BajaNomad

Loreto Bay Update

LaTijereta - 9-12-2004 at 07:03 AM

We just got some updated information on what is going on "South of Loreto"...One encouraging thing is the new fight with Alaska airlines if it happens:D

From their PR release...

Federal, State and Municipal building permits and land use permits have been issued and our first sales of lots has completed so building has begun for our first phase!
The British Columbia Full Prospectus and the Arizona Public Report have been approved and issued. This is great news as it means now that all buyers may enter into an agreement to purchase homes at Loreto Bay. Copies of the full prospectus and public report are available for review.
Great news an agreement with Alaska Airlines will service Loreto International Airport twice a week direct non-stop from Los Angeles (LAX), commencing Thursday February 13, 2005. Alaska Airlines will also promote Loreto Bay as part of their vacation packages this winter and their in-flight magazine will feature articles about this exciting new destination for Alaska Airlines.
The Master Plan also includes two golf courses. We are pleased to announce that Troon Golf has been retained to manage golf course operations at The Villages of Loreto Bay. The existing golf course will be redesigned by PGA Tour professional David Duval and his partner Tom Weber through their new company, Duval Design.
The Beach Club Architectural design team of Hill Glazier Architects, Palo Alto California is completing the design of what will undoubtedly be a world-class facility. The firm specializes in the design of hotels, resorts, golf clubhouses and spas. This firm is extremely prestigious in the California market: they have received numerous awards and acclaim from national and international publications. In addition, they possess strong experience in traditional Mexican architecture through their work with Javier Garay of Tauega in Mexico City.
Allen+Philp Architects, Scottsdale, Arizona have been retained to design the first spa at The Villages of Loreto Bay. This Scottsdale firm, established in 1976, possesses extensive background in the design and programming of resorts and spas. Their work may be found in Spain, Mexico and the United States.
We continue to grow as a company. Over the summer The Loreto Bay Company have added numerous administrative staff, and a ten new sales associates. The San Diego, CA; Scottsdale, AZ; Mexico City, MX; Victoria, BC and Loreto, BCS Sales offices are now fully operational.



elizabeth - 9-12-2004 at 12:16 PM

They need TWO golf courses???? Isn't the fertilizer and herbicide runoff bad enough from one...
It doesn't mention where the water will come from to keep all that grass green.

"Where is the Water?"

Skeet/Loreto - 9-12-2004 at 01:29 PM

Great News?

capn.sharky - 9-12-2004 at 03:37 PM

Really, what is so great about it? I think it is awful news. Tijereta, you have a nice home in Loreto. You have been going there a long time....why do you think this is great news? Maybe you know something I don't. I would like your views. It is possible I have not thought of something positive in this project. Please share with us.

Don Alley - 9-12-2004 at 03:46 PM

Don Alley - 9-12-2004 at 03:50 PM

oops!

Well, I guess the Alaska Air route is good news for me, depending on scheduling.

But I'd rather walk, if it meant Loreto Bay would go away.

Reminds me of the Flathead in Montana. After over 30 years here, the sprawl and traffic are just too much.

I need a time machine.

YOU KNOW THE GOLF WILL BE PHASED!

capt. mike - 9-12-2004 at 04:49 PM

Come on...there will not be 2 courses until enough peoples will be there to justify it!

so relax everybody...this will happen slowly at best. But, be reminded there are some real heavyweights involved...this deal is very secure.

Don't shoot the messenger

LaTijereta - 9-12-2004 at 05:00 PM

I thought the info on the Alaska flights was good news, not to mention additional people being able to work at the airport:)
Who knows how long Aerocal will be around going into next year?

Now Listen Up!

Skeet/Loreto - 9-12-2004 at 05:39 PM

Fellow Posters, there is nothin you or I can do to stop the progress of Loreto Bay villages. It is happening, it is a matter of Time!. us old hands had some of the Best Part of Loreto, the Bitteroot, The Madison, The Big Hole. Let them have it in their Generation, They will Learn,They will get ripped off, They will never know the difference!!

Money is Their God!
Communication is Their need!
Most could not "Hit a Bull in the Ass with a Base Fiddle".

Sharkey: Beauty is in the eyes of the Beholder" can you imagine one of those new Residents having the Ability to learn to know some of the locals?
How Sad!

Skeet/Loreto

"In God I Trust"

Skeet is right

capn.sharky - 9-12-2004 at 07:32 PM

But, it is just so sad. A wonderful lady, now in her 80's, named Ann O'Neil wrote the history of Loreto. I guess the least I can do is hang around to write the obituary. Tijereta, I wasn't trying to shoot anybody---just wanted to find our what was the good new. I suspected the new airline was it. From what I understand, Aerocalifornia has been given the word by LAX that if they don't start bringing in newer planes as the current fleet (now about 35 years old) is not up to FAA safety standards. Is there anyplace like Loreto left in Baja? Preferably on the Sea of Cortez. Quiet with such nice Mexican families. Not much crime and still Mexican? My e-mail is listed as capn.sharky@verizon.net and I would love a recommendation. What a bummer, man.

David K - 9-12-2004 at 10:28 PM

Bahia de los Angeles... Maybe next in line... but not without water, cheap water.

wilderone - 9-13-2004 at 09:41 AM

Talk, talk, talk. Personally, I think they're getting desparate. They're saying all the right things to appease all the concerns. ok - so they've got some transportation lined up. However, it is a certainly that if the airline cannot make a profit on that route, they will not continue service. Environmental concerns? Well, they seemed to think they have their bases covered by announcing that they have a memorandum of understanding with OceanAlliance and a promise (talk) to create a marine laboratory. I contacted Ocean Alliance to corraborate this bit of news, and their response was "While
on site we did talk about a marine research centre, but currently I do not
see a Marine Research Centre in the short term plans for the facility - I
believe that this component is now on hold." Apparently the developers spent a lot of money flying people to the site to try to impress them with their talk, as a means to be able to greenwash their plans with their ostensible collaboration with some respectable enviro organization. The fact remains that they're going to destroy the area.

No matter how "heavy"

jrbaja - 9-13-2004 at 10:49 AM

of a weight" they think they are, they don't know didly about Baja. They are in it purely for the $$, same as all developers and the difference here is, este es Baja!!
People will get ripped off. Then they will whine that they got ripped off. Then the truth will come out and Loreto Bay will look just like Punta Banda and Puerto Escondido. :lol:
At least, if there is a god that will happen. What do you think Skeet?
People still vote for the u.s.presidents knowing full well they are lieing. Guess the same goes for developers. Or else the buyers are just dumber n rocks in spite of their $$:lol:

wilderone - 9-13-2004 at 10:59 AM

Question: "Is there anyplace like Loreto left in Baja?"
Answer: NO. That's the whole point.
Shame on FONATUR.

jk - 9-13-2004 at 05:08 PM

Again, where is the water coming from? JK

Gentlemen and Posters!

Skeet/Loreto - 9-13-2004 at 05:32 PM

Tio Don O'Neil and I were Partners in the Land North of La Pinta. Virginia and I built "Rancho sonrisa" on our Half.
I was sitting on Tio's Porch when Ann walked by and waved at Tio, resulting in a realationship and Marriage and the Book about Loreto.

Virginia and i watched as the "New Presidente was built and the Developer started bring in the Canadians from Detroit 2 times a Week, it lasted about 6 months. It was never Full except when George Bush came down for a Visit and Ford Motor Co. put on a weekend conference/Show.

There is no place Like Loreto!! Just as there is no other Place like the Sea of Cortez.

JR , our Culture at this time is constructed on "Love for Money", many of the young have been developed into "Followers" with out the Ability to think outside of their own small World. The few that have the Ability to lead others will use that Ability to make money without regard for the outcome.

San Nicholas has good water and Location but is Ejido property. It will stay small for awhile because of the road.

Our World has changed my friends.

Skeet/Loreto

"In God I Trust'

Ann O'Neil

David K - 9-13-2004 at 06:41 PM

Here is Ann and copies of her book, at my Viva Baja 3 party.

Sweetest of Ladies

capn.sharky - 9-14-2004 at 09:31 AM

She is the best and the sweetest little lady I have met in many a year. I can thank Graham MacIntosh for helping me meet her. She dispelled many a myth I learned over the 30 plus years I have been in and out of Loreto. I just can't say enough good things about her. If she was single and I was about 15 years older.....well you know. Love at first sight. Oh, I guess I would have to be single too. Couldn't do that as mine is the other sweetest one. Okay, okay, so the sharkman has a heart after all. Just don't like them Canadians (and frenchy's).

a good article about it in today's

capt. mike - 9-14-2004 at 09:43 AM

Phx Az. Republic. i don't know how to lionk the article off the web (help Mateo!)

do any of you nay sayers know that the plan calls for dedicating 5000 out of the total 8000 AC TO PRESERVE open space?

Would you rather have it done under some other scheme not considering the environmental impact?

ok Wilderone and JR.....i am ready for major slammage! ;D:coolup::moon::light:

Steve in Oro Valley - 9-14-2004 at 10:40 AM

One noticeable thing:

Doug Mackaroff, a canadian, was a planner of the Civano project (Tucson) (a model for sustainable urban planning, work where you live, solar energy, native landscaping, water conservation, etc. ).

If he stays involved, this could be a really different kind of development.

No high rise condos, they say in their initial promotion, but rather "romantic villages". One question: Do we really need 2 golf courses??

I am interested.

Steve in Oro Valley

how about the mexicans

jerry - 9-14-2004 at 10:45 AM

Has anyone thought about the effects of this project on the real mexicans in the loreto area?? has anyone asked them??
I hear that all developers are money grubbers welll i think that if it wasnt for devlopers we would all be living in caves
Most of us are a product of some kind of development and thats what affords us the oppertunity to be able to even spend time in loreto. What the matter with the mexican people getting a break? Letting them benifit from development? Remember we are a guests in there country. Too many gringoes sound like they think they should run it. If they had the chance it would be the same mess as we made in the states. The additude of I got mine now screw you isnt native to the mexican people. I think they deserve there chance for progress hopefullly they wont learn too mutch from the gringoes Ill bet that the mexican ppl will will benifet from this project in many ways

tim40 - 9-14-2004 at 11:58 AM

Great questions Jerry, and yes I have asked many of them and encourage others to do the same. Unfortunately, there is good and bad in all from Tequila to diamonds. One only has to look south of town in Loreto to see bad...and that is also from the locals point of view. Too often the developers are hit and run in Mexico and the locals receive minimal to nothing in the longer term on a net level.

If you read some of my own responses from other strings, I have suggested the only real solution short of 'board venting' is to establish a corp or holding company and do it ourselves or hold it in current condition. It will happen, it is not even a question of when anymore...

Loreto Bay...what else?

flyfishinPam - 9-14-2004 at 12:43 PM

In the beginning I was all for this project, for many reasons. Now I have some doubts that are coming from the gut.

The first negative gut feeling came in June while I was delivering fish to clients who were staying at the El Camino Real. The last sales meeting of the season had just ended and I was able to walk around and see the mapped out plan. I immediately saw the kind of folks that will be owners of these new homes. It smelled of money and I haven't had that sense of money smell since I lived in New England. I looked at the plan and in it I saw where the homes will be going and where the commercial properties and storefronts will be. I own a successful business in Loreto but will I be able to afford to rent or buy there if I want to? Probably not, and I wondered who would. Outsiders displacing even me, and outsider myself. I have to admit its intimidating.

I met with the VP of destination marketing for LB, about their plans to start selling Loreto and the Loreto Bay "destination". This portion of their website will be online just before the first of the year. Mind you, there is not one house constructed yet.

I correcdt myself, Oh yes there is! On their webiste are images of their model home....

.....located in Victoria, BC Canada!

One building has been started and its coming along very slowly, I'd say less than 20% complete.

Last week, I was invited as a local purveyor of sportfishing as they want to work with everyone in town. I agreed with a lot of what they told me and really liked their ideas, but I couldn't help thinking...where are these houses anyway and when will they be put in?

As a travel agent I do not ever promote a product that I don't have "on hand". Most folks who book a trip will be coming within a year and want confirmationis immediately.

-solamente mi viente centavos.

elizabeth - 9-14-2004 at 12:47 PM

I've asked too...and what I have been told is that the developers were importing labor from the mainland because they weren't paying wages that Loreto locals can afford to work for. Don't know whether this is true or not...but that is the perception of some local people. There are also local people, even some that work in the tourist industry that are worried about environmental destruction. This is not a Mexican corporation keeping the money in the country...and developments do not always benefit local residents.

Mainlanders!

flyfishinPam - 9-14-2004 at 01:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elizabeth
...and what I have been told is that the developers were importing labor from the mainland because they weren't paying wages that Loreto locals can afford to work for. Don't know whether this is true or not...but that is the perception of some local people.


this is something FONATUR has always done. for a recent example, El Camino Real was started in 1999 and we watched as the construction slowly got accomplished. mainland workers have a work ethic that far surpasses most loretanos and that's a fact. they are mostly men of working age that live together in shanty rooming quarters. they're busses to and from the site as by law. the locals here will not work for that kind of lousy loot and in those conditions...sounds familiar?, wow
Quote:

There are also local people, even some that work in the tourist industry that are worried about environmental destruction. ....


the local people are old fashioned and intimidated by the own shadow in the wake of competition (and this is how they see LB). they have not taken the time to educate themselves or their children and cannot keep with the times as a result.

mainlanders in Loreto are a good thing. the Loretano blood needs some mixing of chromosomes and ideas. my husband is from the mainland, worked construction for FONATUR 20 years ago. helped build CSL and is now in Loreto raising a new generation of six Mu?ozes that will not follow the local cycle.

Now I wonder what kind of DNA Loreto Bay will bring in?;D

Don Alley - 9-14-2004 at 04:58 PM

Some of this seems familiar...similar to northwest Montana, where I have lived for over 30 years. Waves of monied outsiders, paying high prices for fancy homes beyond the reach of many of the locals. Housing, land, construction prices soar. Access to fishing and waterfront is lost.

Locally owned businesses are withering away. You see the guy that sold you you first fridge from his family's store years ago selling appliances at Home Depot.

Seems to me the potential customers of Loreto Bay are so insistent of being insulated from Mexico and Mexicans that they are paying a huge premium in land and construction costs. It is so inefficient, making a real estate deal that includes supporting sales offices in 4 cities, all those white pickups driving around town...

Then again, I may be as much of a problem, buying a place right in town. Maybe the Americans and Canadians are better put in their own enclaves out of town. :)

Our Loreto neighbors are so cool, though. Bet Loreto Bay can't match that. ("wait until you meet the neighbors"):biggrin:

TMW - 9-14-2004 at 05:26 PM

From an AZ paper.

Valley developer creating Baja seaside resort


Loreto Bay Co.
What: Real estate firm that is developing a mixed-used village project in Loreto Bay, Mexico.
Headquarters: Scottsdale.
Employees: 75.
President and CEO: Jim Grogan.


Craig Harris
The Arizona Republic
Sept. 14, 2004 12:00 AM


Please forgive Jim Grogan if he becomes a bit giddy about his latest real estate project.

Selling homes in a place that he describes as a paradise can do that to a guy.

The Valley attorney, developer and former chairman of the Arizona Sports and Tourism Authority is now running the Loreto Bay Co., which is developing a $3 billion mixed-use project along the Mexican seaside in the Baja California Sur.

Scheduled for completion in 15 years, the plan calls for 5,000 homes, resort hotels, a golf club, beach spas and retail businesses near the Sea of Cortez. About 5,000 acres of the 8,000-acre project will be reserved for greenspace.

"What's most appealing is the spectacular, natural beauty of the area," Grogan said. "The people of Baja call it the place where the mountains come to swim."

Grogan's Scottsdale-based company, which was formed about 18 months ago, began selling homes in Loreto Bay, Mexico, in November 2003. Since then, buyers from the United States, Canada and Mexico have bought 150 homes, he said.

"Our buyers are the greatest sales force," Grogan said.

Grogan said most of the buyers are baby boomers looking for resort-style living, and homes, which range from 1,200 to 3,000 square feet, cost between $200,000 and $1 million.

Grogan said buyers hear about the project through word of mouth and some advertising. His company also has offices in Mexico City, San Diego and Victoria, British Columbia.

Once a month, the Loreto Bay Co. flies in clients, who pay their own way for transportation and lodging, for a weekend sale. But before boarding a plane, a customer must put $5,000 into an escrow account.

"I joke that it's our way of at least having them fake that they are interested," Grogan said.

Grogan also said there are about 65 investors in the project, including 25 from metro Phoenix. He said the equity investors have put up to $200,000 each in the project.

He added that another thing that has made the project appealing to buyers is that the Mexican government has thrown its support behind Loreto Bay and other Mexican developments that promote tourism.

FONATUR, Mexico's tourism authority, has spent about $200 million on infrastructure, including an international airport. And Grogan said last week that he attended a business leaders breakfast with Mexican President Vicente Fox, who also has supported the project.

"His message was that Mexico is open for business," Grogan said.



Reach the reporter at craig.harris@arizonarepublic.com or (602) 444-8995.

wilderone - 9-14-2004 at 05:39 PM

Contrary to popular belief (!) I have nothing against development - it's the destruction of pristine, unique, ecologically sensitive regions that I oppose. Why can't the Loreto Bay development be constructed in Loreto, and leave the Bay alone as an amenity of the town? The Civano project was built for people who WORK and LIVE full time in the development. There's not that much going for its "sustainability" other than some solar hot water heaters, home-based solar power generation, and a neighborhood nursery that the residents take care of, and they use reclaimed water for landscaping. That project also had the support of the City of Tucson, Fannie Mae and the State of Arizona to make it happen. The objectives of the Civano project differ from Loreto Bay entirely. The Civano objectives, which essentially been been unmet, are: stores within walking distance, an auto-competitive transit service providing service to the entire urban area, a mix of housing prices, including low cost housing, 7 units per acre minimum, does not contribute to suburbanization, provides a balance of jobs and residences reduces necessity to commute by automobile, and "market oriented development", i.e., no subsidies or tax breaks. In contrast, Loreto Bay is being built as a "destination" for 2nd home owners and vacationers. Therefore, any ostensible successes of Civano could hardly be a basis for presuming any success in Baja California. The Bamberton project was another project of David Butterfield's - the President of the Trust for Sustainable Development - who also planned Civano. Bamberton was also planned to create a strong "sense of place", houses built within walking distance of a village centre; houses built close up to encourage conversation, pedestrian-friendly, narrow streets, back lanes for car access, town center on the waterfront for cultural and business activities. "It was being designed to engender human community, a sense of belonging, and a positive vision of the future; to embody ecological sustainability, community values, traditional village-style neighborhoods and its own local economy." (SOUND FAMILIAR?). They took out their rubber stamp and created the Loreto Bay development. However, due to political and financial difficulties, the Bamberton project was SCRAPPED ENTIRELY. It was criticized by a body of AIA architects as having too much paving, units lack orientation to a view due to its flatness, lack of on-site community members in later stages of the project for planning participation, a questionable sewage treatment system, no source-separation recyling, inappropriate architectural styles ("any attempt to recreate 'tradition' creates a false facade"), the "open space" was virtually unusable, and any usable was otherwise developed, the energy performance projections fell short of what should be sought and expected. The report went on to state: "What's missing: A major element of sustainability which seems to be missing from most projects is the spiritual dimensions of our surroundings. ost of our worst social ills, as well as the misapplication of our technologies, are 'diseases of the spirit' arising out of lack of self esteem, mutual respect, and being of value to family and community. The resolving of these 'diseases of the spirit' is a key dimensin of sustainability, and has significant impacts on physical planning and architecture as well as the cultural dimension of the community." Another element not reviewed by the developers of Bamberton was the economic development aspect of the project - how the project will support or compete with the existing economic base, use local resources, small businesses, etc. I can't see that the Loreto Bay project has considered, refined or resolved any of the criteria by which the Bamberton project failed. The project isn't about what's good for Mexicans in Mexico - it's all about the profit margin of the developers at the expense of what Loreto and its people stand for.

Loreto Bay?

capn.sharky - 9-14-2004 at 10:09 PM

I have heard of Loreto and Nopolo and Puerto Escondido, but until these Cannuks came, I never heard of Loreto Bay. However, I have an idea. Since the Canadians have to park away from there so-called Mexican home, and since they will be going home to Canada and leaving their vehicles behind, what an opportunity for the car thieves in Tijuana and Ensenada and wherever else. They wouldn't even know their Rolls Royce or 60 Foot Motorhome was missing until they return. Now, I am not promoting this idea---just mentioning it as a great opportunity for the Baja Californians to earn some extra money. I mean if they won't even use local labor for the construction, and they won't (probably) be coming to town for anything (too many Mexicans in Town for the Cannucks) this would be a way to get some money into the local economy. By the way, is there a Mulege Bay? Anyone for a little high tea?

$5000 escrow just to visit??

Steve in Oro Valley - 9-15-2004 at 07:12 AM

I just looked at the Loretobay.com website and read the above Arizona Republic Interview.

Loreto Bay will not be like any "Mexican village" that I know. 5000 homes planned; $200,000 to $1,000,00 resort style homes, to attract baby boomers who want a spa "destination" experience. What about lower cost housing for those who want a special Loreto experience?

This sounds like Tucson's Canyon Resort (fat farm) only in a Loreto B.C.S. location.

I am suddenly OPPOSED to the concept based on the Arizona Republic interview of Mr. Grogan. He seems to have a different face when adddressing the potential market in a U. S. newspaper. The Loretobay.com website has a "sustain the environment" face

It is also true Civano in Tucson has not met the objectives envisioned in the beginning. But at least the planners now have a better appreciation of the obstacles entailed in such a self sustaining project.

The local Loretanos need to be a part of the project ie. construction, services, shops, taco stands, etc.

Sewage and garbage disposal will still be a problem. Be sure you get the Hepatitis series shots before snorkeling!

Don't the developers know that golf is a declining pastime, wastes resources, frustrates the psyche, and is not a good physical activity from a health standpoint?
Loreto is a special kind of place and one could play golf elsewhere.

Steve in Oro Valley

Tell that to the Canadians who come here

flyfishinPam - 9-15-2004 at 12:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve in Oro Valley
Don't the developers know that golf is a declining pastime, wastes resources, frustrates the psyche, and is not a good physical activity from a health standpoint?
Loreto is a special kind of place and one could play golf elsewhere.

Steve in Oro Valley


about five years ago, I invited and arranged for Ann Hazard to present her books "Cooking with Baja Magic" and newly released at the time "Cartwheels in the Sand" to the (then) Eden Resort. This was peak travel season and the hotel was full.

I asker her that evening how it went and she told me that only 2 folks showed up. "Those Canadians were so busy playing 20 rounds of golf that they weren't even interested in what she had to say"

some folks come here for different things.

I do agree we don't need another golf course as the one we have isn't used often.

[Edited on 9-15-2004 by flyfishinPam]

The realities of "affordable housing"

Hook - 9-15-2004 at 12:53 PM

With the cost of housing escalating astronomically in areas of high demand, one has to wonder why the marketplace hasn't responded with affordable housing. Here in California, most all attempts at creating affordable housing are quashed by voters who worry about the effects of these enclaves on their own property values.

I think projects like Loreto Bay and others actually ARE affordable housing........but not for the locals of Loreto. Many of them will be bought by individuals in these high demand US communities who are looking for affordable housing in their retirement. Or by Canadians escaping adverse climates, who can see themselves simply trading their Canadians homes for one in Loreto in their retirement.

The realities of affordable housing for many of us is to move somewhere affordable, 'cause it's sure not being built where we live.

As ever, the marketplace will dictate what happens, assuming that all the infrastructure questions are met. As many have pointed out, that remains to be seen in Loreto.

Once upon a time, a Gabrieleno Indian in LA looked around and wondered where all these Mexicans with money came from.

Once upon a time, a Mexican in LA looked around and wondered where all these Americans with money came from.

Once upon a time, Americans in LA looked around and wonder where all these Asians and Europeans with money came from.

Once upon a time we all became Americans, looked around and realized, "Hell, I cant afford to retire here."

This type of change is inevitable because there is a market for living, inexpensively, in nice places. As long as housing costs are astronomical in other places, there will be development pressure on cheaper places that are nice. The burgeoning glut of baby boomers is driving this.

Then there's the history of questionable practices by the Mexican government, with respect to development regulation. A matador comes to mind......

What you gonna do?

In the absence of infrastructure restraints, this project is inevitable, IMO.

Can you honestly blame the people that are considering buying into the LB project? I'm willing to bet these are not rich people, if you exclude the wildly inflated values of their stateside/Canadian homes. They are some of the same people that come to Loreto to vacation and spend modest sums on fishing, hotels, etc.

well stated Hook. as i have been saying

capt. mike - 9-16-2004 at 08:49 AM

all along, this has nothing to do with emotion, it's a market driven function. the market will decide unemotionally success or failure. Naysayers will always find their reasons to b-tch pee and bemoan something they don't like and they feel others shouldn't have. If Grogan and co. can do it and it succeeds, hell - why not? we are in a global economy, like it or not. Ethnocentrism has no longer a place in value judgements.

backninedan - 9-16-2004 at 09:14 AM

Capt Mike.

Then your saying that if money can make anything happen its ok??

What a crock!!

Not all are on pension

synch - 9-16-2004 at 09:40 AM

Capt Mike has a point, but in order to afford any housing, people must have an income. Where will that income come from?

If you are thinking that Americans on retirement will be buying these, then I would point out that the retirement of Baby-boomers is having a cycle that is peaking and the downslide will show a regression. Will housing drop when there are fewer buyers or will it be returned to the banks by repossession and takeovers?

Back nine Dan

Hook - 9-16-2004 at 09:49 AM

Well, "OK" is a rather vague term. "OK" to whom? Define the state of being "OK"? My gut feeling is that this project is probably "OK" for the majority of the locals in the Loreto area, at least the ones that will need the income.

I think what Mike and I are saying is that, irrespective of the value judgement of this being "OK" or not, it is likely inevitable IF the marketplace is allowed to make the decision.

Don Alley - 9-16-2004 at 12:40 PM

Is development in Nopolo really market driven? Should we consider that many of the amenities-golf course, tennis club, streets, airport-were a result of political decisions and political/government money?

Also, the local real estate market offers bigger lots, bigger houses for less money than Loreto Bay. Seems to me that a part of Loreto Bay's market value to its customers is its own version of ethnocentrism. Their customers will pay premium prices for alternatives to dealing with and living with local Mexicans.

Free markets have proven benefits. But unrestricted free markets can have unintended and/or adverse impacts on society and the environment.

Just mho. And consider that I am temporarily stuck in a cold, rainy Montana, bored, wishing I were trying out some new jigs down there...so I have the time to babble on this free marketplace of talk and ideas... :)

Don

Dan (do you ever play the front 9?)

capt. mike - 9-16-2004 at 01:35 PM

no - money doesn't make it happen or make it alright. I am saying DEMAND vs. SUPPLY will decide on what happens.....market forces pure and simple. some money might get it started, but if no demand it will fail as it should. But if allowed those with the capital and PERMISSION to try it should take whatever risk they deem appropriate.

Biz has to be allowed to happen.

backninedan - 9-16-2004 at 02:20 PM

Capt.Mike

Since moving to Loreto, I dont even play the backnine anymore, the course here is expensive and in poor shape.

The best round I had there was when I was able to watch the staff chasing cattle off the course with golf carts.

I think i snapped a bit at you, the Loreto Bay thing puts my knickers in a bunch. After seeing it and having friends go to the selling spiel, I can't help but smell rip off, but you have it right, Im not the one buying, and if others do, it will happen, no matter how I feel.



no long term benafits to the mexicans??

jerry - 9-16-2004 at 02:53 PM

What about the bars the restarants the shops taco stands stores in loreto plumbers electrections to mention a few after its build that are needed to maintain it
Tell me how long does it take to see all the shops eat at all the restrants and see all the sites in a city the size of loreto bay??
Hell gringos allways go to a bigger place to shop as an example if you live in a city of 20,000 you go to a city of 100,000 then on to a million
Its only nateral that emotions will run wild on what might happen but seldom are they warrented
But emotions are not whate runs the world
supply and demand does
yes BUCKS
And im all for the mexican to get thier hands on all they can the spilling over of people into loreto can do nothing but benafit loreto at least the mexicans in loreto Jerry

jerry - 9-16-2004 at 02:56 PM

ps dang i with this had spell check

To sync

Hook - 9-16-2004 at 02:57 PM

Dont underestimate the inflated value of the baby boomers real estate holdings. That can be tapped in many ways, in addition to their 401k plans, their social security and any defined benefit plans they may have.

To Don Alley: I'm not sure LB is an attempt at ethnocentrism. Given the attempts at creating some sense of "community" that these developers strive for in their other projects, you certainly couldn't do that in Loreto proper. They need a discrete block of land to attempt this.

elgatoloco - 9-16-2004 at 03:07 PM

spell check

compose your thoughts in microsoft word. spell check. right click-copy-paste into reply box on bbs.

wa-la! no I mean walla! no it's voila??
:biggrin:

mcgyver - 9-16-2004 at 03:15 PM

To Jerry;
I am with you on spell check but Hook knows words so big and complicated i can't even mispell them.
Don'y worry though, the spelling police are lurking and will catch me and you sooner than later.!!
:bounce::lol:

mcgyver - 9-16-2004 at 03:18 PM

To elgatoloco:
Say what??? Do who???

spell check

jerry - 9-16-2004 at 03:30 PM

i m new this mechine but ill have to learn it some time so thanks for the info
seems like going to mulege from loreto by way of lapaz guess its get ya there and ya see different scenery

wilderone - 9-16-2004 at 03:36 PM


?it's a market driven function.? IT?S A FONATUR-DRIVEN PROJECT just like Cancun and Cabo San Lucas. Period ? that is its origination and purpose for being.

?If Grogan and co. can do it and it succeeds, hell - why not?? BECAUSE IT?S DESTROYING A UNIQUE ECOLOGY, open space, a real Baja town, and introducing everything that is wrong with society today.

?Ethnocentrism has no longer a place in value judgements.? THIS IS ABJECT NONSENSE. Ethnocentrism is the very essence in value judgments ? of whomever is making the judgment. Same as YOUR value judgment.

?this has nothing to do with emotion,? Are you kidding? THIS HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH EMOTION. Have you seen the LB website ? the entire thing is based on EMOTION - they are selling a dream and the buyers are euphoric because they think they?re getting a bargain seaside luxury home for their golden years where they can share pate with their neighbors in the wine celler; and the environmentalists want to preserve what they feel in their heart must be retained in its natural state for the greater good; some of the Loreto citizens want a better life that they think they?ll achieve becoming a towel boy at the beach club; and the developers, of course, see millions in their bank accounts. What do you think makes the world go around? EMOTION

?Naysayers will always find their reasons to b-tch pee and bemoan something they don't like and they feel others shouldn't have.? ?OTHERS? can buy whatever their heart desires (emotions again) ? I couldn?t care less - there are plenty of properties on the market WITHOUT HAVING TO DESTROY MORE AND MORE OF WHAT WE DON?T HAVE ? which is fewer and fewer bespoiled accessible beautiful bays and beaches in Baja open to everyone.

Maybe it will get built eventually, and probably all of the negative outfall will occur, and maybe everyone will say, ?gee, remember when ...?, as they gaze upon the algae plume in the bay resulting from the broken sewer pipe that doesn?t seem to be anyone?s responsibility to fix; and listen to the drone of jet skis and too-loud music blaring from their too-close neighbors? houses (see LB website), and try to remember why they bought it in the first place ? to experience the quiet of nature (see LB website again); and complain about the bill for the special assessment for the security guard they must have, and the fencing required to keep out the less fortunate who want to break into the off-site garages and go to ?their? beach; and wonder why the whales and fish and coyotes and estuary birds all seemed to have disappeared. BUT BY THEN, IT WILL BE TOO LATE. At least I can say I tried.

jerry - 9-16-2004 at 05:20 PM

hea wilderone whats your back ground?? do you have property in loreto?? how mutch time you spend in loreto?
just wondering where your coming from you can u2u me if you like

yes i have

jerry - 9-16-2004 at 05:34 PM

i have a place in loreto not a hugh ugly gringo place and i prefer the mexican ppl to a lot of selfrichouse gringoes as far as loreto bay i personally dont think that its any more special that any other baja shoreline it all has its pluses its location near loretois the reason that the building will happen there its normal progress the emotion that im talking about is all the negativity the sky is falling the sky is falling if this project was in agua verde pple would be upset there too none can please everyone and your not going to stop progress or ppl who want to own a piece of it let them be the judge of what they want jerry

backninedan - 9-16-2004 at 06:02 PM

Jerry

I live in Loreto (colonia zaragoza) full time, sent you a u2u, give me a buzz if you get it.

I still have the same questions when this information was first Posted!

Skeet/Loreto - 9-16-2004 at 08:04 PM

Have the Developers brought in or made arrangements for the health Care of the Workers and their Families that are being imported to build this Place?

Have arrangements been made for the needs of Schooling for the Families of the Workers?

Where is the Water going to come from, and How much will be necessary?

It would be well advised that any one buying into this Development to Check out the Background of the "Lady" Leading the Charge of Sales"!

Skeeter/Loreto

"In God I Trust"

elgatoloco - 9-16-2004 at 10:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mcgyver
To elgatoloco:
Say what??? Do who???


McGyver & jerry, you need to find a 10 or 11 year old neighbor kid to tutor you on the pc basics. It's fun! :yes: