BajaNomad

Power board up and running

Santiago - 6-2-2011 at 05:28 PM

[img][/img]
OK, I've finally got the my power board for the PV system up and running in my NOB garage, testing everything. In the photo, the PV panels are not connected. Here are my costs to date:

Two SUN-SV-T-195 panels @ $ 347.10 each ($1.78/watt) $694.20
Xantrex 1500watt inverter (model 1512) $648.00
Xantex C60 charge controller $149.94
Shipping for above 3 items from Sun Electric $144.41

60' of #4 wire from Home Depot $35.00
30' 2/0 battery cable from swap meet $30.00
Lugs, shrink wrap from Northern Arizona $26.00

Inline maxi fuses, shunt etc from Northern Arizona $45.00
Battery cutoff switch from Harbor Frieght $10.75
Ground bus $5.00
300amp fuse and holder from Solarseller.com $61.71

Two 6 volt golf cart from Sam's $173.60
TriMetric meter, lugs from Northern Arizona $158.23
Hydrolic crimping tool from Harbor Frieght $53.17

Square D QO load center with breakers from Craig's List $40.00
3 new 15 amp breakers $15.00
250' 14/2 romex from Home Depot $55.00
Pull chain light fixtures, misc $35.00
stapels, tape, wire nuts, etc (most from inventory) $25.00
Used boxes/switches/plugs from Habitat for Humanity Restore $20.00
Used Jelly jar light fixtures from HFH Restore $22.00
Ufer ground and wire (estimate as of 5/25) $35.00

Totals $2,482.01

I'm posting this stuff for two reasons:
1. comments and suggestions.
2. Others contemplating doing this have some idea of the costs involved.

One thing I would do differently, as a number of you and others from solar boards suggested, is to buy a complete 12v fused disconnect box similar to what MidNight solar makes. These are available for $200 or so and I have about $130 into all these parts. I'm glad I did it as it forced me to research and learn each individual part but really, not worth it.
With two panels, this wiring will not fuse each one but for now, I will live with that.
I am certainly not married to the placement of items on the board, it just kinda worked out the way it did as I planned out the larger cabling runs. It goes without saying that when I re-install the board in Baja, the cabling will be a bit more organized.
The relationship to to the batteries is about right, but there will be a plywood bench top at the level of the bottom of the plywood board. Batteries, by the way, are Sam's 6v golf carts, 220amp hours. At $79, I consider them to be disposable so after a year or so, I'll have a better idea of my usage and any rookie errors won't wipe out expensive batteries. That's my thinking, anyway.
One of my biggest worries is getting all this stuff across the boarder. I will completely dissemble the board, repack the components in it's original packing and hope for the best.:cool:

DENNIS - 6-2-2011 at 06:03 PM

Shocking.

woody with a view - 6-2-2011 at 06:41 PM

looks good. i'm impressed.

jenny.navarrette - 6-2-2011 at 07:34 PM

1. I'm not sure why you needed the 300amp fuse. The power inverter should be fused anyway. But it won't hurt anything.

2. Keep your DC lines short. That positive line from the charge controller to the positive terminal of the battery could have been shorter and connected up at the 300amp fuse holder.

3. With a 1500 watt inverter, you only needed one 15-amp breaker in the breaker box to carry the load. You have four. Most likely the inverter's circuit protection would pop before the 15-amp breaker anyway. 15 amps @ 120 volts = 1,800 watts. To protect anything, a breaker has to pop before the maximum load of the inverter.

4. Why are there 4 wires running from the inverter to the breaker box? Should only be 2 wires feeding the breaker box. Actually I don't think you even need the breaker box with only 1500 watts, as long as the inverter is circuit protected.

5. Is that a fusible link on the 12v negative input to the inverter? Redundant with the 300 amp fuse on the positive.

6. I don't know where you are installing this, it looks like a standalone system away from the power grid, but if you also have utility power you will need an isolation switch to disconnect from the grid.


[Edited on 6-3-2011 by jenny.navarrette]

bajatravelergeorge - 6-2-2011 at 09:12 PM

Don't put the componets back in the original packaging if you are smuggling this stuff in. Or were you planning on paying duty on it?

larryC - 6-3-2011 at 07:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jenny.navarrette
1. I'm not sure why you needed the 300amp fuse. The power inverter should be fused anyway. But it won't hurt anything.

2. Keep your DC lines short. That positive line from the charge controller to the positive terminal of the battery could have been shorter and connected up at the 300amp fuse holder.

3. With a 1500 watt inverter, you only needed one 15-amp breaker in the breaker box to carry the load. You have four. Most likely the inverter's circuit protection would pop before the 15-amp breaker anyway. 15 amps @ 120 volts = 1,800 watts. To protect anything, a breaker has to pop before the maximum load of the inverter.

4. Why are there 4 wires running from the inverter to the breaker box? Should only be 2 wires feeding the breaker box. Actually I don't think you even need the breaker box with only 1500 watts, as long as the inverter is circuit protected.

5. Is that a fusible link on the 12v negative input to the inverter? Redundant with the 300 amp fuse on the positive.

6. I don't know where you are installing this, it looks like a standalone system away from the power grid, but if you also have utility power you will need an isolation switch to disconnect from the grid.


[Edited on 6-3-2011 by jenny.navarrette]


1 Inverters DC input is seldom fused from the factory, at least I know mine were not, so his fuse is appropriate.
2 This is just a mock up, when Jim gets it down here he will cut the wires to the appropriate length.
3 True, he could have gotten away with 10 amp fuses (if they even make them) but the way he did it gives him some room to grow in the future to a bigger inverter.
4 I only see three wires to the breaker box from the inverter, a black, white, and a green.
5 No, that is a shunt, and is required to make the Trimetric battery monitor work.
6 No grid where he is installing. At least probably not in our life time.

[Edited on 6-3-2011 by larryC]

Santiago - 6-3-2011 at 07:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jenny.navarrette
1. I'm not sure why you needed the 300amp fuse. The power inverter should be fused anyway. But it won't hurt anything.
The fuse on the + battery cable is in case there is a battery short - a tool falling and touching both terminals for example. [quote/]

Quote:
2. Keep your DC lines short. That positive line from the charge controller to the positive terminal of the battery could have been shorter and connected up at the 300amp fuse holder.

Yes, I intended to shorten it on final installation but never thought of connecting it to the terminal at the disconnect switch.
Quote:
3. With a 1500 watt inverter, you only needed one 15-amp breaker in the breaker box to carry the load. You have four. Most likely the inverter's circuit protection would pop before the 15-amp breaker anyway. 15 amps @ 120 volts = 1,800 watts. To protect anything, a breaker has to pop before the maximum load of the inverter.

When I sized the photo for posting, the notes became too small to read. The first breaker is a 30 amp and acts as my 'main' because the hot from the inverter goes directly to it; then I've bonded the to hot legs of the panel together thus making all slots 120v and going thru the 30 amp 'main'. The rest of the breakers are 15 amp and will serve as circuit breakers for the cabin.
Quote:
4. Why are there 4 wires running from the inverter to the breaker box? Should only be 2 wires feeding the breaker box.

There are only three; black (hot), white (neutral) and green (ground). The green is going to the ground buss in the load center, could just as easily go to the ground buss on the board.
Quote:
5. Is that a fusible link on the 12v negative input to the inverter? Redundant with the 300 amp fuse on the positive.

No, that is 500 amp shunt for the TriMetric meter.
Quote:
6. I don't know where you are installing this, it looks like a standalone system away from the power grid, but if you also have utility power you will need an isolation switch to disconnect from the grid.

This is simply a test setup for my small off-grid cabin in Baja.


[Edited on 6-3-2011 by jenny.navarrette]

larryC - 6-3-2011 at 08:05 AM

Jim
One thing I just thought of, I don't see a remote battery temp sensor on your charge controller. They are not very expensive and help alot with water usage in your batteries. If you don't have one they are worth the $30 they cost.
Larry

Santiago - 6-3-2011 at 08:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by larryC
Jim
One thing I just thought of, I don't see a remote battery temp sensor on your charge controller. They are not very expensive and help alot with water usage in your batteries. If you don't have one they are worth the $30 they cost.
Larry

The charger did not come with one but the inverter/charger did?? As they are both Xantrex and they look to be able to plug into either unit, I intend to use it with the charge controller.
Quote:
No grid where he is installing. At least probably not in our life time.

I just heard on the radio that the first person to live to 1000 years old has already been born. I just hope that the next 940 years is better than the last few.....

Martyman - 6-3-2011 at 08:45 AM

I will be bringing the band on our next trip. You're system looks like it will power our Marshall stacks and the fog machine!

ps; i was just down, the place looks great! maybe we can eliminate the Camp Ghetto label soon.

woody with a view - 6-3-2011 at 08:52 AM

i thought i heard it was the first to live to 150? i guess i just got a new lease on life if it really is 1000 years!:rolleyes:

bkbend - 6-3-2011 at 10:17 AM

Good idea to do a dry run on the setup. I drew out what I wanted on a board similar to yours, with similar components but didn't put it together until I was doing it for real. It didn't come out exactly like I thought, #2 and 2/0 wire doesn't bend too well so I had to modify placement as I went along. I was happy I started with a 4' x 4' panel to work with.

jenny.navarrette - 6-3-2011 at 10:28 AM

OK, I looked up the schematic for the inverter. It has a 30-amp breaker on the AC output, so the 30amp breaker in the box is redundant. The good news is that your inverter has an internal power grid shut off circuit, so if you ever get power, you only need to hook up the grid feed to the inverter and it will keep your batteries charged and turn on the inverter if grid power fails.

The location of the 300amp fuse will not protect from a short at the battery terminals, but it will protect an internal short on teh DC side of the inverter. The AC power outlet you have wired with the light has to have a ground wire too. Everything on the AC side has to be wired with 3 wires, hot, neutral and ground.

Bob and Susan - 6-3-2011 at 05:38 PM

Santiago
i see one BIG mistake

you should run the power from the inverter thru a 30a breaker
then thru the 15a breakers

the way you have it set up you could fry your inverter by letting 45a run out of it

remember you need to protect the inverter at all costs

and

get rid of that perko-switch
just a fire starter ready to flame...

larryC - 6-3-2011 at 07:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob and Susan
Santiago
i see one BIG mistake

you should run the power from the inverter thru a 30a breaker
then thru the 15a breakers

the way you have it set up you could fry your inverter by letting 45a run out of it

remember you need to protect the inverter at all costs

and

get rid of that perko-switch
just a fire starter ready to flame...


bob
That is what he did, he ran the 30 amp as his main breaker and then through the 15's. As some one else pointed out, 30 amps is a little overill for a 1500 watt inverter, but it gives him some room to grow.
What do you have against battry switches? I've never had a problem with one.

Jenny
Almost all inverter/chargers have built in automatic transfer switches. In Jims case he will wire his generator into the AC "in" of his inverter and then when he starts his gen the inverter automatically swithes to a charger and lets excess power from the gen pass through to power his house.
Larry

Santiago - 6-3-2011 at 08:54 PM

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Bob: this is what I've done from an earlier posting: the black wire is from the inverter and goes to first breaker, a 30 amp. this makes one of the sides 120v and protected by the breaker. Then I tie the two hot lugs together with a #4 wire (the red one in the photo) so both sides are 120v and protected by the 30 amp. Also, and I suspect you'll like this even less, the disconnect switch is not a Perko - it's $9.99 from Harbor Freight. Rated at 500amp continuous and 1000 surge.

Maybe I should use a 20 amp in place of the 30amp as long as all I'm using in the 1500 watt inverter, surge at 2000 watt will never exceed 20 amps? Right? So a 20 amp 'main' will protect upstream and downstream elements. Right? If I ever upgrade, strike that, if I ever change to 3000 watts then I simply change to the 30 amp. right?
Also, if I ever need 3000 watts for a 3-or-4-times-a-year-shack-in-camp-gecko someone please shoot me.
This whole damn thing started because I like freshly ground beans in the morning, brewed properly, beer that is at the proper temperature in AUGUST when the Dometic just don't cut it, high quality 'merican-grade ice for the two or three fingers of Jack Daniels that's required about when the sun goes down and enough lighting in the bathroom so I don't kick my toe on the door jamb when the seemingly ever increasing-in-size prostrate requires the midnight two-step.

Note to Marty: in 1969, as an 18-year-old wanna-be, my buddy and I went to see Jimmie. The curtain rose to an empty stage, well, empty of people. There were three 6' Marshall stacks on each side of the drum set. On top of each stack was the red light of the amp. To the far right was the pre-amp. This being before all the foo-foo pedal crap. Mr Hendrix walked out, plugged in and proceeded to 'esplain to those of us unfortunate enough to be born in Bakersfield that, yes, the wind really does cry Mary. A few years later I went to see Michael Bloomfield on the same stage. He ran his licks thru a small Fender Studio amp, set up on a chair, miked thru the house PA system.
As both these gentlemen are long dead, far be it from me to say who was better. But today, I listen to far more Bloomfield than Hendrix.

You're more than welcome to bring the band over, but loose the fog machine. You're not a disco-revival band are you?

Bob and Susan - 6-4-2011 at 05:26 AM

in any electrical situation a perko switch IS NOT to code

any inspector can tell you that
a fire risk

he needs a proper circuit breaker to replace that

i think he wired the panel ok
the first breaker should be just under the max continues amps for the inverter

ex: mine is 33 amps
my breaker is 30 amps

protect the inverter at all costs
too $$$ and no inverter no electricty

larryC - 6-4-2011 at 06:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob and Susan
in any electrical situation a perko switch IS NOT to code

any inspector can tell you that
a fire risk

he needs a proper circuit breaker to replace that

i think he wired the panel ok
the first breaker should be just under the max continues amps for the inverter

ex: mine is 33 amps
my breaker is 30 amps

protect the inverter at all costs
too $$$ and no inverter no electricty


Not so sure that I agree those switches are not approved in any electrical situation. They are required by the coast guard. I had to have an annual inspection on my 20 passenger charter boat when I lived in San Diego, and they looked to be sure that I had approved disconnects on the main DC busses.
That being said, I do think Jim could have accoplished the same thing by using a 150 amp DC circuit breaker in place of the maxi fuse and battery switch. He might even have saved some money cause those maxi fuses and fuse mounts are expensive.
Larry

Santiago - 6-4-2011 at 08:57 AM

From the Inverter's manual which I have followed:
A/C output: #10 wire
Maximum Output Breaker Size: 30 amps.

Bob: if I follow what you are saying, my main fuse should be only 12 amps: 1500 continuous watts / 120v = 12.5amps. I have an in-line maxi fuse left over that I could wire into the positive 120v output and get a 12 amp fuse for that.
Obviously, from my photo, I am not an electrician. But let's say somewhere in my cabin wiring, the hot and neutral touch, a typical short. Won't the 15 amp circuit breaker trip, protecting the inverter? Or is the breaker too "slow blow" and while it's making up it's mind to trip or not, the inverter is cooking it's insides.
Without getting into the weeds too much here, in a typical grid system the breaker's job is to trip before the wire heats up and causes a fire; thus #14 requires a 15 amp and #12 a 20amp breaker. The breakers are not there to protect the grid as it is so big as to not be bothered by a puny short circuit in a house. But in our case, the grid is replaced by a much smaller producer of AC, the inverter and this must be protected at all costs.
If so, and I put a 12amp fuse between the inverter and the AC panel, then won't that blow before the circuit breaker trips? The circuit breakers would only serve as disconnects for the individual circuits.
Do I understand you correctly?

El Camote - 6-4-2011 at 09:33 AM

"Two SUN-SV-T-195 panels @ $ 347.10 each ($1.78/watt) $694.20

Two 6 volt golf cart from Sam's $173.60"

Maybe I missed something but isn't your panel to battery ratio a little heavy on the panel side?

Santiago - 6-4-2011 at 10:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by El Camote
"Two SUN-SV-T-195 panels @ $ 347.10 each ($1.78/watt) $694.20

Two 6 volt golf cart from Sam's $173.60"

Maybe I missed something but isn't your panel to battery ratio a little heavy on the panel side?

Yes.
However, I consider this better than the other way around.
Sunelectric minimum is two panels. I'm guessing that the two panels will throw off about 130 amps per day: 13.5amps each X 5 hours X two panels. Is this about right?
My plan is ass-backwards, sort of. When everything is wired, I will turn each light/appliance on, one-at-a-time and measure the amps being used via the TriMetric; plug those values into the design spreadsheet, estimating the hours/day of use and really know what the system should should have.
I will then put all this nonsense aside and go fishing.

El Camote - 6-4-2011 at 11:16 AM

You're right in that it's preferable to be heavy on panels over batteries but seems you'll be producing a lot of power you won't have the capacity to store. Since you've already sunk $2500. into the system, why not pop another $200 for a pair of batts. and double your capacity. As I understand, it's a big no-no to mix batts of different ages so better to add them now than down the line.

Wouldn't the panels be producing more like 160 amps during a 5 hour day?

My thoughts are more anecdotal than math based from past experience of owning a solar home, but we had 450 watts of panels tied to 4 pairs of the same type batts and only came up short on cloudy, winter days. If you have a genny back up, which we didn't, you should never have a problem.

You know your life will be much easier if SWMBO has enough juice to run her hair dryer and curling iron. :lol:

Bob and Susan - 6-4-2011 at 11:36 AM

dont trust the TriMetric
trash in trash out

it ONLY looks at voltage not battery condition

rule of thumb...one battery set for every 200w panel

too many panels an you'll boil to death the batteries
you NEED the correct balance

the bigger as in size the more water it holds and the longer it'll last compared to smaller units

lots of trojans failing here...those are batteries not the "other" trojans:spingrin:

Von - 6-4-2011 at 11:58 AM

Wow! nice!

Santiago - 6-4-2011 at 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by El Camote
You're right in that it's preferable to be heavy on panels over batteries but seems you'll be producing a lot of power you won't have the capacity to store. Since you've already sunk $2500. into the system, why not pop another $200 for a pair of batts. and double your capacity. As I understand, it's a big no-no to mix batts of different ages so better to add them now than down the line.


Exactly what I am planning on doing.
Quote:
You know your life will be much easier if SWMBO has enough juice to run her hair dryer and curling iron. :lol:


heh

larryC - 6-4-2011 at 04:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Santiago
Quote:
Originally posted by El Camote
"Two SUN-SV-T-195 panels @ $ 347.10 each ($1.78/watt) $694.20

Two 6 volt golf cart from Sam's $173.60"

Maybe I missed something but isn't your panel to battery ratio a little heavy on the panel side?

Yes.
However, I consider this better than the other way around.
Sunelectric minimum is two panels. I'm guessing that the two panels will throw off about 130 amps per day: 13.5amps each X 5 hours X two panels. Is this about right?
My plan is ass-backwards, sort of. When everything is wired, I will turn each light/appliance on, one-at-a-time and measure the amps being used via the TriMetric; plug those values into the design spreadsheet, estimating the hours/day of use and really know what the system should should have.
I will then put all this nonsense aside and go fishing.


actually his battery ratio to panels is pretty close to what Trojan recommends for their fla golf cart battereies. I know his are not Trojans, but I don't know who manufactures his. Golf cart batteries are pretty similar so this info is probably pretty close. Here is a cut and paste from the Trojan website:
http://www.trojanbattery.com/BatteryMaintenance/ChargerSelec...
Charger Selection

Most deep-cycle applications have some sort of charging system already installed for battery charging (e.g. solar panels, inverter, golf car charger, alternator, etc.). However, there are still systems with deep-cycle batteries where an individual charger must be selected. The following will help in making a proper selection.

There are many types of chargers available today. They are usually rated by their start rate, the rate in amperes that the charger will supply at the beginning of the charge cycle. When selecting a charger, the charge rate should be between 10% and 13% of the battery's 20-hour AH capacity. For example, a battery with a 20-hour capacity rating of 225 AH will use a charger rated between approximately 23 and 30 amps (for multiple battery charging use the AH rating of the entire bank). Chargers with lower ratings can be used but the charging time will be increased.

Trojan recommends using a 3-stage charger. Also called "automatic", "smart" or "IEI" chargers, these chargers prolong battery life with their well programmed charging profile. These chargers usually have three distinct charging stages: bulk, acceptance, and float.

You are right about water usage, but that is the nature of the beast, FLA batteries use water. If you are not going to be there to water them then maybe some one else can do it. beach Bob?
As far as the AC out fusing, the inverter has its own built in 30a fuse on the AC out, adding more is getting a little carried away.
I think your best plan is like you said, put the system you've got together, watch it work, which it will, and then go fishing.
Larry