BajaNomad - Input wanted on commuter plane from LA-GN

Input wanted on commuter plane from LA-GN

shari - 5-27-2011 at 03:18 PM

I have been communicating with the owner of a new airline wanting to expand service into central baja. He wants to put a 10 seater commuter plane route from LA to Guerrero Negro. We have a meeting next week to discuss this and I thought it would be interesting to get some feedback here...to get a feel for if people would use it.

There are several destinations that could be accessed by a flight from LA to GN like BOLA, Rosalillita, GN, coastal villages like Asuncion, Tortugas, La Bocana/Abreojos, and San Ignacio, Mulege, Chivato, Sta.Rosalia too. This would be particularly attractive to home owners or guests who dont need to pack alot of stuff with them or when someone needs to get back to the states quick. Looks like the prices will be competitive too. I would appreciate hearing from folks who may use this service...have a nice weekend amigos.

woody with a view - 5-27-2011 at 03:22 PM

competitive relative to what?

it certainly would be a great way to jam down for some fast fishing and return with a load of filets and memories.......

shari - 5-27-2011 at 03:39 PM

prices are what we will be discussing at our little pow wow for sure...success or failure will be determined by the ticket price.

motoged - 5-27-2011 at 03:51 PM

Will the airstrips at all those towns be capable of handling a 10-seater???

I am sure a few pilots will jump in here soon.....

I just want to find a pilot with a small plane to fly me around for a few hours between GN and Loreto, zigzagging across the peninsula to see if "I can get there from here". :saint:

elgatoloco - 5-27-2011 at 03:53 PM

Find out if my shortboard will fit. It's 10'1". :saint:

Iflyfish - 5-27-2011 at 04:03 PM

We would have used that flight this winter for sure and would certainly consider it in the future, hope it works out.

Iflyfish

E.D.R.Rick - 5-27-2011 at 04:17 PM

What about San Felipe?

Bajahowodd - 5-27-2011 at 04:21 PM

My dos pesos.

Knowing how relatively small the villages are in the area, and the lack of first class* accommodations (no disrespect, Shari.. read on), I have distant relatives who are well-heeled, who have taken to visiting the whales at San Ignacio, and have had friends, also well-heeled, join them on subsequent trips. They engage some outfitter in San Diego to fly them to the strip by the lagoon, and stay at one of the places that offer "primitive" accommodations, food and tours on the pangas.

I'm told that these folks pay between $2200 and $2500 per person for this. R/T flight and a couple of nights of accommodations at the lagoon.

What I'm getting at here is that I'd guess that overhead for anyone attempting to initiate service between LAX and GN, will result in the need to charge an amount per person that may just exclude the typical Asuncion afficionado.

Hey! I may just be way off base in my assumptions, but I thought I'd throw it out for comment.

* typical resort style

dtbushpilot - 5-27-2011 at 04:22 PM

There would, of course be a lot to consider and I would assume that if someone is at the "talking to the locals" stage that they have already done some homework and already have most of the technical questions answered but I'll throw out a few just for S&G's.

The first thing I would question is weather they can get insurance coverage to fly into unimproved, unmaintained (read dirt) strips and do they have a capable plane (Cessna Caravan) to do it. I seem to recall you saying something about a twin Commander, it would work but not the best choice for this duty.

GN isn't general aviation friendly, no fuel or services are available there....unless they have made other arrangements.

How much is it going to cost me to get from GN to Asuncion or any of those other destinations if it turns out that they can't actually fly there?

How am I going to get to LA from wherever I live and how much will that cost and where am I going to park my car?

If I could leave from an LA airport and fly directly, or with one stop to Asuncion, Abreojos etc. it might make sense but it still sounds like a full day's trip from San Diego......kinda like driving is.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be economically viable I'm just thinking out loud.....dt

msteve1014 - 5-27-2011 at 04:40 PM

If I read Shari's post correctly, they are only going to land in GN, not every dirt strip with this 10 seater. Maybe later if this works out first?

I might use the servise, but then I have to get to La Bocana, and would not have a car while there, and how do I launch the boat? I don't know.

shari - 5-27-2011 at 04:47 PM

thanks for thinking out loud...these are the kind of things I was hoping for. Sorry I wasnt clearer but it sounded like there is a 7 passenger plane that will fly a route to this area and hit tortugas, cedros and GN from Ensenada...this route caters to business folks from GN, the fishing coops, some tourists etc. they will hop over here on a 20 minute flight from Tortugas if there are 3 passengers or more.

But Vincente was also thinking about the viability of a direct flight from LA-GN on a bigger 10 passenger plane. Who knows if it would meet up with the plane that will service the smaller villages.

If this flight materializes, there would most likely be a carrier van to bring folks to the coast or individual businesses would pick up their clients for a fee.

People like my bro who fly into LA from Canada would be much happier to fly to GN than into Loreto and have to stay the night, either take the bus or rent a car to get all the way here. I will ask Vicente about parking spots at the LA end and how much space is available for surf boards, dive & fishing gear and fish coolers . As more people have second homes in central baja, I can see more people using this service if it isnt exhorbitantly priced. We do have many clients who fly into Loreto to get here and it is just so far away.

One benefit is that it is a way to avoid the gauntlet...(perceived)danger zones...gets ya here quicker and not so road weary either. Believe it or not we are not not everyone are paupers here in Asuncion and some people have more money than time and would be glad to fly in. I get alot of requests about how to fly here. Until now...a charter was required and there are never enough people wanting to fly on the same days to make it cost effective.

[Edited on 5-27-2011 by shari]

shari - 5-27-2011 at 04:51 PM

yes those whale packages are pretty pricey and if there was a sched flight, it sure would be cheaper to fly to GN and stay in a nice hotel and see whales that way...and during whale season, they may put more flights on.

DianaT - 5-27-2011 at 04:56 PM

Would they stop in San Diego? That seems like a good place to pick up passengers, and the last time we checked, which was a while ago, long-term parking was cheaper.

Are they talking about LAX or one of the many other airports in that area?

[Edited on 5-27-2011 by DianaT]

shari - 5-27-2011 at 05:01 PM

no stop in san diego and I will ask if it is LAX.

Cap - 5-27-2011 at 05:15 PM

If you are talking about scheduled service acrossed the border, you will have an enormous regulatory burden to deal with. On demand and seasonal charter have been operating in the area for some time, mostly whale season, crossing the border was left up to passengers though. There are also a few "private" companies that operate in some grey areas. If you would like to discuss specifics, you can email me, and I can give you more detail. I also have some growing airline companies that are already operating in Baja that I can put you in touch with.
-suerte,
cap

O.G. - 5-27-2011 at 05:28 PM

OMG! I try to avoid LAX at all costs. Can the service originate at some secondary airport in the general L.A. area?

1bobo - 5-27-2011 at 05:34 PM

With the 6000' paved runway at San Bruno that gets very little traffic (Guaymas only, I believe), and the demand the new mining operation is sure to create, you might consider looking into that location. Not too far to Viscaino.

shari - 5-27-2011 at 05:37 PM

I will ask them about where the plane will depart from...thanks everyone for your input...getting a good list of questions and concerns together for the meeting.

woody with a view - 5-27-2011 at 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by O.G.
OMG! I try to avoid LAX at all costs. Can the service originate at some secondary airport in the general L.A. area?

the BEST thing about LA is getting through it on the way to anywhere else.....

:light:

flyfishinPam - 5-27-2011 at 05:43 PM

This guy could fill his planes if he did LA or better, Orange County to Loreto, or San Diego-Loreto or better yet, Carlsbad-Loreto. There are so many benefits to using a small charter over a large airline now. You know how to contact me, can you put this guy in contact with me or give me the name of his service? I'm dead serious.

motoged - 5-27-2011 at 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
This guy could fill his planes if he did LA or better, Orange County to Loreto, or San Diego-Loreto ....

Yep

shari - 5-27-2011 at 07:47 PM

canadians and americans from the north who fly south usually fly into LA so this would help them no?

[Edited on 5-28-2011 by shari]

ElCap - 5-27-2011 at 09:30 PM

I believe my friend flew GN to Ensenada with him last month. He was also interested in flying direct to San Ignacio in the future - not the laguna but rather to the paved airstrip just north of town (east of Mex 1 and just north of military checkpoint. The delegado there has been contacted and they are looking into getting that runway in better shape to handle such flights. Of course it all depends on price, but sure would be a great option for people trying to get to central Baja.

capt. mike - 5-28-2011 at 05:56 AM

Aero Servicios de GN has already pioneered this and they can only make it work occasionally on demand. It will never fly as a sked. Not enough demand and will cost too much as a sked. Sked means it goes whether full or not.
there are others like Cap says, like Kevin Warren who runs a fleet of 207s and Cherokee sixes on charter.

Charter is the only market which is viable in baja.
Also DGAC will stick their nose into it and expect to pay them huge license fees.
A friend of mine went to set up Caravans from SDL to Alamos and Rocky point but when he went to Mexico city he was told $20K a year for permits then in one meeting they changed it to $100K!!

shari - 5-28-2011 at 06:28 AM

never say never is my motto!!! but Mike is most likely right. the problem with Aero GN who actually do have sched flights, is that tourists can get bumped if there are salt works passengers needing to fly...if there is a big meeting or something.

flyfishinPam - 5-28-2011 at 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
canadians and americans from the north who fly south usually fly into LA so this would help them no?

[Edited on 5-28-2011 by shari]

I am busy so just a quick education on the target market.
It is way easier to depart and arrive into a secondary airport than huge, congested, pain in the butt LAX. In the case of a puddlejumper which this is, you (we) are targeting the regional market of the airport around it, not Chicago or farther away. If pricing is competitive people will come that much is for sure. Seriously, you e-mailed me about the licenses now e-mail me about this and lets talk real business with this guy.

If anyone else out there can put me in touch with regional air services please do it, I can be contacted here: http://www.bajabigfish.com/?page_id=55

I am part of an organization of small businesses and hotels called Loreto Adventure Network http://www.loretoadventurenetwork.com
also a member of the Loreto Hotel Association, the entire community will back up what I propose.
thanks

horntoad - 5-28-2011 at 09:04 AM

I would do it just to fly the Baja coast a few times a year for sure, provided it's not too spendy. I would rather fly out of Carlsbad, San Diego, or even a smaller airport in San Diego down near the border. My destination would likely be LA Bay, so would need a way to get to the Bay unless a stop on the way down or back could be made?? If flying to GN, I would need to get a lift to the bay somehow. If I had to go to LA to fly out, I would probably just drive instead.

HT

flyfishinPam - 5-28-2011 at 09:05 AM

one more thing I forgot. people do not want to cross the border to take the puddlejumper. its the USA departure return trip that's most appealing, throw on smaller regional airports its a deal that's hard to not consider for travelers and commuters

mtgoat666 - 5-28-2011 at 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
one more thing I forgot. people do not want to cross the border to take the puddlejumper. its the USA departure return trip that's most appealing, throw on smaller regional airports its a deal that's hard to not consider for travelers and commuters

cost to cross border increases costs dramatically (planes or operator need permits in both countries, need to clear immigration at airports with immigration [no immigration at LA bay, GN, etc]).

it'a all about cost. the retirees are penny P-nchers.

where is demand for regular service? charter demand is at most infrequent, and seasonal

Oggie - 5-28-2011 at 09:18 AM

The last time I checked the airport at Bahia de los Angeles was closed due to a dispute over airport fees. Does anyone know different?

flyfishinPam - 5-28-2011 at 09:31 AM

locked and loaded sent the e-mail to the señor, thanks again Sheri, disfruta el dia y carpe diem and all that

pricing,?? priceless.

Loreto is already supporting airfares of over $800 round trip from LAX PLUS baggage fees (Horizon). I wil only say that I've been in business for 15 years and although business is down as is everyone's due to lack of access to here, I am not starving by any means and we're actually quite enjoying it. Our normal high season months have remained good I certainly can't complain of my share of the market which is pretty small 72 seats per four days per week = 288 seats total per week for all of Loreto. My percentage of that is pretty damned good for a gringa that came here to stay in a pick up, with a dog and $200 dollars a dozen years ago. I am with my kids all day now until the shop opens for the season, and I put in fewer hours, cut overhead mucho and learned even more, and more stress free. I've been hiking in the mountains, starting new business ventures that tailor to a competely different market, organic gardening and fixing up my house.

well gotta check out, but I'm glad I peeked during a break and found this great info. Loreto's people need work I am not only thinking of myself but of all of us, and this guy will get some business (or not) that he may not have really considered. Plus I will seek more of these services out now. I already have plans of what to include on a contract for air service, I have been working on it for about 11 years when I was trying to get something with ATA (they went out of biz since), anyway gotta run thanks again!!

mtgoat666 - 5-28-2011 at 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oggie
The last time I checked the airport at Bahia de los Angeles was closed due to a dispute over airport fees. Does anyone know different?

probably closed because permit and maintenance costs are higher than operator can recoup from landing fees; or airport owner non-compliance or incompetence

Skeet/Loreto - 5-28-2011 at 09:35 AM

Pam:

Years ago the Service out of TJ was a Convair which went to GN over to Mulege, then Loreto and to La Paz, spent the nite and did a Return flight back to TJ.

It would be easy to set up a Shuttle from the Border to TJ Airport,

I do not mean to discourage you but Baja Sur is going to suffer for the next few years due to the Economy here in the States.

I am sure Rick Perry can help bring about a Good Change.

Skeet

duh!

flyfishinPam - 5-28-2011 at 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

duh goat! your questions and comments show your obvious lack of understanding in these matters. nfm

to the rest of the (sane) people reading this board-
the above was directed to goat, its a tease thing we do to each other in the off-topic. he's a damned liberal and I have grown into a more liberatarian-conservative now carry on, and group hug
you too, you damned goat!

flyfishinPam - 5-28-2011 at 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Pam:

Years ago the Service out of TJ was a Convair which went to GN over to Mulege, then Loreto and to La Paz, spent the nite and did a Return flight back to TJ.

It would be easy to set up a Shuttle from the Border to TJ Airport,

I do not mean to discourage you but Baja Sur is going to suffer for the next few years due to the Economy here in the States.

I am sure Rick Perry can help bring about a Good Change.

Skeet

no worries, I'm not discouraged I am a survivor and how can I complain about this beautiful place to survive in. the sissies that came in on the coat-tails of Loreto Bay are the ones worrying, owing debt plus can't even pay overhead let alone bring in a profit, they'll continue to drop. kinda like waste management.

Americans and I think Canadians, want USA-Mexico service they do not want to cross the border to do it, but Mexican tourism is also something we consider and work towards as is european tourism, but we gotta switch gears and change the way things are to be done. its called survivin' that's life, I think I'll go dive for almejas chocolates and survive on them today!

I dunno who this Perry guy is but I take care of my own stuff and don't count on or hope for anyone to do it for me, know what I mean? well better go hose off the snorkel gear

shari - 5-28-2011 at 10:51 AM

I heard positive comments from clients who flew to Cedros via Ensenada...they love the shuttle service from san diego to ensenada...said it was hassle free and fun.

jenny.navarrette - 5-28-2011 at 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
I have been communicating with the owner of a new airline wanting to expand service into central baja. He wants to put a 10 seater commuter plane route from LA to Guerrero Negro.

This is just a pipedream by somebody who is very naive. This will never happen. There are laws in place the will prevent this from happening. First of all, all aircraft entering Mexico have to land at a designated port of entry to clear customs and immigration. GN is not a port of entry. So the "airline" would have to first stop at TJ, Ensenada, Mexicali or Loreto.

Secondly, Mexico as well as the US, has rules on cabotage. That means domestic routes are only for domestic airlines. Once stopping at a Mexican port of entry, the "airline" could only board passengers to leave Mexico. It could not carry passengers on another stop inside Mexico.

Third, how is this "airline" going to comply with the post-911 security rules for passenger and baggage screening? Without it, it would not be allowed to enter US airspace from Mexico.

Forth, scheduled airlines have regulations on where they can land. The airport has to meet minimum standards on lighting, weather observation, emergency rescue equipment, instrument landing procedures, etc. GN won't qualify for a scheduled airline stop.

This idea just cannot be done as a scheduled airline, it can only be done as a charter operation, and there are already plenty of starving competitors. Even a US based charter operation cannot legally carry passengers who did not originate in the US between two airports in Mexico. That means they cannot be chartered to carry passengers between, say GN and Ensenada, without the same passengers continuing on with them to the US.

elgatoloco - 5-28-2011 at 11:35 AM

http://www.10news.com/news/26458859/detail.html

SAN DIEGO -- A proposed cross-border airport terminal could give San Diegans more access to flights and may lead to more growth in the Otay Mesa area.

The Otay-Tijuana Venture LLC has plans to build a cross-border facility that will ultimately become an airport terminal in the United States for the Tijuana International Airport.

The $77.9 million privately funded facility would be built in Otay Mesa, just west of the Otay Mesa Port of Entry. Airline passengers would park in the U.S., check their bags in and go through security in the U.S. They would then walk across a 500-foot pedestrian bridge over the U.S.-Mexico border and board a plane in Tijuana

BajaBlanca - 5-28-2011 at 01:39 PM

We would gladly use this service if it were cost effective, as the driving up north, at least 2 times a year, is getting OLD.

Anyone flying into GN and wanting to come to La Bocana/Campo Rene/ P Abreojos for a vacation = we can figure out a way to get you here. The captains are happy to pick you up in the mornings and bring you back to wherever you are staying, at the end of the day.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-28-2011 at 02:32 PM

To all the good Posters!

Generally there are two different kinds of Folks coming to Baja Sur. One who only has a couple of Weeks and wants to get the most of his Time, The other that has all the time and wants to live the Manana Life.

To many times the Short timers of Americans and Canadians want and expect things to be done as they are in the States and Canada.

flyfishinPam - 5-30-2011 at 06:42 AM

Thanks again for this thread!

I had a great conversation with the owner of this airline and he will be back on the peninsula in about 10 days. I hope to meet him in Loreto and personally inspect his aircraft and helios. If what he tells me is true then this service may become a reality for service to Loreto fairly soon. Taking into consideration what Jenny said in her blunt way, I already understand those conditions was married to a pilot and I have been involved in contracts with major airlines as well. As long as his equipment passes our inspections and he can get permits to operate as a scheduled service from secondary airports in So cal and perhaps other states along the border, he will have an excellent chance to grow his business. Even if he cannot get those permits Loreto could still fill seats from LOc Cabos, Tijuana or Ensenada or better yet a major hub from mainland such as Hermosillo. If Loreto were treated as a hub, his planes could service Guerrero Negro as he is a Mexican airline. but we'll see....pendiente fingers crossed, eyes too

[Edited on 5-30-2011 by flyfishinPam]

motoged - 5-30-2011 at 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
....Too many times the Short timers of Americans and Canadians want and expect things to be done as they are in the States and Canada.

Skeet,
I agree...and those folks are sometimes an embarrassment. I try to avoid them when they get impatient and demanding or b-tchy... :wow:

I sure hope I don't get like that :biggrin:

Marc - 5-31-2011 at 04:33 PM

Did I miss it? What kind of aircraft would be in use?