BajaNomad

U. S. Federal Agents Admit Selling Guns to Drug Cartel was a Bad Idea

Gypsy Jan - 6-15-2011 at 06:30 AM

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-0615-gunrunner,0,732245.st...

motoged - 6-15-2011 at 11:00 AM

DUH !!!!

Woooosh - 6-15-2011 at 12:04 PM

Follow-up story today... "Fast and Furious a catastrophic disaster" ya think?

http://cspan.org/Events/Fast-and-Furious-a-Catastrophic-Disa...

bajatravelergeorge - 6-15-2011 at 07:05 PM

The higher ups who approved and gave the orders in this cluster**** should be arrested and brought up on murder charges. Thank you Darryl Issa for not letting this story die.

Amen

Gypsy Jan - 6-15-2011 at 07:26 PM

That is all.

Knowing the WHO ?

MrBillM - 6-16-2011 at 09:19 AM

From what I've seen of the hearing outtakes, there seems to be a great mystery among those involved regarding WHO at the top made the decisions.

"I don't Know" seemed to be the oft-repeated answer.

We KNOW that a BAD Idea is an Orphan, BUT this is a bit ridiculous.

There ARE records. Somewhere.

JoeJustJoe - 6-16-2011 at 11:04 AM

I did not read Jan's story because the link doesn't work, but I suspect it's the same story about " Fast and Furious " and how AFT agents allowed weapons to be purchased by straw buyers in the US and then the AFT agents stood by and just watch those weapons go into the hands of the Mexican drug cartels.

Well the top US government official probably thought what's another few dead Mexicans? They probably thought at the time it was more important to follow the trail and in the long run they could get at the root of the problem and perhaps stem the flow of weapons into the drug cartels hands.

One thing these anti-AFT stories leave out is the fact most of these weapons are being purchased in the US by straw buyers and then simply shipped over the Mexican border and into the hands of the drug cartels.

There are many gun-crazy ultra conservatives even right here on the "NOMAD" forum that repeat the NRA mantra that the US isn't responsible for supplying the mass majority of assault type weapons into Mexico. We hear estimates between 70 and 90 percent, yet the gun-crazy crowd will tell you it's not true.

The fact is it's pretty obvious that the gun shops along the Mexican border are supplying the weapons to the drug cartels, and the USA is supplying the fuel( cash) to the cartels because so many Americans in the US have an insatiable appetite for drugs.

Instead of blaming Obama and the AFT for operation " Fast and Furious.' We should instead have our focus on cracking down on these gun shops who knowingly supply the Mexican drug cartels. We should also stop the gun loopholes that allows virtually anyone to buy weapons at gun shows without a background check, and most of all we should outlaw and ban the sale and use of assault weapons of any kind.

There is no legitimate use for assault type weapons other than hunting and killing people.

DENNIS - 6-16-2011 at 11:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
There is no legitimate use for assault type weapons other than hunting and killing people.


Well....of course. You wouldn't want to shoot Bambi with one, would you?

jenny.navarrette - 6-16-2011 at 11:56 AM

It just occurred to me that I have a fine set of Swiss steak knives in my kitchen. I could just pick one up, stab Joe in the heart with it and then blame it on the Swiss.

The only thing Mexico has to do with all the killings is that it produces the people who have the hands that pick up the guns, aim them and and pull the trigger.

Who could possibly blame them?
:rolleyes:

DENNIS - 6-16-2011 at 12:02 PM

There's a special knife for Swiss Steak?? :O

mtgoat666 - 6-16-2011 at 12:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
There is no legitimate use for assault type weapons other than hunting and killing people.


using assault weapon for hunting is not legitimate.

wessongroup - 6-16-2011 at 12:11 PM

Well now... don't think I would want a weapon that couldn't kill ... as for not being used for hunting... in the late 70's was working for the State of CA ... helping farmers who had been granted "entry" into the United States... they were from South Vietnam ...

Only problem.. they brought their hunting techniques develop in their home land... was with Fish and Game onefsu ... when we came up on a clearing, with about 30 deer in a pile.. they had been shot and/or killed with AK47 and machine guns...

They worked for the montagnard.. just fine... however, they were not allowed to "harvest" wildlife in this manner... they couldn't understand what difference it made ... a bow and arrow, or an AK47 ... or an ax... killing was killing...

Guns Don't Kill People. People Kill People

Bajahowodd - 6-16-2011 at 04:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jenny.navarrette
It just occurred to me that I have a fine set of Swiss steak knives in my kitchen. I could just pick one up, stab Joe in the heart with it and then blame it on the Swiss.

The only thing Mexico has to do with all the killings is that it produces the people who have the hands that pick up the guns, aim them and and pull the trigger.

Who could possibly blame them?
:rolleyes:



Ha! A myth created by and constantly hammered into the American public by the NRA. And yet, the NRA is probably nothing more than a more benign appearing mouthpiece for the US arms industry. The war industry.

Although it's not likely that any news organization will launch a true investigative assault, the fact is that the US war machine includes manufacturers of hand guns, ammo and all those thing held dearly by the gun crowd.

Just seems to me that given the current unstable situation around the world, the war industry is ready to profit by arming everyone, good or bad players. Just have to wonder what they think they will do with their obscene multi-billion dollar profits after the earth is annihilated.

"By W.J. Hennigan, Los Angeles Times

June 15, 2011, 8:55 p.m.
With the Pentagon's appetite for new weapons shrinking, U.S. arms makers are finding lucrative markets overseas as demand for American-made weaponry hits an all-time high.

Despite intense international competition, U.S. arms manufacturers are expected to sell a record $46.1 billion in military hardware to foreign governments in 2011, a nearly 50% jump from $31.6 billion last year.


The boom is drawing fire from arms-control advocates, who worry that weapons are going to volatile regions of the world and could end up in the wrong hands.

Pentagon officials defend the sales, saying they are carefully regulated by the U.S. State and Defense departments to protect national security and are key tools in maintaining good ties with U.S. allies.

"As a country continues to strengthen its ability to defend its borders, to protect itself and, potentially, to operate with partners in the region or with the U.S. — all of that strengthens the U.S. from a security perspective," Navy Vice Adm. William E. Landay III, who oversees foreign military sales, told reporters last week.

India signed a deal Wednesday for the purchase of 10 Boeing C-17 military cargo jets that will be built in Long Beach, highlighting the growing number of multimillion- and billion-dollar sales to foreign governments around the world.

The largest-ever U.S. foreign arms deal was announced last October, when Saudi Arabia ordered $60 billion in military hardware in a multiyear pact. The Saudis' laundry list of weaponry included Raytheon Co.'s 2,000-pound bunker-busting bombs, Boeing's F-15 fighter jets and Sikorsky Aircraft Corp.'s Black Hawk helicopters.

More deals are in the works. Australia wants two dozen Navy Seahawk helicopters valued at $1.6 billion. Saudi Arabia is eager to get $330 million in thermal-imaging and night-vision equipment. And Britain is looking to purchase $137 million in upgrades for its U.S.-made ship-mounted guns. Orders are also in from Morocco, Iraq and the United Arab Emirates.

Egypt is one of the largest customers for U.S. arms. But questions about its purchases were raised by critics in recent months when a column of American-made Abrams tanks rolled into Tahrir Square as protesters rallied against President Hosni Mubarak's regime. And both Bahrain and Tunisia bought U.S.-manufactured guns before their security forces fired on protesting crowds this spring.

Jeff Abramson, deputy director of the Arms Control Assn. in Washington, points out that the U.S. loses control of a weapons system once a sale is made.

"Who knows what will happen there and whether to sell arms to the region was wise?" he said. "We've made decisions in the past that don't look so good today."

At the same time, the sales spell jobs and corporate profits in the United States. These multibillion-dollar purchases translate into years of work for thousands of highly skilled manufacturing workers and keep weapons production lines humming at a time when unemployment runs at 11.9% in California.

Before India's order for 10 planes, Boeing's C-17 assembly line in Long Beach was expected to shut down at the end of next year. Last week, Boeing delivered a second C-17 to the United Arab Emirates Air Force.

Workers in Long Beach will be busy mainly filling foreign orders through 2014. The sales are also good for small Southland machine shops that supply parts.

Long Beach isn't alone in benefiting from exports. Orders from South Korea, Singapore and Saudi Arabia saved the production line of Boeing's F-15 fighter jet in St. Louis.

Chicago-based Boeing's pricey military and civilian airplanes together make the company the nation's largest exporter overall. Its military sales are "a business segment that once was perceived as icing on the cake," said Mark Kronenberg, Boeing's vice president of international business development. "Now it's essential."

Foreign sales currently make up 18% of Boeing defense sales, compared with 7% six years ago, he said. The company's defense unit has a goal of making overseas sales hit 25% within the next five years. It also plans to beef up its international sales team to 100 by the end of the year. In 2005, it numbered just 10.

Boeing booked $6 billion in foreign military sales last year, compared with $7 billion for Lockheed Martin Corp. Century City-based Northrop Grumman Corp. reported nearly $2 billion.

Since the Sept. 11 attacks, the Pentagon budget has more than doubled, to $729 billion. But now after one of the biggest military buildups in decades and amid growing concern about the federal budget deficit, defense companies are bracing for a long stretch of cuts in purchases by the U.S. government.

"Every defense contractor is looking at the international market and saying they need to be more aggressive," Kronenberg said. "We spend hours in countries talking with everybody from military officers all the way to top leadership to see what their needs are."

Outgoing Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said last week that allies in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization need to spend more on defense, including weaponry. "This is no longer a hypothetical worry," he said. "We are there today. And it is unacceptable."

Close U.S. allies get money to help pay for the military equipment they buy. For example, Israel received an estimated $2.78 billion in U.S. aid to purchase arms. Other countries, such as Iran and China, cannot buy U.S. military hardware. Pakistan, India and Indonesia were once on that blacklist but have since been taken off. Before that, the countries purchased more arms from Russia and other European countries.

Although U.S. military technology is widely viewed as cream of the crop, it does not always win lucrative contracts overseas. In April, India announced its short list of bidders for about $10 billion in fighter jets, which bypassed American firms in favor of European ones.

France makes sought-after fighter jets. Britain is a leading tank builder, and Russia's airplanes, cargo carriers, missiles and bombs have long been tough competition worldwide.

At next week's Paris Air Show, one of the largest aerospace showcases, arms makers worldwide will compete to win some of the biggest foreign military deals.

The Obama administration has embarked on an initiative to reform export control that will roll back many of the restrictions on the way weapons are sold to foreign countries. Northrop, which specializes in systems such as drones and cyber security, is supporting the change, saying it will help U.S. companies win contracts.

"We have been so focused on protecting our technological edge that we have actually done severe and unnecessary damage to our defense industrial base," Northrop Chief Executive Wesley G. Bush said at a recent conference in London.

"To the credit of President Obama's administration," he said, "the U.S. has finally started serious attempts to reform the laws and regulations governing our export control."

william.hennigan@latimes.com

Copyright © 2011, Los Angeles Times"

There's a Problem ?

MrBillM - 6-16-2011 at 08:36 PM

The Arms industry is highly competitive and there's a constant Worldwide demand with people determined to kill each other for a variety of Legitimate reasons. OK, some illegitimate ones, too, but that's just human nature.

In Rwanda and places like that, they use (for mostly economical and/or recreational reasons) Machetes. What kind of a Death is that ? I'm sure most people would prefer a Bullet to being hacked to pieces. Let's give as much of humanity that chance as possible.

U.S. Manufacturers make money selling arms abroad, help out OUR economy and Foreigners die. There are a LOT of extra foreigners.

Sounds like Win-Win-Win. We prosper, THEY pay.

BTW, IF Jenny should succumb to the touch of Evil and end up stabbing Joe to a mangled Bloody Pulp with a Swiss (or even Ginsu ?) Steak Knife, I'll be happy to testify as a Character witness and contribute to the Legal Defense Fund. I can't think of a more worthy cause.

bajatravelergeorge - 6-16-2011 at 08:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
There's a special knife for Swiss Steak?? :O


Come on folks, that was funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cisco - 6-16-2011 at 09:00 PM

Dennis. Did you ever have an opportunity to see the short film "Bambi meets Godzilla"?

Oh, as an aside to this thread and the American arms manufacturers I read that the weapons of choice for the "secret" team that killed Bin Laden was the German made HK-14.

DENNIS - 6-16-2011 at 09:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cisco
Dennis. Did you ever have an opportunity to see the short film "Bambi meets Godzilla"?



Nope. Missed that one, but I look it up. Thanks. :light:

DENNIS - 6-16-2011 at 09:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajatravelergeorge
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
There's a special knife for Swiss Steak?? :O


Come on folks, that was funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Casting pearls before Nomads can be unappreciated at times, George. Goes with the territory. :biggrin: