BajaNomad - Moving to Baja

Moving to Baja

byoungquist - 8-13-2011 at 02:40 PM

Hello!

I've got my FM3 and a 30 year lease (3x10 years) on some property south of San Quintin. This will be a second home. I want take a boat, motorcycle, storage building and personal items, including a refridgerator down in the next few weeks. I understand I have several months to do this with my FM3. Any advice or direction to internet sites as to documentation needed and other procedures to follow crossing from San Diego? I'll move everything with my own 18' covered trailer and 16' flatbed. I also plan to build a deck on the property; so...do I buy materials at Home Depot in Ensenada or bring my own across the border?

Thanks!

Bob

bajamedic - 8-13-2011 at 02:45 PM

Sorry no suggestions, but I am just a little jealous. JH :yes:

David K - 8-13-2011 at 03:12 PM

See Ron 'Baja Gringo' here and his own forum site http://TalkBaja.com with lots on building his home in San Quintin (on the beach opposite San Martin Island.).

nbacc - 8-13-2011 at 03:12 PM

You should get all the info you need from the kind people on this website..they really know all! We took all our stuff(household) in a covered trailer but no building materials. that might be your sticky point. good luck with it and I also am jealous as I would like to spend much more time in Mexico then I do, Nancy

30 year lease?

mcfez - 8-13-2011 at 04:21 PM

I'm not trolling here...but you got a 30 year lease in Mexico? Oh oh.......

By law, leases for terms of in excess of ten years are neither legal, nor valid in any Mexican court. Nor have they ever been, There is no such thing as a 99 year lease. Neither is a 10-10-10 renewable for 30 years. By Mexican law, no residential lease in excess of 10 years less a month is legal. Case closed!

Commercial Leases can be for up to 15 years, and industrial leases for up to 20 years.

This subject is the source of major differences here at BN....it's a on going debate.

Yes:
See Ron 'Baja Gringo' here and his own forum site http://TalkBaja.com with lots on building his home in San Quintin (on the beach opposite San Martin Island.).

[Edited on 8-13-2011 by mcfez]

DENNIS - 8-13-2011 at 04:38 PM

Hey Bob......no such thing as a thirty year lease. I wouldn't belabor this point 'cause it's already been mentioned although, I'm gonna tell you why.

These long term things have no clout in court. A lease....if that's what you think you have, [which you probably don't] is no better than a rental agreement and it's only good, in court of law, for ten years. [actually...probably never]

I say this to you in hopes that you don't invest your life in this lie. You control nothing and the more you invest, the more you may lose.

No protections......no laws....no reason to think as you do.

You came to the right place for clarification.

.

[Edited on 8-13-2011 by DENNIS]

byoungquist - 8-13-2011 at 05:59 PM

Here's the terms: the agreement is the same as about 20 other Americans have had for the past 30+ years in the same colony with no know issues. It's an agreement with the Mexican landowner, a good friend, that is comprised of a series of three 9 year 11 month leases. Upon expiration of each 9 year 11 month lease a new lease is renewed at a stated monthy rate...same thing for the third and final 9 year 11 month period. This process is very well described in the lease agreement. The agreement was prepared, registered and signed with a English speaking translator present at the the Notary #2 Office in Ensenada. As some of you may know, a Notary in Mexico is of the highest authority and legality. The registration fee was $150 US.

Now...how about some info on moving my stuff down there?

Thanks,

Bob

Katiejay99 - 8-13-2011 at 06:16 PM

When we brought our stuff down we bought a 16' flatbed and then built a wooden box onto it (enclosed it) and used that material when we took it apart upon arrival. I think, not sure, but perhaps they frown on you just hauling a bunch of lumber down.
Be sure you box any small items, number the boxes, prepare a list in English and Spanish relating to each box. When you get to the border, go to the declare lane and show them your FM3 and that should exempt you from importation taxes. I believe there is an import company right there as well, so if you have any problems, you could speak to them. We did have to pay an import company to help us because at that time we did not speak Spanish and needed their help.

The FM3-non importation taxes relates to ordinary household items including refrig, stove, washer, dryer, kitchen supplies, bathroom stuff, etc. If you are bringing in anything that even looks new, you will probably have to pay import taxes on those (bring the original sales receipt) Not sure about boats, etc. Make sure you have your ownership and registration
papers for all vehicles, trailers, boats, motorcycles, etc.

hope this helps.

J.P. - 8-13-2011 at 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by byoungquist
Here's the terms: the agreement is the same as about 20 other Americans have had for the past 30+ years in the same colony with no know issues. It's an agreement with the Mexican landowner, a good friend, that is comprised of a series of three 9 year 11 month leases. Upon expiration of each 9 year 11 month lease a new lease is renewed at a stated monthy rate...same thing for the third and final 9 year 11 month period. This process is very well described in the lease agreement. The agreement was prepared, registered and signed with a English speaking translator present at the the Notary #2 Office in Ensenada. As some of you may know, a Notary in Mexico is of the highest authority and legality. The registration fee was $150 US.

Now...how about some info on moving my stuff down there?

Thanks,

If you belive your lease is legal you probably wouldnt belive anything any of us told you either. So shoot your best shot and good luck.

[Edited on 8-14-2011 by J.P.]

DENNIS - 8-13-2011 at 07:15 PM

"If you belive your lease is legal you probably wouldnt belive anything any of us told you either. So shoot your best shot and good luck."
-------------------

In-***in-deed.
So....you know all about 'cause your buddys and your landlord said it was so.

Wake up and listen to those who know.

You are so typical of the marooonic expat that comes down here, with his US mindset, to design your buisness deals with Mexicans, thinking you have control.

You don't...

What you have to do is change your mindset. Once you pass through the border, it is no longer your world and you are the victim. You're acceptance of this fact will determine your future here.

Don't ever tell us about your special arraingement with a landlord because, we know how meaningless it is.

Do yourself a favor, Noob to Baja....listen to those who know.
If you think you know better...........fry in the pan.....which you will.

DENNIS - 8-13-2011 at 07:24 PM

In fact....don't move down here. You're too stoooopid to asimilate and you would embarrass me if you tried.
If you need to live in Mexico....move to Los Angeles.

mcfez - 8-13-2011 at 07:32 PM

Quote:

Hey Bob...

Some of us have been in Baja for "ever". Some...not. I can tell you from fact...that I own and lease in Mexico.....and not just Baja.....that you have a serious issue. There are many investors that have been doomed....exactly as you are set up to be.....with official docs and assumptions. We are just attempting to convey a message to you...that the law is the law......as some of us have spoken here.

I encourage you to contact the Mexican Embassy or Consulates in the United States....and ask them of this simple question....what is the legal limits of a lease.

Where I live in San Felipe....we got retired school teachers to business owners....and half of them believe that they got 20 year terms!

Dont believe us here...go ask yourself.

[Edited on 8-14-2011 by mcfez]

DENNIS - 8-13-2011 at 07:32 PM

Oh....sorry. Someone reminded me that I didn't say, "assshole."

I apologize.

Maybe a home on Catalina Island would suit you?????

You could have a Mexican maid........or pool cleaner. Whatever you crave.

AMF

byoungquist - 8-13-2011 at 07:52 PM

Well, excuse me! Guess I'll try another forum.

Adios!

Bob

PS: I've been going to Baja since 1971 and spend several months down there every year hunting and fishing. My casa on "my property" will start out as a 5th wheel trailer.

Great site for Mexico info

Stickers - 8-13-2011 at 07:56 PM

Good luck with your project -

http://www.rollybrook.com/Page%20Directory.htm

mcfez - 8-13-2011 at 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by byoungquist
Well, excuse me! Guess I'll try another forum.

Adios!

Bob

PS: I've been going to Baja since 1971 and spend several months down there every year hunting and fishing. My casa on "my property" will start out as a 5th wheel trailer.

Now look what you did DENNIS! I bet you be blaming this Bob guy for taking your garbage cans too

[Edited on 8-14-2011 by mcfez]

byoungquist - 8-13-2011 at 08:26 PM

I think I'll hang around for a while; this forum is kind of fun.

Cheers!

Bob
San Diego

"Numerous studies have show that a large percentage of forum posters are either stoned or drunk."

:lol:

mcfez - 8-13-2011 at 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by byoungquist
I think I'll hang around for a while; this forum is kind of fun.

Cheers!

Bob
San Diego

"Numerous studies have show that a large percentage of forum posters are either stoned or drunk."

:lol:

So......since you are here...this study includes you, yes? :lol:

Lighten up Dude...we were just trying to help you.

[Edited on 8-14-2011 by mcfez]

byoungquist - 8-13-2011 at 08:48 PM

Touche!

Bob
San Diego

byoungquist - 8-13-2011 at 09:07 PM

Diana T, is that an x-rate picture of you?...I'm simple confirming my previous premise re: a high percentage of posters to forms. I think I'll have one more and retire for the evening.

Seriously, thanks to all except DENNIS.

Cheers!

Bob

DENNIS - 8-13-2011 at 09:08 PM

hahahahaha...........Ol' Bob is just another victim of the "USA is the only way" syndrome.
Live and learn, Bobby. Keep your wheels on your investment....especially around that ten year point in time.

DENNIS - 8-13-2011 at 09:14 PM

When we're all done with this....bring back my trash can. I know you took it and I want it back.
Empty....please.

Jeeesus Christos...

Dave - 8-13-2011 at 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Keep your wheels on your investment....especially around that ten year point in time.

You guys are hard corps.

It's not like he bet the farm or is building a mansion.

If there ever was a poster boy for "never investing more than you can afford to lose"...

He's it. :rolleyes:

DENNIS - 8-13-2011 at 09:20 PM

Bite Me...........

I'm going to bed.........

G'nite.

bajamigo - 8-13-2011 at 09:23 PM

Picky, picky.

DENNIS - 8-13-2011 at 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajamigo
Picky, picky.

I went to bed so I won't see this 'til tomorrow.

SFandH - 8-14-2011 at 07:13 AM

Bob,

Did you find the responses helpful? :lol:

Ask the Mexican customs people at the border about importing your stuff and a Mexican real estate attorney (Ensenada yellow pages or better a referral) about your lease. Take a translator with you if needed.

This message board is best for travel information.

[Edited on 8-14-2011 by SFandH]

Pescador - 8-14-2011 at 08:04 AM

If you have not done a prior declaration on your load, it will not count on your one-time importation of your household goods. It will not allow you multiple trips to haul your stuff down. You will find that you will get all the questions if you contact the Embassy in San Diego and they can get you the proper paperwork and forms.

If you decide to just haul it down yourself, you need to make a list of what you are importing and what is on your load and then you declare those items and pay an import tax on them. Last I did was at 16% of declared value. The new importation agents at the border are college educated and have computers with approximate values of millions of different items so do not try to play too loosely with the values or they will adjust accordingly.

Finally, you actually have a 9 year 11 month least if it is registered with a Notario. It is legally adjustable by the owner if he decides to raise your raites at "automatic renewal". He may not know that and you may be saved by his "ignorance" of the law, but he may also be like a lot of the landlords that all of the posters have experience with and may get himself educated before renewal takes place. The law is pretty clear about this issue so you would not have legal recourse if he decides not to renew or raise the rates at that time. But you can legally remove your belongings from his property in that situation.

Sorry that you got the buzzsaw with your question as the responses are usually not quite so acerbic to this issue and good luck with your venture. You are doing the right thing by asking a lot of questions and you just have to throw out the bad answers.

BajaGringo - 8-14-2011 at 08:30 AM

Somehow I always end up being late to the party on these threads...

Bob - there is some good advice here along with the usual jabs tossed towards newbies who try to swim against the current. Those posters who told you that you legally only have a ten year lease are correct. The notario who handled your leases was only providing a legal affirmation that those who signed the documents were who they said they were, nothing else. Mexican courts have showed a long history of upholding the law that limits leases to a maximum of ten years, when challenged.

If you have a good landowner who is a man of his word, there is no reason to believe that he wouldn't go ahead and honor the second and third ten year leases. Lots of Gringos down here have enjoyed such relationships over the years. I recently talked to a guy whose dad started leasing from a landowner back in the 50's and now he is getting ready to pass it onto his kids. It's really great when that works out.

But now let's say the landowner decides to sell the land or God forbid, passes away and the property passes onto other family members. They will be under no legal obligation to honor either the second or third lease - that is what others here are trying to explain to you.

So before you go spending too much money on anything down here, do so only with the understanding that in ten years it "might" not renew. You will not be able to force them to do so legally.

So, let's try to get back to your original question...

Are you leasing property that already has a house or will you be building? If you are just bringing down household items and live in the San Diego area I would suggest just making a few trips with the stuff on the back of a pickup and there is a very good chance that you will just be waved through - especially if it is used. If you have more and will need to be using a trailer I would suggest crossing at Tecate and contracting a customs broker there for a very reasonable fee and they will handle it. Other forum members have done just that, bringing down some high dollar solar gear and tell us that is the way to go.

So welcome to the forum and to my little region of the peninsula that I have come to love so much. It sounds like you will be down in the Socorro area maybe?

drarroyo - 8-14-2011 at 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
In fact....don't move down here. You're too stoooopid to asimilate and you would embarrass me if you tried.
If you need to live in Mexico....move to Los Angeles.

so sad. poor guy.
Bob in San Diego! It would appear you're quite capable of the necessary research to minimise any future drama! Welcome, and other than the trash... there's also plenty of good folks with good advice.
Suerte!

larryC - 8-14-2011 at 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
Somehow I always end up being late to the party on these threads...

Bob - there is some good advice here along with the usual jabs tossed towards newbies who try to swim against the current. Those posters who told you that you legally only have a ten year lease are correct. The notario who handled your leases was only providing a legal affirmation that those who signed the documents were who they said they were, nothing else. Mexican courts have showed a long history of upholding the law that limits leases to a maximum of ten years, when challenged.

If you have a good landowner who is a man of his word, there is no reason to believe that he wouldn't go ahead and honor the second and third ten year leases. Lots of Gringos down here have enjoyed such relationships over the years. I recently talked to a guy whose dad started leasing from a landowner back in the 50's and now he is getting ready to pass it onto his kids. It's really great when that works out.

But now let's say the landowner decides to sell the land or God forbid, passes away and the property passes onto other family members. They will be under no legal obligation to honor either the second or third lease - that is what others here are trying to explain to you.

So before you go spending too much money on anything down here, do so only with the understanding that in ten years it "might" not renew. You will not be able to force them to do so legally.

So, let's try to get back to your original question...

Are you leasing property that already has a house or will you be building? If you are just bringing down household items and live in the San Diego area I would suggest just making a few trips with the stuff on the back of a pickup and there is a very good chance that you will just be waved through - especially if it is used. If you have more and will need to be using a trailer I would suggest crossing at Tecate and contracting a customs broker there for a very reasonable fee and they will handle it. Other forum members have done just that, bringing down some high dollar solar gear and tell us that is the way to go.

So welcome to the forum and to my little region of the peninsula that I have come to love so much. It sounds like you will be down in the Socorro area maybe?

Ron gave you the answer that I would have. Your relationship with land owner is good now, but when and if you start having to deal with the family members things can change.
As far as importing your house hold goods, there is a form that you can fill out which is a one time duty free pass to bring all your household goods accross the border. I forget what that is called but it used to cost about $125 us. It may be worh your time to go to the consulate and get one. The last couple of years the customs people have been turning pjeople around that have too much building materials. It mght be easier to get the stuff at Homedepot in Ensenada and haul it from there.
Good luck with your new place.
Larry

BajaBlanca - 8-14-2011 at 09:56 AM

wow ...this is one hot issue .... and because it seems relevant, I have a story to tell:

we just had a Mexican LOPEZ family member staying with us. He told us a story that really shocked me. His family and about 49 others lived in Rancho Lopez between Rosarito and Ensenada for muchos anos and one day someone showed up with a paper saying that where they lived was not theirs, but was actually apart of land DEEDED from SPAIN (I kid you not) and when it went to court, they "won" !! All the families were kicked out. And a huge development went up with big houses.

so, the bottom line is, is anyone's home safe ??????? How do you argue land deeded in the 1800's .... right?

toneart - 8-14-2011 at 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stickers
Good luck with your project -

http://www.rollybrook.com/Page%20Directory.htm

This looks like a thorough website with many valuable references.Bookmark it! :light:

DianaT - 8-14-2011 at 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
wow ...this is one hot issue .... and because it seems relevant, I have a story to tell:

we just had a Mexican LOPEZ family member staying with us. He told us a story that really shocked me. His family and about 49 others lived in Rancho Lopez between Rosarito and Ensenada for muchos anos and one day someone showed up with a paper saying that where they lived was not theirs, but was actually apart of land DEEDED from SPAIN (I kid you not) and when it went to court, they "won" !! All the families were kicked out. And a huge development went up with big houses.

so, the bottom line is, is anyone's home safe ??????? How do you argue land deeded in the 1800's .... right?

Is anyone's home safe? I think not---some safer than others, but the possibility of a land dispute is always there.

Leasing, I believe is one of the least safe, but some people have done it for years and years with no problems. As others have said, problems often happen when the owner dies.

There is a rather large development near where Bob is leasing where the people thought they had 10, 20, 30 or even lifetime leases. They were very sure the owner and his family were honorable so they built very nice homes. The owner was killed in an automobile accident and............... well, no need for the rest of the story except to say that it cost them a good deal of money to save their homes.

BTW---they knew that the long term leases, or the short ones with automatic renewal were not "legal", but they were not worried because they trusted the owner.

It really is all about one's tolerance for risk -----

[Edited on 8-14-2011 by DianaT]

byoungquist - 8-14-2011 at 10:31 AM

DianaT, Shari has an open invitation for me to visit Bahia Ascuncion. I had thought about moving my 5th wheel down there. I also have a large camper on a 4x4 truck, all self contained with a generator. Where would a nice secluded place be to park that rig near the Bay?

Thanks,

Bob
San Diego

byoungquist - 8-14-2011 at 10:53 AM

Ladies and Gentlemen:

This has been an interesting experience. Thanks to all, including DENNIS, for your concerns and thoughts.

I guess I have 9 year, 11 month lease with renewals at the mercy of the landowner. Fortunately, the landowner is a "friend" and his oldest son is my hunting partner. The 1/2 acre lease starts at a nominal monthly amount and the terms of the "lease" allow the monthly figure to double at the beginning of the subsequent 10 year terms. So...I think everyone will be happy; also, my investment will be minimal and mobile.

Thanks again,

Bob
San Diego

DianaT - 8-14-2011 at 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by byoungquist
DianaT, Shari has an open invitation for me to visit Bahia Ascuncion. I had thought about moving my 5th wheel down there. I also have a large camper on a 4x4 truck, all self contained with a generator. Where would a nice secluded place be to park that rig near the Bay?

Thanks,

Bob
San Diego

Bob, if you are doing business with Shari, she would be the best person for you to ask.

Quote:

Originally posted by byoungquist
........ my investment will be minimal and mobile.

Thanks again,

Bob
San Diego

IMHO, a good idea for the leased land.

[Edited on 8-14-2011 by DianaT]

DENNIS - 8-14-2011 at 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by byoungquist
This has been an interesting experience. Thanks to all, including DENNIS, for your concerns and thoughts.

You good experience here on the board is my utmost concern.

Welcome to BajaNomad. :biggrin:

shari - 8-14-2011 at 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by byoungquist
"Numerous studies have show that a large percentage of forum posters are either stoned or drunk."

do I hear a poll starting????

Seriously....welcome to Nomadlandia youngquist and I wish you all the best in your move! I highly recommend making amigos with bajagringo...
your "agreement" is a very common one which seems great when it's made. Unfortunately sh$t happens in the families who made those agreements and your legal "rights" can be thrown out with the basura....but baja is often worth the risk and everything turns out just dandy....or not!
Enjoy...sorry I cant help with your original question as I just bought all my stuff in segundas down here.

BajaGringo - 8-14-2011 at 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by byoungquist
I guess I have 9 year, 11 month lease with renewals at the mercy of the landowner. Fortunately, the landowner is a "friend" and his oldest son is my hunting partner.

Bob - it sounds there is a high probability that you may be one of those who will enjoy a long term leasing agreement down here. It happens a lot - we just rarely hear those stories. They don't make news like the occasional situation where people don't end up so happy.

You know how it goes - good news is no news.

The story I shared with you about the guy whose dad originally leased back in the 50's also shared with me that they had developed an extremely close relationship with the landowners over the years. He and his wife were godparents to the first grandson of the landowner and he also told me they haven't actually signed a lease going back three decades to the 80's. Nothing but handshake deals ever since.

It does work out for many - everybody here just wants you to understand the risks and now it sounds like you do. Also remember there are many others who read these threads for information and may not be so lucky as you.

Have fun and keep us posted of your progress...

Ron

mcfez - 8-14-2011 at 02:05 PM

Well Bob...
I think we have another great member that just joined us...you!
Am happy that your eyes are wide open.

I am one of the lucky dogs here. We have a home over in San Felipe in Campos Ocotillo. This property is one of our leases. We "bought" the parcel, built the house, and we are happy happy - joy joy with the deal. We did indeed understood that it was a ten year lease. Adding up the Hotel fees and all that....over ten years...it was cheaper to build the house than to rent out hotel rooms!

Now.....change of command took place a year or two ago. We are lucky that Salvadoran had his youngest education daughter take over the campos. She's great! However..If she marries...we are concerned because the male may be the one in charge.......

Just be prepared for a dark day in the far future.

The next issue you'll might face is hiring help for those projects you may have line up. I suggest you come back here to the Q and A and ask a LOT of questions before hiring a day labor to a house keeper. It's a real issue in Baja currently.

Now.....are you the one that stole DENNIS's garbage can?

Pescador - 8-15-2011 at 07:06 AM

The other complication comes from the fact that if the landowner dies, unless he has a formal will designating who will be in charge of his property, in Mexico it is split equally between the wife and the children. So you can end up with a family squabble which changes the whole situation almost overnight. I had a good friend who had a "long term lease" and when the owner died the new owners had to honor the 9 year 11 month lease, but they sold everything including the property at the end of that period to a developer.

byoungquist - 8-15-2011 at 10:33 AM

Thanks, Pescador, more good info.

Yah, I have Dennis' garbage cans. I think I'll ride down and "deliver" them personally.

Cheers!

Bob

Martyman - 8-15-2011 at 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Your previous responses certainly sound like this.

[Edited on 8-14-2011 by DianaT]

what is it with the troll remarks? you're a troll! no, you're a troll.
I'm calling you an ogre.

Now THAT is how you give someone advice.....

Borregoman - 8-15-2011 at 03:43 PM

Intelligent and extremely accurate advice delivered in a non-judgemental manner. Always a pleasure to read your posts.....

Quote:

jakecard - 8-15-2011 at 04:27 PM

Borregoman makes an excellent observation. But then again . . .

Who wouldn't expect sage advice from a guy with the most demonstrably wise avatar in cyberspace?

A true curator of humanity, that BajaGringo. And a selfless savior of this site. Praise God.

Jake

jakecard - 8-15-2011 at 04:32 PM

By the way, cute troll, Diane.

Jake

shari - 8-15-2011 at 06:05 PM

such insight jake!!! and I can vouch personally that mrgringo is every bit as cool as his avatar....very well put mrgringo about leasing.

Now Bob...there arent many secluded spots by the bay in Asuncion as the bay is surrounded by town...but there are some nice spots you can park your RV...you can lease a lot or buy one or make friends with someone who will let you share their lot. Bajagypsy would be a good neighbour (if you can handle wild and crazy canadians!!!)

Anywhere you choose, you will like the village...especially in the summer.

DianaT - 8-15-2011 at 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jakecard
By the way, cute troll, Diane.

Jake

I thought so----but Bob came though and proved not to be a troll--a good thing.

[Edited on 8-16-2011 by DianaT]

woody with a view - 8-15-2011 at 06:17 PM

yep, Shari is legit. i've swung and missed once. got ideas but never pulled the trigger. like someone once said, buy now before the babyboomers buy it all up.