrent for Tourists to baja, I think the US Economy,
Cartel Violence (exaggerated or not), and the misinfo
you need a Passport to return to the US, are more of
a factor. Reports are that fly down resorts in Mex are doing
OK/better, we all know the fmm price is embedded in an
International Flight to Mex, that doesn't seem to be deterring
flyers. I walked down Revolution Blvd a while back,
on a Sat. afternoon, there were 10 Gringo tourists on that 5
blk area. 35% of stores closed, in the past it was hard
to walk down the sidewalk, you don't need an fmm for
Revo Ave or for Tourist Corridor to Ensenada, for a short
stay

[Edited on 1-7-2011 by sancho]

David K - 1-7-2011 at 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho
Well put, often posters try to out do one another,
I fall into that group on occasion. I'm sure I'm not
the only one, after pressing the post button, doesn't
like his choice of words. The the first fmm's
expired Nov. 1, or so, if issued May 1, the first time
they were issued. So frequent, long term Baja visitors
will be renewing fmm's. I haven't seen any indication
on this or mainland boards that anyone is being denied
another fmm. Whether the full time resident Baja gringos
are violating the letter of the IMM Regs, maybe.
I think we would have read some outraged travellers posts
if they were being denied an fmm. I think this is far more important than
some of the pointless discussions, like Tiger Woods
or the Biggest Burrito

It will be interesting to see! :light:

Bajahowodd - 1-7-2011 at 01:36 PM

I have a feeling that full implementation of the intent of the law will happen in the future. Guessing that we'll find out when someone posts on here that they were denied a new FMM.

That said, and apologies to Hook, but since DK sort of raised the issue by complaining that it is self-defeating for Mexico to charge foreigners to enter the country legally, and Brian then responded with a question about the costs in reverse, which I do think is a relevant question, well....

http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1263.html

The Border card costs $140 for the application. If the application is denied, the fee is non-refundable. Since this card has biometric features, it appears that one must apply in person. According to this government website, the applications may be made in Mexico City, Guadalajara, or Merida. Kind of a pain in the tookus for Baja residents.

David K - 1-7-2011 at 07:49 PM

I guess it is more expensive for things to be done in the U.S., than in Mexico? :light:

Does Mexico need a entire government force (like the Border Patrol) to make sure Americans are not sneeking into Mexico or are there illegally, and draining funds intended for Mexican citizens?

Americans go to Mexico to spend money... The illegal northbound crossers come across to get money!

Someday the tables may turn... until then, that is just reality.

bajagrouper - 1-8-2011 at 01:53 PM

First the new FMM is not a multiple entry form, the multiple is for the multiple permits you can get using this form, like tourist card,FM2 & FM3 etc.

second nowhere is it written on any Mexican Gov. website that you can not leave the country for a day or less and return and get another 180 day tourist card or FMM...

Last Nov. I was able to leave Mexico with a auto permit linked to my FMM and re-enter Mexico without problems or questions from imagration...

and David K, the mexican Gov. does not require a person to have a FM3 or FM2 to be property owners.to track home owners...

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I agree with DK. Everything published pointed to the idea that the new forms were designed to allow multiple entries that totaled 180 days per year. Logic dictated that they were, in part, cracking down on full time residents that just used the tourist visa. But since there was no announcement as to how one might conveniently trigger a stop to the running time....

Always thought they should have kiosks between the lanes at the border.

Then, there is the question of how reliable and detailed their data base is. Not all that long ago, the agents at SY didn't even have computers. Recently, I;ve actually had my passort swiped there, similar to what is currently being done at airports in Mexico. My most recent entry, no swipe. Who knows??

David K - 1-8-2011 at 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajagrouper
First the new FMM is not a multiple entry form, the multiple is for the multiple permits you can get using this form, like tourist card,FM2 & FM3 etc.

second nowhere is it written on any Mexican Gov. website that you can not leave the country for a day or less and return and get another 180 day tourist card or FMM...

Last Nov. I was able to leave Mexico with a auto permit linked to my FMM and re-enter Mexico without problems or questions from imagration...

and David K, the mexican Gov. does not require a person to have a FM3 or FM2 to be property owners.to track home owners...

Quote:

Go for it... let us know what happens when someone sets up camp on your front porch and says this is their grandfather's ranch land.

Sure, nobody that sells you a house in Baja needs to see your FM-3... but if you want legal protection, you have no rights to property you claim as yours as long as you are not in possesion of the correct visa for your activity in Mexico.

I am not wanting to argue, I just don't want you to lose your investment by not being legal... I wish you well!

If you have a home on land you lease and you go to it over and over, you are not a 'Tourist', you are a part time resident.

Tourists are people on a vacation and travel in Mexico to one or more places for a limited time, and when their vacation is over, they leave nothing of theirs behind... FMM (formerly FM-T) Tourist Card Holders.

bajagrouper - 1-8-2011 at 05:58 PM

Having an FMM gives you all the rights as someone with an FM3 or FM2 for owning property in Mexico, when buying by first piece of property( with an FMT) in the coastal restricted zone I had to apply with the Dept. of Foreign Affairs for permission and received it...I just bought a 12 acre ranch outside the restricted zone on an FMM and again was granted permission....DavidK, Where in Mexico do you own land and what was your experence?

David K - 1-8-2011 at 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajagrouper
Having an FMM gives you all the rights as someone with an FM3 or FM2 for owning property in Mexico, when buying by first piece of property( with an FMT) in the coastal restricted zone I had to apply with the Dept. of Foreign Affairs for permission and received it...I just bought a 12 acre ranch outside the restricted zone on an FMM and again was granted permission....DavidK, Where in Mexico do you own land and what was your experence?

I don't, as a 'tourist' I wouldn't be legal. Please allow the many Nomads who have gone to the effort to have legal status for their activity answer you.

I don't doubt for a minute you own property in Mexico... I do doubt that you have as much security with keeping it as someone who has obtained an FM-3, 2 or is working towards Mexican citizenship.

Again, I wish no ill towards you... I would be very sad if Migra found you and removed you from your home, and then someone born in Mexico decided they like your home and moved in.

Think about it... research it... If you are correct and the FM-3 is not needed... there are a lot of Nomads who have paid a lot of money and time to obtain them for doing what you are.

bajagrouper - 1-9-2011 at 07:20 AM

David, I know you know quite a bit about Baja, I have only been visiting Baja since 1948...But this is one subject( owning property in Mexico) you know nothing about!!

bajaguy - 1-9-2011 at 07:40 AM

Would be nice to see the "official' version of the regulations, but this is Mexico.

My common sense understanding is that the FMM/FMT is for "tourist/vacation" purposes, the FM2/3 are for more "permanent or semi-permant" residents...........

bajagrouper - 1-9-2011 at 09:41 AM

Besides a passport, and money all you need to buy a house,condo or timeshare in Mexico is to be in the country legally and an FMM serves that purpose...

Quote:

Originally posted by morgaine7
There are official laws and regulations, but they're buried in long documents of Spanish legalese like the Ley General de Población, etc. My understanding:

FMM only: Short-term visits, less than 180 days, for various purposes (business, study, tourism, and more)
FM3: Long-term visits, more than 180 days, for various purposes
FM2: Residence
Inmigrado: Permanent residence

Like Bajagrouper, I bought my property while here on an FMT, which was accepted by the SRE and the notario. The FMT number is even entered in my fideicomiso, I believe to show that I was legally in the country when I signed the contract. Before moving here, I got an FM3 and now have an FM2. I do strongly agree with DK that if you're living here even part time, it's best to have an FM3/FM2. You normally need it to open a bank account, get a driver's license, and do other residence-type transactions. And now that it's a card, it's a very handy wallet-sized photo ID in Spanish that anyone can read.

Kate

PS - The FM2 card says (in Spanish and English) "The owner of this document is a resident in Mexico". As I recall, the FM3 card says "... temporary resident ..." or something to that effect.

[Edited on 1-9-2011 by morgaine7]

David K - 1-9-2011 at 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajagrouper
Besides a passport, and money all you need to buy a house,condo or timeshare in Mexico is to be in the country legally and an FMM serves that purpose...

Quote:

Yes, I agree that you are in the country legally (for up to 180 days out of the year).

I don't think you have a legal case for maintaining personal or real property in Mexico as a tourist, however. I am not an expert in this, you are correct... but I have been reading Baja Nomad for 8 years and Amigos de Baja before that... so I am just sharing what I have read and what my friends in Baja with property also have said.

If an FM-3 or 2 isn't needed... why do so many go through that process???

Geeze Grouper

BajaRob - 1-9-2011 at 11:00 AM

Rincon de Guayabitos is one of my favorite places here but mis-information sucks. We now have Immigrado status and are well aware that FM-2 or FM-3 documents are required to lease/own property here. If you don't get it, don't post it.

longlegsinlapaz - 1-9-2011 at 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

I don't, as a 'tourist' I wouldn't be legal.

Please cite specific Mexican laws/regulations where you obtained this information.

Quote:

Please allow the many Nomads who have gone to the effort to have legal status for their activity answer you.

EXCELLENT ADVICE!!!

Quote:

I don't doubt for a minute you own property in Mexico... I do doubt that you have as much security with keeping it as someone who has obtained an FM-3, 2 or is working towards Mexican citizenship.

Again, I wish no ill towards you... I would be very sad if Migra found you and removed you from your home, and then someone born in Mexico decided they like your home and moved in.

Migra doesn't have to "find" him, he presents himself at their office each & every time he gets an FMM, He also presents himself at the bank every year when he pays his annual fideicomiso fees. Ditto for paying his annual property taxes. If this were illegal as you have clearly stated you believe it to be, don't you think that at least one of the agencies involved in his property ownership would have thrown out a red flag?

I agree with Morgaine7 that if a true legal dispute were to arise, that anyone would be in a more secure legal position with resident status rather than tourist status....but that's governed by different laws than land acquisition laws.

Quote:

Think about it... research it... If you are correct and the FM-3 is not needed... there are a lot of Nomads who have paid a lot of money and time to obtain them for doing what you are.

If you honestly believe that property ownership is the only reason to get an FM3 or FM2, then it's you who needs to do some research rather than pontificating on the legalities of something you have absolutely no personal experience with. Those who have completed the process have already done the research & I'd place my money on personal experience over rumor & unfounded speculation every time!

By the way, for one who appears to want to act responsibly & abide by the laws as a guest in this country, you have done the research about the legalities of things like driving on the beach & taking clams....haven't you? Oh, that's right! You promote highly selective adherence to the laws of this country!

Brian L - 1-9-2011 at 11:04 AM

Whether David is right or wrong, and he admits he isn't sure, his main point is that owning land and possibly not being there legally should be something to worry about. That is his main point. It doesn't sound like he is trying to judge, rather express concern about losing property.

rts551 - 1-9-2011 at 11:13 AM

Thanks longlegs for bringing common sense to this post,

David K - 1-9-2011 at 11:14 AM

Where did I say property ownership was the only reason???

In the name of friendship between Nomads... I wouldn't want someone to lose their property because they didn't obtain the proper visa.

This is a discussion of tourist cards and bajagrouper's telling us one isn't needed to own in Mexico... I agree that one isn't needed to BUY in Mexico... and every Mexican agency you want to hand money to, will take it... It is a matter of keeping the property after you buy it.

Since 'tourists' are people who return home with all of their property at the end of their vacation... I am questioning bajagrouper as to using 'tourist cards' to live part-time in Mexico providing him with any security, should there be legal challanges.

Waiting to also hear why did everyone who has FM-3s who got them ONLY for buying and keeping property feels about their waste of time... (per bajagrouper).

This is earth-shattering stuff when you consider FM-3s are one of the top subjects here.

Again, for maintaing property in Mexico.

[Edited on 1-9-2011 by David K]

bajagrouper - 1-9-2011 at 01:22 PM

DavidK you ask "If an FM-3 or 2 isn't needed... why do so many go through that process???"

There are many reasons folks get FM3s, it may be to:
leave an auto in Mexico
possible tax advantage when selling Real Estate
part of becoming a citizen
or maybe they were told by a Real Estate salesman they need one to increase their profit, remember anyone can sell Real Estate in Mexico...

David K - 1-9-2011 at 01:27 PM

I added clarification above... for holding onto property in Mexico with full protection of the migra law. (period)

David K - 1-9-2011 at 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaRob
Rincon de Guayabitos is one of my favorite places here but mis-information sucks. We now have Immigrado status and are well aware that FM-2 or FM-3 documents are required to lease/own property here. If you don't get it, don't post it.

This is from someone who knows the law. (period)

longlegsinlapaz - 1-9-2011 at 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Where did I say property ownership was the only reason???

IMO, you strongly implied it here....if I mis-read your words, please clarify what you meant to say:

Quote:

Originally posted by David K posted on 1-8-2011 at 07:46 PM
.......Think about it... research it... If you are correct and the FM-3 is not needed... there are a lot of Nomads who have paid a lot of money and time to obtain them for doing what you are.

In the name of friendship between Nomads... I wouldn't want someone to lose their property because they didn't obtain the proper visa.

This is a discussion of tourist cards and bajagrouper's telling us one isn't needed to own in Mexico... I agree that one isn't needed to BUY in Mexico... and every Mexican agency you want to hand money to, will take it... It is a matter of keeping the property after you buy it.

How do you BUY property without OWNing it....or OWN property without BUYing it?? As a long time permanent resident, I find your statement "and every Mexican agency you want to hand money to, will take it" to be extremely offensive, possibly slanderous & unequivocally untruthful. It's irresponsible statements like yours that cause Norte Americanos to be viewed negatively.

Please post bajagrouper's actual words using the quote box function showing where he said this because nowhere in this thread can I find where bajagrouper said "tourist cards"...."isn't needed to own in Mexico". I believe he's said the exact opposite of what you are crediting him with saying....that he has bought property with a tourist card (FMM, formerly FMT).

Quote:

Since 'tourists' are people who return home with all of their property at the end of their vacation... I am questioning bajagrouper as to using 'tourist cards' to live part-time in Mexico providing him with any security, should there be legal challanges.

Waiting to also hear why did everyone who has FM-3s who got them ONLY for buying and keeping property feels about their waste of time... (per bajagrouper).

Again, please post bajagrouper's actual words using the quote box function showing where he said "everyone who has FM-3s who got them ONLY for buying and keeping property feels about their waste of time..." because this is yet another quote you credit to Bajagrouper that I can't find in his posts.

Quote:

Originally posted by David KThis is earth-shattering stuff when you consider FM-3s are one of the top subjects here.

Again, for maintaing property in Mexico.

[Edited on 1-9-2011 by David K]

On edit: I'm not sure what happened to a portion of my original post....I must have gotten overzealous in my cleaning up of my post prior to hitting the post button & accidentally deleted a large portion of my own response.

For that I apologize. What I'd written previously that evidently fell on the cutting room floor....

Like Morgaine7, I bought my first property in La Paz in 1998 while here on vacation on an FMT & prior to the time I made my permanent move here in 1999, I’d obtained my FM3. Many of my acquaintances here also bought initially while in the country on an FMT. I can’t quote laws/statutes....I’m speaking from my own personal experience & that of many, many friends, neighbors & acquaintances in the La Paz & other parts of BCS who did indeed buy property (both improved & unimproved) while holding an FMT/FMM. All those purchases were considered legal transactions which withstood scrutiny of the multitude of federal & local agencies involved, as well as the fideicomiso acquisition, Notario & bank processes. If there was anything illegal about buying with an FMT, all of these deals would never have closed. They wouldn’t have all passed the scrutiny of that many different governmental agencies & companies involved in the process.

In over 11 years here, I have never heard of a purchase not closing because the buyer was in the country on an FMT/FMM visa.

In my case, I sold that first property after 5 years & my subsequent sales transaction closed 6.5 years ago with nary a glitch or a raised eyebrow....to a person who was here on an FMT.

I’m one of the straightest, by-the-book people I know, & I'd never knowingly violate the laws of my adopted country....I consider myself a guest here, even after the length of time I've been here....I have way too much to lose. Everything I own, my entire net worth is here. I’d never knowing do anything to possibly jeopardize either my assets or my legal status to remain here for the rest of my days.

[Edited on 1-10-2011 by longlegsinlapaz]

Bajahowodd - 1-9-2011 at 04:38 PM

I know this may seem like a narrow issue, but as I wandered through the posts here, a question arose in my mind. A bank will grant and issue a fideicomiso on a tourist visa, but won't let you open an account???

longlegsinlapaz - 1-9-2011 at 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

This is from someone who knows the law. (period)

Please note, that this discussion has involved property purchases both in mainland Mexico & Baja. I have no personal experience or knowledge of how things happen in mainland Mexico, but would assume that because Federal agencies & laws are involved that the same legalities would be governing transactions in both areas....but that's just an assumption on my part.

No disrespect whatsoever to Bajarob....I don't know him, have no idea what personal experiences or laws he's basing his statement on....but my personal experience & the personal experiences of many, many acquaintances in this area is that we did indeed buy property (both improved & unimproved) holding an FMT/FMM & those were legal transactions which withstood scrutiny of all federal & local agencies involved, as well as Notario & bank. In my case, I sold that first property after 5 years & that transaction closed 6.5 years ago with nary a raised eyebrow.

If someone can actually find & post the federal laws or statutes which say that land purchase by non-Mexican require an FM3 or FM2, then I'll do my best to figure out the proper authorities to turn myself into....but I can tell you right off, it wouldn't be migra/INM, since their only concern is that I'm in the country legally.

David K - 1-9-2011 at 04:55 PM

Wow, it is more important to try and discredit the way I am asking about this then to provide the correct answer on what type of visa is required to have legal ability to own property in Mexico that you live in.

Long Legs, so you also have property and live in La Paz and only have a tourist card... and that is fine to the best of your knowledge?

I refer to Nomads in Mexico, who believes in abiding by migra law and values his property enough to follow the law... I personally know some who have posted about it here... and maybe more, who I haven't talked to about it or recall a post from.

I pursue this because unlike many, I actually think Nomad is a place to get information and not just for laughs or power tripping. The information should be truthful and the most accurate possible... otherwise it is either useless or harmful.

I choose to help Nomads (and lurkers) and not to harm them.

David K - 1-9-2011 at 04:58 PM

Again... I never said anyone couldn't buy land without an FM-3. That is just silly... anyone in Mexico will take a gringo's money.. gladly! Here, too!

David K - 1-9-2011 at 08:38 PM

Thank you Kate!

longlegsinlapaz - 1-9-2011 at 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Wow, it is more important to try and discredit the way I am asking about this then to provide the correct answer on what type of visa is required to have legal ability to own property in Mexico that you live in.

Long Legs, so you also have property and live in La Paz and only have a tourist card... and that is fine to the best of your knowledge?

I refer to Nomads in Mexico, who believes in abiding by migra law and values his property enough to follow the law... I personally know some who have posted about it here... and maybe more, who I haven't talked to about it or recall a post from.

I pursue this because unlike many, I actually think Nomad is a place to get information and not just for laughs or power tripping. The information should be truthful and the most accurate possible... otherwise it is either useless or harmful.

I choose to help Nomads (and lurkers) and not to harm them.

Your question in this post caused me to go back & check the post I knew (thought, as it turned out) I'd provided my personal experience in....only to discover that I must have gotten overzealous in my cleaning up of my post prior to hitting the post button & accidentally deleted a large portion of my own response.

In an effort to maintain flow, I edited my original post to reflect the missing portion.

That said, please address the questions & issues specifically mentioned rather than attempting turn the tables & make me a "bad guy"! Please stop playing the "Oh pity me, I'm getting picked on again!" card.

You see DK, I also feel strongly that Baja Nomad is a valuable tool "to get information and not just for laughs or power tripping." I sincerely believe that what you perceive as "power tripping" is in all honesty my attempt at keeping "The information should be truthful and the most accurate possible... otherwise it is either useless or harmful." Why should you be held to any different standards than anyone else on this board? When you make statements which you attribute to another member, you ought to be held accountable for quoting their actual words, rather than paraphrasing what you thing they might have meant. I asked you to please show where bajagrouper posted the words you attributed to him. You chose to ignore my requests. If you pass on rumors & unfounded speculation & assumptions, then you ought to be held accountable for what you post. You chose to ignore all the questions I asked you. You ignored or challenged others posters who gave information on their firsthand personal experiences & knowledge.

My bottom line is that....IMO....when you post erroneous information, you are doing exactly what you say you're trying to prevent...."otherwise it is either useless or harmful....." Please read the words I actually use, not what you assume I meant to say. In case you haven't noticed, I'm a straight-forward call a spade-a-spade kinda person. You may not like my straight-forward style, but I'm rarely told that my choice of words was unclear.

Because of your experiences, you address everything Baja from a tourist vantage point. Please accept that there is a huge difference in how the many full-time Baja residents view things based on their firsthand knowledge & actual experiences. Laws, statutes & actual firsthand experience from people I trust & respect carry much more weight with me personally, than speculation or someones ex-wife's second-cousin, twice removed thinks maybe....just as I suspect it does with you. <<< That's an honest factual observation, in no way meant to be taken as "power tripping"!

longlegsinlapaz - 1-9-2011 at 09:26 PM

~~Mor~~Kate, thank you for taking the time to track down the actual legalese & more so for taking the time to translate it!!! I had faith that somebody would eventually find the wherewithal to dig it up!

David K - 1-9-2011 at 09:35 PM

Sure... I know... you are here to make sure I am not posting junk... go ahead, but at least check those others that you don't have any beef with. Honestly, I don't know where our pathes crossed up, but we never met, yet have some of the same friends in Baja... so can't we just try and understand tyhat we both want the same thing?

I am still pretty sure an FMM holder doesn't have as much protection over property he buys and lives on as an FM-3 holder... Because if you buy a place in Mexico, you are not a tourist on vacation anymore. You are a home owner and a part (or full) time resident in Mexico... leaving property behind if and when you go north for part of the year.

Can you hand money over to someone and buy what they sell? YES

Can you do business in Mexico because a Tourist Card makes you legal in Mexico? YES

Does buying a home and living there change your status from TOURIST (FMM) to RESIDENT (FM-3 or 2)? ... YES!

bajagrouper - 1-10-2011 at 02:56 PM

DK, It appears you still do not understand, I will no longer try to convince you that as long as one is leagle( FMM,FM3 or FM2) in the country they can buy and hold property, as long as the Dept. of Foreign Affairs give you the ok you have all the rights as a Mexican...
David you will always enter Mexico with an FMM, I wonder if you will surrender it each time you return to the USA like it instructs you to do?

FMM or FM-3

bajaguy - 1-10-2011 at 03:02 PM

We obtained our FM-3's beacuse after we purchased our house we became part-time residents, not tourists.

Riom - 1-10-2011 at 05:11 PM

It appears the FMM gives more rights than the FM-T used to. Look at the tiny print at the end of the bottom left of the FMM form.

It says "The holder of this document enjoys, without any discrimination whatsoever, the guarantees granted by the political constitution of the United Mexican States, likewise, with the exception of the Transmigrant, he has the right to aquire fixed or variable income securities and make bank deposits, as well as aquire urban real estate and real rights on same, with the restrictions set forth in Article 27 of the Constitution."

A Transmigrant is somebody from for example Nicaragua who has a transit visa, not a Tourist. The rights above on the FMM do apply to mere tourists (as well as various other categories the FMM can be issued for).

In the real world, banks and possibly notaries are going to be asking for FM-3's for a while yet, as that's what they've been used to, but it's quite clear an FMM is (now) all that is needed.

[Edited on 2011-1-11 by Riom]

David K - 1-11-2011 at 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Riom
It appears the FMM gives more rights than the FM-T used to. Look at the tiny print at the end of the bottom left of the FMM form.

It says "The holder of this document enjoys, without any discrimination whatsoever, the guarantees granted by the political constitution of the United Mexican States, likewise, with the exception of the Transmigrant, he has the right to aquire fixed or variable income securities and make bank deposits, as well as aquire urban real estate and real rights on same, with the restrictions set forth in Article 27 of the Constitution."

A Transmigrant is somebody from for example Nicaragua who has a transit visa, not a Tourist. The rights above on the FMM do apply to mere tourists (as well as various other categories the FMM can be issued for).

In the real world, banks and possibly notaries are going to be asking for FM-3's for a while yet, as that's what they've been used to, but it's quite clear an FMM is (now) all that is needed.

[Edited on 2011-1-11 by Riom]

Big thanks Riom for taking the time to post this!!!

Great news... and thank you BajaGrouper for insisting we can act like residents in Mexico on a tourist card... I think I see your point and feel so lucky to not need to go through all the crap and bureaucracy all the other poor Nomads did to honor the law of Mexico (as it existed before the FMM).

I still don't get how you did it legally before the FMM?

Now, can I also work in Mexico on the FMM? :?:

[Edited on 1-11-2011 by David K]

David K - 1-11-2011 at 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy
We obtained our FM-3's beacuse after we purchased our house we became part-time residents, not tourists.

Gee willykers bajaguy... didn't you understand bajagrouper here...? You are sounding like me, before bajagrouper took the time to show me the way! :smug:

Tourists are now the same as part time residents!! :light:

David K - 1-11-2011 at 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajagrouper
DK, It appears you still do not understand, I will no longer try to convince you that as long as one is leagle( FMM,FM3 or FM2) in the country they can buy and hold property, as long as the Dept. of Foreign Affairs give you the ok you have all the rights as a Mexican...
David you will always enter Mexico with an FMM, I wonder if you will surrender it each time you return to the USA like it instructs you to do?

If I surrender it, then what would happen to my newly aquired property in Mexico...? I feel better holding on to my legal document for the entire 180 days... I mean what if I cross at Tecate or any place there isn't an open bank when I go back to my Baja home?

(do I hear an admission that one would need an FM-3 to maintain property rights, yet?)

bajagrouper - 1-11-2011 at 10:17 AM

Da vid, you write:
"If I surrender it, then what would happen to my newly aquired property in Mexico...?"

You probably can't afford it....

maspacifico - 1-11-2011 at 10:22 AM

David....Property is held in your name by the fideocomiso.....that legal entity stays in Mexico no matter where you are or what kind of (legal) immigration status you have. The new FMM seems to clarify that. If I didn't live here I wouldn't dream of going through the everchanging FM3/2 mess. Thanks for the irrigation advice by the way!

David K - 1-11-2011 at 11:09 AM

maspacifico, No problema amigo...

bajagrouper, yes you are correct... I am only trying to get at the facts here... and I use examples to either clairify or bring out more.

I am amazed at the FM-3/2 holders that just sitting back and excepting your statements that to own a home and live in it in Mexico can all now be legally done on a tourist card. If you do a Nomad search, you will see miles and miles of posts on getting the FM-3 (and not for employment purposes).

shari - 1-11-2011 at 12:18 PM

You can open a bank account at Bancomer with just a FMM and purchase land. Perhaps the difference is if you live here or just visit your place like a tourist from time to time which LOTS of people do.

sancho - 1-11-2011 at 12:51 PM

Bank account available with just an fmm. I did
not know that. Come to think of it, back in
the day, I seem to remember Gringos getting
those high rate timed deposits in Mex Banks,
when the inflation was high

DavidE - 1-11-2011 at 02:31 PM

Sorry folks but I spent an entire morning with Lic. Ismael Gutierrez INM about this issue. He first telephoned Morelia to the Delagado Federal INM and then they telephoned INM in Mexico City. What I was told came from the horse's - mouth and was recited chapter and verse.

There is POSITIVELY NO 180-day time "limit" on the FMM. The reason that the FMM was introduced is to eliminate four other FM forms that were used for diplomats, education, FMN (work 30-day permiso) and transmigrotoria purposes. The same form is now used for everything.

The issue of "checking out" seems to be a little unclear which means different migra offices may interpet what the "correct way" is supposed to mean. Technically the FMM is supposed to be multiple entry.

I would retain the FMM and car permit (if in possesion of) and then let the Aduaneros deal with things when you return and check you out at customs.

As the immigration officers were explaining things to me I was reading the law regarding the FMM right out of the handbook. There is absolutely no time limit and Mexico City said there was no discussion going on to implement such a provision.

Thank You

bajalou - 1-11-2011 at 02:50 PM

That's very interesting DavidE.

The application mentions a 180 day time limit several times for many classes of visitors.

msteve1014 - 1-11-2011 at 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

I am still pretty sure an FMM holder doesn't have as much protection over property he buys and lives on as an FM-3 holder... Because if you buy a place in Mexico, you are not a tourist on vacation anymore. You are a home owner and a part (or full) time resident in Mexico... leaving property behind if and when you go north for part of the year.

Does buying a home and living there change your status from TOURIST (FMM) to RESIDENT (FM-3 or 2)? ... YES!

Does buying a home and vacationing there for 2 or 3 weeks a year make you a tourist? YES.
And you are "pretty sure" about the the differance between the FMM and FM-3 ?
Can I take that to the bank?

sancho - 1-11-2011 at 06:28 PM

David E, Hope this puts an end to the myth that a person is
only allowed 1 fmm per yr., but I doubt it.
However we all know how inconsistent the different
Mex Immigration offices can apply the regs.
One item printed on the fmm form that is confusing
to me, is the statement
'shall be handed in upon departure from the Country'
(Mex), that to me means one entry

longlegsinlapaz - 1-11-2011 at 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
That's very interesting DavidE.

The application mentions a 180 day time limit several times for many classes of visitors.

Because of the difference in phrasing structure between English & Espanol, I'd bet the 180-day limit is in reference to the life span of an individual FMM document rather than an individuals time allowed in the country on an FMM. In other words, 180 days per FMM.

David K - 1-14-2011 at 06:40 PM

See reply from toneart is San Felipe newsletter thread...

bajagrouper - 1-15-2011 at 09:11 PM

Nice gram ma Da vid...