BajaNomad

Amazing murder statistics

Bajamick - 1-26-2011 at 10:12 AM

Here is a set of statistics that I gleaned from my home page, the BBC World News, two days ago on January 24th. Very interesting for those that believe Baja is a dangerous place, or even most of Mexico compared to say New York City. (Please note that stats are for NY CITY, not New York State). Also look at the murders in California, and LA itself, and I would suggest that Mexico, but especially BCS rates as a very safe place to live, as I do, or to visit.

Listed below are the names of all Mexican States in order of lowest to highest murders that are drug related from 2009 to 2010. A two year period. These figures according to the BBC, are official Mexican Government figures.

Note, Baja California Sur ranks equal third with Compeche for the LEAST deaths.

State... Number of Murders

Yucatan 2
Tlaxcala 4
Baja California Sur 10
Campeche 10
Queretaro 13
Zacatecas 37
Aguascalientes 46
Puebla 51
Hidalgo 52
Quintana Roo 64
Tabasco 73
Chiapas 77
San Luis Potosi 135
Guanajuato 152
Oaxaca 167
Vera Cruz 179
Distrito Federal 191
Morelos 335
Nayarit 377
Coahuila 384
Sonora 495
Michoacan 520
Baja California Norte 540
Jalisco 593
Nuevo Leon 620
Mexico State 623
Durango 834
Guerrero 1137
Tamaulipas 1209
Sinaloa 1815
Chihuahua 4427
Total drug related deaths 2009/2010 15,172

NOW, compare those figures taken over TWO years with New York CITY alone in just ONE year, 2010. 532 murders (all kinds, not just drug related admittedly). That figure of 532 is UP 13% on 2009, yet is the 4th lowest number of murders per year in NYC since records began in 1962. Amazing!!

The state of California. In 2009, again just ONE year, there were 1,972 murders. Now that is almost the same as Sinaloa in TWO years. Yet Mexico is a dangerous place. Amazing!!

Los Angeles City. In just the first quarter of 2010 (the latest figures I could find) there were 70 murders. Now that’s just in the city area. Extrapolate that to two years, and one gets an average of 560 murders in just LA city area. That is virtually the same as Baja California Norte in its entire length at 540. Amazing!!

Amazing!! Amazing how people, especially the US media and government state that Mexico is a dangerous place to visit, to live, to play.
For those of us that know and love Baja in particular, and Mexico in general, I think we should spread the word with these figures, because we know the truth!!

wilderone - 1-26-2011 at 10:48 AM

amazing how people don't think for themselves and embrace cold statistics to dictate their choices. the comparisons are feckless numbers. what I would glean from the above numbers is that if I were a drug dealer, my days might be numbered if I decided to run my business out of Chihuahua. has little relevance to a tourist on vacation, either in NYC, LA or Baja CA.

David K - 1-26-2011 at 10:49 AM

This type of slanted news reporting (by the U.S. media) is much like the news the Soviet Union fed its people... Bad things only happen in OTHER countries, so the pressure on the dictatorship is reduced.

bajaguy - 1-26-2011 at 10:51 AM

If you want to reduce those numbers, check on the US State Department's web site for AMERICANS killed in Mexico/Baja.

LancairDriver - 1-26-2011 at 10:51 AM

Thanks for the info Bajamick! Great job of data mining. This is the kind of information that hopefully could help turn things around for Baja visitors attitude on traveling there.

David K - 1-26-2011 at 10:54 AM

... and even better, Americans on vacation... Not some American citizens in the drug business in Mexico...

Many 'American's reported killed by our media have latino names and were nowhere near a tourist location!

Bajamick - 1-26-2011 at 12:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
amazing how people don't think for themselves and embrace cold statistics to dictate their choices. the comparisons are feckless numbers. what I would glean from the above numbers is that if I were a drug dealer, my days might be numbered if I decided to run my business out of Chihuahua. has little relevance to a tourist on vacation, either in NYC, LA or Baja CA.


"Amazing" to use an oft used expression, how some people misunderstand the intention of the stat's as I posted them. The intention was and is simply, to show that Mexico in general, and BCS in particular, are safe places to live, visit and play.

Of course any stat's can be taken out of context, read and used as a person views them, but as both Bajaguy and David K supported, it is not tourists that are in any more danger here than elsewhere.

It is the US media that is crippling Mexico, and again Baja in particular because, as you correctly stated, there is little relevence to a tourist here on vacation as opposed to vacationing in NYC, LA or indeed anywhere in California. So I wonder why the media and the US State Department feel the need to issue warnings etc for Mexico. They should by numbers, equally state those same warnings for NYC, LA and California.

All I am trying to say is that Mexico is a safe place to live, visit and/or play in. So yes, I did think for myself there, and yes, I do think that life here in Baja is wonderful, one might even say, "amazing."

BTW, you are most probably correct. It is, I am sure, a good thing that you are not a drug dealer trying your luck in Chihuahua!!

Huh?

Dave - 1-26-2011 at 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajamick
The state of California. In 2009, again just ONE year, there were 1,972 murders. Now that is almost the same as Sinaloa in TWO years. Yet Mexico is a dangerous place. Amazing!!


The population of California is 20 times that of Sinaloa. :rolleyes:

Bajamick - 1-26-2011 at 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajamick
The state of California. In 2009, again just ONE year, there were 1,972 murders. Now that is almost the same as Sinaloa in TWO years. Yet Mexico is a dangerous place. Amazing!!


The population of California is 20 times that of Sinaloa. :rolleyes:


Dave, I would not argue or disagree with you there, but I was speaking about drug related murders in Mexico, and of shall I say "general" murders in California. Just making flexible comparisons. I was simply trying to say that for tourists, be that Americans, Canadians or Europeans, Mexico is as safe as elsewhere.

mcfez - 1-26-2011 at 12:41 PM

Bajamick .....you are correct. Mexico is just as safe as most countries. Damn near every story of these deaths are all about the cartels......fighting within, at each other, against the Govt declared war. I dont see much news from Mexico about everyday crime waves otherwise. In fact, the news of Mexico in general is bout the same as it is in the USA, Germany, or say Belize.

We had a "cartel" war years ago in California. it was to break up the gangs of east Los Angeles. Many deaths. Same for Oakland.


And someone here at BN said we should legalize the use of drugs :lol:

Cypress - 1-26-2011 at 12:43 PM

Not all drugs, just pot.;)

DavidE - 1-26-2011 at 01:01 PM

As a resident I can tell you that crime in general tracks the murder rate Where there is smoke there is fire so to speak. Where there is a lot of violence the cops are involved (local PD). Where there is a lot of violence the violence includes the cops and being underpaid they are afraid to patrol, at all. A single cop spots three men walking, holding automatic weapons: What do you think his response is going to be...

a) stop and arrest them after a vigorous balacera

b) radio it in and prepare an ambush

c) what people? where? do you know how vulnerable I am?

mcfez - 1-26-2011 at 01:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Not all drugs, just pot.;)


Medical user, yes? :saint:

krafty - 1-26-2011 at 01:05 PM

Seems to me the stat for northern Baja is kinda high

akshadow - 1-26-2011 at 01:14 PM

The major difference I believe is when in the US and call the police Americans believe they are going to get help and have a corruption free policeman> I am not sure they feel that way in Mexico.
Prices in San Felipe are not much cheaper than many areas in the US. Border waits make trips a real hassle. Not speaking the language is a further problem.
I live in Alaska so am really put off by long lines and waits.

Dave - 1-26-2011 at 01:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajamick
I was simply trying to say that for tourists, be that Americans, Canadians or Europeans, Mexico is as safe as elsewhere.


Elsewhere, where?

America, Canada and Central Europe have murder rates of 5, 1.8 and 1.5, respectively.

In Mexico it's 15.

Look, I never obsess about safety in Mexico, rarely give it a second thought. However, to claim that Mexico is as safe as elsewhere is misleading...and wrong.

bajatravelergeorge - 1-26-2011 at 01:30 PM

Take out the drug on drug murders and you end up with a rate well below that of America.

sanquintinsince73 - 1-26-2011 at 01:30 PM

People who "don't know" sit back in their armchairs and say "f*** Mexico,I'm not going there". Let them stay home in Kansas or Minnesota or anywhere in between, we don't need anymore greenhorns mucking up our landscape. Those of us in the "know" who truly love and respect Baja and it's people will continue to enjoy our paradise.

When I lived in Baja full-time I knew some people who disappeared and later re-appeared lifeless, but these people were running with the cartels. For the most part, Americans aren't the target of cartels.

Tbone - 1-26-2011 at 01:31 PM

These stats compare apples and oranges. To compare Sinaloa to California, New York or Los Angeles without taking into account population is meaningless.

Murder rate takes into account population and is therefore useful data.

monoloco - 1-26-2011 at 01:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajamick
I was simply trying to say that for tourists, be that Americans, Canadians or Europeans, Mexico is as safe as elsewhere.


Elsewhere, where?

America, Canada and Central Europe have murder rates of 5, 1.8 and 1.5, respectively.

In Mexico it's 15.

Look, I never obsess about safety in Mexico, rarely give it a second thought. However, to claim that Mexico is as safe as elsewhere is misleading...and wrong.
That's an interesting statistic in that the chances of being murdered in the US is 3 times greater than being murdered in Central Europe. I guess that should give Europeans about as much concern in considering a visit to the US, as it does US residents about visiting Mexico, with 3 times the murder rate as the US. If I was a European, I might want to go to Spain instead.

Cypress - 1-26-2011 at 01:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mcfez
Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Not all drugs, just pot.;)


Medical user, yes? :saint:

Of course.:biggrin:

4x4abc - 1-26-2011 at 01:34 PM

Dave,

3 million Americans visit Mexico each year - 1 million live there permanently

if your murder rate of 15 was correct, 600 Americans would have been killed in Mexico - it would have been on TV

fact is that 59 Americans lost their lives to violence in Mexico (2007 numbers)

Dave - 1-26-2011 at 01:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajatravelergeorge
Take out the drug on drug murders and you end up with a rate well below that of America.


And what if you took out the drug/gang murders in America? ;D

Apples to oranges

Dave - 1-26-2011 at 01:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 4x4abc
if your murder rate of 15 was correct, 600 Americans would have been killed in Mexico - it would have been on TV


You really expect murder rates to equally apply to tourists...those who spend a fraction of the year in country?

And Expats? How many live in the Barrio?

bajatravelergeorge - 1-26-2011 at 02:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by bajatravelergeorge
Take out the drug on drug murders and you end up with a rate well below that of America.


And what if you took out the drug/gang murders in America? ;D



Don't know, but it would be an interesting study. I work and don't have the time to compile the data. Maybe you could do it, or someone with alot of extra time.

4x4abc - 1-26-2011 at 02:44 PM

well Dave, then lets exclude the tourists all together

59 violent crimes resulting in death on 1 million Americans living in Mexico = 5.9/100,000

compare that yourself to the US rates:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-...

how about a vacation in Louisiana? 11.8/100,000 !

[Edited on 1-26-2011 by 4x4abc]

Bajahowodd - 1-26-2011 at 03:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajamick
I was simply trying to say that for tourists, be that Americans, Canadians or Europeans, Mexico is as safe as elsewhere.


Elsewhere, where?

America, Canada and Central Europe have murder rates of 5, 1.8 and 1.5, respectively.

In Mexico it's 15.

Look, I never obsess about safety in Mexico, rarely give it a second thought. However, to claim that Mexico is as safe as elsewhere is misleading...and wrong.
That's an interesting statistic in that the chances of being murdered in the US is 3 times greater than being murdered in Central Europe. I guess that should give Europeans about as much concern in considering a visit to the US, as it does US residents about visiting Mexico, with 3 times the murder rate as the US. If I was a European, I might want to go to Spain instead.


I'm really not looking to start a debate over guns. But, with respect to your comparison between Europe and the US, there is one glaring difference between the two. The prolifieration, or lack thereof of guns. Just makes sense to me that overall, a society that has far fewer guns floating around is going to have fewer murders. There's just no easier and efficient way to kill folks than with a gun.

Rightbackatcha

Dave - 1-26-2011 at 03:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 4x4abc
how about a vacation in Louisiana? 11.8/100,000 !


How about a vacation in Juarez? 133/100,000

You can manipulate statistics to say almost anything.

However, and on average, the U.S. is safer than Mexico. Just as Canada is safer than both.

Personally, I could care less.

Feathers - 1-26-2011 at 08:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sanquintinsince73
People who "don't know" sit back in their armchairs and say "f*** Mexico,I'm not going there". Let them stay home in Kansas or Minnesota or anywhere in between, we don't need anymore greenhorns mucking up our landscape. Those of us in the "know" who truly love and respect Baja and it's people will continue to enjoy our paradise.


:bounce: I couldn't agree more!:bounce:

captkw - 1-26-2011 at 09:24 PM

wow!! I will put my head on the chopping block,cause I know I have more mile's than both of you compined...ya IM arrougt,have you drove to panama and back,alaska &back 9 time's , 31 winter's in baja,ran boat's to every island you find in a normal feul cell,,,,,but sit there(cause you dont seem imformed) and say the us is safer than mex..!!! get your channel cker ohh , you never sat it down did ya????its still in your hand....mex is much safer than the usa,,,,and that's a simple fact of life.....bye the way I won't argue with you ,as that would make two FOOL'S

Woooosh - 1-26-2011 at 09:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
Quote:
Originally posted by sanquintinsince73
People who "don't know" sit back in their armchairs and say "f*** Mexico,I'm not going there". Let them stay home in Kansas or Minnesota or anywhere in between, we don't need anymore greenhorns mucking up our landscape. Those of us in the "know" who truly love and respect Baja and it's people will continue to enjoy our paradise.


:bounce: I couldn't agree more!:bounce:


What year are you talking about- 1980? Nomads know the beauty of Baja has been under attack the past few decades- resorts that strip the beauty of the beach, golf courses only a millionaire can live near and play, coastal encroachment, unfinished condo towers and worse. Trust me- you don' t need to worry about greenhorns mucking things up worse than the Mexican government has allowed to happen.

The mortgage meltdowns was a turning point for Baja real estate. The days of second homes in Baja paid for with easy cash-out refi's are gone and not coming back. Even without the security problems Baja isn't financially attractive to retirees unless you live in trailer on rice, beans and tortillas. Don't worry about chasing future crowds away- it's all yours.

BajaGringo - 1-26-2011 at 09:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Don't worry about chasing future crowds away- it's all yours.


Promise???

:lol::lol::lol:

Woooosh - 1-26-2011 at 09:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Don't worry about chasing future crowds away- it's all yours.


Promise???

:lol::lol::lol:

Just you and your millions of abalone :) I promise.

4x4abc - 1-27-2011 at 07:58 AM

here are the most recent murder rates :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

see the Mexico subdivision close to the bottom of the page

mcfez - 1-27-2011 at 08:06 AM

You all here sound like a bunch of McFezzies arguing here :lol:

[Edited on 1-27-2011 by mcfez]

wilderone - 1-27-2011 at 09:11 AM

"And what if you took out the drug/gang murders in America?"

And what if you took out all the spousal/significant other murders?

What if you just took all murders perpetrated on a tourist?

And what if you took all murders of one country, without civil violence (genocide), excluded spouses, excluded drug deal-based deaths, excluded anyone murdered under 12 years of age, included all unexplained disappearances, happening on Tuesdays, appearing on Nancy Grace, between the ages of 22 and 45, from North America, within 15 miles of any city with a population of over 100,000?

Barbarosa - 1-27-2011 at 09:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
the chances of being murdered in the US is 3 times greater than being murdered in Central Europe. I guess that should give Europeans about as much concern in considering a visit to the US, as it does US residents about visiting Mexico, with 3 times the murder rate as the US. If I was a European, I might want to go to Spain instead.


What's a poor Spaniard to do?

bajaguy - 1-27-2011 at 09:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barbarosa

What's a poor Spaniard to do?





Drink??? :lol:

BajaGringo - 1-27-2011 at 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
"And what if you took out the drug/gang murders in America?"

And what if you took out all the spousal/significant other murders?

What if you just took all murders perpetrated on a tourist?

And what if you took all murders of one country, without civil violence (genocide), excluded spouses, excluded drug deal-based deaths, excluded anyone murdered under 12 years of age, included all unexplained disappearances, happening on Tuesdays, appearing on Nancy Grace, between the ages of 22 and 45, from North America, within 15 miles of any city with a population of over 100,000?


Yea, you got it - that´s the number I´m looking for!

:rolleyes:

Personally, I´m with Dave on this one...

wessongroup - 1-27-2011 at 11:01 AM

This report may have the number you're looking for.... it's from the CDC, who have indicated in another report that of all murders in the United States.. they fall into three categories: Passion, Mental health, and Drugs... respectively...

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr57/nvsr57_14.pdf

Barbarosa - 1-27-2011 at 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
of all murders in the United States.. they fall into three categories: Passion, Mental health, and Drugs... respectively...



Of all the people in the United States... they fall into two categories:
Those who divide people into categories and those who don't.

4x4abc - 1-27-2011 at 11:55 AM

very deep thoughts - I am impressed

Barbarosa - 1-27-2011 at 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 4x4abc
very deep thoughts - I am impressed


In the spirit of the thread.

Trut' be known, I wuz just tired of being a newbie.

Taxonomy or would that be categories

wessongroup - 1-27-2011 at 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barbarosa
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
of all murders in the United States.. they fall into three categories: Passion, Mental health, and Drugs... respectively...



Of all the people in the United States... they fall into two categories:
Those who divide people into categories and those who don't.


Wow... would really like to find those in the United States that do not identify ANYTHING by categories.... plus would have made taxonomy of vascular plants, among others, a bit difficult for Carl Linnaeus ... and everyone else .. hence the reliance on "categories"....

Found using "categories" very useful while identifying "plants", "animals" "chemicals" and a few other things..

Oh, thats right Congress.... and the President... they work it all by "darts"... oh, but then wouldn't that be a type of "category" also.. 3, 9, 12 et al...

Would be a lot more fun the other way, however systematic investigation and/or identification requires the development of categories in order for one to know where they are.... in a Global "sense"... or local... imho

Dave - 1-27-2011 at 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by soulpatch
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave

Personally, I could care less.


How much less?


I could care less if tourists travel to Mexico...Whatever the reason.

toneart - 1-27-2011 at 04:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barbarosa
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
of all murders in the United States.. they fall into three categories: Passion, Mental health, and Drugs... respectively...



Of all the people in the United States... they fall into two categories:
Those who divide people into categories and those who don't.


So...that would be at least three categories; more than one for "Those who divide people into categories" (plural) and "those who don't. (a category in itself).:light: ...and assuming they are fertile, well...the possible categories are infinite.

Now that is enough to evoke "passion, mental health, and drugs". That's today's murderers multiplied exponentially. So, is that one category, three or gazillians?

Oh Jeeze! I am falling into the category of Nomads with too much time on their hands. ;):lol::P

I'm outta here:!:

Barbarosa - 1-27-2011 at 04:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by toneart

So...that would be at least three categories; more than one for "Those who divide people into categories" (plural) and "those who don't. (a category in itself).:light: ...and assuming they are fertile, well...the possible categories are infinite.

Now that is enough to evoke "passion, mental health, and drugs". That's today's murderers multiplied exponentially. So, is that one category, three or gazillians?

Oh Jeeze! I am falling into the category of Nomads with too much time on their hands. ;):lol::P

I'm outta here:!:


Hey, not so fast. Get back over here a minute.

Can we accept that the population base remains finite. Big, really really big, but finite?

Then, can we really have infinite permutations with a finite object set?

(Did I mention that I'm really Jonesin' for a ride? (Did I mention that I'm about to head out on one? And not a moment too soon!))

Barbarosa

toneart - 1-27-2011 at 04:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barbarosa
Quote:
Originally posted by toneart

So...that would be at least three categories; more than one for "Those who divide people into categories" (plural) and "those who don't. (a category in itself).:light: ...and assuming they are fertile, well...the possible categories are infinite.

Now that is enough to evoke "passion, mental health, and drugs". That's today's murderers multiplied exponentially. So, is that one category, three or gazillians?

Oh Jeeze! I am falling into the category of Nomads with too much time on their hands. ;):lol::P

I'm outta here:!:


Hey, not so fast. Get back over here a minute.

Can we accept that the population base remains finite. Big, really really big, but finite?

Then, can we really have infinite permutations with a finite object set?

(Did I mention that I'm really Jonesin' for a ride? (Did I mention that I'm about to head out on one? And not a moment too soon!))

Barbarosa

NO!:no:

wessongroup - 1-27-2011 at 05:08 PM

All question on population dynamics should be sent to:

Jethro Bodine School of Cyphering and Gazuntas :):)

[Edited on 1-28-2011 by wessongroup]