BajaNomad - looking for some brave 4x4 souls

looking for some brave 4x4 souls

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4x4abc - 1-18-2011 at 09:02 PM

Over the last 25 years I have been exploring almost every corner of Baja California with 4WD. Heard about "forgotten" roads like the Pole Line Road just south of the border. Found them. Drove them. Found a bunch more. There isn't much I haven't done between the border and Cabo San Lucas.

But I also ran into dead ends - roads that seemed to abruptly stop and roads that had been washed away by hurricanes. Could I get through anyway? Those roads have intrigued me more than the ones you can simply drive from A to B.

Even more exciting are some areas in Baja where the maps don't offer any roads at all. Always wondered, what's out there? Are there any tracks created by ranchers or fishermen that never made it onto a map and could be used to explore Baja more deeply?

Well, I have located several forgotten roads as well as "roadless" areas that beg to be visited. Now with the presence of Google Earth, planning has become much easier. But substantial scouting and hard labor is still necessary to make it a successful drive. None of these adventures can be pulled off alone. A team of fearless adventurers is needed.

Fortunately Mexico has (until now) less restrictions than the US - no spotted owl will keep you from visiting a virgin beach. However, many of the adventures I have in mind will become impossible in a few years. Fences and locked gates are springing up everywhere - especially if there is a white beach close by. So, this might be the first as well as the last chance for many of us to drive areas that haven't been driven before.

These are not guided tours and no fees are involved - just a bunch of likeminded off-road nuts getting together to drink and drive. Scratch that - drive all day and then drink.

http://www.baja101.com/first-adventure/1-uno.html

let me know what you think

Thank you 4x4abc!

David K - 1-18-2011 at 11:38 PM

Wonderful... the land is there to be enjoyed... a gift from above. The wilderness of Baja is a deeply special treasure that if unknown or closed off, looses the splendor of discovery by each who has the adventure spirit in them... and a good 4WD machine!

Hwy. 1 and graded roads is enough excitement for some... Not for all!

You might enjoy a look at what a few of us Nomads did last May... Mision Santa Maria: http://community-2.webtv.net/vivabaja/msm2010/

sanquintinsince73 - 1-19-2011 at 12:59 AM

Nice pics abc, thanks for sharing.

4x4abc - 1-19-2011 at 06:28 AM

yeah, I have been driving to Santa Maria since 1987

early 90's filmed some scenes for a Baja documentary there (Spanish soldiers and padres with costumes from Hollywood) I had hired extras and horses at the St. Ines rancho

found the lower canyon (with Camino Real and indian trail) much more intriguing than the mission itself

I usually drive to a base camp about 2.5 miles from the Las Palmitas turn off - that makes the hike to the pools a little easier (still a 6 hour roundtrip on foot)
the best pool is right below the saddle where you find the petroglyphs

http://www.baja101.com/GoogleEarth/St%20Maria%20pool.kmz

David K - 1-19-2011 at 11:21 AM

The Las Palmitas oasis, on the Gonzaga side of the canyon?

Last time I was down there (2003), I could only drive a mile from the turnoff, towards the canyon mouth... just beyond the big boulder (parking spot) the road entered the white sand arroyo of Sta. Maria and it wasn't more than a 1000 feet when boulders and brush prevented a vehicle from going any more. Things change in arroyos!

In 1999, with Baja Mur... we went looking for the Camino Real and ended up hiking up the canyon for a couple miles and enjoyed a swim in one of the pools... photos of that trip (it was a couple days after we rode to the mission from Santa Ynez) at http://vivabaja.com/missionsm

I couldn't get your kmz file to open, it just went to mine... I will check and see if it left a marker on mine.

The Camino Real is one of my favorite subjects... My son and I hiked it 2/3 of the way to Santa Maria from the Gonzaga side... we lost it and were running out of daylight. Don Jorge followed us a week or so later and found the rest of it getting all the way to the mission then returning via the canyon.

See http://vivabaja.com/1103 and the hike begins on the second page.

GPS from Gonzaga to the mission:

GPS Directions (map datum NAD27 Mexico)

Take Hwy. 5 south 7.4 miles from Rancho Grande, turn west: 29°41.094'/ 114°24.566'

3.2 miles west of Hwy. 5, go straight where most traffic curves left for Las Palmitas: 29°41.278'/ 114°27.639'

0.8 miles from above, park at huge boulder: 29°41.68'/ 114°28.20'

Hike to north bank of Arroyo Santa Maria to: 29°41.733'/ 114°28.175' elev. 609' (ECR-1)

Go northwest and climb out of valley, note ocotillos.

Along left side of side valley: 29°42.374'/ 114°28.566' elev. 741' (ECR-2)

On first padre built switchback up: 29°42.669'/ 114°28.937' elev. 906' (ECR-3)

On a ridge, trail continues northwest: 29°42.671'/ 114°29.425' elev. 1308' (ECR-4)

On the Camino Real: 29°42.748'/ 114°29.482' elev. 1391' (ECR-5)

Crossing ridges and little mesas: 29°43.008'/ 114°29.967' elev. 1477' (ECR-6)

Drop along side of ridge, trail narrow: 29°43.074'/ 114°30.128' elev.1610' (ECR-7)

End of today's hike just beyond this last clear sign of the old trail: 29°43.141'/ 114°30.189' elev. 1702' (ECR-8)

Junction of ECR & bulldozed road: 29°43.126'/ 114°31.753' elev.1413'

(End of bulldozed road, on canyon ridge: 29°43.033'/ 114°31.556' elev. 1,615' )

Mision Santa Maria: 29°43.891'/ 114°32.794' elev.1628'

[Edited on 1-19-2011 by David K]

4x4abc - 1-19-2011 at 11:56 AM

Yes, Las Palmitas oasis, on the Gonzaga side of the canyon.

I have been driving in there continuously the last 20 years. Things change and some boulders get exposed (and sometimes covered with sand), but it was always drivable - if you know how to use a 4x4 to your advantage without sacrificing it or leaving scars in the ground behind.

The pools deep in the canyon are stunning, very deep witha waterfall constantly adding more water

found some old images (sorry for the bad quality)

[Edited on 1-19-2011 by 4x4abc]

[Edited on 1-19-2011 by 4x4abc]

[Edited on 1-19-2011 by 4x4abc]

[Edited on 1-19-2011 by 4x4abc]

[Edited on 1-19-2011 by 4x4abc]

David K - 1-19-2011 at 12:00 PM

Cool... yes driving to Las Palmitas was easy... but going into the canyon wasn't passable then... a mile west of the Palmitas left turn.

Here is a photo of one of the petro rocks at the top of the bulldozed road just up from the one in your photo, along the Indian trail:

4x4abc - 1-19-2011 at 12:08 PM

is there a maximum of 4 images? can't get the 5th in

mtgoat666 - 1-19-2011 at 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 4x4abc
Even more exciting are some areas in Baja where the maps don't offer any roads at all. Always wondered, what's out there? Are there any tracks created by ranchers or fishermen that never made it onto a map and could be used to explore Baja more deeply?

Well, I have located several forgotten roads as well as "roadless" areas that beg to be visited. Now with the presence of Google Earth, planning has become much easier. But substantial scouting and hard labor is still necessary to make it a successful drive. None of these adventures can be pulled off alone. A team of fearless adventurers is needed.

...drive all day and then drink

let me know what you think

you asked for thoughts...
why go to all that work to drive somewhere? a whole lot easier to hike or bicycle. why do you need to stay in your air conditioned car? can't you enjoy the outdoors without a car?
the beauty of roadless areas is that they are roadless - and you can find peace, quiet and solitude.
creating road access destroys the wild state.

Mexitron - 1-19-2011 at 12:20 PM

Have fun, looks like a blast---I've still got a bunch of roads I haven't finished exploring yet myself.

4x4abc - 1-19-2011 at 12:34 PM

mtgoat666,

why go to all that work to drive somewhere?

good question!

we have already hiked it a couple of times and since it is a road we wanted to make it drivable again
since its not on the map there is no danger that tourists will flood the area - in fact most people don't even leave pavent. Good so. I enjoy nothing more than the empty quiet desert. Empty except me in it.

Quote:

creating road access destroys the wild state.

You are absolutely right! Unfortunately it is a process that none of us will stop. Like nobody will stop the destruction of thousands of acres of desert for Gringo homes. Or new airports. Or new shopping centers.

When I lived in Los Angeles the definition for an environmentalist was: "Someone who built last year."

If we were all dead serious about saving Baja - would all go back home.

[Edited on 1-19-2011 by 4x4abc]

sanquintinsince73 - 1-19-2011 at 12:47 PM

Nice pics again, 4x4abc. That's what this forums all about.

4x4abc - 1-19-2011 at 01:07 PM

knock yourself out on Baja pics
check the links on the left of the following page:

http://www.baja101.com/Baja-California-Nature-Trips/happy-cl...

BajaGringo - 1-19-2011 at 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 4x4abc
knock yourself out on Baja pics
check the links on the left of the following page:

http://www.baja101.com/Baja-California-Nature-Trips/happy-cl...

Wow - Great website, story and photos! You got me wishing I could make this trip. Maybe next time but will look forward to your trip report...

4x4abc - 1-19-2011 at 01:32 PM

naa, those trips are not for you - all grumpy Germans. They even b-tch at the sunset (sunrise, whatever). It takes me weeks to recover. But they have lots of money - Americans don't.

Check out the casual, no fee trips:
http://www.baja101.com/first-adventure/2-dos.html

[Edited on 1-20-2011 by 4x4abc]

Ken Cooke - 1-25-2011 at 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 4x4abcBut they have lots of money - Americans don't.

I agree with this statement. I am currently paying down some bills, but I must spend at minimum 1 week in Baja (in the dirt, or sand). In April, I have a small trip planned called Baja Grande. It is usually a lot of fun!

Rainstorm in JesusMaria

Roni crawling on the Mission Impossible

Jesus Maria - "The Taco Lady" Taco restaurant

Check out the Baja Grande Facebook Page

[Edited on 1-26-2011 by Ken Cooke]

Ken Cooke - 1-25-2011 at 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Ken, edit you photo captions a bit...

I have "Dirt On The Brain" syndrome. :tumble:

David K - 1-25-2011 at 06:58 PM

Good Job! Wish I could go!!! Love to four wheel DRIVE!!

ddawson - 2-4-2011 at 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 4x4abc

Awesome FJ40. Those are great pics, thanks.

4x4abc - 2-4-2011 at 10:36 PM

its my oldest 4x4 - a 1965 - and its my favorite, use it as my beach toy now:

defrag4 - 2-5-2011 at 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 4x4abc
its my oldest 4x4 - a 1965 - and its my favorite, use it as my beach toy now:

nice FJ, spent 2 months in the jungles of CostaRica driving one, sparked my love for 4x4 and especially Toyotas.

I am planning a trip down to Baja in the next week or 2 and would love to hit some of these trails with you. Hi-lift, straps, and a shovel and we should be pretty capable.

4x4abc - 2-5-2011 at 04:01 AM

just PM me

David K - 2-5-2011 at 09:29 AM

Someone on TacomaWorld.com forums posted from your web site on 4WD use... small world!

I am so happy with my Tacoma that I am on #3 now... can't ever vision having any other brand than Toyota after they have proven to me to be the most reliable best built Baja rig... and the A-TRAC blows the mind because it turns the truck into a tractor!

TheBajaKid - 2-11-2011 at 03:59 PM

I wish i could make it sounds like my kinda thing. I Have a 1980 Toyota rock crawler locked with dule cases on 35s that would love to make a new road.
Toyota = Built for Baja

[Edited on 2-11-2011 by TheBajaKid]

David K - 2-11-2011 at 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheBajaKid
I wish i could make it sounds like my kinda thing. I Have a 1980 Toyota rock crawler locked with dule cases on 35s that would love to make a new road.
Toyota = Built for Baja

[Edited on 2-11-2011 by TheBajaKid]

AMEN brother!

wessongroup - 2-11-2011 at 08:19 PM

Some nice looking set up's again.. thanks for sharing.. really looks fun..

Ken Cooke - 2-11-2011 at 08:22 PM

I'd like to go, but I only get limited amounts of time off from work. 2003 1/2 Tomb Raider-edition Rubicon - 33" Interco TrXus MTs, 4" Pro-Comp lift, Rubicon package (4:1 Transfer Case, dual lockers, etc.) Built 4 Baja Grande!

wessongroup - 2-11-2011 at 08:43 PM

Nice shot of your ride Ken... all that work is paying off... It's all good..

Ken Cooke - 2-11-2011 at 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
Nice shot of your ride Ken... all that work is paying off... It's all good..

The Jeep when through a few changes...

Before...

After...a few new modifications (as seen on Quadratech.com)

4x4abc - 2-11-2011 at 11:04 PM

well guys, we just finished our historic Baja coast to coast traverse.
It was an epic adventure - definitely not for everyone. About 60 miles in 4 days. The extremely rough center section took 3 days for 5 miles to complete.

[Edited on 2-12-2011 by 4x4abc]

[Edited on 2-12-2011 by 4x4abc]

[Edited on 2-12-2011 by 4x4abc]

[Edited on 2-12-2011 by 4x4abc]

4x4abc - 2-11-2011 at 11:23 PM

mas

[Edited on 2-12-2011 by 4x4abc]

mtgoat666 - 2-12-2011 at 12:01 AM

really is stupid to create new tracks where there are none or the old tracks have healed over.
people that drive off established trails make all off roaders appear bad.
what an assinine sequence of pictures.

Ken Cooke - 2-12-2011 at 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
really is stupid to create new tracks where there are none or the old tracks have healed over.
people that drive off established trails make all off roaders appear bad.
what an assinine sequence of pictures.

My opinion is that this shows responsible trail-building by some expedition-minded Baja travelers. Their rigs are in good shape showing that they know what they are doing as well.

4x4abc - 2-12-2011 at 08:19 AM

Quote:

you should level your house - and let the spot heal over
where will you be living?
plan on using any roads in the future?

racheldarlin - 2-12-2011 at 08:33 AM

There is a big difference between maintaining an existing trail and building a new one. If your route requires a chain saw and earth moving equipment pick a different route or get a vehicle that can handle whats there. You would never get away with this crap in the states.

Earth moving equipment?

Ken Cooke - 2-12-2011 at 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by racheldarlin
There is a big difference between maintaining an existing trail and building a new one. If your route requires a chain saw and earth moving equipment pick a different route or get a vehicle that can handle whats there. You would never get away with this crap in the states.

I bet these guys wished they had actual earth-moving equipment! haha :lol:

David K - 2-12-2011 at 08:56 AM

Thank you Harald... How about a map or describe where your road is so more of us 4 wheelers can enjoy it?

As for the 'Greenies' here on Nomad... I wonder where you guys were when the government bulldozed down a 200 meter+ wide swath through the Baja desert to build Mexico Highway 1? That was some massive destruction for hundreds of miles of land, plants and animals just to scrape up an elevated roadbed... Or, is anything government does is okay, but private citizens who hand build a path by moving rocks somehow 'evil'??? :rolleyes:

Ken Cooke - 2-12-2011 at 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David KOr, is anything government does is okay, but private citizens who hand build a path by moving rocks somehow 'evil'??? :rolleyes:

David, this is what I call GREEN MOVEMENT! :lol:

racheldarlin - 2-12-2011 at 09:31 AM

I did not refer to anyone as "evil."

Ken
Don't give these guys any ideas or their next point vehicle will be made by Caterpiller.

DK
Hwy 1 was not built just for the hell of it i.e. as an adventure and just because I object to the pointless alteration of nature in the name of sport doesn't make me a "greenie." I, too, drive the ole '98 TJ in the back country but the fun for me is getting around, over, or under obstacles - not moving them out of my way.

TMW - 2-12-2011 at 10:55 AM

The rains and hurricanes often destroy roads and trails that block the locals. Case in point is the Comondu road between La Purisima and San Javier. Because of the damage the section from Comondu to San Javier is closed to all but MC traffic and maybe a few really BA 4x4s for the most part. The question is should it be repaired for use or should it go back to nature? Who is to say that some locals may use the road that 4x4 just opened instead of going around on a longer path. I remember when the north road from the San Borja mission was torn up and blocked by heavy rains, should that have been left alone? People could still get in from Rosarito.

Ken Cooke - 2-12-2011 at 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
The rains and hurricanes often destroy roads and trails that block the locals. Case in point is the Comondu road between La Purisima and San Javier. Because of the damage the section from Comondu to San Javier is closed to all but MC traffic and maybe a few really BA 4x4s for the most part. The question is should it be repaired for use or should it go back to nature? Who is to say that some locals may use the road that 4x4 just opened instead of going around on a longer path. I remember when the north road from the San Borja mission was torn up and blocked by heavy rains, should that have been left alone? People could still get in from Rosarito.

I would love to check this region out when its' possible, but any progress made by our knobby mud cleats could possibly be lost by monsoon-like rains, but the challenge is what I'm often there for.

I remember driving the Pole Line Road to "Suzuki Falls", our group had to construct a "rock bridge" in order to get a full-size Chevy 1500 pickup back and forth. It was crazy fun, but the 35"-size tires were too much for the Chevy's IFS Steering system, but it was a blast.

mtgoat666 - 2-12-2011 at 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote:

you should level your house - and let the spot heal over
where will you be living?
plan on using any roads in the future?

typical response of the type of *sshole that gives offroading a bad name.
i am green, but only against irresponsible offroaders like you that aren't happy until you have scarred virgin ground. responsible offroaders get my respect - you get less than zero.

Ken Cooke - 2-12-2011 at 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

i am green, but only against irresponsible offroaders like you that aren't happy until you have scarred virgin ground. responsible offroaders get my respect - you get less than zero.

This route has obviously been in previous existance. Do you see the track to the left that had not been washed out? My vote is to keep it open to mechanized travel.

David K - 2-12-2011 at 05:08 PM

Goat: It is obvious to us humans that this was a washed-out road that they are repairing... Could make access to a hospital faster fro some rancher, saving his life.

They should get an award for doing the public works business!

TMW - 2-12-2011 at 07:08 PM

I guess Roy, Richard, Bill and I are in deep dodo for getting the squarcircles SUV thru the la Turquesa mine road. We had to move a few boulders around. I bet they are probably washed back in the way by now.

David K - 2-12-2011 at 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
I guess Roy, Richard, Bill and I are in deep dodo for getting the squarcircles SUV thru the la Turquesa mine road. We had to move a few boulders around. I bet they are probably washed back in the way by now.

Hey, I went by Roy's place a few days ago and visited for a while... He is fine and showed me his big street bike... His Land Rover (Winston) now has a Vision X LED light bar across the roof and Roy says it lights up the desert in front of him like a baseball field night game. He got his computer working and he reads Nomad... Hi Roy (The Squarecircle)! :light:

Thats why its called offroading!

TheBajaKid - 2-13-2011 at 10:49 AM

I Bet if they paved the road instead of just moving rocks and brush mt goats dumbass would be driving up and down it. Just like all the other roads he drives on.

[Edited on 2-13-2011 by TheBajaKid]

TMW - 2-13-2011 at 12:51 PM

Well Mr Squarecircle when are we going to Baja for another adventure?????
I've got a 2004 Toyota Tacoma 4x4 and it should be ready for some serious trails in a month or so. So far I've made a couple of trips to Jawbone Canyon and the gold mine trails toward Ridgecrest. Was in last chance canyon last week and almost did get lost trying to find my way out before dark.

racheldarlin - 2-13-2011 at 04:31 PM

TW

In your original post and all since then there is no mention made of a goal of saving lives or anything other than going where nobody else has gone before and to do it while Mex regulations are so relaxed.

I have been wheelin for a lot of years and belong to several reputable clubs. The emphasis has always been - IMPROVE YOUR RIG AND YOUR SKILLS - not the trail (no matter how Mother Nature may have changed it.)

Show us some photos of you and your build out over coming a really nasty waterfall and I would be less critical.

Ken Cooke - 2-13-2011 at 07:23 PM

I don't think TW plans on actually traveling where no man has never before been. That is a pretty big exaggeration, Rachel. Moving rocks has been done to create the Johnson Valley trails, and the BLM has sanctioned this on the land it oversees. Unfortunately, this land will be turned over to the Twentynine Palms Marine Base for training purposes. You want to see environmental decimation? Stay tuned. :no:

Barry A. - 2-13-2011 at 07:50 PM

Anza-Borrego Desert State Park---------access to Collins Valley------on a Park-sanctioned "road" that is so tough & rough that I "move rocks" every time I drive in there, to protect my vehicle from damage.

I was a Park Ranger (Natl. Park Service & BLM) for some 30 years--------there is NOTHING illegal or wrong about "moving rocks" on an established & sanctioned trail or road, even tho Nature may try to close it from time to time------it's expected that people will "move rocks".

Any argument otherwise is a red-herring, if you ask me.

Barry

TMW - 2-13-2011 at 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by racheldarlin
TW

In your original post and all since then there is no mention made of a goal of saving lives or anything other than going where nobody else has gone before and to do it while Mex regulations are so relaxed.

I have been wheelin for a lot of years and belong to several reputable clubs. The emphasis has always been - IMPROVE YOUR RIG AND YOUR SKILLS - not the trail (no matter how Mother Nature may have changed it.)

Show us some photos of you and your build out over coming a really nasty waterfall and I would be less critical.

I'm not sure what you mean by lax Mexican regulations. Non-paved roads in Baja are controlled by the property owner or the Ejido. If it is marked keep out or no trespassing I stay out. If it is a closed gate I will close it when I go thru.

I must assume you do most or all of your off roading in the US from what you say belonging to several clubs. There are few if any waterfalls to climb in Baja that I'm aware of, but that is not what I do anyway.

I drive and ride the trails used mostly for off-road racing but also to explore various areas I've not been to or maybe to visit people I met on a previous trip or to take supplies to some of the remote ranchos in need. There are ranchos all over and many in very remote areas. I use Google Earth to look at a trail to see if it looks OK from point to point then check it out. If I have to move rocks to get thru I'll do so. Many of the roads in Baja travel near and in arroyos and when it rains or there is a hurricane the road may get blocked from boulders washed into the path. Mexicans will find a way around them and often later do the repair. Sometimes they don't have the means to repair the road.

I am not familiar with the road 4x4 worked on but it may very well be near a remote rancho that stopped using it because of the damage.

My off road vehicles are a 2004 GMC Z71 with a 2 inch leveling kit and 33 inch tires and a 2004 Toyota Tacoma 4x4 that I'm working on getting ready for Baja with a few things still to do.

BAJACAT - 2-13-2011 at 08:04 PM

Damm those missionaries that created the Camino Real... :fire:

destroying all that Baja landscape, but wait back then the Baja wasn't the Baja, therefore let me refrace my firts comment."PRAISE DOES MISSIONERIES FOR OPENING EL CAMINO REAL FOR US... Baja rds here we go.....

[Edited on 2-14-2011 by BAJACAT]

TMW - 2-13-2011 at 08:17 PM

That red Dodge better be able to keep up with my Silver GMC next weekend. And Lou better have some good 4x4 trails picked out.

BAJACAT - 2-13-2011 at 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
That red Dodge better be able to keep up with my Silver GMC next weekend. And Lou better have some good 4x4 trails picked out.

Dont worry TW I carry 2 tow straps with me all the time in case I need to pull you out :lol:

see you in SF.. thanks 4 comming.

4x4abc - 2-13-2011 at 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
Well Mr Squarecircle when are we going to Baja for another adventure?????

Well, Mr. TW,

go visit my web site and you'll find out when the next adventure is scheduled: Baja Extreme Adventures

No need to call me Mr Squarecircle as I always sign posts with my full name - using real names is so much more civilized I think. However, I like your creative idea of using "Mr Squarecircle"

Pacifico - 2-13-2011 at 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
Well Mr Squarecircle when are we going to Baja for another adventure?????

The Squarecircle is another member on this forum.....

BAJACAT - 2-13-2011 at 08:48 PM

I think he was talking about Roy the SQUARECIRCLE, who help me with my flat tire that i got on the way to Matomi in the Nomad trail ride

4x4abc - 2-13-2011 at 09:05 PM

Quote:

I understand both your emotional outcries. Yes, nature needs to be saved and protected and I am very involved in reducing unnecessary harm. I have been teaching responsible 4-wheeling and treading lightly for more than 25 years. I would not dare creating new tracks.

If you would only read carefully enough how I have announced our planned adventure. Plan was to follow an existing but badly neglected road

racheldarlin - 2-14-2011 at 08:22 AM

TW, Ken, DK, Barry, et al:

We all seem to really enjoy wheelin the outback and I particularly enjoy the Baja because there is so much of it without roads, trails, and roads and trails that Nature has reclaimed. I for one would like to see it stay that way.

We just seem to fundamentally disagree in our approach to the sport. Have good adventures and TREAD LIGHTLY.

TMW - 2-14-2011 at 09:40 AM

I'm sorry Hearld (4x4) I assumed everyone knew I was talking about Roy (squarecircle). Roy is a master explorer who loves a good adventure thru Baja. He has a friend, Richard, who I swear is related to Daniel Boone with his trail searching abilities.

Hopefully you and I can get together for a Baja adventure in the near future. This weekend Bajacat and I and a few other Nomads will be in San Felipe exploring some canyons and other trails. It should be a lot of fun.

Ken Cooke - 2-14-2011 at 09:41 AM

The way I do things in Baja is, if there is a road that 'ends' due to erosion with the road appearing past the field of debris, I attempt to travel on that route to reach my destination. If a trail is blocked due to boulders, I try to move those boulders *before* driving off the trail and around the boulder. This creates additional erosion and becomes problematic in the long-term.

Simply driving on virgin soil (in the desert) depleats the top layer of soil and it takes 99 years to return to its' natural state. Therefore, I try to *hike* only on paths and not walk out wherever I feel like it.

Treading lightly goes for hiking as well as 4wd travel. :light:

David K - 2-14-2011 at 09:46 AM

Right... Baja has plenty of roads and we don't go out and make new ones. Grab a Baja Almanac or search Google Earth and find a road to explore!
The term 'Off Road' means off pavement or off highway...

Ken Cooke - 2-14-2011 at 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Right... Baja has plenty of roads and we don't go out and make new ones. Grab a Baja Almanac or search Google Earth and find a road to explore!
The term 'Off Road' means off pavement or off highway...

So many 'Green' persons do not understand this, David. Of all of the blown BFGoodrich tires caused by traveling on established dirt roads, if it were over creosote and ocotillo, that number would jump exponentially!

Look what happened to this unfortunate 'Off Roader' :lol:

Quote taken from Walt Peterson's "Baja Adventure Book"

Ken Cooke - 2-14-2011 at 10:55 AM

"The term "Off-road" is misleading, for other than driving on beaches, dry lakes, and similar special situations, there is no "off-road" driving in Baja, nor should there be. Driving across untracked desert creates environmental havoc, tearing up slow-growing desert vegetation and leaving scars that endure for generations. Such driving is almost always unnecessary, since unpaved roads will usually be found to take you anywhere you want to go. In addition, it can often result in severe tire damage within a few miles, and even the fabled Baja 1,000 racers wouldn't go a mile if the race were truly off-road. Thus, although the term "off-road" is used throughout this book, keep in mind that what is meant is off-pavement driving."

Walt Peterson - Baja Adventure Book pp. 62-63. Wilderness Press, Berkeley, CA. 1992.

Baja12valve - 2-14-2011 at 12:38 PM

As a potential "like minded person" where and when is your next trip? I don't see anything in this thread. Thanks.

racheldarlin - 2-14-2011 at 02:02 PM

I tried to walk out of this "bar brawl" gracefully but alas!

Peterson's book is a general guide to adventuring in Baja. He does not hold himself out to be an avid fan or proponent of offroading. His definition is "his" definition and he, in fact, adds the qualification "in this book." Do you think he would consider the Rubicon Trail not really offroad? Or Moab Devils Bowl?

As far as the label green you keep trying to pin on me - I totally reject Petersons argument about driving on virgin desert as environmental nonsense and I will cut down an entire forest for a rational purpose. No, the motto Tread Lightly does not mean don't Tread at all. What it does mean is leave your damn chain saws, shovels, picks, and backhoes at home. If your adventure fails because your don't have these things then it should fail. Frankly, I did not see anything in TWs photos that a stock Jeep, Toyota 4by, etc with a competent driver couldn't handle.

Finally, don't keep coming up with these "straw man" arguments to justify what you do. Do it - but don't expect everyone to applaud or stay silent.

Barry A. - 2-14-2011 at 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by racheldarlin
I tried to walk out of this "bar brawl" gracefully but alas!

Peterson's book is a general guide to adventuring in Baja. He does not hold himself out to be an avid fan or proponent of offroading. His definition is "his" definition and he, in fact, adds the qualification "in this book." Do you think he would consider the Rubicon Trail not really offroad? Or Moab Devils Bowl?

As far as the label green you keep trying to pin on me - I totally reject Petersons argument about driving on virgin desert as environmental nonsense and I will cut down an entire forest for a rational purpose. No, the motto Tread Lightly does not mean don't Tread at all. What it does mean is leave your damn chain saws, shovels, picks, and backhoes at home. If your adventure fails because your don't have these things then it should fail. Frankly, I did not see anything in TWs photos that a stock Jeep, Toyota 4by, etc with a competent driver couldn't handle.

Finally, don't keep coming up with these "straw man" arguments to justify what you do. Do it - but don't expect everyone to applaud or stay silent.

Rachel darlin--------Me thinks you are chasing wind mills--------we ALL generally agree with you. I would point out tho, as one of the authors of TREAD LIGHTLY in that I was with BLM for years as a Recreation Specialist in the CA desert, that you are over-interpreting the TREAD LIGHTLY program somewhat-------the programs touts the obvious, in that it just encourages you to act responsibly when using the Public Lands, and we ALL know generally what that means-----it never intended the non-use of shovels, etc. when used appropriately. It just encourages folks to not abuse the land indescriminately, that's all, which is what everybody here is saying and agrees with, it seems to me. You may choose to personally interpret the program more narrowly, but that narrow interpretation was NOT it's intention when formulated. I know because I was there.

Nothing described in this thread goes against TREAD LIGHTLY, as far as I am concerned, and I was responsible for enforcing the law on those matters, tho admittantly quite a long time ago.

And by the way, the Rubicon Trail is a legal and sanctioned trail, and it's use by vehicles is appropriate, from a legal point of view. Not familiar with your Moab one, tho.

Barry

racheldarlin - 2-14-2011 at 03:01 PM

Barry, let me try this approach. My problem with this thread is not that I think TW or anyone that he hangs with is irreparably harming the environment or wants to. My problem is that the photos posted give a false impression of what off-roading is all about. As we all know perception can become reality. True wacko environmentalists see this stuff and soon you have entire areas shut down to anything but foot traffic.

racheldarlin - 2-14-2011 at 03:16 PM

PS

Perhaps I am being unnecessary purist but I've had to defend off-roading too many times in my 67 seven years to not be sensitive to any presentations that could be used to assault it.

Ken Cooke - 2-14-2011 at 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by racheldarlin
PS

Perhaps I am being unnecessary purist but I've had to defend off-roading too many times in my 67 seven years to not be sensitive to any presentations that could be used to assault it.

I also had to defend the Off-road sport over the years, primarily to people who already had made up their minds that they did not like this sport.

I was asked by close friends of my ex-wife how I felt about the "Baja 1000 Races" and how they fostered positive feelings among people from both Mexico and the United States? I already knew that when they asked how I felt "Politically" about the 'Baja 1000', that they had been reading literature by the Sierra Club or Wilderness Coalition, etc. The husband drove a gutless 2wd Toyota p/u, and the wife drove a Volvo wagon. Needless to say, after driving this pickup, I vowed never to own one myself.

Barry A. - 2-14-2011 at 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by racheldarlin
Barry, let me try this approach. My problem with this thread is not that I think TW or anyone that he hangs with is irreparably harming the environment or wants to. My problem is that the photos posted give a false impression of what off-roading is all about. As we all know perception can become reality. True wacko environmentalists see this stuff and soon you have entire areas shut down to anything but foot traffic.

Hmmmmmmmmm, interesting take. Tho you may be right, "environmental wackos" are just that------wackos--------and I, for one, refuse to be influenced by what wackos "may" perceive just to possibly avoid offending them. That would be taking PC to the extreme limits, it seems to me, and that just leads to more PC behavior to the detriment of the main-stream point of view and understanding of what is really happening and normal thoughts. I hate PC'ness------it is just so distorting and condesending, and really fouls up communication. Little can be solved if we don't say what we mean.

But, I understand your point-------- we probably should 'agree to disagree' as neither one of us is getting anywhere, I suspect.

Happy Valentines Day. Peace and Love. :tumble:

Barry

racheldarlin - 2-14-2011 at 05:46 PM

Ken and Barry,

'Nuff said. Beers for all - on me. I'm off for 5 days into the wilds. Take care.

marv sherrill - 2-14-2011 at 06:20 PM

Boy never skip from page 1 to page 4 on this thread - one can get lost easily - like taking a wrong turn off! But, of course, you can always just go the opposite way...

TMW - 2-14-2011 at 07:42 PM

I'm confused just trying to understand how climbing waterfalls in a 4x4 is OK but rebuilding an existing road is not OK.

I do wonder where you go Rachel when in Baja. I mean do you go to Mike's Sky Rancho? Do you visit the various remote missions? Do you travel the coastal areas? Do you stay on existing roads only or try and find that cool waterfall?

Actually I do know of one near the Pole LIne Rd close to Basketball Ball Hill.

On Ken's next trip you could come along and we could get a better ideal of your rock climbing abilities and techniques, maybe some of Ken's Jeep buddies would join in, I've seen them crawl over giant rocks. I mean this in a sincere effort to bridge the gap amoung us.

4x4abc - 2-14-2011 at 09:28 PM

Interesting discussion!

Glad you mentioned the Rubicon Trail. It has been my summer workplace since 1987. Every day.
Its a county right of way that anyone can use. Few restrictions. And yes, after the winter snow no driver would venture out there without carrying a chain saw (and they are used extensively). The trail has deteriorated so badly over the years exactly because drivers do not fill in a few rocks but instead use brute force to overcome obstacles. And spinning tires create more erosion. That's definitely not treading lightly.
Since erosion has created a roadbed that is several feet below where it was 50 years ago, DOT was forced to step in. With chains saws, shovels, picks and front loaders. Trail maintenance. The government version.
See pictures below (its not how you remembered the Rubicon)

[Edited on 2-15-2011 by 4x4abc]

Ducks - 2-14-2011 at 10:04 PM

Hey Harald,

Just saw this thread. I absolutely must join you on one of your extreme adventures. But my plans for Baja aren't until December. If you are still doing it then, I'd love to come along. It looks amazing.

Chad

TheBajaKid - 2-14-2011 at 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Cooke
"The term "Off-road" is misleading, for other than driving on beaches, dry lakes, and similar special situations, there is no "off-road" driving in Baja, nor should there be. Driving across untracked desert creates environmental havoc, tearing up slow-growing desert vegetation and leaving scars that endure for generations. Such driving is almost always unnecessary, since unpaved roads will usually be found to take you anywhere you want to go. In addition, it can often result in severe tire damage within a few miles, and even the fabled Baja 1,000 racers wouldn't go a mile if the race were truly off-road. Thus, although the term "off-road" is used throughout this book, keep in mind that what is meant is off-pavement driving."

Walt Peterson - Baja Adventure Book pp. 62-63. Wilderness Press, Berkeley, CA. 1992.

Hey Ken Your wrong and so is your buddy Walt.
The 1000 is mapped out as a course with check points.
Many racers take "shortcuts" or blaze there own trail/road.
A big part of prerunning is finding areas that you can make your own path through the desert, to get to the next check point faster.

4x4abc - 2-14-2011 at 10:50 PM

yes, racers used to take shortcuts - today every participant carries a mandatory SPOT device (since 2008). The entire world can now witness on the internet if a driver would take a shortcut. So, the time of shortcuts is over.

Barry A. - 2-14-2011 at 10:51 PM

--------and that statement by the BajaKid just might be another nail in the coffin of the Baja 1000.

Good Grief!!!!

Barry

David K - 2-15-2011 at 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
--------and that statement by the BajaKid just might be another nail in the coffin of the Baja 1000.

Good Grief!!!!

Barry

Only if it were true Barry...

Like other enviro wacko statements, this one has little to no truth to it...... As said above, they all have GPS trackers and get fined or disqualified for leaving the course... Also, there is no speed in cross country travel because of large rocks, plants, arroyos... They all stay on the marked roads. When a racer did shortcut, it was a route he had previously found and did not cut down trees or bulldoze a road... The last one I recall hapenning was when Robby Gordon short-cutted into Matomi Canyon from Valle Chico and it created a huge uproar from fellow racers...

Now, how about when Green Peace slammed their ship 'Rainbow Warrior' into a fragile corral reef in French Polynesia? Should they stop their activities?

Nature is a lot tougher than the enviros want to give her credit for... The desert is a very tough place and compared to flash floods and earthquakes, off road racing is harmless.

Brian L - 2-15-2011 at 08:53 AM

I think Bajakids point of pre-runners taking short cuts is valid. What is the ratio of pre-runners to racers? Also during the race, fans and racer's buddy's take shortcuts all day. Especially when the 1000 is looped.

David K - 2-15-2011 at 08:59 AM

Pre-runners are racers checking the course before the race... Others out there are just folks having fun like us in Baja... doing what ever they do and spending money in Mexico... There are roads all over Baja... going cross country is not only counter-productive to getting someplace, it is usually impossible for the reasons I already gave.

Now, you can go ahead and use the theory that if you say a lie enough times it becomes the truth... but, don't you really want to be accurate. Do off road racing fans try and take away your activity in Baja?

TMW - 2-15-2011 at 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian L
I think Bajakids point of pre-runners taking short cuts is valid. What is the ratio of pre-runners to racers? Also during the race, fans and racer's buddy's take shortcuts all day. Especially when the 1000 is looped.

What do you mean by a shortcut? I pre-run many sections of the Baja race courses and I follow the race on race day chasing for a bike racer and if you are implying they (anyone) are cutting across virgin land give me an example so I have a better picture of what you mean. The only thing I can think of at the moment is when the owner openned up his property near KM 33 off hwy 3 for people to park and pit or watch the race and he charged $5 per vehicle. Another area where I've seen vehicles go short distances over virgin land is at the Borrego pit area near KM 177 off hwy 3 and they usually do so to get to a pit or leave from a pit to the road coming in, we're talking yards here not miles. I will say that because of the many races run thru Borrego I don't know if one could really call it virgin around the pit areas.

As DK said no one here condones just taking out cross country. before the tracking devices several bikers and some car/truck racers did find cheat spots along the course, I know of a few. These were mostly the top racers trying to get a edge to win. Some are very well known names. But I also believe the majority of racers were racing for sport and fun and not interested in cheating and followed the ribbons and arrows and stayed within 50 feet of the center line of the course as were and are the rules for off road racing.

Now with the trackers they can not cheat and get away with it and there have been a remarkable closeness in the results. Yes the top factory bike teams (usually Honda) still win. And no it's not a conspiracy between Honda and SCORE it's call preperation and having the top racers. No body, not even KTM or the Kawasaki team a year or so ago can match what Honda does to get ready for these races. The time spent pre-running and preparing the bikes for all the different riders.

The trophy Trucks are such an even match in handling and power and with so many really good drivers it's a toss up who will win. It's not always the fastest but usually the one with the least down time and fewest problems such as flats etc. Same for class one.

TheBajaKid - 2-15-2011 at 12:12 PM

Because I'm not the type of individual to laugh at other's vehicles, nor do I put others down for the type of vehicle they choose to drive.
quote from Ken Cook

The husband drove a gutless 2wd Toyota p/u, and the wife drove a Volvo wagon.
quote from Ken Cook

Ken If you drive like you talk i bet you back up alot.

When a racer did shortcut, it was a route he had previously found
quote from David k

David k that is called pre-running and yeah they have IRC devices now and only for the last few years. the book Ken cook was quoting was written in 92' When racers would make or find there own routs from check point to Check point not always staying on the roads. Ive seen it with my own eyes.

TheBajaKid - 2-15-2011 at 12:25 PM

As DK said no one here condones just taking out cross country. before the tracking devices several bikers and some car/truck racers did find cheat spots along the course, I know of a few. These were mostly the top racers trying to get a edge to win. Some are very well known names. But I also believe the majority of racers were racing for sport and fun and not interested in cheating and followed the ribbons and arrows and stayed within 50 feet of the center line of the course as were and are the rules for off road racing.
quote from TW

TW has it always been in the SCORE rule book to drive within 50 feet of the center line of course?

TMW - 2-15-2011 at 12:32 PM

Probably one of the most famous shortcuts and seen by millions in the movies shot from a helicopter was in the 2003 Baja 1000 race when Johnny Campbell cut to the beach section trying to catch the Honda B team and race leader Andy Grider. He did it twice but didn't catch Andy. Honda when prerunning will find a section like that and will usually go to SCORE to clear it as OK since it is over 50 feet from the center line. Johnny did catch a lot of heat over it when the movie came out as many thought he was cheating and I think SCORE did two for what many thought was just overlooked it giving Honda a pass. The problem with something like that is that not everybody knows if it is OK, now I've been told that SCORE did mentioned it at the rider/drivers meeting. I really don't know as I was not at the meeting.

Sorry the movie is "Dust to Glory" by Bruce Brown's son.

[Edited on 2-15-2011 by TW]

TheBajaKid - 2-15-2011 at 12:52 PM

One movie one shortcut , and his name was Dana Brown

TMW - 2-15-2011 at 01:24 PM

Kid do you race or did you race? Or do you chase, pit or spectate? Or do you not have anything to do with Baja racing?

what does the car say about the man?

mtgoat666 - 2-15-2011 at 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Cooke
I already knew that when they asked how I felt "Politically" about the 'Baja 1000', that they had been reading literature by the Sierra Club or Wilderness Coalition, etc. The husband drove a gutless 2wd Toyota p/u, and the wife drove a Volvo wagon.

ken,
are you 15 years old? you will make a big mistake in life if you judge people by the cars they drive. some people have misplaced priorities and are obsessed with their cars and other peoples cars. some people don't give a rats *ss what they drive, as long as they got a radio and AC!

i prefer comfort, reliability and safety - your jeep has none of those :lol:

i suspect at 60 mph you can't even hear the radio

:lol:

TheBajaKid - 2-15-2011 at 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
Kid do you race or did you race? Or do you chase, pit or spectate? Or do you not have anything to do with Baja racing?

TW I wish i could afford to race. I have chased/pitted and have been to many Baja and Socal race events.

TMW - 2-15-2011 at 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

i suspect at 60 mph you can't even hear the radio

:lol:

Goat what do you drive?

Hey, Goat - That hurts! A Lot!

Ken Cooke - 2-15-2011 at 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

i suspect at 60 mph you can't even hear the radio

:lol:

I thought we were friends...

mtgoat666 - 2-15-2011 at 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

i suspect at 60 mph you can't even hear the radio

:lol:

Goat what do you drive?

toyota 4runner and a couple other japanese cars

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Cooke

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

i suspect at 60 mph you can't even hear the radio

:lol:

I thought we were friends...

still are. you just need to thicken your skin.

never attack a liberal in a volvo. i happen to like the stereotype of liberals driving volvos :lol:

i have owned a few in my day.

Where's that "Baja Love"??

Ken Cooke - 2-15-2011 at 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheBajaKid
Ken If you drive like you talk i bet you back up alot.

When a racer did shortcut, it was a route he had previously found
quote from David k

Hey, kid. Lay off. Thank you...

Goodnight. :saint:

TMW - 2-16-2011 at 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
Goat what do you drive?

toyota 4runner

Is it a 4x4? You and DK should be best of friends sharing a Toyota moment.

mtgoat666 - 2-16-2011 at 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
Goat what do you drive?

toyota 4runner

Is it a 4x4? You and DK should be best of friends sharing a Toyota moment.

TiddlyWinks:
it's just a car, not a phallus :lol:

Toyota vs. Jeep

Ken Cooke - 2-16-2011 at 05:47 PM

When I drove the 2WD Toyota pickup, the vehicle had very little torque, power, and I was very low to the ground - like an econo passenger car. People looked at me like, "Look what the trash brought in" - like the type of vehicle you drive when you are trying to get back on your feet.

The Rubicon has seat-of-your pants torque, but not a crazy top-end which is okay with me. It isn't the quietest vehicle - it is very loud, actually. But, when you are cruising with the top off, or open, it is a total blast. It feels like I'm 15 yrs old when I drive it which makes the occasional commute lots of fun.

I know people love Toyota trucks in this forum, and I respect their choices. I prefer a vehicle to be more capable on the 4WD trail, and less car-like, so I opted for the Jeep Rubicon. The drivetrain components are more practical for my needs - Dana 44s, Air Locked Differentials, Straight axle suspension, etc. If I needed a vehicle with a shorter step-in height, less off-road capability, more car-like ride, and better economy I would have opted for the Toyota.

Ducks - 2-16-2011 at 05:52 PM

:?:

you're comparing a 2wd mini-truck to a 4x4 jeep. Apples to Oranges. Compare a 4x4 jeep to a 4x4 toyota and then see what happens. How about an fj40 or fj70 to a rubicon? Something that is more apples to apples.

Baja12valve - 2-16-2011 at 05:52 PM

........uhhhhhhh, doesn't the Rubicon have Eaton e-lockers? No air there.

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