BajaNomad

When Mexican tourists are killed in Acapulco, does that hurt Baja tourism?

Woooosh - 7-17-2011 at 02:23 PM

Does it? Why would it? Does Mexico think it's internal tourists don't count? Will the Mexican tourists afraid of Acapulco now come to Baja? Will Mexicans go swimming in the water with people shooting at them?

"Two Mexican tourists die in Acapulco gun attack

(AP) ACAPULCO, Mexico — Authorities in Acapulco say two Mexican tourists have been killed in a gun attack at a restaurant on the main oceanfront avenue in the tourist zone of the Pacific resort. Two other people are wounded.

State police say an undetermined number of attackers fired assault rifles and 9-mm pistols early Saturday into El Zorrito. That's a traditional Mexican restaurant on the city's main Miguel Aleman boulevard.

The attack came a day after a gunman standing near the shoreline avenue fired at swimmers in the bay, scattering panicked vacationers across the beach. Authorities say he fired at least 10 shots.

A 38-year-old woman visiting from Mexico City was wounded in the right leg and taken to a hospital.

Police say the gunmen escaped."

Long link: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/17/ap/latinamerica/ma...

rts551 - 7-17-2011 at 02:26 PM

I think some one said it earlier. There are some who will come to Baja and others who will not. Some for economic reasons, and some because of the violence. I don't think there is a lot of disagreement about how tourism has dropped off though.

DENNIS - 7-17-2011 at 02:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
I don't think there is a lot of disagreement about how tourism has dropped off though.


True....for sure. It has dropped off although It seems to be turning around. Out here in PB, the tourist traffic is heavier than we've seen it in years. You can almost see the look of relief in the faces of the merchants. I hate crowds and traffic, but this feels good.

Hook - 7-17-2011 at 02:52 PM

Our town is packed over here but it is all Mexican nationals on vacation. Very few gringos. What's the makeup of those PB tourists, Dennis.

Woooosh - 7-17-2011 at 03:00 PM

The Papas & Beer anniversary party has Rosarito Beach hopping this weekend too. I have a Papas & Beer doorman friend who said the US/Mexican mix was about even. That Club used to market to the US kids only- so their reaching out to Mexican tourists lately has kept them alive, imho. People at intersections passing out fliers for next weekend's event "Mexicali en la Playa" (last year Pit Bull "Peeeet Booouul" headlined). Baja could market itself to Mexico City and Monterrey, not just the USA because it is closer. We have a friend flying in from Monterrey next month with a 2000 peso round-trip fare on Volaris ($180USD)

sancho - 7-17-2011 at 03:08 PM

I would say when any measure of tourism in Mex
is PRIMARILY gauged by fly in tourists, either US/Canada
or other countries, Europeans being a large %.
I think US West coast tourists can distinguish between
Cabo and Acapulco, not so sure that a US Minnesota
tourist to Mex can. I wonder how much $ is spent,
say per day, on a tourist who drives into Mex as
a tourist who fly's down for vacation? I assume
quite a difference. I'm about 70 no of TJ, I would say
a full 95% of people I know will not drive down,
and these are people who previously would go to
Rosarito/Ensenada regurarly

DENNIS - 7-17-2011 at 03:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
Our town is packed over here but it is all Mexican nationals on vacation. Very few gringos. What's the makeup of those PB tourists, Dennis.


We always get a lot of action from Mexicali, Hook. The heat drives them over here. In the last few years, it seems like all we saw was Baja plates, but now we're seeing many more from California and some from Arizona. Maybe a 30 US-70 Mex mix would be a good guess.
Things is lookin' up...for certain.

JoeJustJoe - 7-17-2011 at 03:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
I think some one said it earlier. There are some who will come to Baja and others who will not. Some for economic reasons, and some because of the violence. I don't think there is a lot of disagreement about how tourism has dropped off though.


True but there are some "alarmists" and their ilk that don't want people to make up their own mind if Mexico is too dangerous or for themselves and their family.

So the "alarmists" decide to make up your mind for you by continuing posting stories about Mexican violence in areas of Mexico that are far away from the places you want to visit, and in fact you have no plans to visit anytime soon.

The fact is Baja and Acapulco are nowhere near each other, but I guess there aren't local news stories of killings in Baja this week, and so the "alarmists" will grab any violent news story that happened anywhere in the country of Mexico in order to keep up the perception that Mexico is in a war zone, and Americans who are stupid enough to visit Mexico are in grave danger of getting killed, kidnapped, robbed, or hurt.

The "alarmists" act on the false belief that Americans don't really know how dangerous Mexico really is. However, for years now news outlets like "Fox News" and even "SignsOnSanDiego" had plenty of stories on the Mexico drug cartels activities including some of their very violent way, and the news media outlets also covered kidnappings and multiple killings in a very sensationalized way. What they don't seem cover are the smaller crimes that you often see in your local papers crime blotters that would have only local interest.

But the "alarmists" continue claiming there is a news blackout about what's really is going on in Mexico with the violence, and the "alarmists" see it as their duty to warn other Americans to the ugly truth about Mexico's violence.

The "alarmists" goal is too keep you away from Mexico, and often they get extremely upset if you don't heed their advice.

Woooosh - 7-17-2011 at 03:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
I think some one said it earlier. There are some who will come to Baja and others who will not. Some for economic reasons, and some because of the violence. I don't think there is a lot of disagreement about how tourism has dropped off though.


The "alarmists" goal is too keep you away from Mexico, and often they get extremely upset if you don't heed their advice.

I think most Nomads would like for more people to stay away actually- so they can have more of Baja to themselves.

[Edited on 7-17-2011 by Woooosh]

Skipjack Joe - 7-17-2011 at 03:22 PM

Yes it does hurt baja tourism.

Most tourists don't distinguish Mexican violence by region. If there is violence in Mexico the entire country is treated with suspicion by the vast majority of tourists. Only veteran tourists know the difference. The others don't care about such 'nuances' and are frequently suspicious of arguments to the contrary.

DENNIS - 7-17-2011 at 03:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
the "alarmists" see it as their duty to warn other Americans to the ugly truth about Mexico's violence.



Seems like a good thing to me, Joe. If something happens, I want to know about it.
There are three "used to be" desirable destinations that I wouldn't travel to these days due to the excessive, life-threatening crime, Puerto Vallarta...Mazatlán...and Acapulco. Why would I bother to go there if it's dangerous to leave the hotel?
Without news, I wouldn't even be aware of this because, sure as hell, Mexico won't mention it.

Sooo, Joe....I'm a big fan of the news agencies that keep me informed, but I will say this......when and if they ever start lying to me about these events, I would like to know about it. I'll count on you to tell me when I'm being deceived.

rts551 - 7-17-2011 at 03:47 PM

joe. give me a break , joe.

There are two sides. I live in Baja and am very aware of the dangers in lets say TJ or Mexicali...or other large cities in Baja. The dangers do exist so lets not paint too rosey a picture for the novice traveler.

Some will go and some will not....there are two sides to the story

sancho - 7-17-2011 at 03:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS





There are three "used to be" desirable destinations that I wouldn't travel to these days due to the excessive, life-threatening crime, Puerto Vallarta...Mazatlán...and Acapulco. ould I bother to go there if it's dangerous to leave the hotel?








I'm with you on that, I like to get all the news, good/bad,
and make a judgement, but personally I would not list
P Vallarta in the mix of Mex resort areas with excessive
crime, possibly the State of Jalisco that Vallarta is in,
but I don't see where PV would make the list of
dangerous places

Bajahowodd - 7-17-2011 at 04:00 PM

Just a few observations from a very tortured mind:

Casual tourism, as was pictured as the fly-in variety, has taken a major hit as perhaps the majority of folks look at Mexico as a single destination. Of course, the argument that not visiting New York because there is a serial killer on the loose in Miami, is specious.

Then, given what appears to be an increase in domestic tourism by Mexicans, does help make up for the loss of foreign money. In the case of Acapulco, it has long become a domestic destination, and has seem fewer and fewer foreign tourists for the last two decades.

Mazatlan, for me, never held an attraction. Of the many tourist destinations in Mexico that I have visited, it would probably rank at the bottom of my list. And yet, it appears that the crime in Mazatlan, at least as reported by the foreign press, is not cartel related, but rather street crime directed at tourists, thereby causing several cruise operators to remove Mazatlan fom their itineraries.

As I have relatives who live in Mismaloya, I am somewhat stumped that Dennis included PV on his list of rogue destinations, inasmuch as what has been reported to me, is mostly business as usual there.

As for the above-reference El Zorrito, It is a somewhat shabby taqueria sporting plastic furniture that never made me think it was a tourist oriented place.

DENNIS - 7-17-2011 at 04:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
As I have relatives who live in Mismaloya, I am somewhat stumped that Dennis included PV on his list of rogue destinations, inasmuch as what has been reported to me, is mostly business as usual there.



I don't feel like doing the research right now, but the place has been hot as hell lately. Didn't some of the cruise ships bail out of PV just recently?

tiotomasbcs - 7-17-2011 at 04:35 PM

Bad stories stay around longer--weren't there Cartel shootings in Discos down in PV. Let me guess? Favorite of Hideaway Cartel Jefes/ !! Down here, word is Cabo/ La Paz is Tranquil?? / protected Mainland Mexican businessmen are supposed to be moving family here as it is safe/ more safe?:O El Teo thot so>:no: Tio

Woooosh - 7-17-2011 at 05:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tiotomasbcs
Down here, word is Cabo/ La Paz is Tranquil?? / protected Mainland Mexican businessmen are supposed to be moving family here as it is safe/ more safe?


That's what I am interested in, an "apparent" internal migration of Mexicans from the Mainland to Baja in search of safety. I was only thinking of tourism until your posts. Thanks Tio.

rts551 - 7-17-2011 at 06:35 PM

How quickly we forget sometimes...



The week in Mexico

November 23, 2008

El Rosario shooting: Baja California's violence reached down to El Rosario, south of San Quintin. A shooting last weekend killed three people in the small La Mijita restaurant; the proprietor, Elsa Aguilar Gerardo, 43, was mortally wounded in a hail of bullets and died in a Tijuana hospital.


And....who was responsible? and could any of you been in the cafe?

Don't Worry - Be Happy !

MrBillM - 7-17-2011 at 06:50 PM

None of it really matters.

Tourism Up - Tourism Down. Businesses boom or close.

No problema.

For those of us not making any money off the trade.

Que sera sera as Doris said.

Do your own thing and, if you stop a bullet or lose your head, that's life. The odds are on your side and, besides, nobody lives forever. For many, everything worth doing has been done and the rest is just a slide downhill.

Caveat Emptor, Carpe Diem and all that.

Live La Bella Vida as Casey would say.

Much of it matters to me.

mcfez - 7-17-2011 at 08:02 PM

It's a sad thing read all about the drug war in Mexico. Many bystanders of this nightmare has been hurt. From innocent life that got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time...to the merchants and all related business to that merchant.... lost jobs and lost dreams of many Mexican citizens.

Yes...it should matter to me, and it should matter to you (the reader here)...for we live, play and eat in this wonderful country.

Having said that....


I believe that tourist that are thinking about heading to Baja....is indeed affected by the negative mainland news accounts...whether the stories are true or not... that to them, Baja "is Mexico". ...so to speak. Many do not go.....waiting for the "war" to cease.

My two cents.

DENNIS - 7-17-2011 at 08:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mcfez
...whether the stories are true or not...



I've never heard anyone deny them, Deno.

JoeJustJoe - 7-18-2011 at 02:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
How quickly we forget sometimes...



The week in Mexico

November 23, 2008

El Rosario shooting: Baja California's violence reached down to El Rosario, south of San Quintin. A shooting last weekend killed three people in the small La Mijita restaurant; the proprietor, Elsa Aguilar Gerardo, 43, was mortally wounded in a hail of bullets and died in a Tijuana hospital.


And....who was responsible? and could any of you been in the cafe?


From time to time we still hear about "Mafia" hits in places like New York city, and at one time "hits" were fairly common, but nowadays you don't hear too much about the "Mafia" although organized crime does exist, and the "Mafia" is still around. Just look at the article below a acting crime boss was just convicted of murder, racketeering, conspiracy and other charges only a couple of months ago.

However, I don't recall at any time in the present or the last couple of decades anybody warned about the dangers of visiting New York restaurants especially Italian restaurants because there was just a shooting in a restaurant and the tourists could be next.

Those types of warning never occur with violent large cities like New York City. Now to be fair there use to be lots of warning about the subways in New York late at night. And I got to tell you. I"m a lot more scared of hopping on a subway in New York than walking the streets on Mexico! I'll take Mexico anytime of the week than jumping on a NYC subway late at night, although New York is a lot more safer than it use to be.

But I don't recall anybody yelling warnings to stay away from NYC because of the violence and the muggings of the past or present. What you certainly never heard was to stay away places as far away as Phoenix, Arizona because there were a few violent incidents in NYC, yet this is what happens all the time when Americans are talking about certain destinations in Mexico. For examples you'll here about a killings in Tijuana, and the "alarmist' types will warn you about keeping away from Mexican cities like Cancun because of a few violence incidents that happened over 1000 miles away in the border city of Tijuana.


A Mafia hit story:
_______________________________________________
Acting crime boss convicted in NYC gangland hit
(philstar.com) Updated May 17, 2011

NEW YORK (AP) - A tough-talking New York City mobster who's already serving a life sentence for attempted murder was convicted Monday in a death penalty case accusing him of ordering a gangland killing to cement his rise to power in the Bonanno organized crime family.

read the rest here:

http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=686990&pu...

[Edited on 7-18-2011 by JoeJustJoe]

Woooosh - 7-18-2011 at 08:32 AM

So when the US press reports crime in New York City, tourism to NYC is not impacted. But when the US press reports crime in Mexico, tourism to all points in Mexico is severely impacted. Why is that? Could it be people trust the press in the USA to tell them what crimes are taking place in the USA and they accept that risk- whereas they don't believe the crime reported in Mexico is the "whole story" upon which to base risk?

[Edited on 7-18-2011 by Woooosh]

mcfez - 7-18-2011 at 08:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by mcfez
...whether the stories are true or not...



I've never heard anyone deny them, Deno.


Ya ya DENNIS...I shot myself in the foot here. My inner thinking was really "whether the stories are true or not concerning the stuff over in the areas of Pakistan". Just call it a brain malfunction. Stunning to happen :lol:

To clarify....the accounts coming out of Mexico is correcto

Txs for keeping me in check. Deno

[Edited on 7-18-2011 by mcfez]

wessongroup - 7-18-2011 at 08:50 AM

Thanks Woooosh.. a good point on the issue... as it relates to "media" on ones actions..

However, don't think we will be taking any vacation to Pakistan ... just saying..

Would love to go... as it has some really beautiful country ... and the old "silk road" which would appear to still have a great deal of "value" as it always has...

Check this place out and choose Pakistan's flag .. one fella had some really great pictures of his country... http://www.pbase.com/world

Had hoped upon retirement to be able to travel to all these places... however things change... so I look... at everything ... but thank God for computers and that others share.. I have enjoyed a lot which I did not get to "go"to and physically see...

Was always an outdoors guy... worked and played outside most of my life.. and miss it very much...

Have fun... I do ... :biggrin::biggrin: hope you enjoy some of the pictures and maybe make some friends... I have ... in various countries.. folks are great ... most folks love to share their country with others...

[Edited on 7-18-2011 by wessongroup]:):)

[Edited on 7-18-2011 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 7-18-2011 by wessongroup]

BajaGringo - 7-18-2011 at 09:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
So when the US press reports crime in New York City, tourism to NYC is not impacted. But when the US press reports crime in Mexico, tourism to all points in Mexico is severely impacted. Why is that?


I think it has a lot to do with the fact that people feel more vulnerable when traveling to an area where they don't speak the local language, understand the culture and generally feel like outsiders looking in. Add increased reports of crime and that becomes their tipping point to just avoid Mexico all together for many.

News reports of crime in NYC just make people change the way / times they move around town IMHO...

JoeJustJoe - 7-18-2011 at 11:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
So when the US press reports crime in New York City, tourism to NYC is not impacted. But when the US press reports crime in Mexico, tourism to all points in Mexico is severely impacted. Why is that? Could it be people trust the press in the USA to tell them what crimes are taking place in the USA and they accept that risk- whereas they don't believe the crime reported in Mexico is the "whole story" upon which to base risk?

[Edited on 7-18-2011 by Woooosh]


No Woooosh the casual tourists usually aren't paranoid delusional types that believe there is a news blackout on the real stories in Mexico about the drug cartels and non stop violence. It's only the paranoid types that believe some sort of conspiracy is going on involving both governments, tourist boards, media sources, and of course Sandra Dibble of the SDUT and other reporters who are supposedly under orders to impose a news blackout on really what's occurring in Mexico.

The casual tourist believe the media reports about Mexico and already seen enough stories about the Mexican drug cartels, kidnappers, and very violent cartel on cartel shootings in some places in Mexico.

The thing about the casual tourist is they don't know the details where exactly these violent events are occurring and they are not that familiar with Mexico and so the ones who are scared off from visiting Mexico believe all of Mexico is dangerous, and they believe all of Mexico is a war zone, because of the constant negative stories they were receiving the last few years.

Now if there are any violent news stories about New York city the people in the USA are more familiar with New York and probably been there a few times, and maybe grew up around the area. The American tourist traveling to New York know how to put the gangland shootings stories in perceptive and know their percentage of getting mixed up even as a witness in a gangland shooting is very low but they do keep their eyes open when traveling on the subways late at night.

The good thing is not all of the American tourist have been scared off from vacationing in Mexico. The planes are still filled with American Tourist flying to Mexican resorts, and that's a good thing, because Mexico is very safe for the causal tourist visiting Mexico for a one week vacation.

Woooosh - 7-18-2011 at 11:39 AM

I think BajaGringo was onto something with the language barrier. It probably doesn't help that Mexicans are now in every city in the USA and many Americans figure there is a reason why they all left Mexico. I'm sure the Mexican expats are badmouthing the security situation in Mexico left and right at their places of work too- which also gives a negative perception of Mexico to Americans. It's a straight -from-the-horses-mouth thing. It all adds up. Where there is smoke, there is fire.

wessongroup - 7-18-2011 at 12:01 PM

When's the last time ya heard of 20 or so "tourists" kidnapped and executed.. in the States.

When's the last time ya heard and saw 6 guys laying by a fountain in downtown with their head's cut off next to them... in the States

When is the last time ya saw a body, with the head cut off ... hanging from the 405.. or the 5 or the... _________ in the States

When the last time ya saw a mass grave of over 150 people executed and buried in the Untied States...

When is the last time ya saw multiple DA's executed in the States...

When is the last time ya saw the incoming Head of the County's Sheriff Department ... being executed in broad day light ... that one I heard then saw... in Rosarito ... while having my car worked on... about 125 yards from where I was sitting...

Not saying don't go... but don't p*ss down my neck and tell me it's raining...

Roberto - 7-18-2011 at 12:46 PM

I would say yes. The kind of people who are going to stay away because of this kind of news won't differentiate.

elgatoloco - 7-18-2011 at 01:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
I would say yes. The kind of people who are going to stay away because of this kind of news won't differentiate.


That's been my experience. I do not try to convince someone we know with reservations about the 'security' situation to travel down themselves but I always volunteer to take them myself.:saint:

JoeJustJoe - 7-18-2011 at 01:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
I think BajaGringo was onto something with the language barrier. It probably doesn't help that Mexicans are now in every city in the USA and many Americans figure there is a reason why they all left Mexico. I'm sure the Mexican expats are badmouthing the security situation in Mexico left and right at their places of work too- which also gives a negative perception of Mexico to Americans. It's a straight -from-the-horses-mouth thing. It all adds up. Where there is smoke, there is fire.


I have yet to hear other American claim Mexicans are coming to the USA because of drug cartel violence. Those types of stories are fairly new and foreigners are smart to play the "danger" card in their home country when they are trying to gain permanent residence in the USA. It plays very well to claim where you live is a war zone, and if you continue to live there you'll very life is at risk! ( say anything that will work seems to be the motto)

Another way to use the scary stories to your advantage is do what that African maid who accused the IMF chief DSK of sexual assault. On the African maid's "asylum application" she claimed she was gang raped in her home country and she couldn't go back! ( she later admitted that story was false) Of course the federal officials that have to read these stories all day get bored, and nothing wakes them up better than to hear about rape fantasy and they are more likely to grant the asylum after hearing a good story.

So I hope more Mexican immigrants take advantage of the drug cartel violence stories in the news to gain entrance to the USA, and a job. But how much truth to their stories on "Asylum applications" is always going to be dubious at best.

But I think it's ridiculous to believe Mexicans are trying to immigrate to the USA because they fear drug cartel violence back home in Mexico. We got somewhere between 12 and 25 million Mexicans in the USA, and most of them are here for jobs, and only a handful for "asylum" from the drug cartels.

I think what Mexican immigrants fear is starvation and they come to the USA for well paying jobs, or rather well paying if you compare the pay they could earn here to what they could make in Mexico.

The reasons why Mexicans are almost in every state in the USA is because of jobs, jobs, jobs. Of course for the xenophobes, it's all about job stealing and xenophobia.

JoeJustJoe - 7-18-2011 at 01:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
When's the last time ya heard of 20 or so "tourists" kidnapped and executed.. in the States.

When's the last time ya heard and saw 6 guys laying by a fountain in downtown with their head's cut off next to them... in the States

When is the last time ya saw a body, with the head cut off ... hanging from the 405.. or the 5 or the... _________ in the States

When the last time ya saw a mass grave of over 150 people executed and buried in the Untied States...

When is the last time ya saw multiple DA's executed in the States...

When is the last time ya saw the incoming Head of the County's Sheriff Department ... being executed in broad day light ... that one I heard then saw... in Rosarito ... while having my car worked on... about 125 yards from where I was sitting...

Not saying don't go... but don't p*ss down my neck and tell me it's raining...


Where have you been Wesson? Gov Jan Brewer said there were headless bodies in the Arizona desert!

A lot of time politicians and xenophobic haters will use divisive issues like Mexican immigration and Mexican drug cartel violence as wedge issues to get elected on border states especially in places like Arizona have have a sizable population that fears immigrants or people who aren't like them the most.

So what these types of haters and their ilk do is play up the violent newspaper articles in the media to keep it in the spotlight, and the newspapers try to write things in their papers that will keep their readers keep buying their papers.


Later Gov Jan Brewer claimed almost all Mexican undocumented Aliens were drug mules! Shame on Gov Jan Brewer.
-----------

I understand Wesson that you are just afraid to go to Mexico even though you have a Mexican-American wife who could hold your hand.

Woooosh - 7-18-2011 at 01:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup... don't think we will be taking any vacation to Pakistan ... just saying..
Would love to go... as it has some really beautiful country ... and the old "silk road" which would appear to still have a great deal of "value" as it always has...


I feel the same way about visiting the Holy Land. Would love to go back to Israel. Same thing about violence, media, perception... only they have the religious overtones.

Woooosh - 7-18-2011 at 02:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoeI have yet to hear other American claim Mexicans are coming to the USA because of drug cartel violence.


I was meaning that they won't go back home, not even for Christmas like they always used to. It used to be a pilgramage of sorts.

wessongroup - 7-18-2011 at 02:04 PM

Don't know about AZ.. but, do know about Mexico ... is it your position that no headless bodies are have been found in Mexico.. is it also your position that none of the examples I posted have occurred?

My post had nothing to do with immigration, .. and you talk about highjacking... :lol::lol::lol:

The post only dealt with reported "events" by the Mexican Press, and personal experience (oh, thats right you don't care for that) ... of terrible carnage which is occurring in Mexico whether you wish to acknowledge...

On the Mexican press, which has the unique distinction of being the most dangerous place to be a reporter ... they have a higher mortality rate than those in: Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan...

Now isn't that is a claim to fame.. HUH !!!

Thank God for the bravery, honesty and dedication of true reporters of Mexico's News.. they are a brave lot in my view... along with those that become Mayors of town's for a week or two before they are killed, or their families are set upon by those that would do harm.. to get their way...

You should practice what you preach... just saying... :lol::lol:

By the way they® kill priests too... and it's not for messing with children .... that should give ya a clue...

And for the wife, I took her to Baja.. the farthest down she had been was TJ (where her family came from) ... farthest we got was south of San Antonio a few miles along the cost in a VW bus... in about 1969 .... camping out .. the two of us... did have a fear at all... in all my times down.. ever...

As I've stated my Dad started taking us kids down around 1950, when I was 8 years old.. didn't mind Mexican then and certainly don't mind them now...

By the way, our Ford Bronco is called "Brownie" my wife came up with the name... OH MY !!!







[Edited on 7-18-2011 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 7-18-2011 by wessongroup]

DENNIS - 7-18-2011 at 02:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
I have yet to hear other American claim Mexicans are coming to the USA because of drug cartel violence.


Many do. They escape the threat of kidnapping. You'll have to ask the Presidente de Tijuana why he lives in La Jolla, California.
Lots of wealthy Mexicans are NOB for the same reason...safety.
Kind of blows a hole in all the nonsense from the critics here that say the US is as dangerous as Mexico.

Ask a Mexican.

wessongroup - 7-18-2011 at 02:16 PM

Ditto's... Dennis

[Edited on 7-18-2011 by wessongroup]

JoeJustJoe - 7-19-2011 at 02:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoeI have yet to hear other American claim Mexicans are coming to the USA because of drug cartel violence.


I was meaning that they won't go back home, not even for Christmas like they always used to. It used to be a pilgramage of sorts.


So now even the Mexican nationals fear Mexico? Well I guess some do, but I bet most of them don't espeically if they go home frequently.

I have some Mexican-Americans in my family that thinks Mexico is dangerous too, and I have some that don't. The debates get interesting around the dinner table.

But it would seem the people who visit Mexico the least or have never been there are the most scared, because the only thing they go on is the media reports.

It just goes to show you that the media is more than doing their job. There are thousands if not millions of Americans that think Mexico is dangerous, and will not travel there.
____

Wooosh I notice that you tend to think of only one reason why a event will or will not occur. For example you cite Mexican drug cartel violence as the reason why many Mexicans aren't traveling back to Mexico. However, there are many factors why some Mexicans aren't returning back to Mexico:

First you have undocumented Mexicans that can't return to Mexico, because they will have to pay a "coyote" a few thousand dollars to get back in the US, because the costs have gone up.

Second, you have the recession that hurts Mexican migrants as much as it does Americans. Mexican immigrants brought houses too and used them like piggy banks, but they could no longer do that.

Third, they are many immigrants unemployed and can't afford to go back to Mexico, because they are looking for a job here in the US, and if they continue to be unemployed there is no reason to return to Mexico for a visit because they might return to Mexico next year for good if they can't find a job.

JoeJustJoe - 7-19-2011 at 02:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
Don't know about AZ.. but, do know about Mexico ... is it your position that no headless bodies are have been found in Mexico.. is it also your position that none of the examples I posted have occurred?

My post had nothing to do with immigration, .. and you talk about highjacking... :lol::lol::lol:

The post only dealt with reported "events" by the Mexican Press, and personal experience (oh, thats right you don't care for that) ... of terrible carnage which is occurring in Mexico whether you wish to acknowledge...

On the Mexican press, which has the unique distinction of being the most dangerous place to be a reporter ... they have a higher mortality rate than those in: Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan...

Now isn't that is a claim to fame.. HUH !!!

Thank God for the bravery, honesty and dedication of true reporters of Mexico's News.. they are a brave lot in my view... along with those that become Mayors of town's for a week or two before they are killed, or their families are set upon by those that would do harm.. to get their way...

You should practice what you preach... just saying... :lol::lol:

By the way they® kill priests too... and it's not for messing with children .... that should give ya a clue...

And for the wife, I took her to Baja.. the farthest down she had been was TJ (where her family came from) ... farthest we got was south of San Antonio a few miles along the cost in a VW bus... in about 1969 .... camping out .. the two of us... did have a fear at all... in all my times down.. ever...

As I've stated my Dad started taking us kids down around 1950, when I was 8 years old.. didn't mind Mexican then and certainly don't mind them now...

By the way, our Ford Bronco is called "Brownie" my wife came up with the name... OH MY !!!


[Edited on 7-18-2011 by wessongroup]


What are you talking about Wesson?

Regarding the brave reporters. Yeah a few Mexican reporters have been killed. Who would forget the "Zeta" reporter who was killed after reporting non stop about Hank Rhon in the late 80's. But I haven't heard of too many stories about Mexican reporters being killed over something they wrote or covered the last few years, and the reporters have been pretty much open about reporting about the Mexican drug cartels. The US border reporters I doubt even go into Mexico to report, but I'm not sure? It seems many of the articles I read in the San Diego papers are Spanish translations that have already appeared in the Baja papers.

Besides Wesson you have guys like Woooosh who are claiming a news blackout regarding Mexican cartel violence, especially on the US side. Woooosh isn't the only one who believes there is some type of conspiracy news blackout o going on at the highest levels of government.

You even have the "alarmist" Baja bloggers upset about the so-called news blackout. And they're not always entirely wrong because some stories aren't covered that maybe should have been covered.

So make up your mind Wesson: Are the reporters brave reporters risking their very lives reporting on the violent action of the Mexican drug cartel violence? Or are the reporters on both sides of the border afraid of the Mexican drug cartels, but even more afraid of the corporate media bosses that puts tape on their mouths of the reporters, and tells the Mexican, and American reporters and newpaper editors to not run anymore scary stories about the drug cartels that's going to ruin tourism espeically US tourism to Mexico.

Wesson your wife has Mexican heritage but she only been down to Tijuana and some Baja trip in the year 1969! No comment, because this isn't the "OT" area.

JoeJustJoe - 7-19-2011 at 03:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
I have yet to hear other American claim Mexicans are coming to the USA because of drug cartel violence.


Many do. They escape the threat of kidnapping. You'll have to ask the Presidente de Tijuana why he lives in La Jolla, California.
Lots of wealthy Mexicans are NOB for the same reason...safety.
Kind of blows a hole in all the nonsense from the critics here that say the US is as dangerous as Mexico.

Ask a Mexican.



I don't have to ask the Mayor of Tijuana why he lives in La Jolla. I could just put myself in his shoes:

Let me see where should I live? Tijuana or La Jolla?

Tough choice there Dennis. And besides the Mayor spent a lot of time living, going to school and working on the US side. So I doubt you could make the claim he is living in La Jolla because he fears being kidnapped or killed.

Oh although my avatar says I rather be in Tijuana. I think I'd choose La Jolla over Tijuana too.

I doubt you'll get many Mexicans applying for asylum because of violence back home in Mexico. It will only be a handful when you compare it to the ratio of Mexicans that come to the USA for jobs.

I'm sure a few wealthy Mexicans live in places like La Jolla instead of TJ too for the same reasons as the Tijuana mayor, and I'm sure some are concerned about being kidnapped because they and their families have lots of money.

However, reading the papers and watching "Fox News" and hearing people talk about the kidnapping stories. Well listening to these types talk, and you hear it on forums as well. The causal tourists and expats with barely a pot to pee in also believe that they could and will be kidnapped if they visit the Tijuana/Baja area!

I always have a good laugh hearing causal tourist who live a middle class lifestyle worry about getting kidnapped if they visit the border towns. :lol:

I think you should only be worried about being kidnapped if you're are CEO type, a drug cartel member, or a human smuggler, because it's these types of people that could raise a lot of money and don't always want the cops involved. Yeah I heard they are kidnapping less rich people, but still if I was a casual tourist or poor expat living on Social Security. I would not worry about being kidnapped.

Woooosh - 7-19-2011 at 10:12 AM

Geesh Joe. I know you posted this at 3am- but do you really think it's OK for the Mayor of Tijuana to live in La Jolla? He should have run for mayor there then (ok- I know La Jolla doesn't even have a Mayor). Maybe he just wants to be closer to his people.

JESSE - 7-19-2011 at 10:20 AM

The awnser is NO, the more violence in Acapulco, the more tourist we get.

sancho - 7-19-2011 at 10:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
The awnser is NO, the more violence in Acapulco, the more tourist we get.




Interesting take Jesse, never thought that Mainland violence
would have that effect. If perspective US Tourists to Mex
pay attention to incidents in Mex they will see that the Cape/La Paz are MOSTLY or totally free of the Mainland Cartel war

Woooosh - 7-19-2011 at 11:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sancho
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
The awnser is NO, the more violence in Acapulco, the more tourist we get.




Interesting take Jesse, never thought that Mainland violence
would have that effect. If perspective US Tourists to Mex
pay attention to incidents in Mex they will see that the Cape/La Paz are MOSTLY or totally free of the Mainland Cartel war

Look what happened to Monterrey and they thought they would not be impacted. You can only hope it won't come your way, but eventually it will. It's the whack-a-mole effect and the more they get whacked one place- the more likely they are to move onto someplace new.

JESSE - 7-19-2011 at 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Quote:
Originally posted by sancho
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
The awnser is NO, the more violence in Acapulco, the more tourist we get.




Interesting take Jesse, never thought that Mainland violence
would have that effect. If perspective US Tourists to Mex
pay attention to incidents in Mex they will see that the Cape/La Paz are MOSTLY or totally free of the Mainland Cartel war

Look what happened to Monterrey and they thought they would not be impacted. You can only hope it won't come your way, but eventually it will. It's the whack-a-mole effect and the more they get whacked one place- the more likely they are to move onto someplace new.


A.-Monterrey is a major metropolitan area, with a huge local drug market.

B.-Monterrey is a major route wich controls the most lucrative drug crossing in the world.


BCS has nothing near as important to fight for.

Woooosh - 7-19-2011 at 01:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Quote:
Originally posted by sancho
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
The awnser is NO, the more violence in Acapulco, the more tourist we get.




Interesting take Jesse, never thought that Mainland violence
would have that effect. If perspective US Tourists to Mex
pay attention to incidents in Mex they will see that the Cape/La Paz are MOSTLY or totally free of the Mainland Cartel war

Look what happened to Monterrey and they thought they would not be impacted. You can only hope it won't come your way, but eventually it will. It's the whack-a-mole effect and the more they get whacked one place- the more likely they are to move onto someplace new.


A.-Monterrey is a major metropolitan area, with a huge local drug market.

B.-Monterrey is a major route wich controls the most lucrative drug crossing in the world.


BCS has nothing near as important to fight for.

water routes?

Woooosh - 7-19-2011 at 09:29 PM

More Mexicans Fleeing Drug War Seek USA Asylum

http://news.yahoo.com/more-mexicans-fleeing-drug-war-seek-u-...

excerpt:

"Amid the violence, asylum requests from Mexico reached a record 5,551 last year, according to U.S. government figures, more than a third up on 2006 when President Felipe Calderon took office and sent the military to crush the cartels. Just 165 asylum requests were granted in 2010."

[Edited on 7-20-2011 by Woooosh]

Bajafun777 - 7-20-2011 at 07:12 AM

Anytime that any violence where numerous people get killed by automatic weapons tourists get afraid to come to Mexico. I have relatives, friends and many Mexican friends that will not cross into Mexico anymore due to the violence.
Fear is something that cannot be guaged, as it affects all people different. Friends of mine that I have been experiencing Baja with for over 37 years will no longer cross making it sad for me, as I miss our experiences and fun down here. Still working on them and still encouraging them to look at the big picture like crime in USA but the thing the keeps coming back at me is the beheadings that just keep them away! Too bad I miss them here and wished they were still coming down. Take Care & Travel Safe------ "No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

DENNIS - 7-20-2011 at 08:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajafun777
Fear is something that cannot be guaged, as it affects all people different.



Two kinds of fear, rational and irrational with various degrees of each.

In my estimation, Mexico instills a rational fear in those concerned with self-preservation. With all of the unknowns of the crime situation, what....who....when.....where, that fear should be off the charts. Anything less is putting one's life in the hands of fate.

!!!!incoming!!!

EdZeranski - 7-20-2011 at 09:18 AM

Quote:
[That's what I am interested in, an "apparent" internal migration of Mexicans from the Mainland to Baja in search of safety.


I've met several Mexicans from the mainland who told me they had moved their families to Baja because it was 'safer'. These were younger folks with kids we talked to around Loreto.

EdZ

stay safe out there

EdZeranski - 7-20-2011 at 09:24 AM

Quote:
[.... I have relatives, friends and many Mexican friends that will not cross into Mexico anymore due to the violence.
.... Take Care & Travel Safe------ "No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777


Friends from Mexico City and Northern Baja have had family members kidnapped. In one case after spending a lot of money my friends never got their Dad's body back. They can't believe I'm still going to Baja.

EdZ

Woooosh - 7-20-2011 at 09:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EdZeranski
Quote:
[That's what I am interested in, an "apparent" internal migration of Mexicans from the Mainland to Baja in search of safety.


I've met several Mexicans from the mainland who told me they had moved their families to Baja because it was 'safer'. These were younger folks with kids we talked to around Loreto.

EdZ

The cost of living in Baja is much higher than on the mainland, so these people are taking a financial risk in search of safety for their families too. My family in Torreon is almost at the tipping point where some in the family want to move to Rosarito permanently. They are def spending more time here with us than in the past- now that the violence is taking that city over. If it wasn't for my nephew being water-boarded here by the Military- they'd be headed here already I think.

JoeJustJoe - 7-20-2011 at 11:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
More Mexicans Fleeing Drug War Seek USA Asylum

http://news.yahoo.com/more-mexicans-fleeing-drug-war-seek-u-...

excerpt:

"Amid the violence, asylum requests from Mexico reached a record 5,551 last year, according to U.S. government figures, more than a third up on 2006 when President Felipe Calderon took office and sent the military to crush the cartels. Just 165 asylum requests were granted in 2010."

[Edited on 7-20-2011 by Woooosh]



I wonder how many of those asylum requests were fake?

I bet the majority of those asylum applications were fake or the asylum applicants was unable to prove their case, and were most likely BS? I would imagine many immigration lawyers and "poser" lawyers and immigrants themselves are trying to "game" the system by trying to claim some type of political asylum and how their very life is in danger if they remain in their home country and can't come to the USA.


Well whatever the case is. It doesn't look like the USA is granting many asylum requests, because that's a pretty dismal record of approving just 165 applications out of 5551 asylum applications.

I wish I was better at math to do the calculations because it means the USA is turning their backs on about 5400 people who will now face certain death in their home country if their asylum applications are true.

Lets not forget the Afraid Maid who accused the IMF chief DSK of sexual assault. She claimed she was gang raped in her home country and couldn't go back!

Woooosh - 7-20-2011 at 11:22 AM

They face certain death in Mexico Joe?

"I wish I was better at math to do the calculations because it means the USA is turning their backs on about 5400 people who will now face certain death in their home country if their asylum applications are true. "

805gregg - 7-24-2011 at 06:59 PM

I think the fact that no one ever gets caught, affects all of Mexico, the criminals can do anything they want and never or almost never pay the consequence.

That Was Mazatlan

Bajahowodd - 7-25-2011 at 03:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
As I have relatives who live in Mismaloya, I am somewhat stumped that Dennis included PV on his list of rogue destinations, inasmuch as what has been reported to me, is mostly business as usual there.



I don't feel like doing the research right now, but the place has been hot as hell lately. Didn't some of the cruise ships bail out of PV just recently?


And because of a surge in local street crime against tourists; not cartel related.

DENNIS - 7-25-2011 at 04:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd

That was Mazatlan.

And because of a surge in local street crime against tourists; not cartel related.


http://travel.usatoday.com/cruises/post/2011/06/princess-cru...

DENNIS - 7-25-2011 at 07:11 PM

Bump for Howard. I'm sure he wants to see it. :lol: