BajaNomad - get your tourist visas if coming SOUTH

get your tourist visas if coming SOUTH

BajaBlanca - 7-22-2011 at 09:58 AM

our guests have advised us that their papers: passport and visas WERE checked yesterday in GUERRERO NEGRO as they came south ....

have your papers ready amigos !!!! they also say the spraying cost them 20 pesos (up from the usual 10) but that they think there was, in fact, no liquid at all .....

so, in fact, it is a toll :lol:

tiotomasbcs - 7-22-2011 at 10:18 AM

Out of soap? I have refused to pay & they hesitated a bit and then I just drove off! The otro Fruit/Citrus check outside La Paz has been closed! No military, either?! Tio

DENNIS - 7-22-2011 at 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
they also say the spraying cost them 20 pesos (up from the usual 10)

They must have upgraded to purified water instead of that nasty tap stuff.

DENNIS - 7-22-2011 at 10:22 AM

Oh...yeah....forgot why I just posted.
The immigration thing here will be more aggressive as the US steps up their methods...which they are.
Be prepared.

BajaGeoff - 7-22-2011 at 11:24 AM

When I drove through GN this past May they sprayed but did not ask for my visa....which I always get anyways. My undercarriage spray was also 20 pesos....

bajabass - 7-22-2011 at 12:40 PM

10 pesos??? I've been paying 20 since about 2006!!! :rolleyes:

Curt63 - 7-22-2011 at 12:55 PM

Most importantly, if you do not have the valid paperwork (stamped) and you are in Mexico illegally YOUR AUTO INSURANCE IS INVALID.

You will have some serious issues to bribe away if you are in a traffic incident (your fault or not)!

[Edited on 7-22-2011 by Curt63]

bajabass - 7-22-2011 at 01:02 PM

Good point Curt!!

rts551 - 7-22-2011 at 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajabass
10 pesos??? I've been paying 20 since about 2006!!! :rolleyes:

Did you have a trailer...that was always another 10... and by the way, if you do not have paperwork there is a fine.

DENNIS - 7-22-2011 at 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Curt63
Most You will have some serious issues to bribe away if you are in a traffic incident (your fault or not)!

Worse than serious if someone's hurt. There is an element of people here who carry neck braces in their car.
Do not tailgate.

Bajatripper - 7-22-2011 at 01:20 PM

I recently had visitors who came through Guerrero Negro and his wife was without proper documentation because she had an expired passport and they refused to issue a tourist visa at the border. My friend decided to take his chances anyway. They were checked at Guerrero Negro and had to pay a 100 dollar fine (in addition to the fee for the document) for the issuance of the tourist visa for his wife. They didn't catch the expired passport.

Bajahowodd - 7-22-2011 at 03:48 PM

Just looking back over the past year or so, it seems that we went from having an immigration check at the State line, to no having one, and back, again.

However unreliable the frequency may be, as Blanca mentioned, you really need to be legal. Fines, shmines. How about respecting the law of a foreign country? The process at the border takes very little time.

Oh, and the auto insurance thing has been debated ad nauseum. Last I recalled, our Nomad resident Mex broker posted that when you purchase the insurance, it is valid no matter. But that kinda diminishes my earlier admonition about being legal...

Bob and Susan - 7-22-2011 at 04:58 PM

thats right... insurance has nothing to do with your visa

insurance is still good if you don't have a visa

i would still get one...
last price was 21$usa

David K - 7-22-2011 at 05:05 PM

The bug spray (water spray) fee was 20 pesos (no trailer) in 2009 and 2007... for us! In 2001 it was 10 pesos + a beer (yes, he actually asked).

Bajahowodd - 7-22-2011 at 05:13 PM

So. All those posts that talked about the immigration office closing there were just so much nonsense.

However, what I would be more interested in is how strict and reliable the enforcement is. As someone who has literally never been asked for papers North or South there, I'd really like to know if enforcement has been increased.

Have had a number of folks tell me of their fines. Always thought that we were somehow overlooked. Despite the fact that except for one occasion, when we actually forgot to pack our passports, we have always complied with the rules.

And that one time? We did the border to Cabo and back in two weeks not being molested. Go figure.

It's Mexico

bajaguy - 7-22-2011 at 05:34 PM

Let's see.......it could be open, it could be closed. They could ask for papers or they could not. They could do something today and not tomorrow........NOTHING is consistant.

Who cares about a 72 hour limit, or a free 7 day card, or the tourist zone, or where the line is.......just get the thing. It's gonna be cheaper than the fine.

It's like 4 wheel drive........better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

(somebody had a great tag line on nomads about Mexico being inconsistant, but I can't find it)

ncampion - 7-22-2011 at 06:07 PM

We drove down on July 19 and had our papers checked at GN. First time in five years. They looked at my wife and my FM3's but didn't notice our daughter in the back seat and didn't ask for her's. She had it but we didn't mention it. The officer was very polite, I get the feeling that this may be the norm for a while. I'm good with all this, we're in their country and we do it leagally as I wish they would when they enter ours.

Bajaahh - 7-22-2011 at 06:41 PM

It makes one just want to take the shortcut into GN by the airport

bypass the whole mess...

FMM

bajaguy - 7-22-2011 at 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaahh
It makes one just want to take the shortcut into GN by the airport

bypass the whole mess...

Why???? That would be like jumping the fence at the US border.......do the right thing and get your FMM

rts551 - 7-22-2011 at 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaahh
It makes one just want to take the shortcut into GN by the airport

bypass the whole mess...

What mess? quiet simple and I go through all the time.

Ateo - 7-22-2011 at 06:56 PM

Will be going thru GN mañana with no papers so I'll give you an update. We have passports but haven't been checked in years. In El Rosario right now and there's nothing I can do to get a tourist card. Hopefully if caught, like I was 10. Years ago, I'll pay a small fine and go tot he bank in GN.

willardguy - 7-22-2011 at 07:19 PM

go to la pinta parking lot go around the east side around the old rv park head off to the cemetary and into town get a cold beer and a couple tacos and continue heading south. we've been doin it for a couple decades.

thebajarunner - 7-22-2011 at 07:27 PM

It is cat urine

I just don't get it

Howard - 7-22-2011 at 07:45 PM

Some of the people that are posting on this thread seems like they wear their premeditated deceptions as a badge of honor. We have all forgotten to take care of things but to by design, thumb their nose at another countries laws is beyond me. These people would probably be the first to scream if a Mexican snuck illegally into the USA without papers and demand them to be deported, or worse.

JUST DO THE RIGHT THING AS IT IS NO BIG DEAL TO FOLLOW THE RULES FOR PROPER DOCUMENTATION TO ENTER AND STAY IN MEXICO.

BajaGringo - 7-22-2011 at 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Howard
Some of the people that are posting on this thread seems like they wear their premeditated deceptions as a badge of honor. We have all forgotten to take care of things but to by design, thumb their nose at another countries laws is beyond me. These people would probably be the first to scream if a Mexican snuck illegally into the USA without papers and demand them to be deported, or worse.

JUST DO THE RIGHT THING AS IT IS NO BIG DEAL TO FOLLOW THE RULES FOR PROPER DOCUMENTATION TO ENTER AND STAY IN MEXICO.

Amen

Roberto - 7-22-2011 at 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Curt63
Most importantly, if you do not have the valid paperwork (stamped) and you are in Mexico illegally YOUR AUTO INSURANCE IS INVALID.

You will have some serious issues to bribe away if you are in a traffic incident (your fault or not)!

[Edited on 7-22-2011 by Curt63]

This is not correct, and has been repeated several times. How do you know this?

Bajaboy - 7-22-2011 at 08:11 PM

We stopped at San Ysdiro immigration in June to pick up our FMTs. The guys there remembered us from our many visits. They said the bank was no longer open. We asked how to pay. They said we could pay anytime, anywhere as long as we did it before we left. We were not checked headed south.

We tried to pay one day in Vizcaino but the bank could not take our money. The immigration guys forgot to give us the paperwork for the payment. We asked the manager if he could verify that we tried to pay to which he refused. Fortunately, we were not checked northbound.

We'll try again in September.

rts551 - 7-22-2011 at 08:15 PM

The sneaks do this thinking they are so smart. EVERYONE knows the routes around, including immigration and the military. More than once I have seen the military checking on people on those back roads.

My immigration friends just smile and say fine - but they may have to pay the price later. What price?don't know, I guess it depends on what situation you might find yourself in.

Why risk it? getting the paperwork is too easy and in the scope of things, cheap.

DENNIS - 7-22-2011 at 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Howard
These people would probably be the first to scream if a Mexican snuck illegally into the USA without papers and demand them to be deported, or worse.

Thats funny, Howard. To whom would they make these blussterful demands?
Are you having bad dreams?

Cielomar - 7-22-2011 at 09:59 PM

Came though GN in mid-June and no check. I talked the guy up in Spanish a bit and that may have helped. I brought an ATV in a trailer and was checked at Tijuana. Wanted to see the original title and registration along with my passport. Bottom line, don;t take chances and have everything in order. Its not that hard. Besides, we are all terrible at bribbing. Not part of our culture (at least not on the low end).

Bajatripper - 7-23-2011 at 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
So. All those posts that talked about the immigration office closing there were just so much nonsense.

No, not nonsense, but rather, they were closed at the time and have reopened since. Think of the San Clemente/San Onofre check point heading north on I-5. Sometimes it's closed, other times, not.

Bajatripper - 7-23-2011 at 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ateo
Will be going thru GN mañana with no papers so I'll give you an update. We have passports but haven't been checked in years. In El Rosario right now and there's nothing I can do to get a tourist card. Hopefully if caught, like I was 10. Years ago, I'll pay a small fine and go tot he bank in GN.

As I posted above, it apparently is no longer a "small fine," as per what EMD-1 told me, unless $100 dollars a pop is "small" to you.

Bajatripper - 7-23-2011 at 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
The sneaks do this thinking they are so smart. EVERYONE knows the routes around, including immigration and the military. More than once I have seen the military checking on people on those back roads.

In all my years of traveling in Mexico, I've never had the military check on my immigration status. They're only interested in wether one has drugs or arms onboard and could care less about anything else, including if one is smuggling computers and other such items that require one to pay an import fee. I doubt you've seen them checking papers on those back roads.

David K - 7-23-2011 at 03:10 AM

I find all three of Bajatripper's posts above to be 100% correct from my experiences, as well.

If your insurance was purchased at BajaBound.com or Discover Baja, the lack of a tourist card has been clearly stated by both agencies as having NO affect on the policy being honored. I do think both would recommend that we all obey immigration laws, however. Sadly, those laws are a bit obscure as to when and where the tourist card is needed.

Ateo - 7-23-2011 at 07:03 AM

Quote:

As I posted above, it apparently is no longer a "small fine," as per what EMD-1 told me, unless $100 dollars a pop is "small" to you.

Nah. $100 dollars ain't small to me. Ouch.

Let me amend part of my post on this thread

Howard - 7-23-2011 at 10:26 AM

"JUST DO THE RIGHT THING AS IT IS NO BIG DEAL TO FOLLOW THE RULES FOR PROPER DOCUMENTATION TO ENTER AND STAY IN MEXICO."

OTHER THAN THE B.S. ONE HAS TO GO THROUGH TO GET AND KEEP RENEWING THEIR FM-2 AND FM3

[Edited on 7-23-2011 by Howard]

toneart - 7-23-2011 at 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy
Let's see.......it could be open, it could be closed. They could ask for papers or they could not. They could do something today and not tomorrow........NOTHING is consistant.

Who cares about a 72 hour limit, or a free 7 day card, or the tourist zone, or where the line is.......just get the thing. It's gonna be cheaper than the fine.

It's like 4 wheel drive........better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

(somebody had a great tag line on nomads about Mexico being inconsistant, but I can't find it)

Was this it?

Mexico teaches patience

...to the Monks among you who already bring patience skills with you.

When it comes to Mexico it is difficult to get the straight story because, unlike the U.S, their government policies, and especially their implementation, are inconsistent. Yes, it is easy to get frustrated, but when you are in Mexico this is one of the thing you have to accept. Those of us who have traveled and/or lived in Mexico much of our lives know this.

You have to learn "la onda"...the way it is done. And I don't mean there is only one way. What I mean is, you have to learn how to wend and wiggle your way through the maze. Knowing some Spanish and showing respect goes a long way.

BajaBlanca - 7-23-2011 at 11:12 AM

the GN immigration office was indeed closed for a long time and even tho it is haphazard, they sometimes check now and sometimes don't.

in san ysidro, the office, we were told, is open 24/7 for payment. you just have to wake the guy up depending on what time it is
:spingrin:

that being said (I really like that expression), when we drove to puerto nuevo, we were stopped by the military, fully armed and pointed at us, in the middle of absolutely nowhere and our vehicle was searched. well, sort of searched. seems they are not too excited about dogs, even tho Rex is the most friendly dog on the planet !!

[Edited on 7-24-2011 by BajaBlanca]

woody with a view - 7-23-2011 at 11:17 AM

we get stopped "out there" in the middle of nowhere and look at it as positive. guns and all. Mexico's only chance rests with these young men......

DENNIS - 7-23-2011 at 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
we get stopped "out there" in the middle of nowhere and look at it as positive. guns and all. Mexico's only chance rests with these young men......

Chance to do what? Harass fishermen?
Mexico is doing the same thing they whine about when the US does it....militarizing the border.

BajaGringo - 7-23-2011 at 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Mexico is doing the same thing they whine about when the US does it....militarizing the border.

As much as I hate seeing it, I am slowly coming to accept it as an ugly necessity, for a variety of reasons. My guess is that the coming years will be bringing more walls, barbed wire and troops to many borders across the planet...

DENNIS - 7-23-2011 at 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
As much as I hate seeing it, I am slowly coming to accept it as an ugly necessity, for a variety of reasons. My guess is that the coming years will be bringing more walls, barbed wire and troops to many borders across the planet...

Ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I'm all for it and always have been, but we have to suffer through the double standard.
Remember the outrage from Mexico when we first mentioned putting the National Guard on the border?

Where's the fence?

Our government, as lame as they are, will wait til there's no good reason left for an undocumented worker to cross the line, and then they'll put one up.

vgabndo - 7-23-2011 at 12:16 PM

Always good to study Spanish, always good to remember:

No hay reglas fijas.

sancho - 7-23-2011 at 01:07 PM

I used to be head strong on the POSSIBILITY of
your Mex Ins being invalid if you are in Mex
illegally, when not being in compliance with
Mex Imm Regs, I've softened my position per the
San Diego Mex Ins Brokers info. However I still
believe if involved in an accident, and Immigration
gets involved, they could impound your vehicle and
technically have the RIGHT to deport you, I've read
on at least 1 policy, that you have to be in the
Country legally for the Mex Ins Policy to be valid

woody with a view - 7-23-2011 at 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

good memory D.

where IS the fence. i play by the rules but it seems like THEY (govt types) could care less....... i guess i should just by more ammo> :light:

Marc - 7-23-2011 at 02:46 PM

Why this discussion? Just get the visa! Is that so hard?

mojo_norte - 7-23-2011 at 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc
Why this discussion? Just get the visa! Is that so hard?

Sometimes not that easy. There's been a few times (3) when I haven't been able to into the far lane - traffic - then what? In the past you could get and FMT in Ensenada or even GN without a fine which was nice.

Marc - 7-23-2011 at 04:38 PM

If I know ahead that I will be short of time I get my vise through Discover Baja. Very efficient and fast.

mojo_norte - 7-23-2011 at 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc
If I know ahead that I will be short of time I get my vise through Discover Baja. Very efficient and fast.

Hey! - so do you pay pay fee at the bank in Ensenada? Is there a queue - wait?

Curt63 - 7-23-2011 at 07:41 PM

While I am not an expert in Mexican Insurance, the following is a scan from my current, active policy through ACE Seguros S.A. purchased through DiscoverBaja in May 2011.

Exclusion 8 appears to explicitly exclude assistance coverage to anyone that is in Mexico illegally.

I could not find verbage in the contract that excludes insurance coverage.

However, there are a number of responsiblities of the insured in the event of the incident that require them to conduct and transact business in the Republic of Mexico.

Obviously, this requires a legal visit.

woody with a view - 7-23-2011 at 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mojo_norte

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc
If I know ahead that I will be short of time I get my vise through Discover Baja. Very efficient and fast.

Hey! - so do you pay pay fee at the bank in Ensenada? Is there a queue - wait?

you pay something like $10-15 each for the option of just getting it stamped. you don't have to go back and forth at 4am and wake up the guy at the bank. your mileage may vary....

rts551 - 7-23-2011 at 08:59 PM

good job Curt

Roberto - 7-23-2011 at 10:41 PM

All I can tell is that I have asked the agent about this (L&L) and also had to make a claim with another carrier and did not have a Tourist card.

What kind of assistance are they talking about, roadside assistance?

[Edited on 7-24-2011 by Roberto]

Hook - 7-23-2011 at 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mojo_norte

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc
Why this discussion? Just get the visa! Is that so hard?

What a pathetic excuse. What...... the border "sneaks" up on you and you cant get over, after all your trips to La Gringa and parts south? What........you cant force your way over, yet you can drive Hwy 1?

I have gotten into the Migra/Aduana area from the two lanes to the left of the declaracion line many times towing boats, before I knew the dance.

Dont lie to us.........lie to them, if you feel you must. You chose to avoid them, plain and simple.

CaboRon - 7-24-2011 at 07:10 AM

Quote:

So True

papers por favor

EdZeranski - 7-24-2011 at 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc
Why this discussion? Just get the visa! Is that so hard?

We pay the bit extra for Discover Baja but in the long run it saves us hassle. Visas, fishing permits and insurance good for any 120 days in a year...all one stop. A day or so before we head south we drive to Chula Vista then take the trolley to the border, walk across for the immigration stamp, then walk back across. We live in San Diego so it easy for us. The stop at GN has been on and off for a long time. In June we paid 10p for the spray with no paper check.....in either direction.

EdZ KG6UTS

Genecag - 7-24-2011 at 09:40 AM

The Visa is always availible at TJ Airport as well.

I just drove down from San Diego to La Paz and aside from the major road repair in three locations, everything was smooth and no paper checks.

BajaBlanca - 7-24-2011 at 09:54 AM

I am confused, the discover baja site says the visa is PRE-PAID .... is this not true ??????????????????

Curt63 - 7-24-2011 at 12:38 PM

Yes Blanca, but it needs to be stamped by immigration officers upon entry into Mexico

sancho - 7-24-2011 at 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

If your insurance was purchased at BajaBound.com or Discover Baja, the lack of a tourist card has been clearly stated by both agencies as having NO affect on the policy being honored.

Let me get this straight, both SD Mex Ins Brokers state this
info according to DK's post,
and the Ace Policy they both sell state the EXACT OPPOSITE, not saying
this exclusion would ever be used by the Mex Ins Co to deny,
but it obviously COULD be. Logic tells me that if it ever
came to push and shove, the final decision would not come
from the SD Mex Ins Brokers, but from the Mex Ins Co's
headquarters in Mex. What a surprise, grey area and contradiction in Mex

woody with a view - 7-24-2011 at 02:20 PM

for once i agree with a guy (or girl!) named Sancho....

but DK said it was so.....

BajaBlanca - 7-24-2011 at 02:32 PM

I also have no idea if it is true ornot, BUT logic would say that if you are in a country "illegally" ie without the proper docs, then the insurance wd be considered invalid.

That being said (told you I like that expression), does anyone have some real life experiences to back this up one way or another ???

woody with a view - 7-24-2011 at 02:45 PM

i do. i bite hook, line and sinker...... seguros, fmt, lisencia, not to mention i go home +/- 10,000 pesos lighter for the privilege of spending 2 weeks SOB.......

everytime! :tumble:

DENNIS - 7-24-2011 at 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
That being said (told you I like that expression), does anyone have some real life experiences to back this up one way or another ???

I have a neighbor who had a drivers license liability policy when he had an injury free head-on with another car. MAPFRE paid for the damage to the other car and not a word was said about immigration status to either one of them.
I can only imagine that if it were policy, it would have come up then.

Bajahowodd - 7-24-2011 at 04:00 PM

So. Where's BajaGeoff right now??

However, as was consistently ratified by many posters on this thread, if you get the proper paperwork, you don't have to worry about having an insurance company wave an exclusion at you.

My own personal opinion is that by and large Mexico is way too lenient on scofflaws from NOB. Obviously there are two majors reasons for that. The forst being that they so desperately need the revenue from tourists, and the second being that they know they live in a glass house.

sancho - 7-24-2011 at 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
for once i agree with a guy named Sancho....

but DK said it was so.....

It's taken this long for you to agree with me?
I feel like I've ARRIVED
(all in fun Woody)

DENNIS - 7-24-2011 at 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho

It's taken this long for you to agree with me?
I feel like I've ARRIVED
(all in fun Woody)

Yes....it is a milestone. Mark this day....somewhere. :lol:

Bajahowodd - 7-24-2011 at 06:26 PM

Whilst Woody and sancho engage in a lovefest (good for them), simple fact is that this lengthy thread actually boils down to what Blanca stated at the very beginning. Get your friggin papers and be legal.

It reallly seems to me that given the posts on this thread, there are way too many scofflaws who still seem to hold Baja as special. Prove it dudes and dudettes, by geting your friggin Visas, or whatever they call them.

I really cannot understand how it is that folks will disrespect a foreign nation that they regularly visit. And, the US issue with foreign immigration really ought not to be involved. Two wrongs do not make a right, as my latematernal grandma said to me.

David K - 7-24-2011 at 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho

Quote:

Umm, Discover Baja sells policies from TWO companies... HDI and Ace... BajaBound sells HDI as well... I have HDI. The Ace policy is less expensive, and I have NEVER used it.

In looking at my HDI book and policy, I do not see any exclusion based on being in Mexico without a tourist card.

So, get HDI and not Ace if you think you might stay in Baja longer than 72 hours and not have a tourist card.

Papers por favor

EdZeranski - 7-25-2011 at 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
I am confused, the discover baja site says the visa is PRE-PAID .... is this not true ??????????????????

You pay at the Discover Baja office, they are authorized to collect the fees by the Mexican Govt, then they give you the original paperwork with a receipt. Immigration in Mexico still has to stamp the visa and enter the length of validity....after you give them the receipt of course. We get 180 days. Bonnie and I just use the trolley ride as another adventure. You could just go to the Immigration when you drive across but because Immigration is open 24 hours a day...except during the hours of?.....we take the extra bit on the trolley.

EdZ KG6UTS

Roberto - 7-25-2011 at 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
I also have no idea if it is true ornot, BUT logic would say

Excuse me for pointing this out, but since when do things in mexico follow LOGIC?

mojo_norte - 7-25-2011 at 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook

Quote:

Originally posted by mojo_norte

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc
Why this discussion? Just get the visa! Is that so hard?

Are you one of those negative posters on this site?!
Me ..
Liar - No
Scofflaw - No
Pushy aggressive driver - No

Stay positive my friend ..

Roberto - 7-25-2011 at 09:04 PM

You obviously have no idea about Hook, who he is, and what he's contributed over the years. Strange, since you registered in 2006. Maybe you haven't been paying attention.

Signed,

The Negative Poster.

Ateo - 7-26-2011 at 05:19 PM

Went thru Guerrero Saturday at 2pm and they weren't checking anything. Just the bug spray....

Bajatripper - 7-28-2011 at 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Jorge
am both capable of and happy to use the pay as you go civil services of Mexico should the need be presented.
:

Assuming I understand your meaning, my sentiments, too. Viva Mexico, where almost anyone can enjoy the benefits of corruption, not just the filthy rich as is the case in our country.