BajaNomad

How Mexicans Perceive Americans in Baja?

Gypsy Jan - 3-30-2011 at 02:05 PM

This will probably start a flame war, but lizard lips, in my post about working through the inmigrado status, said that an official in his area had it in for him.

I do not know lizard lips personally, but, through his posts, I believe he is a pretty good guy.

But, we know local people in our area who refuse to work for an American married to a Mexicana.

It goes without saying that money is scarce, but they stay away.

Their name for him is "Senor Malo"

[Edited on 3-30-2011 by Gypsy Jan]

La Bamba Restaurant is Another Example

Gypsy Jan - 3-30-2011 at 02:20 PM

They closed down yesterday because they did not receive a liquor license from the City of Rosarito.

The owner, a retired tank commander in the U.S. Army, told us that they couldn't survive without a liquor license and that they confronted the city officials in Rosarito, calling them all corrupt after they were asked for $15,000 U.S. to facilitate the paperwork. (His throwaway comment was, "They didn't even ask for pesos.")

He said that they were told that they had caused the city officals to lose face.

motoged - 3-30-2011 at 02:23 PM

Hmmmmm.....I guess it is not too wise to pee in the cornflakes you plan on eating....:light:

Cypress - 3-30-2011 at 02:25 PM

I imagine they view them mostly as tourists with money to spend. The same way the locals in any vacation destination view tourists.

Yes, Dave

Gypsy Jan - 3-30-2011 at 02:27 PM

I have edited my post. :lol: :lol:

Wanna hear something even more incredible?

Dave - 3-30-2011 at 02:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
They closed down yesterday because they did not receive a liquor license from the City of Rosarito.

The owner, a retired tank commander in the U.S. Army, told us that they couldn't survive without a liquor license and that they confronted the city officials in Rosarito, calling them all corrupt after they were asked for $15,000 U.S. to facilitate the paperwork. (His throwaway comment was, "They didn't even ask for pesos.")

He said that they were told that they had caused the city officals to lose face.


When these folks bought La Bamba several years ago, the bar was there and the former owners were selling liquor. They were told a liquor license was in place.

Amazing.


:rolleyes:

DENNIS - 3-30-2011 at 02:55 PM

We will never know how they really see us. You can't ask. Their culture of graciousness will never allow a real answer.
First of all, they don't like us as a people. We have oppressed them just a bit too long. Stole their land too.

Secondly.....personal relationships will only partially forgive those misgivings and you'll be treated properly by your aquaintenances. You probably will never be their friend. You may think you are....but you're not.

Last, but not least, the government through time has taught them to see us as their enemy. We cause all of their woes.
It's always easier for them to blame us than themselves, who are the cause of most of the problems.

So....that's my take on the situation.

One more thing.....it's always been more important to me how I see myself. I couldn't care less how they, or anybody else, sees me.
They ain't nobody.

mtgoat666 - 3-30-2011 at 03:03 PM

All people are different. Some people come across as jerks, some are nice, some know how to smooze. Some people treat strangers differently than people they know. Your discussion of treatment of gringos by mexicans is pointless, because every situation is different.

But your Q is sure to start a flame war -- flame on you flamers!

mtgoat666 - 3-30-2011 at 03:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
They closed down yesterday because they did not receive a liquor license from the City of Rosarito.

The owner, a retired tank commander in the U.S. Army, told us that they couldn't survive without a liquor license and that they confronted the city officials in Rosarito, calling them all corrupt after they were asked for $15,000 U.S. to facilitate the paperwork. (His throwaway comment was, "They didn't even ask for pesos.")

He said that they were told that they had caused the city officals to lose face.


the fact that you mentioned he is retired tank commander seems to be irrelevant to the story. perhaps the relevancy is that he announces such to everyone?? (p.s. I have never met a tank commander - my only impression of one is George C Scott's portrayal of Patton)

krafty - 3-30-2011 at 03:14 PM

La Bamba got their liquor license and is indeed open for business-with a bit of help from his MX Friends......got some great deals too!

Hi mtgoat

Gypsy Jan - 3-30-2011 at 03:18 PM

So maybe I am irrelevant.

Bajatripper - 3-30-2011 at 03:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
This will probably start a flame war, but lizard lips, in my post about working through the inmigrado status, said that an official in his area had it in for him.

I do not know lizard lips personally, but, through his posts, I believe he is a pretty good guy.

But, we know local people in our area who refuse to work for an American married to a Mexicana.

It goes without saying that money is scarce, but they stay away.


[Edited on 3-30-2011 by Gypsy Jan]


Like anywhere else, it will depend on the person.

I have had to leave a (local) bar in Loreto because one guy had had a bad experience in the US, and, therefore, all Americans were bad in his eyes. While the bar owner supported me and was about to eject the guy, I knew where the guy was coming from so opted to leave myself since it was his bar.

And then, there are those who make their living off of Americans and will be your best friend--my stepfather attracted this type with uncanny accuracy, and worse, couldn't tell what they were all about.

But, overall, I think most Mexicans in Baja treat Americans in accordance to their behavior--an a-hole will be treated as such while polite people are always welcome.

As for those people who refuse to work for an American who's married to a Mexicana--it could be that who they are really refusing to work for is the Mexicana. Nothing like nouveau riche in their own country. Going from being poor and having nothing to suddenly being considered to be wealthy can cause some people to adopt an attitude of superiority with their countrymen--it seems quite common in places I've been.

lizard lips - 3-30-2011 at 04:15 PM

This is going to be a really good discussion and there will be many, many, different views and personal experiences that nomads will offer to explain their views. Because of my work it has brought me to every state in Mexico and I have returned to each many times. I have also worked in 90 different countries in the last 14 years so I will tell you from experience the way I am treated once people know I am an American, and proud of it.

First off, I treat everyone the way I want to be treated. I have to deal with police and governmental agencies, attorneys, and witnesses regarding kidnappings, murders, or anything else that has to deal with a life insurance investigation. I never kiss burro to get what I need and never pay mordida. All of my contacts with these people have been, for the most part, a very pleasant experience. Because I speak Spanish it opens doors. Mexican people will open up to you if you speak the language. There is mistrust initially and if you come across like a demanding fool you will be treated as such. If I have a honest discussion on what I need and am looking for I usually walk away with the information that I wanted. I always joke around and never get stressed out no matter how the person I am talking to comes off. If for some reason I am treated badly I just say thanks and go on my way and look for another door to open to get what I want.

I was thrown in Jail in a small town in Oaxaca for three hours for telling a judge that he was wrong. Big mistake and I failed the attitude test. He knew he was wrong but wanted to show me who he was. After I apologized to him he gave me everything I wanted. Ok, I kissed a little burro but had to in that case.

I use the same taxi drivers in Monterrey, Mexico City, Guadalajara and many of the smaller cities I go to only because I know they won't rip me off. For the most part taxi drivers are perfect examples of profiling people. I am at a loss in countries where I don't speak the language but in Mexico I know the games they play and they are experts at trying to get every peso you have in your pocket but that is for another thread. The drivers I have used for more than ten years call me at my home and wish me a merry Christmas and I get a birthday call as well. These guys are true friends and I treat them as such. I may need to use them all day long and tell them where I need to go and get a price set prior to heading out. If I think it may be a little to much we talk, get it straight then head out. I'll buy them lunch or sometimes we will go to their home for a meal when invited, which is often.

When Dennis said that the Mexican government has promoted a mistrust with Americans he is right on. My wife is Mexican and my son was born here in Ensenada. The teachers he has had have dealt with me on several occasions because the trash they have tried to teach my son about U.S. history and their take on what they think about Americans. What they teach now is much better but there will always be mistrust.

When my wife's family get together for a party my brother's in law call me P-nche gringo only as a joke. I in turn call them P-nche Mexicanos and several other choice words I have learned in the 24 years I have lived here. We all laugh and not once has there ever been an issue with me being who I am.

For the most part, everyone I come into contact with all over the world have all the dreams and fears I do but most important, they want and deserve respect.

Last June I had work in Haiti. Everything I said above does not apply to this country and I will write about my trip if anyone is interested.
I believe if you live in Mexico---Learn the language or at the very least, try to.

fishabductor - 3-30-2011 at 04:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
This will probably start a flame war, but lizard lips, in my post about working through the inmigrado status, said that an official in his area had it in for him.

I do not know lizard lips personally, but, through his posts, I believe he is a pretty good guy.

But, we know local people in our area who refuse to work for an American married to a Mexicana.

It goes without saying that money is scarce, but they stay away.

Their name for him is "Senor Malo"



I am married to a Mexicana, and live in baja full time. My experiences are exactly opposite as you describe.

That being said, I stay away from places were drinking takes place, unless it is at a wedding or party were my family/friends are present. Every fight, I have ever been in or around occured in the presence of alcohol, most of which occured in bars in Montana.

DENNIS - 3-30-2011 at 05:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajatripper
I have had to leave a (local) bar in Loreto because one guy had had a bad experience in the US



Shame on you.

Roberto - 3-30-2011 at 05:54 PM

Frankly it all depends on the relationships you have and cultivate. I mean if your encounters with Mexicanos are centered around the services they provide for you, what do you expect. Do you invite locals to your parties? Do you discuss the things you discuss with your Gringo friends? Do you live in isolated semi-gated (or gated) communities?

And then there's the matter of how Mexicans are treated on the other side. Many, if not most, Americans keep to themselves and have what amounts to a racist attitude toward Mexicans. They are there because it's cheap, or they can do what they can't on the other side.

It all changed for me when I started working in Tijuana 2-3 days a week with a team of Mexican software engineers.

DENNIS - 3-30-2011 at 06:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
And then there's the matter of how Mexicans are treated on the other side. Many, if not most, Americans keep to themselves and have what amounts to a racist attitude toward Mexicans.



Pure effing baloney. The cross border crap has nothing to do with a new relationship between two rational people. They stand in front of each other with no baggage.

Expats keep to themselves for their own reason.....they don't know how to communicate. It isn't a racist attitude.
It's dumbfounded confusion.

Roberto - 3-30-2011 at 06:12 PM

Right back atcha you old crank. Into your second box already?

The cross border crap has everything to do with it.

And oh yeah, how much Spanish do you speak?

But I won't be dragged into the dirt by your potty mouth. Don't know how to communicate? You better believe it. :lol::lol:

DENNIS - 3-30-2011 at 06:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
And oh yeah, how much Spanish do you speak?



Suficiente... y mas, cuando es necesesario. Quieres mas, pocho?
Digame. Su vida Mexicano es puro frauda. Un otro cabrón hombre sin pais.
Chupa que yo tengo in mi mano, cabron.

MitchMan - 3-30-2011 at 06:30 PM

Mexican people of Baja in a very certain way are like anyone anywhere else. As a foreign guest in Baja, if you are humble in your heart with the requisite respect for the people and the privilege of being allowed to be a guest, and your heart is pure, the Mexicans will treat you rather well. I have experience this in every country I have ever been in actually, except for France, Paris specifically.

My big objection to my experiences in Baja is to the government agency personnel and so called professionals (attornies, accountants, real estate agents, bankers, notarios) whom I have paid money to and rarily if ever gotten professional competence. These buttheads have always cost me wasted money. But, interpersonally with all acquaintences and neighbors, the people of Baja are better than most and unusually inclined to help you when you need it. More so than in the USA. People in the USA are trigger happy letigious by comparison rather than being predisposed to being voluntarily helpful.

If you want to really know what it is like to be consistantly mistreated and disrespected without cause, take a trip to Paris. By the end of my trip, I was so resentful and angry, I went out looking for altercations to get into.


[Edited on 3-31-2011 by MitchMan]

Roberto - 3-30-2011 at 06:34 PM

Dennis, you marooon. I am ITALIAN, not mexican. You are probably more of a pocho than I am. And what you have in your hand is the only place you're going to get any satisfaction for it.

We confuse most Mexicans...

Ken Cooke - 3-30-2011 at 06:36 PM

The Mrs. is from Barranquilla and I'm from Riverside. When they hear her speak Spanish, they think she's an American practicing the language.



Her Spanish is quite good. But she gets mistaken for an Americana wherever she goes which is always good for laughs.:lol:

MitchMan - 3-30-2011 at 06:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Suficiente... y mas, cuando es necesesario. Quieres mas, pocho?
Digame. Su vida Mexicano es puro frauda. Un otro cabrón hombre sin pais.
Chupa que yo tengo in mi mano, cabron.


Man, that was funny to read. My Spanish is not that good, but I was so pleased to understand every word above. Dennis, can I quote you? I want to be able to use it as soon as possible. Somebody said something about stepping on his own 'verga', I am going to incorporate that into it too.

No derogatory intent to you, Roberto, Italians are very cool people.

I don't know why, it just seems funnier in Spanish.

Ricardo - 3-30-2011 at 07:10 PM

Just My thoughts on This, What goes around comes around, I try to live by this saying and it seems to work. Treat people poorly and they will treat you the same. Treat people with respect and dignity and they will treat you the same. A good example would be Shari from BA She treats everyone with respect and I hope she gets ( I think she does) the same respect back. Color, race and nationality shouldn't matter at all.
Rick

DENNIS - 3-30-2011 at 07:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo
Color, race and nationality shouldn't matter at all.



They don't....except for people who are unsure of themselves.
I was....once upon a time.

DENNIS - 3-30-2011 at 07:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MitchMan
Dennis, can I quote you?



Feel reasonable.
PayPal link to follow. :lol:

Thanks.

Ricardo - 3-30-2011 at 07:20 PM

Dennis I don't know you but after reading many of your posts I'm thinking you are OK, I don't even know what color, race etc. you are, because it doesn't matter. Maybe we'll sip a brewsky together some day.
All the Best Rick

fishabductor - 3-30-2011 at 07:40 PM

It's all about the golden rule...period!

Ricardo - 3-30-2011 at 07:50 PM

I didn't know what the golden rule was so googled it , yep you are right

The Golden Rule for those that don't know it

fishabductor - 3-30-2011 at 07:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo
I didn't know what the golden rule was so googled it , yep you are right


Treat onto others as you would like to be treated yourself...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule

DENNIS - 3-30-2011 at 08:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo
Dennis I don't know you but after reading many of your posts I'm thinking you are OK, I don't even know what color, race etc. you are, because it doesn't matter. Maybe we'll sip a brewsky together some day.
All the Best Rick



Thanks Rick. I'll buy the first box.

Bajaboy - 3-30-2011 at 08:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
....Stole their land too.



Every time I hear that the US stole land from Mexico I ask about the land stolen from the Native Americans by the Mexicans. The US did not steal anything....they won a war.:?:

movinguy - 3-30-2011 at 09:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajatripper
As for those people who refuse to work for an American who's married to a Mexicana--it could be that who they are really refusing to work for is the Mexicana. Nothing like nouveau riche in their own country. Going from being poor and having nothing to suddenly being considered to be wealthy can cause some people to adopt an attitude of superiority with their countrymen--it seems quite common in places I've been.


The victim mentality plays well on both sides of the border. We actually have a lot in common - we both think our governments are run by payasos trying to take advantage of us. ;D

That being said, I would have to agree with Bajatripper that some wealthy Mexicans can be divas - mostly toward their own countrymen . . .

Woooosh - 3-30-2011 at 10:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishabductor
Quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo
I didn't know what the golden rule was so googled it , yep you are right


Treat onto others as you would like to be treated yourself...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule


or... "He who has the gold, rules." :saint:

irenemm - 3-30-2011 at 10:48 PM

I moved here 31 years ago and did not know Spanish and I am not Mexican. I have always been treated with much respect. I was on the first tourist comite in San Quintin. I cooked for 5 Governors of Baja. The first day I took my kids to school the Nuns kept asking for something. I knew a few words and would tell them my husband would be here in 2 weeks. He got here 2 and 1/2 months later. A true Mexican always late. By then everyone in town knew me. I was the gringa and everyone tried to help me. Now people say i am not American I am more Mexican then many from here. I have always felt if you came here you need to learn the language the same is if you go over there you need to learn the language.
I have a sailor mouth for bad words in Spanish. It has never offened anyone that I know of.
P-nche is proper for Kitchen helper. But in slang it is something else.
You get treated the way you want to be treated. If you treat someone with respect they will respect you. If not you get what you deserve.

People Who Need Other People

MrBillM - 3-30-2011 at 10:49 PM

Are the Dumbest People in the World.

I think Loony Barbra said that.

Or, something close.

All of this B.S. about what a "People" think is just that. The opinions run the gamut depending on each person's experiences and personal attitudes.

Just like with the Rednecks and others, it's usually the "Disadvantaged" Classes that hold the grudges figuring that, somehow, the fact that their life is Scheisse is because some other group oppressed them and not the fact that they're losers.

Woooosh - 3-30-2011 at 11:27 PM

I am seen as part of a large Mexican family down here. At first my Mexican family constantly interfered with me negotiating directly with anyone offering services- like plumbers, electricians and the dreaded firewood guy. They say they'll get a better price and better service if they are present when we work out the deal. I don't know if they are right or not, but I suspect they are. That tells me my family thought other Mexicans would take advantage of me as a "gringo" (I do hate that word) if not for their interference. In fairness, my family is mostly from the Mexico mainland (Torreon) and they aren't very fond of Tijuanernos- which could be part of the problem too. I know my Vet charges me more than Mexicans because he thinks I can afford it. I know he donates his services when people can't afford to pay- so I roll my eyes and pay. It's a little bit of a Robin Hood thing- but I am a willing participant. The daily interactions I have with Mexicans arounf town are very pleasant actually- whether it's a Taco stand or a cashier at Home Depot. I have made it a mission to reach out to Mexican drivers by waving thank-you when they actually stop and alternate at a stop sign. I think at times I may prejudge Mexicans more harshly than they do me- especially when driving through TJ. lol

wilderone - 3-31-2011 at 08:32 AM

"Last June I had work in Haiti. Everything I said above does not apply to this country and I will write about my trip if anyone is interested."

I'd like to hear about that. Write in "Non Baja trips"

ELINVESTIG8R - 3-31-2011 at 09:04 AM

I have been well received and thought of while in Mexico by everyone I have encountered so far. I think that you get what you give. Of course there will be exceptions to that rule.

BajaGringo - 3-31-2011 at 09:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R
I have been well received and thought of while in Mexico by everyone I have encountered so far. I think that you get what you give. Of course there will be exceptions to that rule.


That is true anywhere you go on this planet. Each country/culture has its own flavors, colors and quirks but deep down inside, people are people wherever you go.

Making the effort to learn to read and write the local language fluently goes a long ways to change perceptions. Human nature generally mistrusts when one doesn't understand/comprehend. Good communication breaks down those walls and I have lived that truth while living and working on different continents throughout my life.

Do some locals down here ask for the "Gringo Rate"when pricing their wares/services? Sure.

Do some folks NOB think they can (and do) pay less to Mexicans up there offering their services? Sure.

The human species is far from perfect, no matter what color the skin or language they speak.

Flame on...

Bajatripper - 3-31-2011 at 03:23 PM

Quote:


Pure effing baloney. The cross border crap has nothing to do with a new relationship between two rational people. They stand in front of each other with no baggage.


While I agreed with many of your initial observations on this thread, I couldn't disagree with you more on this point, Dennis. What happens on the other side of the border most definitely comes back to bite us in the rear here, as my Loreto story was meant to demonstrate.

I'm with the long-winded fellow who's traveled to Mars and back.

I don't know how fluent you are in Spanish, and that can make a big difference in detecting the source of a person's irritations. In my case, the guy made it crystal-clear that he was holding me personally accountable for the mistreatment he and every other Mexican has ever suffered on the other side of the fence.

It's sure good to know that you don't care what anyone thinks about your opinions, so I know this small criticism won't set you off, right? (or am I in line for another mauling?):lol:

desertcpl - 3-31-2011 at 03:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
"Last June I had work in Haiti. Everything I said above does not apply to this country and I will write about my trip if anyone is interested."

I'd like to hear about that. Write in "Non Baja trips"



Ditto,,

You Gotta Be Kidding Me

Bajahowodd - 3-31-2011 at 04:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
....Stole their land too.



Every time I hear that the US stole land from Mexico I ask about the land stolen from the Native Americans by the Mexicans. The US did not steal anything....they won a war.:?:


Just what revisionist history source are you quoting?

You want to assert that the (European) Mexicans stole from indigenous people, fine. Just what did Americans do NOB? Just start with the Cherokee nation and move on from there.

We won a war fair and square? In what sense? We just decided we need more territory (manifest destiny, if you will), and figured we could kick the Mexicans out.

Geez.

I have to say, however, that to say that what we did so long ago is still fueling resentment in Mexico is something of a stretch.

DENNIS - 3-31-2011 at 04:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I have to say, however, that to say that what we did so long ago is still fueling resentment in Mexico is something of a stretch.


The government needs scapegoats. That, of course, is us. Better to put all blame for failure across the border than to fix things. To forgive and forget would serve no useful purpose.

BajaGringo - 3-31-2011 at 05:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I have to say, however, that to say that what we did so long ago is still fueling resentment in Mexico is something of a stretch.


The government needs scapegoats. That, of course, is us. Better to put all blame for failure across the border than to fix things. To forgive and forget would serve no useful purpose.


That is a political strategy I observed frequently in many third world nations where I have lived. People use whatever tools they have available and politicians are the best at the blame game...

burnrope - 3-31-2011 at 05:18 PM

Mister With Out Papers,
Maroon-To be abandoned on an island or a deeply colored red.
marooon-What I become with too much Tequila.

Roberto - 3-31-2011 at 06:55 PM

Also,

Maroon - the word the board software changes the second word to.

Hey...It works!

Dave - 3-31-2011 at 07:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
Also,

Maroon - the word the board software changes the second word to.


Why did the little marooon take the TV into the bathroom?

He wanted to see Howdy Doody.

fishabductor - 3-31-2011 at 07:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Just what did Americans do NOB?


In my neck of the woods WA state, at least where I grew up, but no longer live. While we won the war, we gave the indians more rights than the rest of the population have.

The indians can fish/crab/hunt year round, w/o limits.
They can hunt whales with 50cal rifles
They can have casinos
They don't have to pay taxes
They can place nets across rivers??????
and they don't have to abide by the same laws...

I am all for it if the indians need to do this for spiritual reasons and traditions...BUT that is not the case. To do this they would need to hunt/fish/whale hunt by traditional means...not by using 50 cal rifles, speedboats, nets that are 60' deep and invisible, gambling should be a pile of rocks/sticks...and last but not least they would not being doing this for profit.

Don't get me wrong, some of my closest friends are coastal indians and I am far from a racist. But in my book everyone who lives in the same country should have to follow the same rules.

While I am no history buff, this is the only conquered people I know of that have more rights than the conquerers.

We took Mexico's land, however we make them follow the same rules as the rest of us....why don't we make everyone follow the same rules?


[Edited on 4-1-2011 by fishabductor]

krafty - 3-31-2011 at 08:33 PM

boy, you will probably open a can of whoop ass with that question:spingrin:

Bajaboy - 3-31-2011 at 08:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
....Stole their land too.



Every time I hear that the US stole land from Mexico I ask about the land stolen from the Native Americans by the Mexicans. The US did not steal anything....they won a war.:?:


Just what revisionist history source are you quoting?

You want to assert that the (European) Mexicans stole from indigenous people, fine. Just what did Americans do NOB? Just start with the Cherokee nation and move on from there.

We won a war fair and square? In what sense? We just decided we need more territory (manifest destiny, if you will), and figured we could kick the Mexicans out.

Geez.

I have to say, however, that to say that what we did so long ago is still fueling resentment in Mexico is something of a stretch.


Um, most wars seem to be about land, resources, and/or religion. Sure, Spain wanted more resources and to spread Christianity...so did the US of A....no arguments there. But to say that the US stole land from Mexico is pure BS.

[Edited on 4-1-2011 by Bajaboy]

jenny.navarrette - 3-31-2011 at 10:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
We won a war fair and square? In what sense? We just decided we need more territory (manifest destiny, if you will), and figured we could kick the Mexicans out.


Let me correct your understanding of the history of the Mexican-American War for you, and the next 500 people here who are going to mindlessly repeat that faded story.

Mexico had only claimed the territory ceded to the US for 25 years, since winning its independence from Spain in 1821.

Mexican President Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna had agreed to the Rio Grande as the border between Texas and Mexico in the Treaties of Velasco on May 14, 1836. The Mexican Congress maintained Santa Anna had no authority to enter into such a treaty. Mexico officially rejected it as invalid and continued to assert a claim over Texas.

Before the outbreak of the Mexican-American War, on 10 November 1845, President James K. Polk, had sent his envoy, John Slidell, to Mexico to offer Mexico around $45 million for the territories of Nuevo México and Alta California. The Mexican government dismissed Slidell, refusing to even meet with him.

In April, 1846, 2,000 Mexican soldiers under the command of Colonel Anastasio Torrejón, crossed the Rio Grande in violation of the Treaties of Velasco and camped near Brownsville, Texas. A company of US soldiers on patrol on the Texas side of the Rio Grande were attacked by the Mexican troops and was forced to surrender after several hours of resisting. 16 US soldiers were killed and 5 wounded.

On May 13, 1846, Congress declared war on Mexico. Mexico reciprocated and declared war on the US.

At the conclusion of the war, under the Treaty of Hidalgo, the US paid Mexico $15 million for the land ceded and assumed another $3.25 milion of debts Mexico owed to Americans. The remainder of New Mexico and Arizona were peacefully purchased under the Gadsden Purchase, which was carried out in 1853 and the US paid Mexico $10 million. So that land was paid for, even after the US had to prosecute a 2-year war with Mexico, and this was done so even after Mexico abrogated a treaty and attacked a US force on Texas territory.

Do you still think the US stole the land?

David K - 4-1-2011 at 08:05 AM

Thank you!

Money still flows south from these former Mexican lands, as well.

durrelllrobert - 4-1-2011 at 10:49 AM

How Mexicans Perceive Americans in Baja?
How Canadians preceive Americans in Canada?
How Americans preceive Canadians everywhere?
How American Indians preceive the white man?
How the whiteman preceives native Americanson the reservation?
...ad infinitum :?:

Cypress - 4-1-2011 at 10:58 AM

The truth be known they perceive 'em just like anybody else. :D The same way you and I perceive 'em. Think of it? How many of 'em would you want to be with onboard a small boat all day ?:biggrin: The small boat factor!:light:

Bajatripper - 4-1-2011 at 01:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
And oh yeah, how much Spanish do you speak?



Suficiente... y mas, cuando es necesesario. Quieres mas, pocho?
Digame. Su vida Mexicano es puro frauda. Un otro cabrón hombre sin pais.
Chupa que yo tengo in mi mano, cabron.


Is this your offer of proof of your command of Spanish? I think it took me all of two weeks to master that much.

But more importantly, is that how you really want to be seen? I thought you were classier.:?:

And you CLAIM that you don't care what anyone else thinks of your opinions. I would say this juvenile outburst says all the contrary. Not befitting a man of your obvious education.

monoloco - 4-1-2011 at 01:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jenny.navarrette
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
We won a war fair and square? In what sense? We just decided we need more territory (manifest destiny, if you will), and figured we could kick the Mexicans out.


Let me correct your understanding of the history of the Mexican-American War for you, and the next 500 people here who are going to mindlessly repeat that faded story.

Mexico had only claimed the territory ceded to the US for 25 years, since winning its independence from Spain in 1821.

Mexican President Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna had agreed to the Rio Grande as the border between Texas and Mexico in the Treaties of Velasco on May 14, 1836. The Mexican Congress maintained Santa Anna had no authority to enter into such a treaty. Mexico officially rejected it as invalid and continued to assert a claim over Texas.

Before the outbreak of the Mexican-American War, on 10 November 1845, President James K. Polk, had sent his envoy, John Slidell, to Mexico to offer Mexico around $45 million for the territories of Nuevo México and Alta California. The Mexican government dismissed Slidell, refusing to even meet with him.

In April, 1846, 2,000 Mexican soldiers under the command of Colonel Anastasio Torrejón, crossed the Rio Grande in violation of the Treaties of Velasco and camped near Brownsville, Texas. A company of US soldiers on patrol on the Texas side of the Rio Grande were attacked by the Mexican troops and was forced to surrender after several hours of resisting. 16 US soldiers were killed and 5 wounded.

On May 13, 1846, Congress declared war on Mexico. Mexico reciprocated and declared war on the US.

At the conclusion of the war, under the Treaty of Hidalgo, the US paid Mexico $15 million for the land ceded and assumed another $3.25 milion of debts Mexico owed to Americans. The remainder of New Mexico and Arizona were peacefully purchased under the Gadsden Purchase, which was carried out in 1853 and the US paid Mexico $10 million. So that land was paid for, even after the US had to prosecute a 2-year war with Mexico, and this was done so even after Mexico abrogated a treaty and attacked a US force on Texas territory.

Do you still think the US stole the land?
The traditional border between Texas and Mexico had been the Nueces River about 150 miles to the north of the Rio Grande and both Mexico and the United States had recognized that as the border. Some historians like Howard Zinn consider that ordering troops into territory inhabited my Mexicans to be a clear provocation by Polk.
Colonel Ethan Allen Hitchc-ck, commander of the 3rd Infantry Regiment under General Taylor wrote in his diary at the time:"I have said from the first that the United States are the aggressors....We have not one particle of right to be here...It looks as if the government sent a small force on purpose to bring a war, so as to have a pretext for taking California and as much of this country as it chooses, for, whatever becomes of this army, there is no doubt of a war between the United States and Mexico....My heart is not in this business...but, as a military man, I am bound to execute orders." In fact at the time there was a lot of opposition in the US to the war with Mexico. It really is fascinating history, I highly recommend Zinn's account in the "People's History of the United States. BTW, the reason that Mexico immediately repudiated the Treaty of Velasco was that Santa Ana was being held prisoner when he signed it, in fact is was never considered a valid treaty by anyone until Polk invoked it.

[Edited on 4-1-2011 by monoloco]

JESSE - 4-1-2011 at 01:35 PM

It all depends on the person. I know many americans who are accepted into Mexican society as if they where born and raised here and are never treated as foreigners. Many are some of my best friends. On the other hand, theres others that never blend in, and they don't want to. Thats fine, but investing some time and effort into being a part of the local community has its benefits.

Bajatripper - 4-1-2011 at 01:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
....Stole their land too.



Every time I hear that the US stole land from Mexico I ask about the land stolen from the Native Americans by the Mexicans. The US did not steal anything....they won a war.:?:


Boy, Bajaboy, you certainly have a warped, biased understanding of history. Where do you get your information?

Bajatripper - 4-1-2011 at 01:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
At first my Mexican family constantly interfered with me negotiating directly with anyone offering services- like plumbers, electricians and the dreaded firewood guy. They say they'll get a better price and better service if they are present when we work out the deal. I don't know if they are right or not, but I suspect they are. That tells me my family thought other Mexicans would take advantage of me as a "gringo" (I do hate that word) if not for their interference.

I know my Vet charges me more than Mexicans because he thinks I can afford it. I know he donates his services when people can't afford to pay- so I roll my eyes and pay. It's a little bit of a Robin Hood thing- but I am a willing participant.


I commend you on both your observations and your interpretations, wooosh. I think you are spot on wih both.

While I'm by no means rich by US standards (enlisted military pensions don't pay much), I know I have more than the average Mexican living in La Paz and I don't mind subsidizing the less fortunate. I'm a socialist by nature.

DENNIS - 4-1-2011 at 03:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajatripper
I'm a socialist by nature.



Shame on you.

Bajatripper - 4-2-2011 at 12:37 PM

Actually, I believe in many of the aspects of socialism and am proud of it.
When it comes to things such as health care and education, I think society is way further ahead if they are provided "free" of charge.

And if you support the present economic system in place in the US, you, too, approve of socialism. But not your run-of-the-mill socialism that benefits all of society, but rather, one targetted for the benefit of the wealthiest in our nation--who are allowed to practice the principles of capitalism at their convenience but then switch to socialism when it comes time to "share" the loses from their economic gambles.

But you are smart enough to know that this argument has no end. I just wanted you to know I have no shame when it comes to such things. But I could call it "Regulated Capitalism" if it would make it easier to swallow.

monoloco - 4-2-2011 at 02:59 PM

Bajatripper, you might appreciate this:http://www.truth-out.org/the-collapse-globalization68839

Cypress - 4-2-2011 at 03:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajatripper
Actually, I believe in many of the aspects of socialism and am proud of it.
"Regulated Capitalism" if it would make it easier to swallow.

mtgoat666 - 4-2-2011 at 04:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajatripper
I'm a socialist by nature.


Shame on you.


denny:
what socialist programs pay your pension?
i won't listen to your criticism of socialism or social programs until you get off the dole.

DENNIS - 4-2-2011 at 04:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
denny:
what socialist programs pay your pension?
i won't listen to your criticism of socialism or social programs until you get off the dole.


Dole???? That would be something I don't deserve. I earned the union pension and was forced to pay into Soc Sec. I had no choice.
The VA Disability? Now, Goat. You really don't want to have a discussion about what I've traded in comfortable sanity for a few bucks. You really don't.
Nor do I.

grizzlyfsh95 - 4-2-2011 at 04:13 PM

While I'm by no means rich by US standards (enlisted military pensions don't pay much), I know I have more than the average Mexican living in La Paz and I don't mind subsidizing the less fortunate. I'm a socialist by nature
You did 20 years of a "not much to do" job, are double dipping from the money collected from those who actually paid taxes, from a country that provided you an opportunity to actually excell (which you chose not to do)...and you are "proud to be a Socialist"? Who's money do you think pays for all of the "FREE" stuff you want? Who do you think pays you now? Wanker

mulegemichael - 4-2-2011 at 04:36 PM

we're not here cause it's cheap...we're here cause we love the culture; the pace,the interaction,the extended families, the resourcefullness of it's residents, the response one gets from a wave or a smile in passing....we engage folks because we like folks...i think no matter WHERE one is, he'll be recieved on HOW he is...applies to baja...applies to anywhere

DENNIS - 4-2-2011 at 04:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mulegemichael
we're not here cause it's cheap...


True story. I often hear the question, "How do the Mexican people afford to live in their own country."
Well...they have an advantage, such as we have as well, when living here. We don't have to deal with a mortgage. It makes a world of difference in money management.
None the less, "Mexico on five bucks a day" is ancient history.


I'm not sure if that has anything to do with what we're talking about here, but ....uhh.... what was I saying?



.

[Edited on 4-3-2011 by DENNIS]

Bajatripper - 4-2-2011 at 05:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by grizzlyfsh95
You did 20 years of a "not much to do" job, are double dipping from the money collected from those who actually paid taxes, from a country that provided you an opportunity to actually excell (which you chose not to do)...and you are "proud to be a Socialist"? Who's money do you think pays for all of the "FREE" stuff you want? Who do you think pays you now? Wanker


Ahhh, yes, I've been waiting for you. Given your propensity to shoot off your mouth without knowing any real facts about me--other than I'm a free-loading military vet (who was sent to the first Persian Gulf War to keep the oil flowing so that people like yourself could make "good use" of a system financed by the efforts of people like me and turn it into a personal gold mine--why bother?

You are probably another one of those "self-made" millionaires. Isn't Capitalism grand? But, for a real challenge, why don't you go to some place like the Philippines, penniless, and show how you can prosper by your own resources in any system. Now that, my man, would impress me.

PS
FYI military members pay taxes too.

[Edited on 4-3-2011 by Bajatripper]

Bajatripper - 4-2-2011 at 06:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mulegemichael
we're not here cause it's cheap...we're here cause we love the culture; the pace,the interaction,the extended families, the resourcefullness of it's residents, the response one gets from a wave or a smile in passing....we engage folks because we like folks...i think no matter WHERE one is, he'll be recieved on HOW he is...applies to baja...applies to anywhere


You are right, in describing the attitudes of some of the people who have relocated to Mexico. But, as much as I wish it weren't true, other expats are here precisely because it's cheap and, saddly, they don't give a damn about the culture or people and wouldn't dream of interacting with the locals--unless it was to give them instructions on how to perform the tasks they were hired to perform.

Bajatripper - 4-2-2011 at 06:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by mulegemichael
we're not here cause it's cheap...


Well...they have an advantage, such as we have as well, when living here. We don't have to deal with a mortgage. It makes a world of difference in money management.
[Edited on 4-3-2011 by DENNIS]


Dennis, be patient with me. I know I've already used up a year's worth of challenges, but I've got to add my two cents here.

Mexicans USE to not have mortgages and the associated payments that go with them, but that is no longer the case.

My wife, who is self-employed, bought a house using a loan that started out at 2,800 pesos a month. By the fifth year, the monthly payments had increased to 3,900. Every year, on the anniverary of her purchase of the house, she could count on her payments going up.

The funniest thing about it is that, after five years of keeping current on her payments, she owed more than the original loan amount. I asked them to explain how that was possible and never did get an answer beyond the equivalent of "because that's how it works." Furthermore, in the two months it took me to gather the funds to pay off the debt, the total of the amount owed increased by about 2,000 pesos.

In La Paz, the places that are called "colonias" were usually built as you say, people first buying the land and then building on it as they got the money to do so. But, in more recent times, we've been innundated by "fraccionamientos," which are usually composed of little cookie-cutter houses located on really small lots. These houses are usually financed through some national (or international) finacial institution. A big difference between here and the US is; here, if you work for a major enterprise or the government you qualify for "prestaciones," under the law which, in this case, means that you get a lot of help paying the mortgage. So the only ones who feel the real weight of these mortgages are people who are self-employed since they get no assistance in making the payments.

[Edited on 4-3-2011 by Bajatripper]

DENNIS - 4-2-2011 at 06:59 PM

That's all true and accurate, Steve, although large scale financing still isn't available due to the extremely high interest rates. INFONAVIT housing [government built and sold to low income clients] has long been available. I've seen a few of these developments, but never one that didn't turn into a ghetto. Zero pride of ownership.
Point was, when Mexicans buy a house in the private sector, they reach in their pocket and buy it. Lots of in-family transactions taking place.

Sounds as though your wife got tangled up in "The New Credit Market." It's out there and largely unregulated, but word travels fast.

The absense of bank credit is one of the main reasons the Casas de Cambio exist. They make short term, secured loans at usurious rates.

Bajatripper - 4-2-2011 at 08:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
That's all true and accurate, Steve, although large scale financing still isn't available due to the extremely high interest rates. INFONAVIT housing [government built and sold to low income clients] has long been available. I've seen a few of these developments, but never one that didn't turn into a ghetto. Zero pride of ownership.
Point was, when Mexicans buy a house in the private sector, they reach in their pocket and buy it. Lots of in-family transactions taking place.

Sounds as though your wife got tangled up in "The New Credit Market." It's out there and largely unregulated, but word travels fast.

The absense of bank credit is one of the main reasons the Casas de Cambio exist. They make short term, secured loans at usurious rates.


And I thank you for your support (and amplifying remarks).

A couple of more observations on the difference between a colonia and a fraccionamiento in La Paz:

colonias were usually established in what were the outskirts of town and started with dirt streets, no sidewalks and probably no water, sewage and lights in the early years. Lots had to be cleared, but were usually generous in size and relatively cheap. Houses often started off being made of plywood or even cardboard before being replaced, one room at a time, with a permanent structure (in my neighborhood, we still have a few old wooden houses that date back 60 or more years. These will be replaced by expensive houses in the near future as the kids sell off and relocate elsewhere).

Fraccionamientos, on the other hand, are built already hooked up to electricity, water and drains. Sidewalks and streets are already in place. BUT boy, are those streets and sidewalks narrow and the lots small. And most are sold with a mortgage--and, in Mexico, interest rates don't seem to be regulated. (I remember a few years ago Soriana advertizing cash loans with interest rates of 141 % annually. Try getting out from under one of those loans.)