BajaNomad - London's Burning, could it happen on the Baja?

London's Burning, could it happen on the Baja?

Puckdrop - 8-9-2011 at 06:25 AM

What has happened to our youths? London is now on fire and riots and looting in the streets are rampant. Makes the Vancouver riot in June look like a campfire wiener roast. But this is a troubling trend. Why are our youths turning to violence so much these days. Is it the mas migration of ethnic integration in country's? The US and Canada has always been and was build on immigration but in general all newbies have learned to co-exist with the laws of the land. But I am seeing less and less of that with this generation. Could it be that perhaps one day here in the Baja the local Mexican youth will rebel against us the gringos? We do not judge people by the color of their skin or the religion of their choice. You should judge them by the actions which their souls show their true colors. I have always told myself that when I'm in my home in Loreto, I am only but a guest in their country. I never forget that.

Cardon Man - 8-9-2011 at 07:29 AM

The "youths" are no less crazy than they have ever been. It's not like people just decided to riot for fun either. In typical fashion, it's the cops that lit the match by killing a young man in a poor London neighborhood. When people are poor, frustrated, and victimized by the police...violence is the result.

grace59 - 8-9-2011 at 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man
The "youths" are no less crazy than they have ever been. It's not like people just decided to riot for fun either. In typical fashion, it 's the cops that lit the match by killing a young man in a poor London neighborhood. When people are poor, frustrated, and victimized by the police...violence is the result.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/06/16/photos-riots-fire-de...
I agree with part of your post! BUT, I do think our youth now are different....take a look at the pics from the recent riot in Vancouver BC. The riot had nothing to do with the poor or people being victimized by the police...the riot was because the Canucks lost game 7 of the Stanley Cup. Look at the pics...seems like some of these kids are having lots of "fun" rioting...even posed for pics. Why does this happen? I don't know, but it is sad. It is happening in London, it's happened in Seattle, Vancouver...I've seen youth rioting in other parts of the US when their team looses. Don't know why, don't know the answer. It is just sad. And I hope that it never happens in Baja.

Bajatripper - 8-9-2011 at 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Puckdrop
What has happened to our youths? London is now on fire and riots and looting in the streets are rampant. Makes the Vancouver riot in June look like a campfire wiener roast. But this is a troubling trend. Why are our youths turning to violence so much these days. Is it the mas migration of ethnic integration in country's? The US and Canada has always been and was build on immigration but in general all newbies have learned to co-exist with the laws of the land. But I am seeing less and less of that with this generation. Could it be that perhaps one day here in the Baja the local Mexican youth will rebel against us the gringos? We do not judge people by the color of their skin or the religion of their choice. You should judge them by the actions which their souls show their true colors. I have always told myself that when I'm in my home in Loreto, I am only but a guest in their country. I never forget that.

You bring up some interesting questions and make some interesting observations. The reasons are many and complex.

But I don't think you need to worry too much about those of us living in Baja suffering a similar fate. The chief distinguishing factor between Baja and most places that have lived through this type of violence is that the immigrants to Baja tend to bring money, but in those places they come looking for work. We don't compete with the locals for economic opportunities, rather, we provide the locals with economic opportunities.

That said, something that could end up biting us in the rear here in Baja might be an anti-immigration backlash in the US against Mexican immigrants--who do compete economically to a certain extent with Americans. While in Baja, on more than one occasion I've been on the receiving end of anger generated by the treatment received by Mexicans in the US.
But I don't see this turning into a riot like those we see elsewhere. Just a few gringos getting beat up by locals, perhaps. In the meantime, might I suggest that you love thy Mexican neighbors so that they might vouch for you being one of the "good ones," should it come to that?

We do not judge people by the color of their skin or the religion of their choice

mcfez - 8-9-2011 at 08:27 AM

Good topic. I think that if one reads history....protest is the norm. Ask Nixon! There are many examples of riots in the world......Four Days' Draft Riot, Detroit Riot of 1967, 1981 Belfast Riots, 2005 Civil Unrest in France.....so on.

However...
"....We do not judge people by the color of their skin or the religion of their choice".

Not all humans does this...I am very sorry to say. In Baja, and elsewhere...even here at the BN, look in the Off Topics. Much hatred exist.

"...I have always told myself that when I'm in my home in Loreto, I am only but a guest in their country. I never forget that".

Words of a wise person! Exactly how I think too.....and many of us here.

Rioting in Baja? I dont see it happening..at present.

J.P. - 8-9-2011 at 09:50 AM

COULD IT HAPPEN IN BAJA

POSSIBLY

COULD IT HAPPEN IN THE U.S.

VERY LIKELY AND PROBALY SHOULD

Really????

bajaguy - 8-9-2011 at 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man
The "youths" are no less crazy than they have ever been. It's not like people just decided to riot for fun either. In typical fashion, it's the cops that lit the match by killing a young man in a poor London neighborhood. When people are poor, frustrated, and victimized by the police...violence is the result.

"In typical fashion cops lit the match?????....In typical fashon"???? I suppose you know all of the facts of the incident???

"It's not like people just decided to riot for fun either"......

Check out these quotes from
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44070240/ns/world_news/

....."The riots appeared to have little unifying cause — though some involved claimed to oppose sharp government spending cuts, which will slash welfare payments and cut tens of thousands of public sector jobs through 2015.".......

...."Others appeared attracted simply by the opportunity for violence. "Come join the fun," shouted one youth, racing along a street in the east London suburb of Hackney, where shops were attacked and cars torched."..........

Maybe you can also try and balme it on George W Bush.....

Cardon Man - 8-9-2011 at 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy

"In typical fashion cops lit the match?????....In typical fashon"???? I suppose you know all of the facts of the incident???

Easy there tiger. The cops did indeed kill a man in Tottenham...that's a fact. And the resulting protest evolved into mayhem.
That's not to say there aren't a myriad of factors that lead people to act out like they have. But if you take a tense social situation, regardless of it's cause, and add violent cops that kill or beat people...well, you can almost count on that triggering more violence.

JESSE - 8-9-2011 at 11:10 AM

Jesus! its a slow summer when we start speculating about London like riots happening here.

Again???

bajaguy - 8-9-2011 at 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man
But if you take a tense social situation, regardless of it's cause,............. and add violent cops that kill or beat people...well, you can almost count on that triggering more violence.

Seems like you have an axe or two to grind.....

Puckdrop - 8-9-2011 at 11:56 AM

Hey Jesse, let's keep religion out of this :lol:

BajaGringo - 8-9-2011 at 12:05 PM

I think this has more to do with people's stress, fears and frustration with the imploding economic situation in industrialized nations. The incident with the cop was just the spark - the bad economy is the fuel...

Cardon Man - 8-9-2011 at 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy

Seems like you have an axe or two to grind.....

Let me guess...ex-cop?

Again, take it easy bajaguy...I'm just calling it like I see it.

Cardon Man - 8-9-2011 at 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
I think this has more to do with people's stress, fears and frustration with the imploding economic situation in industrialized nations. The incident with the cop was just the spark - the bad economy is the fuel...

Agreed. Fortunately, I don't sense that level of frustration among citizens here in Baja Sur. Even if you are poor here...you still have the freedom to sit under a tree, go to the beach, drink a ballena, and blow off some steam with friends and family now and then. I see locals doing just that regularly. In fact, they are experts at it and are better off for it.
I don't think many people that live in urban centers benefit from that type of freedom. When people are stuck in big cities with little money and nowhere to go frustrations can easily boil over.

[Edited on 8-9-2011 by Cardon Man]

danaeb - 8-9-2011 at 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man

Quote:

Spot on!

Bajatripper - 8-9-2011 at 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy

Quote:

Seems like you have an axe or two to grind.....

Not to add fuel to the fire, but a casual look at the 1960s in the US supports the view that the police often are the cause of civil demonstrations turning ugly--whether the demonstration was for civil rights or against the Viet Nam war, which factors out race.

In more recent memory, the Rodney Allen King beating comes to mind.

motoged - 8-9-2011 at 01:43 PM

I highly doubt that Baja is on the verge of rioting youth. They are too busy either working or hanging around with friends and/or family. The social fabric in London is planets away from Mexico (in general).

Remember the riots in Oaxaca a few years ago? Political issues there were the cause....not youth wearing hoodies and bandanas looking for an excuse to work out their adolescent angst.

I would consider myself to lean left politically and make no apologies about that, yet have no patience for this random riot BS that seems to pop up more these days than in the good ol' days of the Weathermen and Kent State (which had merit).

The Vancouver riot had NOTHING to do with hockey....the turdheads who were looking for adventure found it as a statement of disrespect....mindless as it all was ... mob hysteria is an element to be added to the Zeitgeist of today's world...

I don't think the retired folks dreaming of fishing and their next ballena need to worry about a riot breaking out too soon.... :rolleyes:

toneart - 8-9-2011 at 01:59 PM

Quote:

The thumbs up and the yes smiley face is to show agreement with BajaGringo's observations.

I would not restrict this to industrialized nations though. It is occurring throughout The Middle East and Africa. It happens wherever tyranny and exploitation by the ruling class exists, and it is growing.

I don't see it happening in Baja though. It is more likely to happen on the Mexican mainland, but the Cartels are currently drawing all the attention. Nobody is crazy enough to demonstrate against them.

Look for demonstrations in the streets of The United States as soon as the disenfanchised wake up.

Lessons of the Past

MrBillM - 8-9-2011 at 03:58 PM

Looking back on the '60s Rioting, the lesson was that the lawlessness continues as long as the authorities "Think" they can somehow reason with the Mob. Each time, the end comes when the Mob is Crushed.

The ONLY thing a Mob understands is Violence.

Compromising with a Mob is ALWAYS a mistake.

The strong reaction at the University of Mexico and the (unintended) National Guard Mow-down at Kent State put an end to what no amount of previous "Reasoning" did. The Guardsmen turned out to be accidental heroes.

If the Mob had been put down at the start of the French Revolution, that country and people would have been saved a nightmare.

Overwhelm Violence with Concerted and Ruthless response.

Puckdrop - 8-9-2011 at 04:05 PM

Good point Mr Bill, but in London the bobbies don't carry guns. How are they ever going to stop an angry mob with cheer-leading batons ? Oh boy, what have I started now!!!! here comes the NRA

Cardon Man - 8-9-2011 at 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM[/i

The strong reaction at the University of Mexico and the (unintended) National Guard Mow-down at Kent State put an end to what no amount of previous "Reasoning" did. The Guardsmen turned out to be accidental heroes.

13 unarmed kids shot and 4 killed at Kent state. Dozens more killed at the Tlatelolco massacre in Mexico City. Accidental heroes eh?

Heroes

MrBillM - 8-9-2011 at 04:35 PM

The response at Kent State, as a practical matter, brought an end to the cycle of campus rioting and that made the results worthwhile.

Besides, in addition to being Crazed Left-Wingers, the "Victims" were an example of Darwin's Dropouts. Charging up a hill towards armed soldiers wasn't that bright. They learned that day.

As one who viewed the '65 Watts riots up close and personal, the lesson I saw those days was that ONLY force is respected. When those National Guardsmen started shooting people, things were brought under control

While the street "Bobbies" in London are (still) unarmed, the Police and Scotland Yard have numerous squads of well-armed response units.

When dealing with a Mob, early harsh response is the key.

Hurt them BAD and FAST.

Cardon Man - 8-9-2011 at 05:04 PM

I gottcha. Like the heroes that killed 5 men at the Boston Massacre in 1770. Funny how the heros are a matter of perspective.

BajaBlanca - 8-9-2011 at 05:19 PM

however.................if I remember correctly, sometime in the past before we moved here (I think), teachers here in both Baja Norte and Baja Sur wreaked havoc when they stopped traffic on highway 1. so, discontent lies quiet for only so long and then one day BINGO. it explodes. and it is not necessarily related to economics only - there is student chaos in Chile right now and I understand that their economy is booming.

Well said

Ken Cooke - 8-9-2011 at 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man
The "youths" are no less crazy than they have ever been. It's not like people just decided to riot for fun either. In typical fashion, it's the cops that lit the match by killing a young man in a poor London neighborhood. When people are poor, frustrated, and victimized by the police...violence is the result.

I was searched on Oxford Street in 1985 - for being Black, and an American tourist in London. No, I didn't like the Bobbie's searching through my pockets, either. :!:

CortezBlue - 8-9-2011 at 08:04 PM

Under the current administration you will see the same issues in the USA

When you start giving FREE food, education or anything else and then take it away, folks get peeed.

Boston Analogy

MrBillM - 8-9-2011 at 08:33 PM

Prickly Cardon Thoughts:

"I gottcha. Like the heroes that killed 5 men at the Boston Massacre in 1770. Funny how the heros [sic] are a matter of perspective".
-------------------------------------------
Indeed, it is perspective and, while the analogy is imperfect, it IS another case of Mob behavior triggering unintended consequences.

In that case a group of 8 or 9 British Soldiers (doing their legal duty) were confronted and surrounded by an angry mob, estimated at 300 to 400. That mob, according to the defense (founding father and later President) John Adams, consisted of "a motley rabble of saucy boys, negroes, and molattoes, Irish teagues and outlandish jack tarrs".

The nervous soldiers, like the National Guardsmen, felt threatened, and according to witnesses, ONE discharged his musket and triggered a chain-reaction.

While they certainly were not acting Heroically, they were also certainly not Villains and the jury, although convicting two of Manslaughter, saw the justification for their fears.

In referring to the National Guardsmen as "accidental" heroes, I am saying it in the sense that the incident had a salutary effect on future (non) events.

[Edited on 8-10-2011 by MrBillM]

Russ - 8-10-2011 at 07:01 AM

I think protests are healthy. But when a few take it to a violent level the crowd mentality does not have a conscience and things turn ugly fast. It is heart breaking when you see businesses being broken into and torched. Very sad! Of course it could happen in Baja. It's happening on all over the world right now.

Bajajorge - 8-10-2011 at 08:29 AM

Due to the permissive, politically correct upbringing of todays youth, they have no respect for anybody or anything. They expect everything to be given to them on a silver platter. When they don't get what they want, they "act out". (I think that is the PC word for the youths inappropriate behavior)

Cardon Man - 8-10-2011 at 08:44 AM

It has been noted that the image of a hooded sweatshirt wearing teenage rioter is a media generated stereo type used to sell the story. There are people of all ages involved. There's more to this story than "youths" acting out. Frankly, i don't think many of the young people I know have the attention span and energy to "act out" to this degree and for this long.

DENNIS - 8-10-2011 at 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Cooke
No, I didn't like the Bobbie's searching through my pockets, either. :!:

Ohhh....you did too. :lol:

Puckdrop - 8-10-2011 at 09:29 AM

Hey, hey, hey, we are but a peace loving nation. What happened drarroyo, did an RCMP take away your beer and back bacon :biggrin:

Perhaps some Montreal smoked meat and a dozen Molson Canadian will cool you off, EH.

drarroyo - 8-10-2011 at 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Puckdrop
Hey, hey, hey, we are but a peace loving nation. What happened drarroyo, did an RCMP take away your beer and back bacon :biggrin:

Perhaps some Montreal smoked meat and a dozen Molson Canadian will cool you off, EH.

jaja just joshin'
luvin' the Canucks

Puckdrop - 8-10-2011 at 09:44 AM

Ya, I know
peace cousin :lol:

Indecisive is Idiocy

MrBillM - 8-10-2011 at 09:56 AM

When dealing with a mob.

Last night, I was watching the clips of the Unamed (except for plastic shields) Riot cops Running FROM the crowd.

Pitiful.

AND, the authorities are DEBATING whether or not to resort to "Plastic" Bullets.

Those who allow the Mob to dictate the terms of engagement deserve whatever Destruction and Death result.

Way off base!

toneart - 8-10-2011 at 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajorge
Due to the permissive, politically correct upbringing of todays youth, they have no respect for anybody or anything. They expect everything to be given to them on a silver platter. When they don't get what they want, they "act out". (I think that is the PC word for the youths inappropriate behavior)

This is pure rhetoric; BS! Addressing the case in point, the people who are rioting in England certainly have not had the "upbringing" that teaches "political correctness".

To address Mr. Bile: Violence begets violence. Police violence is what triggered this. THEN it escalated and got out of control. However, there is no excusing the wanton marauding, burning and looting. At that point the police have to use whatever tools they have at hand to quell the violence.

You are correct in that this is a "mob" doing violence. Mobs act in a collective, mindless way, without a clear political motive or purpose other than to destroy.

One cannot equate this with the Kent State murders by a couple of Ohio National Guardsmen. It was not a general order. The kids who were murdered were demonstrating on a principle, but they also believed that what happened could never happen in the U.S.A., on a college campus. It was an anomaly and shouldn't have happened!

Obviously you disagree with the principle, but your hate behind your opinion can in no way justify what happened. If it had satisfied your objective, then it was counter productive. It served as a further catalyst to mobilize the country against the Vietnam War. :yes:

I had said earlier that I don't think it could happen in Baja. Well, I guess it could happen anywhere that you have great economic disparity. It would have to be triggered by police or military violence. Without that trigger it is just a demonstration with a purpose. With it, it escalates into mob rule until it is put down...or in the case of the Arab Spring, the objective remained clear and there was eventually an achieved victory. (momentarily, anyway). :light:

JoeJustJoe - 8-10-2011 at 11:54 AM

London's Burning, could it happen on the Baja?

I doubt this will happen in Baja because Baja and Mexico is made up largely of monolithic dark-skinned Mexicans that share the same culture, although there is a ruling class in Mexico the Mexican people should riot against.

Although gringo expats in Mexico might think they are the ruling class. There is really no reason for the Mexican people to rise up against Americans living in Mexico. Gringos should just worry about getting robbed, ran over by car, or eating contaminated food and things of that nature.

However, I would say what is happening in the London could very easily happen in the US, espeically in cities with a large oppressed minority of Blacks and Latinos.

Watt Riot II showed how little power the police have when the black community in South Central LA reacted to the unfairness to the Rodney King beating and the all white blind jury that freed those animals with badges from the LAPD.

In 2006 when 100,000 young Mexican marched in LA over the unfairness of the GOP Congress of trying to pass a law making it a felony for just being in the US without papers. I shutter to think what would have happened if the crowd got angry and decided to riot. LA would have burned to the ground before the police and national guard could regain control.

So yes something like what's happening in London could easily happen in the USA's urban cities, especially in this environment of very high minority unemployment and the GOP controlled Congress being hell bent to make the rich richer, and the poor poorer.

Images from the rioting and the aftermath. Can this happen in the US in cities like Washington, LA, NY, Chicago, Dallas.......etc.

The answer is yes. Revolutions happen all the time if you look at history, and it's about time revolution happens in both the UK and US. Mexican's in Mexico should over throw their corrupt government too.

[Edited on 8-10-2011 by JoeJustJoe]

Rioters

MrBillM - 8-10-2011 at 01:08 PM

Shoot them down like the Dogs they are.

Immediate Harsh Response has ALWAYS had a positive result.

A slow response has ALWAYS been a mistake.

Woooosh - 8-10-2011 at 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
When dealing with a mob.

Last night, I was watching the clips of the Unamed (except for plastic shields) Riot cops Running FROM the crowd.

Pitiful.

AND, the authorities are DEBATING whether or not to resort to "Plastic" Bullets.

Those who allow the Mob to dictate the terms of engagement deserve whatever Destruction and Death result.

No words needed...

470x578.jpg - 47kB

MitchMan - 8-10-2011 at 01:56 PM

Sorry, MrBill, your response is simply not a civilized one. I am getting the distinct feeling you are a "the end justifies the means" type of guy. That type of reasoning and approach is just fundamentally wrong and often inhumane and immoral.

Off Topics septic is flowing into the Q & A

mcfez - 8-10-2011 at 02:06 PM

Bill...why the hell are you here trolling the Baja Questions & Answers topics? You need to get back to your dark domain (Off Topics). I'm surprised you haven't dumped your racist concepts here...yet.

[Edited on 8-10-2011 by mcfez]

wessongroup - 8-10-2011 at 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MitchMan
Sorry, MrBill, your response is simply not a civilized one. I am getting the distinct feeling you are a "the end justifies the means" type of guy. That type of reasoning and approach is just fundamentally wrong and often inhumane and immoral.

Ya ... mean like the economy ...... :lol:

[Edited on 8-10-2011 by wessongroup]

MitchMan - 8-10-2011 at 03:07 PM

You got that right, wessongroup.

A Serious Subject

MrBillM - 8-10-2011 at 03:21 PM

Deserves Serious Thought.

Whether others agree or not, what I've noted is appropriate to the subject.

And, backed up by a plethora of historical evidence with the French Revolution being the MOST flagrant example.

A MOB is NOT Civilized and doesn't deserve Civilized response. A MOB has to be put down as if it were a Rabid Dog. A MOB only understands Fear and only respects violence.

Once the MOB takes hold, no amount of negotiation and compromise are effective. The MOB must be dispersed. Or, as seems to often be the case, allowed to run rampant until it wears itself out. At the expense of massive property damage and lives lost.

After the MOB is ended, any social ills or other issues can be addressed.

It has ALWAYS been true and ALWAYS will be.

IF someone wishes to dispute that, they should do so on the basis of factual evidence to the contrary rather than spurious comments without factual basis.

MitchMan - 8-10-2011 at 04:09 PM

I see that you are doubling down, Mr Bill. "The end justifes the means!"

Quote:

A MOB is NOT Civilized and doesn't deserve Civilized response.

Then you go on to characterize a human mob as a "Rabid Dog" and that it "...has to be put down".

You've gone off the deep end. Listen to yourself, man. Get a grip. You sound like your answer to mob control is to annihilate it. Come on, admit it, you believe that "the end justifies the means", don't you? Come on, tough guy, admit it.

Cypress - 8-10-2011 at 04:28 PM

If your home or business was being looted, trashed, and burned. If you were being victimized by the mob? Opinions would change.

Cardon Man - 8-10-2011 at 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
If your home or business was being looted, trashed, and burned. If you were being victimized by the mob? Opinions would change.

That depends on whether or not you are part of the mob. I doubt very many of the people that made up the mob had a homes or business trashed.

For ANYONE ............

MrBillM - 8-10-2011 at 04:58 PM

Other than a student who failed Special-Ed, I think I've been perfectly clear.

A MOB operates absent reason. It lacks cohesive leadership or purpose. It HAS to be STOPPED as quickly as possible. The ONLY way of doing so has ALWAYS been an overwhelming Violent response. Period. That's historical FACT. I personally saw it in 1965. Nothing worked until absolute control was established under arms. The burden for the Blood of any innocents is shared by the authorities who allowed the MOB behavior to extend past Night ONE while vacillating in their response.

Once a "protest" degenerates into violent MOB behavior, WHATEVER means are NECESSARY should be employed until the situation is under control.

PERIOD.

Show me where other means have been successful.

Waiting for citation.

Bajahowodd - 8-10-2011 at 05:08 PM

Simply, this may be the template for what will happen in the US.

Baja does not come close to what is going on in the UK right now.

But the US has been witness to the systematic looting of the middle class for too many decades.

Question is, if the implosion/ explosion happens in the US, it needs to occur sooner than later, just because the longer we witness the looting of the American people for the good of the wealthy, the worse the result will be.

What's happening in the UK is not about race.

wessongroup - 8-10-2011 at 05:10 PM

Would a subway in India count :biggrin:

Woooosh - 8-10-2011 at 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Other than a student who failed Special-Ed, I think I've been perfectly clear.

A MOB operates absent reason. It lacks cohesive leadership or purpose. It HAS to be STOPPED as quickly as possible. The ONLY way of doing so has ALWAYS been an overwhelming Violent response. Period. That's historical FACT. I personally saw it in 1965. Nothing worked until absolute control was established under arms. The burden for the Blood of any innocents is shared by the authorities who allowed the MOB behavior to extend past Night ONE while vacillating in their response.

Once a "protest" degenerates into violent MOB behavior, WHATEVER means are NECESSARY should be employed until the situation is under control.

PERIOD.

Show me where other means have been successful.

Waiting for citation.

That was true until recently. The MOB of this current internet mass-disaffected generation is instantly connected with text and video and is cloaked in digital anonymity. Their actions can change on-the-fly and in real time. New game. jmho

[Edited on 8-11-2011 by Woooosh]

A New Game in Town

MrBillM - 8-10-2011 at 08:14 PM

And, that communication capability is, perhaps, another argument for Quick and decisive response to Mob activity.

Torching, Looting, Rock-Throwing and miscellaneous Mayhem with the unlikely penalty that you "might" be one of the few detained and "possibly" be subject to minor civil or criminal penalties pales next to those around you (or you) being riddled with Bullets.

Having experienced it from opposite perspectives, I can say being shot at is sobering and focuses attention.

Cypress - 8-11-2011 at 04:44 AM

I'd suggest all you defenders of looting mobs read Ann Coulter's latest column.

Cardon Man - 8-11-2011 at 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
I'd suggest all you defenders of looting mobs read Ann Coulter's latest column.

The fact that you take social commentary by Coulter seriously is an indication you're missing the point. I don't think anyone is defending the mob as much as they are condemning social sytems that disenfrachises people and creates poverty. It's haves vs have nots. The larger the population of have nots the bigger the powder keg that is created.

Bajatripper - 8-11-2011 at 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
But the US has been witness to the systematic looting of the middle class for too many decades.

Hey, we're talking about mobs here. The systematic looting of the middle class that has been taking place for the last three decades has been done by the government itself.

Bajatripper - 8-11-2011 at 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
I'd suggest all you defenders of looting mobs read Ann Coulter's latest column.

Well said, Cardon Man.

SFandH - 8-11-2011 at 08:24 AM

Flash Mobs:

http://www.clicker.com/tv/nightly-news/violent-flash-mobs-pu...

mtgoat666 - 8-11-2011 at 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Shoot them down like the Dogs they are.

mr bile:
why do you hate dogs?

Barry A. - 8-11-2011 at 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Shoot them down like the Dogs they are.

mr bile:
why do you hate dogs?

Yeah--------he probably should have said, "goats". :lol:

Brian L - 8-11-2011 at 09:12 AM

The pitifulest thing out is a mob; that's what an army is--a mob; they don't fight with courage that's born in them, but with courage that's borrowed from their mass, and from their officers. But a mob without any man at the head of it, is beneath pitifulness.
- Adventures of Huckleberry Finn

A Missing Qualification

MrBillM - 8-11-2011 at 09:29 AM

As I had said earlier, I "SHOULD" have qualified the comment with "Shoot them down like the RABID Dogs they are".

As much as I admire Dogs (more so than most people), a RABID Dog has to be put down as quickly as possible to avoid infection.

As should the Rioters in a Mob.

Interestingly, the British authorities NOW realize that their response system was totally inadequate to the task and are consulting (now that the Barn has burned down) U.S. Authorities for advice on handling Domestic Rioting.

THAT advice this a.m. from F.B.I. Domestic Terrorism experts has been:

SWIFT and OVERWHELMING (Deadly, if necessary) FORCE.

Hm, WHERE have I heard that one ?

Oh, Yeah !

One F.B.I. expert said that the British Met forces were completely unprepared psychologically for what they were faced with and had no idea how to approach the problem.

DUH !

Interesting in the London coverage was an interview with two of the female participants in the Anarchy who said they were showing "THEM that they could do whatever they Wanted to".

"Who", they were asked "are THEM" ?

"The Rich. We're showing the RICH that we can do anything we want to do to them".

"But, these are Local people you're hurting. What about them".

"It doesn't matter. They ARE the Rich. They have stores and shops so they're RICH. We're going to show THEM".

A phenomenon which I saw again and again as small shop-owners were destroyed (to never recover) in '65.

Faced with that mentality, there is no choice but to put them down harshly and restore order.

Better late than never.

AND, learn the lesson when the next time comes around.

ONLY Force is understood and effective.

BTW, Ann Coulter's latest (Best-Selling) tome "Demonic" centered around Mob Behavior is, as are ALL of her books, heavily referenced with Footnotes/Endnotes on her factual historical points along with heavy reference to Gustave Le Bon's classic examination of "The Crowd" and the French Revolution. Le Bon's book is available free on Kindle.

Brian L - 8-11-2011 at 09:36 AM

Bill, I get your point, MOB's must be put down. I agree.

Are you okay with organized and peaceful protests?

The problem in London is the unemployed youth (and adults) being frustrated. That doesn't give them the right to riot though.

Barry A. - 8-11-2011 at 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian L
Bill, I get your point, MOB's must be put down. I agree.

Are you okay with organized and peaceful protests?

The problem in London is the unemployed youth (and adults) being frustrated. That doesn't give them the right to riot though.

Brian---------in many ways we are ALL frustrated!!! Sometime as adults most of us realized that you cannot "act out" your frustrations in a civilized society-----------I think Bill is right-----mobs MUST be put-down fast and with more force than the Mob's----whatever it takes. End of story.

Peaceful demonstrations are annoying, but exceptable, IMO. (but I am not Bill)

Barry

[Edited on 8-11-2011 by Barry A.]

Cypress - 8-11-2011 at 10:56 AM

I get the point. All you bleeding hearts are attempting to justify arson, assault, murder, robbery, etc. as some sort of misguided form of social justice. Something is very wrong with that line of thought. :lol:

Brian L - 8-11-2011 at 11:28 AM

I'm a bleeding heart liberal, but see nothing wrong with putting down a mob with whatever means. A peaceful protest is not a mob however...

MitchMan - 8-11-2011 at 12:20 PM

Please, Cypress, don't use that disingenuous ploy of referring to those that don't see things your way as "defenders of mob behavior". Not believing that the proper reaction and handling of a mob is annihilation and use of uncivilized methods such as putting them down as though they were a rabid dog is not the same as defending a mob. That is a leap at best in logic and at least is intellectually dishonest, and offensive.

Cypress - 8-11-2011 at 12:41 PM

Mitchman, Seeing things my way? Disingenous ploy? Logic? Condeming arson, assault, murder, robbery, etc. is offensive to you? Jeez! Are you by any chance posting from a prison somewhere? :lol:

JoeJustJoe - 8-11-2011 at 01:43 PM

Quote:

If the masses don't get their needs met then it certainly is within their right to protest peacefully and if that doesn't work they have the right to protest in more traditional ways, and that includes aggressive methods including overthrowing their corrupt governments no matter where they may be, Europe, the middle east, and even the USA.

In the middle east Muslim countries one brutal dictator after another has fallen, although there are a few left in power, but no doubt know it's just a matter of time they get thrown out too. You had mass protest in those middle east countries and although peaceful on the protestor's citizen side. It did turn violent for awhile in many middle east countries while the brutal dictators tried to hold onto power.( so it might be a good idea for protestors to carry along with their peace signs, guns, knifes, and rocks too.)

Perhaps what's going on in London is the start of what's going to happen in the rest of the capitalistic western world where the divide between the rich and poor is growing every year and the middle class is disappearing? Since things still aren't that bad yet in the western world then maybe it will be referred to " Revolution light" with a little mayhem, burning, and looting to get their message across, and that message would be, "share the wealth" or lose everything. The London "protestors" are well coordinated thanks to I-phones, Blackberry, and Twitter.

Before the French Revolution Marie Antoinette, told the masses," let them eat cake.!" Well it's commonly attributed to Marie Antoinette anyway, but look what happened to Marie Antoinette. In this new decade the western governments especially in the USA don't even offer us cake, and instead the US government acts like a reverse Robin Hood where it wants to take from the middle class and poor and give to the rich!

I don't think the young adults out of work or heavily indebted students out of college with no job but heavily saddled with student loans in the USA are going to take this much longer.

Already we seen protests in the Muslim middle east countries, Israel, and now England. Even in the Arizona in a John McCain town hall meeting the crowd got hostile towards John McCain for his support for slashing the corporate tax rate, while cutting social services.( and these are old people in Arizona)

http://www.azpm.org/politics/story/2011/8/9/1830-mccain-town...

So yes I wouldn't be surprised if we too in the USA experience both nonviolent, and violent protesting and really a mini revolution of anarchy.

I'm sorry the civilian police would not be able to contain it, nor the National guard. It would take too long for the military to get approved by the courts to fight their own citizens, because currently US soldiers can't engage their own citizens.

you sure????

EdZeranski - 8-11-2011 at 01:51 PM

Quote:

...In typical fashion, it's the cops that lit the match by killing a young man in a poor London neighborhood.

It seems the sainted young man was being followed by a special unit of the police, not the usual 'Bobbies'. I doubt the special unit would waste its time on just anyone. There was, according to several accounts, beliefe the young saint dealt drugs and was possibly armed. That was in London, whats the excuse for riots/looting in other cities? The 'yob' mindset is not that uncommon in the UK, my cousins son is an example. (Bad Example sadly) His passport was pulled because of trouble he caused at the World Cup a few years ago.

you are owed????

EdZeranski - 8-11-2011 at 01:59 PM

Quote:

[i. In this new decade the western governments especially in the USA don't even offer us cake,

The government, using other taxpayer's money, doesn't owe you cake or anything else. Go earn some cake.

EdZ (not much of a cake fan anyway)

Brian L - 8-11-2011 at 02:07 PM

Well said, thanks!

My problem with London is that it didn't even seem to start as a protest, but jumped that stage and moved directly to riot.

In the Middle East, it started as protests, and then turned to violence as the regimes reacted violently. Even then, most of these protests were void of rioting and looting. Sadly, there were cases of both though.

Hopefully if things turn bad in the US and in Mexico, the protests can be done non-violently. I admire what the blacks did in the South in the 50's and 60's. Yes there were some bad apples, but for the most part, the non-violent protesting worked.

I am afraid that these days, with social media, things could turn ugly quick. Absent a strong leader, protests will turn into riots...

Quote:

Originally posted by JoeJustJoe

Quote:

mob rule!

mtgoat666 - 8-11-2011 at 02:13 PM

I am amused at comfortable middle and upper class gringos opining about the protests of poor people in another country many thousands of miles away. None of your opinions are informed or relevant!
Never judge a man (or woman) until you have walked a mile in his (or her) shoes!

[Edited on 8-11-2011 by mtgoat666]

Cypress - 8-11-2011 at 02:16 PM

mtgoat666, And you have? :biggrin:

The Time to Judge Others

MrBillM - 8-11-2011 at 05:05 PM

And act is before you have to do so in the Crosshairs.

As far as protests go, there's a rather substantial (peaceful) one going on right now in Israel over issues of wealth distribution. No looting, no burning, no killing.

Quite a contrast to the Lawlessness in England where minorities on the dole are killing other minorities and burning their businesses.

Bajahowodd - 8-11-2011 at 06:07 PM

Scariest thing about what is happening in the UK, is that the whole idea about mobs and jobs and right and wrong will translate to the US in a whole different manner.

The UK, much like most of the industrialized world has very strong restrictions on the ownership of weapons= guns.

Inasmuch as the American middle class has been devastated in a somewhat slow fashion since Reagan, but accelerated recently, just amkes me wonder just how long it will take before the streets of America will make the UK appear to be a Sunday picnic.

Trash in the London Streets

MrBillM - 8-11-2011 at 06:22 PM

It is, of course, NOT the Middle-Class Rioting in the Streets, but the Young Dregs on the Dole.

A HIGH percentage coming from Households where NO members have EVER held a Job.

A great illustration of the evil generated by a Socialist Welfare-State where a class of perpetual non-producers has been created.

Scary indeed

Dave - 8-11-2011 at 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
just amkes me wonder just how long it will take before the streets of America will make the UK appear to be a Sunday picnic.

Here's Fred's take on it:

http://www.fredoneverything.net/LondonRiots.shtml

Cypress - 8-11-2011 at 06:40 PM

Dave, Thanks. Fred's right!

Coming to the USA ?

MrBillM - 8-11-2011 at 08:11 PM

While probably not intended, the (hopeful ?) musing or expectation by Bajahowodd over the Mean streets migrating to the U.S., lends credence to those of us who are Armed to the Hilt.

Just in case.

We may be called Paranoid by some, but we ARE prepared for THAT day.

BTW, it doesn't matter what event may have triggered the Trash to Riot. NO provocation should result in that response.

[Edited on 8-13-2011 by MrBillM]

JoeJustJoe - 8-12-2011 at 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ridge

Quote:

Originally posted by EdZeranski...the sainted young man...the young saint...

The violence started after a beating; not the shooting you refer to.

16 Year Old Girl Beaten By Police Sparks London Riots Violence

Warning: strong profanity; don't click on that if you don't wish to hear it. It is a cell phone vid taken at the actual moment that started it all.

Eyewitness account:

Quote:

"......what actually ignited everything is a young female had approached the police standing line and she was set upon by police with their batons...they had actually charged toward her and starting hitting her with their batons...approached the police saying that the community demanded answers...and they just set upon her..."

Man times police brutality by rogue corrupt cops is the spark that causes non-peaceful protests, riots, and even revolutions.

Here is a great "YouTube" video that gives me hope that one day the tables could be turned on the corrupt rogue cops that abuse their power around the world, espeically in the USA:
__________________

Guards that Beat Fan are then Beaten by More Fans

http://youtu.be/m1K3tJEqphs

Cypress - 8-12-2011 at 01:28 PM

Yea, I see.

A cop makes a dumb move, so the solution is looting stores, attacking, robbing and murdering innocent people, burning buildings and on and on...... BS!!! The same-o-same-o lame excuses for mob behavior are old and worn out. Stealing TV sets isn't a protest, it's just plain old theft.

Brian L - 8-12-2011 at 01:28 PM

This in the news today:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/ballerina-olympic-ambass...

Seems like it isn't just poor and stupid people. Hmmm.

Cisco - 8-12-2011 at 01:56 PM

"BTW, it doesn't matter what event may have triggered the Trash to Riot. NO provocation should result in that response."
MrBillM

"I will never apologize for the United States of America, ever. I don't care what the facts are."
Newsweek, August 15, 1988 Statement by Vice President Bush.

Regarding the U.S. shoot-down of the Iranian commercial airplane and the loss of 290 civilian lives.

OF COURSE !

MrBillM - 8-12-2011 at 02:04 PM

The London Burnings are linked to GWB.

Cisco says so. After hearing it from Pauncho ?

It's a great place to visit

mcfez - 8-12-2011 at 02:34 PM

Currently in the number 8 spot, according to tripadvisor

http://www.tripadvisor.ca/TravelersChoice-Destinations

Bobbies Just Wanna Be Nice

MrBillM - 8-14-2011 at 01:09 PM

The Police Unions in GB are protesting the appointment of William Bratton in an advisory capacity because they don't want American Attitudes.

"America Polices by FORCE. WE don't want that HERE".

Can't They ALL just be Nice and get along ?

It's probably better if they just quit arresting Criminals and making them Mad.

Instead of Bill Bratton, perhaps, they should have hired Rodney King.

Cypress - 8-14-2011 at 01:25 PM

Baja is Mexico! Most Mexicans respect the law and have a strong sense of family values. They're hard workers with moral standards. The Brits? They've been feeding the mob and the mob is bitting the hand that's feeding 'em. This is a wake-up call for the Brits. Last chance Brits! Good luck!

Cypress - 8-14-2011 at 05:37 PM

Yea, lencho. Most people respect and obey the laws of the land. Your question?

Cardon Man - 8-15-2011 at 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
...Most Mexicans respect the law...

Most people in general respect the law, regardless of where they are from. That said, Mexicans, even Mexican cops, know when and where to let the laws bend to their advantage.

They also don't feel the need to enact laws governing the most mundane aspects of thier lives like their gringo neighbors.

In an earlier post I cited personal freedoms that Mexicans enjoy here in Baja Sur that serve to deflect some of the frustration that might cause London like riots in Baja. In the USA, just try and sit under a tree in your neighborhood, or go to the beach, or a park...and crack a beer or smoke a cig with your friends or family. You'll have a cop with a flashlight in your face so fast it'll make your head spin. And 100 pesos won't make him go away either.

Cypress - 8-15-2011 at 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
Unfortunately, the last 10 years in the U.S. has generated extremes of government regulation that have gotten downright scary.

Very true!!!!

BajaGringo - 8-15-2011 at 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
Unfortunately, the last 10 years in the U.S. has generated extremes of government regulation that have gotten downright scary.

Very true!!!!

Somewhere in-between the two systems (US:Mexico) would probably be ideal. I haven't found such a place to date...

Struck by the Irony

MrBillM - 8-15-2011 at 09:15 AM

Of the Limeys Lament over "Policing by Force".

In the usual day-to-day administration of Law-Enforcement, GB is one of the MOST oppressive with intensive Electronic surveillance and far greater liberties enjoyed by the Cops thanks to fewer Civil Liberties enjoyed by the accused or suspected.

Bajatripper - 8-15-2011 at 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
BTW, it doesn't matter what event may have triggered the Trash to Riot. NO provocation should result in that response.

Spoken as someone who has lived a very comfortable life and hasn't a clue how many of his fellow countrymen are presently coping. As for being armed to the hilt, "they" have little problem in acquiring arms, too. Could get interesting. As we are learning (again) in Iraq, armies aren't all that effective in urban guerrilla warfare situations. It will likely come down to who has nothing left to lose.

I, for one, hope that those who control the destiny of our nation wake up soon and see the error of their ways, before it comes to that--but screwing with what little remains of our social safety nets is definitly NOT the way to go.

It's Spoken By ...................

MrBillM - 8-15-2011 at 05:37 PM

.........Someone who was smack in the middle of the '65 Watts riots and saw up close what the TRASH did to a decent neighborhood and to a lot of good people of every race.

If more of the Good Guys had done a lot more shooting sooner, a lot less damage would have been done.

NOBODY who hasn't been there has any concept of what it's like.