BajaNomad - Recreational Fishing Takes Big Bite of Ocean Catch

Recreational Fishing Takes Big Bite of Ocean Catch

69 - 8-28-2004 at 05:47 AM

http://www.seaweb.org/whatis/8.26.04.release.html

Study in Science Reveals Recreational Fishing Takes Big Bite of Ocean Catch
U.S. saltwater recreational fishing catch rivals commercial fisheries for many depleted fish stocks including red snapper, black seabass, and lingcod

Taking a hard look at the common belief that recreational fishing accounts for only 2-3% of total landings in the U.S., a new study published in the journal Science (August 26th) reveals that recreational catches account for nearly a quarter of the total take of over fished populations, including many of the most economically valuable species such as red snapper, red drum, lingcod, and bocaccio.

For specific depleted populations in the U.S.?particularly the large charismatic fishes that people care about most?recreational landings outstrip commercial landings. This is true for red snapper (59% recreational) and gag (56%) in the Gulf of Mexico, red drum in the South Atlantic (93%), and bocaccio on the Pacific coast (87%), among others.

?The conventional wisdom is that recreational fishing is a small proportion of the total take, so it is largely overlooked,? says lead author Felicia Coleman of Florida State University. ?But if you remove the fish caught and used for fish sticks and fishmeal (pollock and menhaden) ? two strictly commercially caught species that account for over half of all U.S. landings - the recreational take rises to 10% nationally. And if you focus in on the populations identified by the Federal government as species of concern, it rises to 23%.?

The study is the first comprehensive analysis of the impact of recreational saltwater fishing in the U.S. Using all available federal and state data, the authors formally compare commercial and recreational landings for the past 22 years - first for all federally managed fish, and then for species of concern (species officially classified by the National Marine Fisheries Service as ?over-fished? or ?experiencing over-fishing?) both nationally and regionally. The Pew Charitable Trusts, one of the U.S.'s largest philanthropies, sponsored the study. Pew has sponsored major research on fisheries, including a number of widely reported recent studies on the deterioration of the marine environment.

At the regional level, recreational catches for these species of concern made up 64% of landings in the Gulf of Mexico (west coast of Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas), 38% in the South Atlantic (North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and the east coast of Florida), 59% along the Pacific Coast (California, Oregon and Washington), and 12% in the Northeast (Maine, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia) in 2002.

?With over ten million saltwater recreational anglers in the U.S., and recreational fishing activity growing as much as 20% in the last 10 years, their aggregate impact is far from benign,? says co-author Will Figueira of Duke University, currently at the University of Technology Sydney in Australia. ?Recreational anglers are operating below the radar screen of management. While the individual may take relatively few fish, we show that a few fish per person times millions of fishermen can have an enormous impact.?

?The large impacts of recreational fisheries surprised us, and they may startle many people, including fishermen, concerned about the health of our oceans. But if anything, our results likely underestimate the true impact of recreational fishing because we did not include fish that are discarded at sea or die from the effects of catch-and-release fishing,? says co-author Larry Crowder of Duke University.

There is a long held belief that the individual catches of recreational fishermen could never take a significant bite out of the ocean?s bounty. Most people picture recreational fishing as a Norman Rockwell image of father and son in a dinghy, each with a single hook and line. But many recreational fishermen today are equipped with sonar devices and global positioning systems to find fish, and powerful, far-ranging boats to travel far offshore ? technologies that make them every bit as effective as their commercial counterparts.

?Recreational fishing in the ocean has lost much of its art,? says Coleman. ?Someone with absolutely no fishing ability can go out on a charter boat and bring in a remarkable catch ? not because they know the environment, but because they rely on the professional, expert fishing knowledge of the captain and crew.?

Recreational fishing targets large, top-level predatory fish in the ocean. Removal of these fish can create dramatic changes in ocean food webs and cause cascading effects that alter the overall productivity and health of marine ecosystems. In addition, some fish populations have dropped to such low numbers that they have been considered for placement on the threatened and endangered species lists, including bocaccio (a rockfish) on the Pacific coast which is primarily caught in recreational fisheries (87%), and Goliath grouper which is currently protected from harvest in the southeastern U.S., but is still caught by catch and release.

While the cumulative impact of commercial fishers is constrained by limits on who, where, when and how much fish they can catch, there are no controls on the aggregate impact of recreational fishers. Current management of saltwater recreational fisheries focuses primarily on the individual fisherman ? setting limits on the number and size of fish one can bring in ? without restricting the number of people allowed to fish. Approximately 40% of coastal states do not even require salt-water recreational fishing licenses. No states require a license for people younger than 16, and few require it for anyone fishing from shore.

?Size limits and bag limits are well intentioned, but lead to discarding of fish that are likely dead or dying. Unlike hunting on land, where hunters are licensed and the total take is controlled or managed by license lotteries, similar controls for saltwater recreational anglers simply do not exist,? says Crowder.

Limiting fishing to catch and release may not solve the problem either. At least 20% of released fish end up dying, according to NMFS stock assessments for many species. For deep water species, this number is much higher. In addition, impressively large species like goliath grouper may well survive a catch-and-release encounter, but face repeated stress from successive catches. ?Because they tend to move very little outside of the spawning season, an individual is easy to find and a single fish can be targeted repeatedly. A goliath grouper near one of my study sites had 20 hooks in its mouth,? says Coleman. ?Bringing up a 400 pound fish onto your boat creates a marvelous photo opportunity, but it undoubtedly causes enormous physiological stress on the fish. And catching it is about as exciting as pulling up a Volkswagen.?

?In some ways, recreational fishing is where commercial fishing was 20 years ago with very weak controls and rapidly increasing numbers of fishermen,? says Federal Ocean Commissioner Andrew Rosenberg, of the University of New Hampshire and former Deputy Director of NMFS. ?The challenge is to come up with new ways to balance the increase in the number of people fishing with the need to reduce the number of fish caught and killed. The stocks can't sustain the increasing pressure and the only way to ensure we will have fish in the future is to leave more in the water now."

?This study is a rigorous compilation and analysis of data about recreational fishing that is long overdue and much needed,? says Pew Ocean Commissioner and marine ecologist Jane Lubchenco of Oregon State University. ?The availability of a credible analysis of such a controversial topic will greatly assist decision-making. Policy makers and fishery managers should now be able to move beyond assertions and begin to address the issues.?

Many recreational fishers have a strong conservation ethic and the good news is that, with the help of strong management measures, depleted stocks can be rebuilt. ?Everyone has to be part of the solution. There?s little use in commercial and recreational fishers pointing fingers at each other,? says author and ardent recreational fisherman Carl Safina, president of the Blue Ocean Institute. ?Commercial fishing is not all bad and recreational fishing is not all good. A fish doesn?t care if you are a commercial or recreational fisherman. It only cares if it is surrounded by water -or on ice.?

?Recreational fishing is important to many people,? says Coleman. ?For some it?s a way to commune with nature, for others it fulfills a deep desire to hunt. But if folks want to continue recreational fishing, we all need to support management of both commercial and recreational fisheries that will allow fish populations to recover and protect the structure and function of marine systems.?

Like I was saying gentlemen!

jrbaja - 8-28-2004 at 08:14 AM

and what did I hear back ? "It's not us"?
hahahahahahaha Rightyoh ! :lol:

Germanicus - 8-28-2004 at 08:57 AM

well, I learned that the Indians were much smarter then many people believe.
When an Indian took some firestones from the earth making a speer head, he put one head back under the soil. (that's why we can still find them today-sometimes)
And the old Indian saying is: "If I want something from the earth in the future, I got to give the earth something back."

And that's the same with the fish, I believe.
You got to give those fish back to the sea you can not eat.

I am a strong supporter of strict limitations for sportshiermen.
BUT: The commercial fishing is by far the more dangerous fact.
I just red an article in U.S. News:
Commercial fishing is destroying the seafloor in those depth, we haven't even explored.
It was said that we do not even know our planet in those depth, but we are already destroying it with miles deep fishing attempts.
The commercial fishing industries is fishing in depth of the oceans which we can not reach yet because we do not have the technology to explore those parts of the oceans.

Or, if I am looking at my local grocery store and the fish department.
MAN! they do have a selection of everything. Divisions of sportfishermen can not catch that amount in a lifetime what the store is selling in a single day.
And that's only one store in the U.S.

So I believe that such a study is well colored depending on who ordered it and pays for.

Neverheless a strict limitation for the daily catch of a sportsfisherman is very good start to " give the earth something back, that the earth can give you something in the future "
Germanicus

Except for the fact

jrbaja - 8-28-2004 at 09:43 AM

that you have not seen the Sea of Cortez yet.
What you are trying to say would make sense, if it weren't for the numbers of these pleasure fishermen who fish the Sea.
Every year there are more and more people and boats in every sheltered (and even unsheltered) harbor/ cove/ marina up and down both sides of the peninsula.
Here's an example.
Puerto Salina has a (new) marina. I guess about 6 or 7 years old. It is designed wrong and constantly needs to be dredged. There is no access when there are big waves to get in or out.
Two of my friends have drowned there and it receives nothing but bad publicity.
When it first opened, there was one boat. Then a couple years later, another.
Within the last two years, there have been about 15 or 20 more boats that are now docked there.
And this marina has a bad reputation in the boating world.
The ones on the Sea of Cortez side are generally perfect except during hurricanes and most people spend their time out on the water fishing the rest of the year.

Now, I am sure that commercial fishing is responsible for the majority of depletion. But to deny that the huge amounts of sport fisherman don't have an effect is down right silly.
I bet for every commercial boat, there are 500 pleasure boats doing the same thing. It all has an effect!
I think that to point fingers and blame someone else is very gringo like.
And until we can all learn to accept responsibility and try and work together to solve these problems, things will just continue to get worse!

And, I can't wait to get down there and go fishing with my pangero buddies. :lol:

Cardon Man - 8-28-2004 at 11:30 AM

There is no doubt sportfishermen must have some impact on fish populations world wide and in turn should take every measure to fish responsibly. However, the scale of destruction by commercial fishermen is far and away a greater threat to all fish species. A longliner can set 2500 hooks a day. That's just one boat. Imagine the many tens of millions of hooks set around the world each year. Every baited sportfishing hook in the world would not even come to a fraction of those numbers. And that's just longliners we're talking about. Additionally imagine the millions of pounds of baitfish, squid etc., to bait all those hooks. And lets not forget the untold millions of pounds of bycatch that most forms of commercial fishing generates...or the terrible devastation that bottom trawlers cause to sensitive sea floor enviroments, possibly ruining them forever. There are indeed more and more sportfisherman harvesting the sea but there is just no way they have the time, money, or ability to impact the world's fish populations the way commercial fisherman can.
Commercial fishermen are represented by powerfull lobyists in Washington DC...Sportfishermen are not. If any serious limitations were to be put on the sport harvest I'd bet good money you would not see those restrictions mirrored in the commercial catch. There's just too much money involved.

So how can we help ?

jrbaja - 8-28-2004 at 11:45 AM

Not by pointing fingers but by doing something.
Like the next time you "clip" one of those red lobster coupons, or feel like long john silvers, or ichibiri sushi, go get a quarter pounder with cheese instead. :light:

Germanicus - 8-28-2004 at 11:48 AM

C.M. that is exactly the point!
thanx for your posting.

But we all can help, I guess.
If 5 anglers are on the/one boat with 10 rods,
is it from any need that those anglers catch 40 fish that day, only for to kill the fish and on land > throw'em away?
if they would give those fish to the (in this case) mexican population for free, it would make sense to me.
It feeds some folks with sense.
But just for the thrill of catching and then dumping the fish >>>????????
That's what every so called "sportsman" should learn.
Germanicus

Cardon Man - 8-28-2004 at 01:34 PM

I, like Whistler, have nothing against commercial fishermen. The Oceans are and should be a rich source of food for the planet. But they, like sportfishers, need to be resposible for the future of the resource. Unfortunately, that is not what is demonstrated most often by the commercial fishing industry. Take as examples the current state of: atlantic cod, bluefin tuna, billfishes etc. All have been hit too hard by commercial harvests.
I don't mean to point fingers at commercial fisherman to divert blame from sport abuses. But there is definately a lot of greed and politics at work behind the scenes of the commercial fishing industry which leads to overfishing on a huge scale world wide.
Jr raises a good point when he suggests doing something about it. I rarely, if ever, buy fish. I catch my own and take only what I can eat. And my dog sees to it that not a scrap is wasted. The way I see it, no one needs to set a longline or a gill net or kill x-pounds of bycatch on my account.

There is no restaurant

jrbaja - 8-28-2004 at 02:27 PM

that can compare to the flavor of a freshly caught fish or mariscos bought right from the boat or diver and cooked over your own grill. :light:

And, next time you go get some swordfish steaks at the store, squeeze them and see what happens :lol:

That oughtta cut down on seafood lovers hahahahahaha

Germanicus - 8-28-2004 at 04:28 PM

yea, yea, and you are eating corn-flakes all day, right?
I guess you are recommending those things for to have more catch to catch and less fishermen on the sea of cortez the time you are going fishing, right?
Now its my turn >

:moon:

:moon::moon:
Germanicus

elizabeth - 8-28-2004 at 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
Not by pointing fingers but by doing something.
Like the next time you "clip" one of those red lobster coupons, or feel like long john silvers, or ichibiri sushi, go get a quarter pounder with cheese instead. :light:

I don't fish, but I eat a lot fish my friends catch...I'm pretty careful about what I buy, though...if you want to know what fish/shellfish should be avoided because of overfishing, bycatch, reef destruction, etc., and which ones are best choices go to www.montereybayaqaurium.org and click on the Seafood Watch icon.

Germanicus - 8-28-2004 at 04:45 PM

elizabeth, good advice.
But there is another reason why to avoid certain seafood.
Seafood (NOT: fish but crustaceans) do 'filter' the water for food.
free living osters and mussels i.e. are severely poisoned in most of the regions.
Same with some sort of crab.
The crustaceans do not feel the chemicals the are filtering out of the water.
But you will.
>>
:lol:

maybe that's the cheapest way to purchese Viagra!
Germanicus

This is very true

jrbaja - 8-28-2004 at 04:53 PM

and an example for the south californians is, although almost all other mollusks were killed off, the mussels weren't even phased.
And any so. cal. surfer knows of or has had ear infections, or worse from those waters.
I know of two dogs that have died from eating bad mussels. One was mine.

poison mussels

Taco de Baja - 8-29-2004 at 08:40 AM

Are not poisonous because of 'chemicals' in the water, they are poisonous because, of filtering red tide microorganisms that are common during the warm water months. The shellfish concentrate the NATURAL toxic chemicals from the plankton in their flesh.
Remember the old saying "only eat shellfish in months that contain the letter "R". All these months are in the fall and winter when the water is too cold for the red tide plankton to survive, they have moved on to warmer waters. Personally I would wait until the middle of the period (December-January) to consume shellfish from the west coast.

Germanicus - 8-29-2004 at 12:06 PM

No fingerpointing??
yes, I do fingerpointing to those so called fisherman doing commercial fishing like I saw it on TV Saturday night.
Title at the National Geographic Explorer:
Tuna Cowboys.
Here the fax-cts and figures.
From Australia 200 to 400 mls into the open ocean huge so called Motherships and a whole fleet of smaller catch-boats hunting down Tuna. Bluefin Tuna.
forcing them into huge round pens.
In only one session, which lasts for two month (then the mothership is full), they are catching 15,000 tunas.
1 tuna sells for $4,500 on the Asian market > make your math !!!!
NOW, a tuna can get about 40 years old and about 8 / 9 feet long.
BUT< there are no 40 years old tunas around anymore.
So they are catching already the 2 to 4 years old ones only 2 / 3 feet long.

It was not said how many fleets of these tuna-catching- robbery-convoys Australia has.
But it was said that Australia only has 1/4 of a commercial fishing fleet than the United States have.
Well, if one fleet catches 15,000 tunas in two month,
assuming they have maybe 10 fleets,
then the U.S. has 40 fleets
that makes (50X15000) 750,000 tunas every two month.
Only catched by the U.S. and Australia.
Bet'ya the Japenese are busy too,
and the Koreans,
qand the vietnamese,
and the Cambodians,
not to forget Europe > norway,England,Germany,France,Italy
MAN, did I forget the other million of tunas which have to be catched for the countries I forgot?

And who might say the sports-fisherman are the ones who are responsible for endangered spicies?
Yes, there are some countries who do not feel responsible for this desaster.
I red the article issued by the Florida State University in Tallahassee / Felicia Coleman.
The European countries are requesting a test from every man who wants to fish outside the 3 mls zone.
Including how to catch (no multiple hooks etc) !
While European countries restrict all catches done by sportsfisherman. the U.S. do not even have any license for a sportsfisherman the article says.
More than 10,000,000 sportsfishing guys are roaming the oceans around the US.
No license needed, no limitation in catch, just money makes it possible for these guys to rob our oceans.
Why is the U.S. always on top of everything when it comes to >
Environmental robbery of our planet?
Examples: Oil spills from cars / envoronmental mischief (no or little recyclyng of valuable recources) old cars in the backyard / Diesel to the soil to fight Mesquite etc. etc. etc.
If somebody disagrees that the U.S.A are the greatest polluter of this planet, I can tell how all this is handled in Europe.
Irresponsible here, very responsible in Europe.
All fisherman (also the commercial) got to have a drivers license for various classes of boats.
If a fisherman is caught with illegal catch (undersize, limited numbers, on the 'black list' etc.) he looses his drivers license for the boat.
No license > no boating > no catching.
It's that easy.
America, where are your standards of responsibility for this world?
[ I'm expecting the outcry of some so called patriots because of this post, but don't care about it )
Germanicus

Germanicus

FrankO - 8-29-2004 at 12:49 PM

Better check your statements against facts.

gonetobaja - 8-29-2004 at 09:59 PM

The only answer is to limit all types of ocean harvesting to hand and speargun. No catch and release, no making it easy. You get a speargun, you hop in the water(No tanks) and you shoot a couple of fish for dinner. If the water is too cold for you you get to eat chicken, which is also very tasty. All of the blue water fish would start to thrive. It could be regulated just like hunting where you have to fill out your tag. The chicken farmers would get rich, and the beef guys too.

People would spend time swimming in the ocean and would apreciate it more. Less fish would be taken because shooting a fish with a speargun and reeling it up with a pole are mentaly two different things. Even though you end up killing the fish in both circumstances, shooting it seems meaner so you tend to let small fish swim by and they are not harrased.

I could go on and on but I know that it is only my dream. People from all over the world are far too lazy to just give up and go get their own fish.

If everyone had to spear their own fish I think that there would be alot more fish...

I have never been in a situation where me or my family needed more than two fish per day.

By the way I go fishing with a pole all of the time and I love that to0, and I eat at seafood resturants which are purveyors of world sealife destruction.

The only real answers life holds for me are in a SHRIMP Taco (another example of ecodestruction support) and a cold Beer(yea I said answers and beer together).

Yet I consider myself a conservationist.

I need to dig my toes in the sand and ponder this some more, Im leaving friday and you guys know where Im goin..

GTB

"My only real worry down there is fresh limes..."

Yeah, and I used to wish

FrankO - 8-29-2004 at 10:14 PM

PCH would fall into the sea so just me and my buddies could surf the coast from Mugu south to Malibu point when we hit it on our mountain bikes. Still waiting for the big one. :cool:

Germanicus - 8-31-2004 at 12:34 PM

whistler, that's alsways the same with the U.S.
Making any attempt to lowering the amount of fish which can be catched in the Atlantic, as it hurts the European Nations. But the Americans can catch whatever they want in the Pacific (from Fireland to the Artics) where no European trawler can go because of feasibilty aspects.

Sorry for bringing politics in here, but it was necessary to say.

Why don't you make a comment on the idea to restrict the catch on sportsfisherman in the U.S.?
Why don't U.S. so called sporstfisherman need no drivers license for their big boats?
A) A good way to adjucate those guys.
B) A good way to legally control the overfishing by those guys who just catch everything they can >overcatch< only for to make some pics and then throwing the fish on the dump?
In France every sportboat entering the harbor has to report at the "Captainerie" >Harbor Authority< in person!
No phone calls!
They are making frequent checks on boats.
But you never know if you are selected for a check.
Did you not comply with the catch-regulations, the first time you get a warning and a penalty > $$$
That hurts right in the first place.
The second violation on catch-restrictions your drivers license for the boat is suspended for at least half a year.
That adjucates more than big words.

Do not fingerpoint on the Europeans.
They are far beyond any environmental adjucation and laws then the U.S.
They are much more severe and serious about protecting this world as the U.S.
Things you can not even imagine happening in the U.S.
Example:
In Germany every household has about 7 trash cans
1. for glass seperated by green/brown/white
2. for wood and paper products
3. for plastics certain categories
4. for styrophome
5. for metal/cans/etc.
6. for household trash wich is composable
7. for household trash not composable
One violation on the law to seperate recycable goods and your tax-stamp on the trash can is gone.
You have to go to the City hall and buy a new one.
Bet'ya you don't violate again.

Now, tell me, can you imagine that in the U.S.?
Number 1 through 5 are recyclable resources.
No need to just dump'em on the landfill.
so, what do you say?(but take it easy, will you?)
Germanicus

ROD & REEL

Capt. George - 8-31-2004 at 05:52 PM

Have fished commercially for striped bass all my life, am 59 now. Still have not come close to one haul seine I saw taken from the shores of Montauk Point NY 45 years ago! I have probably caught more striped bass, rod and reel, then most men alive today and still not close to ONE haul seine all those years ago....nets will do the real damage, in stocks and ocean bottom...rod and reel won't...

Capt. George

Germanicus - 8-31-2004 at 06:49 PM

newest news from the 'travel channel' tonight (Tuesday,Aug.32-04)
The fish market in Tokyo is the biggest in the world.
Everyday they are auctioning off 1,000,000 blue-fins. YES: one million everyday. If the travel channel is serious and right, that is unbelivable.
One 4 to 6 year old is selling for the aquivalent of $10,000.
Guess where the most blue-fins are coming from???
The U.S. and Australia, according to that info.
Any question why the U.S. wants to limit the catch of blue-fins for Europe in the Atlantic?

Hey Dilbert, oops, I mean

FrankO - 8-31-2004 at 08:03 PM

Germanicus, have you ever seen a tuna pen? Maybe you ought do a search on U.S. fishing regs. Why do you think so many Americans fish in other countries. I hope that (Aryan) Euro pedastal isn't too high, I'd hate to see you fall too far from that bastion of superiority.

WADERS

Capt. George - 9-1-2004 at 11:22 AM

Whistler, someone has to do something with my waders, they're neopreme. Wait till you see me in them, bring the mustard and buns, I look like a knockwurst.......

In the Keys, I have to fish with a Lawyer,
Oceanographer and a calculater. There's so many rules, heaped upon the sportfishermen, it's nearly impossible to keep up with them.

I had to get a bigger boat just to hold the "Water Gestapos" Rules and Regulations.....Adios U.S. of A.........

Capt. George

Waders

Capt. George - 9-2-2004 at 08:13 AM

Hot, ain't they!

Calendar! You should see the rules and regs faced by my son-in-law....a commercial lobsterman and giant tuna fisherman out of Cape Cod......if it weren't so sad, it would actually be comical.....

The draggers have it worse. Beaurocrats.
"I have a sheepskin, why should I ask anything of a stupid fourth generation fisherman?, he has no college degree!"

buttcracks, one and all.......I won't even get into the Nat'l Seashore, how about the Park Rangers now have plain clothes, under cover "rangers" driving around parking lots looking for infractions????Spend more of my tax money....adios U.S. of A. El Vikingo

DAWK - 9-2-2004 at 09:51 PM

i used to fish sea of cortez-decades ago ,and can't blame casual sport fisher-folks,but did anyone ever consider that the -hapless poor FISH...would have a better 'sporting-chance' if these many brave and mostly wealthy champagne-slurping , 'brave sport fisher-folks" ,would be forced-by law-to actually ENTER the depths of the oceans ,and see how it feels....to be a "FISH",with BIGGER FISH sizing YOU-UP,for a MEAL! this kind of 'sport fishing would most certainly make these dudes exit the ocean with only the fish they plan to EAT!there IS one 'brave' kind of fishermen,who deep dive for big tuna-with only a snorkel-mask-fins,and they risk getting EATEN...by big fish-lest they escape with their "catch" .
now....thats what I call FISHING!
so, change the "LAW" and see just how many BRAVE fishermen decide to enter the ocean and risk being-eaten-themselves !! this goes 'ditto' for all the gun-totting 'good-ol-boyz' who shoot animals for pleasure-yet not for consumption. it's all about "FALSE-MACHO" when you do not need the 'food' for your starving family. :lol:

Yeah, you know how it is...

FrankO - 9-2-2004 at 10:54 PM

when I'm out there in my 14' gregor w/the 15 horse Johnson. I just slay the fish and then break out the champagne to celebrate my total dominance over the sea. :lol:

Of course, this is during the time I am not watching for weather changes or just enjoying the beauty around me.
I eat what I take. And I enjoy it. I'll be smoking the rest of it manana en la tarde.

Dawk or DORK

Capt. George - 9-3-2004 at 03:30 PM

I'll go with Dork!

Wadda dink you are.....go watch an Arnold movie and crank your carrot.

How about Ding-A-Ling or Duffus or Ding-Dong, maybe Dip-chit, Dumb-Dumb.

What are you smoking man??

Capt. Coward, I've never even swam with a shark, oohhhh, shame on me!

El Vikingo

I think yall

jrbaja - 9-3-2004 at 07:08 PM

oughtta be posting as anonymous :lol:

Germanicus - 9-4-2004 at 02:42 PM

> care to comment? <
NO.
as long as such primitifs as FrankO are on a thread, I'm out.
Read his post and everybody knows what I mean > personal attacks.
Have a nice day!

Pussy.

FrankO - 9-4-2004 at 04:00 PM

I'm usually pretty clear in my statements, righto or wrong. And I take the heat when I am wrong and I admit it. You still haven't addressed in factual terms U.S. fishing regs. I guess facts don't work for superior Euros. They're a lot of second generation Germans in the Yucatan. I guess they had to run somewhere. The few times I've been there they still had German accents. Might be a better place for a blowhard. Now that's "primitif". :lol:

Im with dawk

gonetobaja - 9-7-2004 at 08:55 PM

Im not saying that just because you fish out of a boat that you are a whimp. Im not saying that blue water hunting for tuna makes you a man. What I am saying is that if the law of taking fish from the ocean was changed to actually having to enter the ocean and get the fish with a speargun, or in the case of shellfish, lobsers, etc by hand. I truly believe that the fish populations would restore themselvs. I think that freediver/spearfishermen have a slightly different view of the undersea world and its residents than a fisherman that only sits on top of the ocean and dosent get in. It seems to me like it would be an easy answer to a difficult problem. Of course alot of people wouldnt be able to eat seafood but insnt the problem that we are eating too much?

There are alot of times when the conditions are too rough for spearfishing, and some crabs and lobser only come out at night. When fishing with a rod and reel, you can get alot of fish when conditions are bad. You can trap alot of crab.

Of course only another freediver/spearfishermen would agree with me.

I wonder if Germanicus would be willing to go 50 miles off shore and jump into 2000ft of water to spear a big yellowfin so he could have a tuna sandwich, sounds extreme but so is tuna net.

not an implication just a question

Sharks dont like swimming with me because I put too much sh-t in the water when they swim by. Kinda like an octupus but a different brownish ink...

GTB
http://www.gonetobaja.com

gonetobaja - 9-7-2004 at 10:56 PM

I live in San diego and have from 1971 and have hunted WSB in the kelp off of La Jolla too many times to count. Yellowtail at the paddies, big sheephead at the coronados. The Enchanted Islands area is full of white sea bass, and even Totuaba that are giant white sea bass. We also have large yellowtail out here, not just grouper.

Have you ever shot a 40lb grouper and tried to wrestle it to the surface? I have. Here is some info on grouper that I have found, they patrol their area, they dont just sit in their holes. There hole is where they drag you and all of your gear after you shoot them. A grouper dosent just hold still and let you swim up and shoot him, you have to dive over and over in the same spot to the bottom and hold still with the hopes that one may swim by on patrol. One of the most dangerous fish to shoot is a grouper in baja 5 hrs from nowhere. A 15lb leoapard grouper can tie all of your gear up in a "hole" 40ft below the surface and you will spend 2hrs trying to get him free.

If you check my website and go under spearfishing there is a picture of me holding a yellowtail we shot at the islands right under a pic of the 70lb+ grouper we got on the same trip.

The big gulf grouper in that pic was shot by a man weighing 140lbs. It pulled him under twice and he had a 50ft floating drag line with a bouy on the end.

I dont just shoot one kind of fish, I shoot all fish. I do not discriminate, I shoot anything big. (except totuaba, and parrot fish because they are pretty) And Ill shoot a triggerfish if Im hungry.

GTB
http://www.gonetobaja.com

"Fishermen of the world, stop playing with your poles...learn to sink your shaft deep into the meat, bust a hole right through...for the good of humanity"

bajaloco - 9-8-2004 at 08:21 AM

Gone to baja has his idea of fishing and it's not mine...What you are doing is hunting. I too use a rod and reel, I also spearfish, I also dive with scuba, I also hunt wild land animals to eat. Having said that, I never do anything to fill a freezer or someone else's. I eat what I take. The sport is in the hunt, not the kill.....

gonetobaja - 9-8-2004 at 09:23 AM

Black sea bass are not puppies, They outweigh them and can swim much better. They also live underwater. Grouper are not black sea bass. They behave different under the water. Although it is true that Black SB will let you swim right up to them the puppy stuff would end right about the time when you shoot them and try to get them up. I dont shoot Black SB because my Scuba customers like to swim up to them and feel like discovery channel.

For the record I caught my dinner this weekend on a rod and reel. A triggerfish.

Loco is right, Spearfishing combines the art of hunting with the knowledge of a fisherman. However I think we are getting away from the question.

How do we regain the big fish stocks?

MY answer is still the same. Make everyone spearfish. I know that will never happen because people are just too lazy to get in the water everytime they want to go get some fish.

You could make rod and reel fishing catch and release only and then people could still enjoy the day of fishing.

The guy who used to shoot Blacks at guadalupe paid for his fishing practices with his life, Is every fishermen willing to take those risks?

Of course not, that is why people would be opposed to only spearfishing.

Another admission, I would guess 70% of my customers dont spearfish, however after teaching them they seem to like it.

If the law actualy changed then I may be in for some rough times. But it wont.

Hey whistler WSB=yes

If you log on to http://www.ochunter.com there alot of pics of local CA fish shot by spearfishermen. Its not as unusual as one might think.

For alot of info on spearfishing you can check out http://spearboard.com there is a nationwide surge in spearfishing and I think its great.

Loco is right(twice), if we dont fill another persons freezer with our excess that the situation would be alot better.

Im still waiting for someone to tell me that making everyone spearfish would be bad for fish stocks...

Anyone...?

GTB

http://www.gonetobaja.com

SPEARFISH

Capt. George - 9-8-2004 at 01:30 PM

I see more and more "fishermen" switching to the spear in the Keys....Not able to produce using the rod and reel..These same guys now are producing bigger numbers then when they were rod and reeling.....Tell you something?

Not a good sign in my book, by the way, these guys are market spearing....Hogfish now almost impossible on rod and reel and getting harder with the spear.

Rod and reel seems a great deal more difficult then swimming into your preys living room and shooting him.....To each his own, but the addition of so many more spearfishermen to the ranks has certainly decreased the rod and reelers chances........

I'll stick to the wand anyway.......

Capt. George

gonetobaja - 9-8-2004 at 05:37 PM

Well there we go...

Capt. george, I hear you on your Fla spearfish delima. In fla you can spearfish with a tank on. It makes it a much different task than while freediving. Using a speargun while having a tank even in the boat is illegal in mexico.

Of course there are many ways in which we make our chances of getting fish better, a reliable boat, a reliable truck, a place to stay close to the fish. But the actual method of the take I think is what is in question. Of course there are many ways to indirectly affect our fishing experiences but the method of take is the most directly responsible cause and the most easily changed.

Yes that grouper In the sportfishing section was caught on a rod and reel. It was that guys first one so I put it on the site. The one thing about this whole spearfishing/fishing discussion I think we are forgetting is that the take limit is the same for both.

As far as profit, well whistler your are not the first guy to pull that card on me and you wont be the last. Ive gotten hate e-mails from enviornmentalists that think Im the begining of the end of an ecosystem at the Enchanted Islands. Im sure you have seen my pricing and services and its easy to do the math. You can see that making a big profit and fishing in mexico just dont add up. I do this work because I can just scrape by and pay my payments and at the same time go out to the islands. Its probably not the most responsible way to live I will admit, but for a hopeless baja junkie like me its the only way to get some money. The alternative for me is spearfish in Baja and be totaly unemployed.

And I wouldnt call it fishing for profit. The money I get is for the trip there and back, safely. I get paid for being a guide not on how many fish we get or dont get. Landing fish is not my job.

The shrimper in San Felipe will say that stoping trawlers will hurt his family. The resturants that sell shrimp tacos would go under. the gill net guy says if nobody fished with a rod and reel and just bought fish from him than there would be plenty of fish. Everyone has a valid point and opinion.

But what is the real answer.....

PACIFICO (mex version)

Everyone should be able to enjoy the ocean how ever they want. Scuba spearfishing, pole fishing, freediving,

I need a beer...

GTB
http://www.gonetobaja.com

gonetobaja - 9-8-2004 at 10:53 PM

You got me,

I forgot that I put the big one on the bottom of the sportfishing page. That fish was shot but I put it there to show fishermen that if thats the fish they want to catch I know where they live. I was talking about the smaller lepoard grouper at the top. I had taken a fishermen out to a spot that I "Knew" had big grouper in it. He fished there all day with all types of lures but couldnt catch one. I told him to catch some live bait but he insisted on using these big plastic fish things with the wiggly tail. The trigger fish kept shredding all of his lures to peices on every cast. He said that there were no grouper in that spot. We usualy get them trolling big rapala magnums in shallow water.

I have heard about the white seabass thing. Its a sure thing that groups like that one have made a big help in the White sea bass stock. They used to be alot harder to find. I acutaly havent shot one for over a year. The last time was at Catalina Island outside of Shark Harbor on the back side of the island. Its very true that without the efforts of organized fishermen It would be impossible for me to be stalking any WSB in the kelp. They are doing a similar thing in San Felipe with the Totuaba.

No worries about the profit thing, I have alot of people tell me opinions they are thinking about me working in mexico as a guide I have never had anyone say "Wow thats a stable and well though out plan, quiting your job is a great idea!"

It was all very clear to me though... :light:

GTB
http://www.gonetobaja.com

:bounce:

My goal is to shoot the barracuda that killed nemos mom, that really peeed me off... :fire: