Mengano pointed out that I have said that Mexico has a somewhat better mental health rate than the U.S. He posted some stats from the U.S. and Mexican
governments on depression that seem to refute that. I started a new thread, since it was a whole 'nother subject. So here we are. Here's my reply so
far:
To understand the two tables, I'd have to know if they are comparing apples to apples (as in lifetime incidence or in past year, whether dysthymia is
included or only major depression are the main factors). But I agree that for a rough and ready look at mental health of a population, and you had to
pick one thing, depression is a good pick.
So if you could send the links to the sources, I'd like to see if I can sort that out. With enough data, I have no problem with changing my opinion
and doing a retraction.
But, in the mean time, you'll see different rates below. Of course, different studies will get different rates. SAMSA probably got the stat from an
overview of studies, which is better, but I still need to know if their looking at the same depression as the Mexican research.
Have a look at table 2 in this article. It's a free full-text article.
Immigration and Lifetime Prevalence of DSM-IV Psychiatric Disorders Among Mexican Americans and Non-Hispanic Whites in the United States
- - - - -
While we're at it, since researchers are taking more interest in the effects of migration on Mexicans and Hispanics in general, some interesting
things have come up. This project, below, turned up interesting things about mental health of Mexicans categorized by immigration factors. The overall
trend has been that Mexicans fare worse as they enculturate, so researchers are trying to get a more detailed look at what that means. For example,
they are finding that the age of leaving Mexico plays a big role in level of risk for mental illness or emotional problems.
Archives of General Psychiatry
4/4/2011
Migration from Mexico to the U.S. and subsequent risk for depressive and anxiety disorders: A cross-national study
"Earlier studies have found that among Mexican-Americans, as among U.S. Hispanics more broadly, greater acculturation - adoption of American patterns
of behavior - is associated with worse mental-health status, including higher rates of both psychiatric and substance-use disorders. In addition,
among Mexican-born immigrants in the U.S., those who have been in the U.S. for longer periods of time have worse mental health than those who have
arrived more recently."
Mixed Fruits
MrBillM - 12-28-2011 at 10:52 AM
While "Apples and Oranges" is the most-frequent hackneyed metaphor used in most odd comparisons, in this case shouldn't we be using something like
"Coconuts and Pecans" which more closely approximates the subjects ?
Of course, "Bananas and ....." ? might work, too.
Should we take this under study ?Mengano - 12-28-2011 at 10:53 AM
Bob, even you could discern that you failed to respond to my question and just changed the subject. I will repeat my question again:
"Research tells us that Mexico has better overall mental health than the U.S."
Would you post a link to your source data, Bob? Thanks in advance, I look forward to reviewing the research on that.
Try to focus and respond to the question asked. You stated "Mexico has better overall mental health than the U.S...." Your response above was to post
two examples of the mental health characteristics of Mexicans who had already migrated to the US. Surely you realize that represents a sub-set of the
Mexican population and nothing has been performed to demonstrate that sub-set is also representative of the entire Mexican population in Mexico.
You must have had the research when you wrote that article only five months ago, right? Your failure to respond to the question, but instead divert
the discuss can only lead a casual reader to one conclusion. You have introduced a Red Herring argument in order to divert attention to the original
issue.
I theorize that you actually had no research that demonstrates "Mexico has better overall mental health than the U.S." If you had it, you would have
posted it already.Islandbuilder - 12-28-2011 at 11:56 AM
Even though I'm far from being the biggest brain in this thread, might I suggest that there is a direct relationship between contemporary media
availability and depression?
The more exposure, the more depression.
Whan all you know is your immediate surroundings, it is easier to be at peace than it is when you are exposed to all the stuff that you'll never have
nor ever be.
Just a thought......
[Edited on 12-28-2011 by Islandbuilder]DENNIS - 12-28-2011 at 12:23 PM
Depression is more than having a bad hair or news day. Be happy if you don't know what I mean by that. You really don't want to know.Mengano - 12-28-2011 at 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Depression is more than having a bad hair or news day. Be happy if you don't know what I mean by that. You really don't want to know.
I always have a no-hair day. BobY - 12-28-2011 at 12:53 PM
Mr. M: The most direct response is that I scan through a lot of data because of work like developing continuing ed programs. I form opinions based on
that. I provided an example of source data. If I ever write a paper on the subject, it will all be organized and tied up with a nice little bow for
you.
My week is pretty packed, but I'm interested in having that information more organized because of a couple projects coming up, so I'll see what else I
have or can find.
Meanwhile, I gave you an excellent reference with a reasonable good sized population to draw generalizations from. So have a look at that.
And send me the links to your data, it might be better that what I have, might not.
And as for me not having the source data organized already... it was an informal blog entry that you are referring to. My opinion was based on
articles such as the ones I cited for you.
I'm sorry I'm not putting more emotional energy into this to come off all snide and hateful. I mean, I know that really detracts from the emo-tainment
value that you go for, but maybe at least this paragraph will help make the tone a little more negative and castigating.DENNIS - 12-28-2011 at 01:07 PM
Why don't you knock off the childish condescension, Boby. It gets really tiresome...way moreso than presenting facts or fiction.mtgoat666 - 12-28-2011 at 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BobY
Mental Health Showdown
will be interesting to see who wins the mental health showdown,... Who is craziest? Let's tune in and find out!
Keeping up appearances
Dave - 12-28-2011 at 01:13 PM
Most of the Mexicans I deal with seem happy. If they're faking it, then, good job!DENNIS - 12-28-2011 at 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
will be interesting to see who wins the mental health showdown,... Who is craziest? Let's tune in and find out!
Goat....even a cloven hoofed clown can be a part of the selection process....just look inward. DENNIS - 12-28-2011 at 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Most of the Mexicans I deal with seem happy. If they're faking it, then, good job!
Yeah.......wtf is all this crappola? If the Mexican populace could read this thread, they'd be in awe that the reviled gringo sees them as happy,
giggling, mindless marionettes that lean against tall cactus when they take naps.
HappyHappyHappy....and Happy to be Happy. Iflyfish - 12-28-2011 at 01:47 PM
My experience is that I have NEVER been Depressed in Baja, hung-over, but never Depressed. I'm just sayin', that’s my personal experience. I realize
that is a small N, but it’s what I have.
Next time I am in the Copper Canyon I will inquire of the first Tarahumara I run into what his take is on the matter, I’m sure that the Huichol in
dialogue with their god Peyote have something to say on the issue, but I have always found them to be a bit secretive. One must be careful when making
cross-cultural comparisons: See Zen Buddhism and Psychoanalysis for some considerations on this issue. I have yet to find a DSMIII in the hands of a
Mixtec or Zapotec shaman, they tend to have a different view of these things.
Iflyfish
Its all in the interpretation...
EnsenadaDr - 12-28-2011 at 04:17 PM
Are there people in general who don't know or don't recognize depression, specifically, post partum depression, after having their 9th child and can't
feed them or find work...if so, if having only a 2nd grade education would omit them from knowing or reading about depression...then, the question,
"esta deprimida"??? NOOOOO.....in other words, people, ignorance is bliss...therefore these statistics, in my opinion, are WAY skewed...just
sayin'...I see these people on a daily basis...
[Edited on 12-28-2011 by EnsenadaDr]Bajahowodd - 12-28-2011 at 04:38 PM
Some, perhaps inarticulate observations:
First, I really have to get with DENNIS on the depression thing. Just like recreational viagra, big pharma has been pushing myriad "cures" for
something that might be called ephemeral depression. Translation: many folks are just plain not happy with their lives. They go to a doctor who is
whoring for big pharma and next thing you know, they are on Paxil or some similar medication, giving big pharma huge profits.
What DENNIS was referring to is an awful condition that way too many folks suffer. It can absolutely disable one.
Second, Islandbuilder makes a good point in that our current 24/7 news cycle via cable and portable devices is mission driven to "entertain" by
constantly going back and forth over sometimes ridiculous issues.
I find the same when watching markets. Given that we currently have many different sources that seem to want to keep us in a contemporary way with
every up-tick and down-tick, they are obliged to make up reasons for market movement. Even though there is a large group of gamers who make money up
or down in the market.
Finally, although in recent years there have been major inroads made by, in particular, Christian fundamentalist groups to "tear" Mexicans away from
their traditional Roman Catholic roots, the simple fact is that in keeping with Islandbuilder's comments, the Catholic church, as much as it may be
guilty for keeping Mexico in a chronic state of poverty, also instilled a sense of family and humility into the Mexican culture, that we just may see
has a greater sense or feeling of happiness than one might find in other countries, including the US.
ps to BobY- What makes you believe that Mengano is a "he"?
Crazy Competition
MrBillM - 12-28-2011 at 05:05 PM
While the subject and solutions may be complex, a "simple" fact is apparent.
IF BobY sincerely thinks this is anything but entertainment, he's clearly NUTS.
Analytically speaking.
Speaking of pain and depression, the evening news describes a person suffering both was dissatisfied that the hospital emergency room staff would not
provide him with pain-killers for his back pain.
Showing resourcefulness, he went out to his car, got his gun and shot himself in the ankle. Which they had to treat.
Showing that there's more than ONE way to get YOUR way.
USUALLY, when we talk about shooting oneself in the foot, it's rhetorical. Something he obviously misunderstood.
Authorities haven't decided whether he'll be charged.
With Criminal Stupidity ?
[Edited on 12-29-2011 by MrBillM]Iflyfish - 12-28-2011 at 06:21 PM
Interesting study on Depression related to affluence:
Hey, Iffyfish, thanks for that link, it's a perfect example of the research.
Bajahowood, it's sad about Big Pharma, ain't it? Lately, they have been getting as many black eyes as a spider hockey match. Huge revelations have
been hitting universities, the companies, and certain psychiatrists. Things are being done about it, like having to register research studies in
advance so they can't hide results they don't like. But there's so much trouble with side effects... Still, they work very well for a lot of people,
too, so I refer to psychiatrists with care and provide balanced info.
Thanks Dennis, more people need to understand that depression isn't an attitude. People with tons of motivation can get blocked by depression and they
have no desire to be that way.
But, Dennis, childish is the only way I know to do condescention. Mr. M was having so much fun with it, how could I not give it a whirl? I mean, "even
you could discern that you failed to...blah blah" Even you! Fabulous... over the top. 5 Stars. And it really works best with zero wit, just slapping
that big, cold fish on the counter with a thud. I'm taking notes.
And definitely listen to Mr. Bill M, I am that crazy. Gee, that patient coulda robbed a pharmacy with the gun instead of shooting hisself for pain
meds.JoeJustJoe - 12-29-2011 at 01:50 AM
I don't think anybody is going to be able to compare the depression rate of the USA compared to Mexico, and I'm certainly not going to believe any one
article especially given the fact we have no idea where they're getting most of their facts and data from..... especially on the part of Mengano who
is making the country to country comparison. Talk about comparing apples to oranges, controlled studies, and culture differences. I don't think it
could be done.
The fact is the diagnosis of depression is highly subjective that may involve both biological and environmental factors. There are no laboratory tests
for clinical depression. The doctors or psychologists depend on a patient's self reported experiences, and feelings. Depression usually comes down to
the intensity and duration of the depressed feelings. Oh the mental health field has lots of tools, and standardized tests, but it still comes down
to how does the patient feel.
Some women in New York City might report she is feeling depressed that she isn't climbing the corporate ladder and her husband doesn't listen to her.
A Mexican housewife might be feeling depressed that her husband left her, and she has no way to put food on the table, and the safely net is almost
non existent in Mexico compared to the USA.
The article that Mengano first linked the other day mentioned the problems of mental or emotional health have increased dramatically in recent
decades, especially with people living in conditions of insecurity, unemployment, poverty, violence and other psychology pressure.
If you take away some of those negative factors and depression may magically disappears too. Feelings of depression is just too subjective of a mood
disorder to make a standardized diagnoses and say, "yeah he is depressed for sure, because he scored above 100 points on my depression standardized
test.
The article makes the claim 1 in 10 Mexican visits the doctor because of depression. But I get the feeling the study was done in Mexico City that
could be very much the rat race as in cities like New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles.
I think there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that shows living in rural more slower countryside living is better for your health including Mental
health. So I think there are still a lot of happy Mexicans out there, but no doubt the world is full of depressed people too.BobY - 12-29-2011 at 01:29 PM
Hi Joe, yes, seriously, these problems with research go on for miles. But I should add that when a lot of different kind of studies tend to all go in
the same direction (especially when they are looking at different aspects, like what goes on with immigrants and so forth), it's more compelling as
evidence goes.
Also, they don't diagnose depression by just asking how you feel, there are other aspects. And it is no less valid if you can point to the person's
circumstances as the (or a) cause. The situation can be a trigger, but at least major depression is diagnosed because of a number of factors, like how
persistent it is, and how much it affect the person's ability to move. Depression actually contributes to obesity because the person moves less, not
realizing how much it is reducing the number of calories they are burning.
Mental health sites that list the DSM criteria go into the criteria for depression and other problems. I point all this out because there is so much
stigma and misunderstanding that a lot of people don't get the help they need. As much as meds have gotten a well-deserved bad rap, still, they are a
huge help to a lot of people--and a good number of research studies has for a long time been showing that combining meds with counseling is even more
helpful.DENNIS - 12-29-2011 at 02:24 PM
A healthy person with larcenous motives and the aid of a DSM-4 could easily convince the most qualified of practitioners that he is clinically
depressed. It happens often in disability cases. I've seen it first hand.
With depression, doctors only know what they are presented with by the patient. All they do is interpret.....guess with knowledge.
Other maladies, such as Schizophrenia, can have chemical verifications, such as anti-psychotics.
It's often occured to me that when a questionable patient is crying and suicidal while attempting to apply for disability, he should be left alone in
a room with a loaded pistol on the table. Test his resolve....so to speak.
Freakin' frauds.....they cheapen my existance.
