BajaNomad - The final straw

The final straw

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astrobaja - 2-6-2012 at 10:06 AM

Hi all,

A few weeks back a guy e-mailed us from El Centro saying that a group of cars/jeeps from a 4X4 club was coming through the sierra. This was the same guy who last year dug up our gate towards Mikes. That time we said ok we'll let you through but no more try to find another way around.
Since then our north gate had been re-inforced pretty well. But it seems a bunch of them spent a few hours cutting a bunch of brush and went around we have another gate at our house here so they got here (a mix of Mexicans from Mexicali and Mexican-Americans from El Centro) A few of them were pretty abusive verbally saying we could not own property in Mexico blah blah blah, we kept our distance as some were obviously drunk and beligerent. We called the 67th battalion, they said they would sent a hummer but nobody ever showed. We told the park what was happpening on the radio, they took all the plate info when these bozos arrived. So yeah they proceeded to break more vegetation right in front of us and passed by. The front gate was open since I radioed the condor folk and they drove down to unlock it so that the tour would not damage it.
Later that night 2 stragglers tried to go by but we were pretty furious at that point so my "very loud" warning started them to turn back but my Wife (in her bathrobe) took a shovel to the back window of one of the jeeps. In retrospect not a good action but it was the final straw.
So I'm getting a bulldozer in here soon to totally close the road, permanently!! Enough is enough!! Too bad it came to this, we were probably way too accomodating from the getgo.
This whole thing could be fixed if that way from Mikes through to Coyote were re-opened. I e-mailed Sal Fish to see if SCORE had any plans to fix that road for future Baja Milles. I also e-mailed that tour leader from El Centro and told him if they got together with a bunch of other groups and each pitched in say $500 then we would pony in $1500 to get work started. If any of you Nomads know other tour operators that possibly would also be willing to pony in to keep the region open for off-roading that would be great. But bottom line is our road will be closed soon so we had better start working together for a solution. I'm getting pushed into a corner here, this is where we live, for them its a "hobby"

[Edited on 2-6-2012 by astrobaja]

wessongroup - 2-6-2012 at 10:09 AM

Thanks Astro ... a good one to start the day with...

goldhuntress - 2-6-2012 at 10:43 AM

A bad combo, arrogance and ignorance. Add a little alcohol and it's downright scary! Sorry that happened to you. Beautiful place you have.

astrobaja - 2-6-2012 at 10:47 AM

Goldhuntress:

Yeah I know, it was a nasty encounter! But you could tell a bunch were just being swept along by the majority. I think more than a few knew what they were doing was wrong (and illegal) but the blowhards led the way.
I could go ahead and files denuncias but am skeptical if anything would come of it, maybe at most a fine to pay next time they registered their vehicle.
I hope they will agree to try to raise money to fix the alternate route. Like I said we will agree to chip in.

Skipjack Joe - 2-6-2012 at 10:56 AM

hooligans!

TMW - 2-6-2012 at 11:25 AM

Sorry Mike on what happened. I just don't understand why some people have to be such jerks and ruin a good thing for the rest of us. If I can help in any way I will, let me know. I'll chip in for the cost on getting the road to Coyote open.

I'm wonder how bad the road to Coyote is. Last I heard there was a small section near Coyote that was the problem.

Oddjob - 2-6-2012 at 11:40 AM

Are you even allowed to close the road through your property? It was used for decades by lots of travellers and it is shown on maps, and it's the only reasonable way to get a four wheel vehicle to the observatory road from Mike's. The road to Coyote is in bad shape and at this time only suited for dirtbikes. It will take a lot of money and time if it will ever get repaired. You need to be careful up where you live. Mexicans trying to get through and being told to go back to Mike's may resent a foreigner trying to keep them off a road that has always been open.

TMW - 2-6-2012 at 11:58 AM

Actually where he is closing the road to his property is 6 miles from Mike's Sky Rancho and was for years posted as no trespassing. I think SCORE got an OK for a few races before Mike got the property or started developing it. Also the turn off for his place is from a road that goes west also to El Coyote. It part of a loop from Mike's Sky Rancho back to it and there are two cross over sections. Here is a not to scale map of the area. The turn off to Astrobaja's place is the lower right for La Concepcion. When I did the map his place was posted as R, La Jolla.

[Edited on 2-6-2012 by TW]

rts551 - 2-6-2012 at 12:12 PM

Sorry to hear this. If you were going to let them through, I don't understand why all the damage?

Oddjob - 2-6-2012 at 12:16 PM

The road from your point #2 to #5 at Rancho Coyote is really gnarly and you aren't taking any 4 wheeled car or truck through there. Going from Mike's the other way to Coyote past the Simpson turnoff is a pretty tough road too since all of the rain the last few years. Lots of deep ruts and washed out sections. I understand astrobaja's frustration with the situation, but I'm just saying that it won't go over too well with some.

Roberto - 2-6-2012 at 12:49 PM

I did that southern loop the last time in 2007-2008 I believe it was. The folks at Coyote told me already then that they weren't sure I would get through, as there had been some heavy rains and the road had been closed for a while. Well, I DID make it through, with minor trouble. Since then there have been more rains and damage and no work as far as I have been told. I have no doubt the road is in terrible shape. Astro, what do you think it would cost to open it? I'm thinking it's gotta be in the $7,000 dollar range.

astrobaja - 2-6-2012 at 01:01 PM

Roberto hard to say, it took a dozer a week to fix our road after the huge El Nino storm, it cost us $5000 to get back into "good" shape. Here it might be that a dozer could just touch up along the way to the worst part near Coyote. Maybe 7-10 grand. We're willing to maybe go up to 1500-2000. But since lots of clubs use the roads $500 a club it could add up quickly. The northern loop is way longer so probably better to concentrate on the southern loop. I've got feelers out to SCORE and the clubs to see if we can work together on this.
TW --thanks for posting the map and the generous offer to help out monetarily.

rts551: I DID tell him no, please explore alternate routes, I even supplied him with TW's map but they are too lazy to go explore, a lot of the clubs it just seems a big excuse to get totally drunk!

astrobaja - 2-6-2012 at 01:04 PM

Oh yeah I wanted to add Aida did have a gate and a sign that said no trespassing in both idiomas. Duane too tried to keep traffic out.

Right now legally the road from the Mikes turnoff and the observatory road is only a camino vecinal for us and Soren Meling (who obviously we gave keys to for the front gate). I asked the park director and the military and they all confirmed this.

Oddjob - 2-6-2012 at 03:20 PM

Unless one or both of the roads that go towards El Coyote are repaired, the road thru astrobaja's property is the only way to the observatory road from Mike's.
There will be problems with the gates until there is another way to get thru, and if it's the wrong person they will bust up your gates and use the road anyway.

TMW - 2-6-2012 at 03:28 PM

I thought Mike's Sky Ranch owned a bull dozer for clearing the road.

Oddjob - 2-6-2012 at 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
I thought Mike's Sky Ranch owned a bull dozer for clearing the road.

The Thousand is going to La Paz in November so if Score wants to go that way they will have to do something to the road. Or maybe they will ask astrobaja for permission to use his road. :biggrin:

Does that bulldozer at Mike's even run?

surfer jim - 2-6-2012 at 03:49 PM

So here we go again...why just not leave the road OPEN and everyone just drives through and waves "Hi" to each other and goes about their business. :light:

astrobaja - 2-6-2012 at 03:58 PM

So sorry to inconvenience you Jim, but we LIVE here, 100% of the time. We don't want growers coming through and deal with all the trash and pulling drunk Mexican off roaders out of the ditch cause they can hardly see.
And when we go away anybody can just drive up and steal what they want?

Tell you what why not leave your front and back door unlocked at your house and I'll tell people to come and go as they please, you trust them don't you?

From what I'm told theres other roads in the Sierra Juarez that are being closed too, just a fact of a changing world!

mtgoat666 - 2-6-2012 at 03:58 PM

the easiest way to block road is to find narrow points where offroad detour is not possible -- then use backhoe to dig trenches and position boulders. this way you can reopen road by repairing only one section, and topography will prevent people from forging detour path around road block.

check with military and neighbors first, they may be annoyed at you if they rely on road. out of towners have no say in the matter, so no need to check with them.

good luck!

p.s. another solution is to move gate to a narrow point where people cannot cut detour path. or import large boulders to gate location so potential offroad detours around gate can be blocked with immovable rocks.

astrobaja - 2-6-2012 at 05:49 PM

Heard back from Sal Fish (thanks Tom!) He correctly suggested 1st to ask Mike Leon if they have any plans for the road and to ask the coyote Melings if its ok with them. I imagine they would stand to increase their business a bit. Probably best SCORE ask the 2 parties involved.
If this can go forward maybe we can just fortify the back gate a bit more so nobody can go around and leave it at that. Since the bad storm we have seen a 3 fold increase in off road traffic.

Roberto - 2-6-2012 at 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by astrobaja
So sorry to inconvenience you Jim, but we LIVE here, 100% of the time. We don't want growers coming through and deal with all the trash and pulling drunk Mexican off roaders out of the ditch cause they can hardly see.
And when we go away anybody can just drive up and steal what they want?

Tell you what why not leave your front and back door unlocked at your house and I'll tell people to come and go as they please, you trust them don't you?

From what I'm told theres other roads in the Sierra Juarez that are being closed too, just a fact of a changing world!

Mike, you have a point. But, I'm sure you have considered that if you are trying to stop growers a gate may not be enough? As you know there are those in those hills who have no respect whatsoever for the law and there is a possibility that a blocked access at the wrong time could cause some problems? Just sayin', and I'm NOT saying to just lay down, but you may need more than a gate there.

Have you discussed this with the officials in the area? Something along the line of the other roads being blocked putting you and your neighbors in a bad situation? Might also want to think about not letting Pamela have access to those shovels? :biggrin:

UnoMas - 2-6-2012 at 09:15 PM

I just hope you are not putting yourself and wife in a danger. Trying to tell local's they can't do what they have done for years, add arrogance, alcohol and machismo it is a dangerous mixture.
Is there not an easier way to deal with this, move the road so it doesn't pass by your front door etc. I think you would be much more successful if you tried to work with the situation than the approach you are taking. JMO

Roberto - 2-6-2012 at 09:21 PM

Keep in mind that Astro and SO have been there for a few years, and have built up some good alliances. So he's not exactly all alone and innocent here.

That said, I sure hope nothing bad happens. Off-Roaders I wouldn't worry about. Growers could be a different story.

UnoMas - 2-6-2012 at 10:21 PM

Exactly

It only takes a few seconds to reverse years of building alliances. Just hope his passion doesn't end up being his fate. I admit I do not know anything about this situation. :coolup:

wessongroup - 2-6-2012 at 11:17 PM

Some really good points... it all helps...

David K - 2-7-2012 at 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
Actually where he is closing the road to his property is 6 miles from Mike's Sky Rancho and was for years posted as no trespassing. I think SCORE got an OK for a few races before Mike got the property or started developing it. Also the turn off for his place is from a road that goes west also to El Coyote. It part of a loop from Mike's Sky Rancho back to it and there are two cross over sections. Here is a not to scale map of the area. The turn off to Astrobaja's place is the lower right for La Concepcion. When I did the map his place was posted as R, La Jolla.

I love your map Tom! Very easy and clear...

Here is one with mileages along the road we took to Mike's back in late 2005:

astrobaja - 2-10-2012 at 12:50 PM

Roberto and Unomas,

You made good points but its not the locals who are being affected. Our only neigbor whos uses our road is Soren Meling who owns rancho La Joya just below us. He of course got a copy of the key to the front gate (observatory road). BTW that group from Mexicali who broke through got to the front gate after passing our place and found it locked. I had radioed the condor folk who also have a key to go down and unlock it so that the tour would not damage it, but they could not arrive in time. Soren must have noticed the group and quickly went out to unlock it for them. It was good for this group to see that not just "foreigners" were affected. Soren approves of the gates presence as it gives him some form of security from people who steal.
About the danger from growers: 4 years ago there were groups of growers on our ranch and down at La Joya but the military cleaned them out before we even arrived. Since then with more traffic here they have surely moved on to other places. These growers are at the the very smallest fish and do not want any sort of attention or confrontation. There may still be some up in the park and towrds Mikes near the San Rafael stream, but here there are none.
The idea of moving the road is totally unfeasable given the terrain it would take a huge amount of money.
We are writing an e-mail to a few of the off road groups with whom we have had good relations in the past to try to spread the word about fixing the Coyote road. Its in the hands of SCORE and ultimately Coyote to make the decision if its ok or not.

lkane - 2-10-2012 at 09:42 PM

Quote:

Hi Nomads,
I wanted to comment on this post. I realize I am a visitor and in no way represent anyone's opinion but that of myself.

What has prompted my reply to this post is that I find it ironic that Astro has entitled this "The Last Straw" and goes on to label "off roaders" as imposters and "drunks".

I consistently hear of these issues and have directly worked on mending the relationships between land owners and those seeking access.

First, Sierra Juarez has certain access issues but they are in no way like this. And, there are working relationships between "off roaders" and the ejidos in that area. The Ejido Sierra Juarez has always been open to conversation with off roaders and over the years there has been a lot of positive development. So I say, entirely different.

2 years ago Astro was stranded on his property to the extent that he needed a helicopter to drop him supplies.
Remember?:
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=43761&pag...

At that time approximately 10 volunteers in four vehicles from a goodwill organization of "off roaders" from Racers and Ranchers ventured down to the road to Astro and spent hours making their way into his property from the highway to provide relief and access. They did this entire effort on their own dime to help a land owner in need.

Another local off roader even ventured in prior to the groups arrival and delivered fuel to Astro by way of riding it in on his motorcycle.

That same evening as the group made their way through the washed out road, a much larger group of "off roaders" accessed their way into Astro's road from the north. This was a large group from Mexico and the US on an annual off road trek. Working into the night and freezing temperatures the two groups of "off roaders were able to make Astro's road passable when it was impassable.

Did I mention that we even stopped and purchased food and other requested items prior to our arrival?

At the time Astro and his lovely wife were glad to see all these "off roaders". I will say that I am almost certain that several of the same imposters from the larger group that helped them two years ago were the same imposters that were part of this recent large group in question.

In fact here is a shot of the imposters clearing Astros road... drunks?

I find this ironic, since back 2 years ago Astro welcomed all the man power and now its "The Last Straw".

I went back to that post and see that Astro never mentioned all the help he received from those rogue imposters.

During that visit there was a lot of conversation about access through this property. Street signs were donated to Astro for the purpose of notifying passers by to respect property, close all gates and watch out for livestock.

There was even a conversation about an old road that is on the property that would bring people around the property, away from the home. The recommendation at the time was to clear that road to avoid future issues.

Astro and Pam were great hosts for the volunteers and we were appreciative of the warm fire on a cold winter night.

The best resolution to this issue is compromise. That road has been utilized for many years. "Off roaders" come in many forms, not all good, but not all bad; some like nature and creation and some like beer. Kinda like alot of people out there.

Smashing out a window with a shovel may not have been the best move. The Mikes road is too destroyed and too costly to doze. The fastest fix is the doze that old road around your property and leave the gate unlocked. A locked gate wont stop anyone who is late on the trail, cold and needing a warm destination. Personally I dont go through locked gates but like I said, I hear about these issues constantly and have had these conversations many times with both land owners and off roaders.

You may live there "100% " of the time but there are still certain things you may not be able to change. We are gringos in Mexico. That always requires solid discernment. We cant expect Mexicans to think like Canadians or Americans.

There are off roaders out there that would assist in a compromise where all are winners. Try asking for help to resolve the issue from those who you currently dont like. You may find more people interested in helping to resolve the issue than not.

I was not involved in this recent mishap. I just think Astro is taking the wrong approach.

David K - 2-10-2012 at 10:09 PM

Off Roaders are PEOPLE afterall... and there are good and bad. I think Mike has a right to be fed up, and am sure he has not forgotten us 'good' off roaders! As he said, he can be contacted to obtain permission to cross his land. .... Right Mike?

Canadian Arrogance

StevenB - 2-10-2012 at 11:57 PM

When I talked with Aida Meling (God rest her soul) and her daughter Duane, they loved off-roaders. Lots of "anti off-road and race" myths dispersed.

When the Wirths' first bought the Meling property, they told me personally "we'll never allow a Score race through here" based upon accusations of "non-payment" by the owner of Rancho Potrero to the south. This is also when I heard about an "astronomy bed and breakfast." Hmmm.

The Wirths built their guest house only inches from the road (aka Score course). Oh, see a problem?

The Wirth's desparately wanted lkane's group "Racers and Ranchers" to help rebuild their road after the Jan 2010 floods. See related post and pics.

Mike Wirth, what was your agenda? Get Mike Leon to grade the road from Mike's Sky Ranch south to your property, so the Kiliwas workers building your house would have a direct access to your property? Isn't that what you told me when I personally visited you and Pam? You were upset after the floods that these workers would have to drive the "long way" to complete the building of your house.

I have talked with Esteban Meling and Mike Leon about this. Both love to see Score races through their property. Mike Leon also stated that if Score wanted to run a route by your property, it would be the EJIDO's decison, not yours. Good luck in tying that up in the non-partial Mexican judicial system.

Stop using pot farmers as your excuse. You want to build a fortress in the Sierra San Pedro Martir that is invincible. Good Luck with that, Mr Canadian Brain trust.

And oh by the way, click that shotgun off "safety" every night you go to bed. And complete your research on camino viceral.
Are you freaking kidding me?

Steve, Baja Off-roader

mtgoat666 - 2-11-2012 at 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by StevenB
And oh by the way, click that shotgun off "safety" every night you go to bed.

Steve, Baja Off-roader

steve,
you sound like a typical offroad knucklegragger. threatening private property owners is not going to win you friends.

StevenB - 2-11-2012 at 01:04 AM

Not at all, Tom. I just spend a lot more time down there and talk to these folks than you do.

astrobaja - 2-11-2012 at 09:30 AM

Morning Lance,

Hope all is well with you and your family! First off I would like to re-iterate how how we appreciated your group of volunteers help after that huge El Nino storm a couple years back.

But please let me correct you in that I never called the 4X4 groups "imposters". Imposters to me means they would be trying to pass themselves off as someone else, sorry but that makes no sense to me.
I did however call SOME of them drunks, why? Because some of the groups from Mexicali/Sonora/Tijuana ARE so drunk that they can hardly drive, once one of them almost drove over my Wifes foot (not intentionally of course).
We have had 2 groups with exemplary manners, (e-mailed in advance asking permision and did not litter when they passed, closed all gates behind them) One was a small group from TJ another was a group called the Cameleones. Both are certainly welcome back!
But unfortunately the MAJORITY does not even acknowledge our existence, break gates, litter never stop to ask if it is ok to pass the property!
We have been givin out cards with contact info for a full year before the gates went up telling the various groups that they needed to contact us 1st for future permission to pass. Only the 2 4X4 groups I mentioned ever bothered to do that! I should also mention that ALL of the US based tour groups (mostly bikes) have been cordial and always e-mailed us 1st, so no problem there at all!!!

Ok next point. You mentioned the time just after the storm when you guys came to help us. You said a big 4X4 group helped get part of the rocky road passable, that IS true. It is also true that they are probably the same group that just recently gave us trouble. Back after the storm they passed through and never once asked if 1.) are you guys ok do you need anything
Actually its like we were invisible annd they were just passing through!!!
We DID give that same group our contact info last year when they passed through but they never contacted us even after we explained about the gates and that it was PRIVATE property NOT ejido!!
So theres the type of off road group we DO have a problem with!! Its a simple question of lack of respect.

Ok last point here. You mentioned about the possibility of re-opening an "old" road..... WHAT old road are you even talking about?????
Theres a 1/4 mile road on the other side of our arroyo that leads up to an old Kiliwa house, but it does NOT link up with anything! And even if it did it just links up with our road. You could I suppose bulldoze a road up through heavily wooded areas to Rancho Cienega De Soto (owned by Andres Meling who is in his late 80's -lives in Ensenada) but then you would have to get his permission as well. It would be hugely expensive to do this, its VERY steep and difficult terrain, sorry but this makes absolutely no sense to me. If you don't believe me come on down and check it out for yourself, I'll be glad to hike it with you! Or just look on googleearth its NOT an old road. Try mule path from 60 years ago heavily overgrown!!!
No, the logical path to repair is the route from Mikes through to Coyote. I mean the race went through exactly that road just a few years ago. It can be fixed, the bad spot is maybe a half mile from what I've been told!
Like I said numerous times if we get permission to do it we would be happy to contribute towards that solution.
Believe me Lance we are NOT trying to lump all off roaders together! There are many responsible people among the various 4x4 clubs, tour companies and loose affiliations.

take care

Mike and Pamela

[Edited on 2-11-2012 by astrobaja]

astrobaja - 2-11-2012 at 09:52 AM

Ok on to the guy that likes to use threats!

Hi Steve B (and your last name is???)

On to your "points" Well actually it WAS Duane that suggested to us that we need to put up gates in the 1st place! Next time you see her ask her to tell you the story about when Mickey Thompson tried to pass through Concepcion and how Aida turned him back. LOL it made our "response" seem pretty passive!

Whats our "agenda"??? Well apart from just wanting to be left in peace, not much...

When you supposedly visited us after the storm/floods our house was already completed there were no more workers so I think you're a bit confused there....

If Esteban and Mike want the race great more power to them, we'll even help to fix the road, no problem there. But our property IS privatley owned, NOTHING to do with ANY ejido!!!

have a nice day

StevenB - 2-11-2012 at 10:02 AM

It's not a threat, it's simply sound ADVICE. Taking shovels to local Mexicans and stirring up the pot farmers is rational? All the best to you and your wife - the battalion cannot get to your property as fast as you think they can.

TMW - 2-11-2012 at 10:57 AM

I remember at the 1987 1000 race Aida Meling had her ranch hands armed with rifles to stop the racers from prerunning and was not going to let them run the race thru her property. The pre runners were leaving the gates open and the cattle were getting out. A pre run buggie speeding past her car on the observatory road throwing rocks at her from it's wheels and that was the last straw for her. The government stepped in to calm things down and the race went on but the friction continued for some time. That was my first Baja race as a competitor.

[Edited on 2-11-2012 by TW]

lkane - 2-11-2012 at 05:30 PM

Mike,

No need to hike with you. I was only referring to the conversation I had with Pam about an old road which, if I recall correctly, went over the hill east of your home. I never did see it or ask to see it. Keep me posted on your progress. You have my email. Things need to be ironed out. This division and labeling of people drives me crazy. The area where you live above Coyote is beautiful.

Best Regards
LK

motoged - 2-12-2012 at 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnoMas
...... I admit I do not know anything about this situation. :coolup:

Typical of so many BN replies... :biggrin:

"I don't know anything...but here's my opinion..."... :biggrin:

TMW - 2-20-2012 at 11:31 AM

I just heard from a friend that the road from El Coyote to Mike's Sky Ranch is doable by truck. That would be the route on the hand drawn map above from 5 past 6, 7, and 8 to 1. Just to make sure I plan to check it out either before or just after the SF250 race.

astrobaja - 2-21-2012 at 08:00 AM

Tom we really appreciate that update! Maybe if a few more groups are willing to fix up that route a bit more it will be more usable.

Its seems that 4X4 club that behaved so badly at our place was mainly from Mexicali (with a few from TJ). But they also were pretty poorly behaved when they got up to the park. The guys were urinating in the middle of the road in front of the park office! Their behavior was refered to as a "desmadre"!

Ken Cooke - 2-21-2012 at 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lkane
The best resolution to this issue is compromise. That road has been utilized for many years. "Off roaders" come in many forms, not all good, but not all bad; some like nature and creation and some like beer. Kinda like alot of people out there.

Smashing out a window with a shovel may not have been the best move. The Mikes road is too destroyed and too costly to doze. The fastest fix is the doze that old road around your property and leave the gate unlocked. A locked gate wont stop anyone who is late on the trail, cold and needing a warm destination. Personally I dont go through locked gates but like I said, I hear about these issues constantly and have had these conversations many times with both land owners and off roaders.

You may live there "100% " of the time but there are still certain things you may not be able to change. We are gringos in Mexico. That always requires solid discernment. We cant expect Mexicans to think like Canadians or Americans.

There are off roaders out there that would assist in a compromise where all are winners. Try asking for help to resolve the issue from those who you currently dont like. You may find more people interested in helping to resolve the issue than not.

I was not involved in this recent mishap. I just think Astro is taking the wrong approach.

Very well stated, Ikane. Perhaps, a forum for discussion could bring this problem to light with the larger group of 4WD and Motorcycle "Off-Roader" groups? As a dues-paying member of Cal4Wheel, I would be happy to bring this to light - if these 4 Wheel Drive clubs are Cal4Wheel-member clubs. This problem will take cooperation in order to find a solution.

As a Baja 4WD aficionado, this development affects people like myself who enjoys a great 4WD run, *and* collects my own trash and will not operate my Jeep while under the influence. :!:

astrobaja - 2-21-2012 at 10:14 AM

Ken we wish the majority would be like your Cal4Wheeler group but sadly only 2 out of all the Mexico based 4X4 clubs have been respectful. The actions of groups like the one from Mexicali does negatively affect you guys I'm sure. I'm also sure Lance and Rudy (Racers and Ranchers) get very frustrated when groups like this undo all the positive relations that they painstakingly tried to foster.

But its not just the Mexican 4X4 groups that have been acting badly. Just 4 days after our run-in with the group from Mexicali we had some riders come through and blow by our gate by the house. Later some more came but we stopped them as they were trying to pass. Turned out they were a group from British Columbia and were on their way to the coast. We explained to them politely that it was private property and they needed to let us know beforehand. Turns out they sent the 1st riders out to the front gate to cut through the fence, marked where they cut for the others to follow! So those guys knew and planned this and then played innocent with us!
Can you appreciate how this kind of behavior makes us feel? Its basically them saying f-you to us! Even though we've been working for well over a year to get the word out so as to minimize the inconvenience to others....

Maybe you don't agree with how we have reacted Ken, but eventually there is a breaking point when people show blatent disregard for private property.

Of course Ken if you want to pass through the ranch you are welcome to, we have some beautiful spots to camp out!

cheers

Mike

[Edited on 2-21-2012 by astrobaja]

Ken Cooke - 2-21-2012 at 10:34 AM

So, prior communication with you along with respect for your property (and not throwing trash) along with THEFT are the problems. Is there a way you could communicate with Mike's regarding this problem regarding communication and access to your property - say, with flyers given out at Mike's Sky Rancho, and maybe Valle de la Trinidad and the Pemex along Hwy 1 near San Telmo?

I doubt 4WD clubs would be behind theft at your facilities, but communication and permission to access your land can possibly be approached with information given out to Off-Road enthusiasts.

astrobaja - 2-21-2012 at 10:47 AM

Ken I don't think theft is an issue with any of the groups after all they are in it for an enjoyable excursion. Its mostly a vandelism issue.

We did try to tell Mikes about the gates prior to them going up, we told them that if they could tell groups heading our way then we could be ready for them an leave gates open. But the feeling we got from the folks at Mikes was that they really were not too interested....they seemed not to care either way. Might have to setup a meeting with Mike Leon himself, who knows if the info we relayed even ever got to him.

Maybe the idea with flyers at Mikes would be a good idea especially if alternate routes were made know on some easy to read maps.

I'm sure we will come to some sort of arrangement eventually but bottom line is a few of the clubs are not welcome here anymore.

[Edited on 2-21-2012 by astrobaja]

David K - 2-21-2012 at 10:49 AM

Signs placed at junctions with the alternate routes to avoid AstroBaja's property would be much better than for them to ride/ drive more miles to the property line to find out they have to go back to the previous junction... to keep it friendly, that is.

"ROAD CLOSED 5.4 MILES/ 8.6 KMS. AHEAD TO ALL TRAFFIC, TURN SOUTH HERE" for example (in Spanish too).

astrobaja - 2-21-2012 at 10:51 AM

Yep tried that David, but the signs got taken down. Thinking now of putting up some thing like a concrete pylon with the info on it. Something that can't be taken down or easy de-faced

Once the exact alternate route gets hammered out we can pass out maps to future tours

Also having a sign near Mikes where that northern loop Tom was talking about on his map would be great too, seeing as the southern loop is much more difficult as you get close to Coyote.

[Edited on 2-21-2012 by astrobaja]

[Edited on 2-21-2012 by astrobaja]

David K - 2-21-2012 at 11:17 AM

Hope it all works out well for you Mike, and that you make more friends and less enemies with your development.

Mike's Sky Rancho began as a pilot's recreational get-away with fishing and horseback riding to go along with the rooms, meals and swimming pool... soon he got more 4WD guests and adapted.

Once the first SCORE Baja race began using Mike's as a major checkpoint (1974), more off roaders came to love the place... and when the government made new demands on how Mike had to pay for maintaining security as his airport, he said no way... and just closed it forever... and Mike's Sky Rancho became more like Mike's Off Road Rancho and he gets off road groups all the time now.

Rancho Coyote has followed that formula... and that should be enough in the area, so I don't think you need to change your theme to stay in business... In fact, based on the need to keep dust levels low, I am sure it is the last thing you want!

I hope it all works out and I look forward to meeting you up there someday (I love astronomy, afterall)!

Ken Cooke - 2-21-2012 at 11:27 AM

I posted a link to this thread on Club Zopilotos' Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/groups/108655042519128/

I will log on to the Tijuana4x4.com site and also post there.

pepebaja - 2-22-2012 at 04:30 PM

:!:

AstroBaja:
Here is a tip. I lived behing Caliente racetrack and would ride pavement and hit dirt between TJ and Cantamar or TJ to Santa Veronica.
These two popular dirt roads would take bikers and 4x4 and in the early 70's i would take my .410 or .22 for fun hunting. Anyway as soon as area started growing, ranch owners (rancho el gato and el gatito close to Cantamar)got feed up with bikers and 4x4 crossing their private property thru the dirt roads that were there before they were bought by them. They ended up grading alternate path, fencing and putting signs" to cantamar right"...problem solved.
Same thing when hitting a section of pavemevent when doing a trip from rodrigues dam to valle de las palmas, you hit the highway for several miles and then fork left onto fireroad that used to go thru rancho viejo(towards hacienda santa veronica) again owner got fed up, put a fancy gate and detoured with signs onto camino vecinal towards santa veronica. same scenario in sierra de juarez around "el rayo" cant go left at el rayo..they have alternate route miles down the road.
Same scenario by my house in valle de guadalupe leading to ojos following guadalupe wash, ranchers and locals have fenced and in a good mood charge $$$ to go trhu, same by piedras gordas before ojos, they charge $$$ to go thru..make a profit if you cant block or. just repair route before beginning of your property. fence it, put boulders, cut a big ditch and a big sign to use alternate route. Ejido comunity roads by law cannot be blocked, your dirt "connection" between mike's upstream to las truchas concrete house that belonged to Salvador Hirales connecting to the "t" used to take you to observatory and the now single track towards observatory camp gate was made "impassible my nature and the army back in early 80s,I remember back in late 80s riding from mikes to your place only to find a big bulldozed mound with a fence blocking traffic to your property, so same thing can be done again, build a big mound of dirt with rocks, put a barbed wire fence and make sure a sigh is posted stating "use alternate route".

David K - 2-22-2012 at 06:59 PM

Welcome to Nomad 'Pepe Baja'! Sounds like you have a lot of off roading under your belt! I have wanted to try to drive up to Corral de Sam above Mike's and Astro's on that 'back way' to the observatory... Guess it is not passable to a 4WD anymore?

pepebaja - 2-23-2012 at 10:30 AM

David:
Mucho gusto en conocerlos por este medio. In regards to your question, i have not ridden between mike's and rancho concepcion in over 6 years.
My last nice ride around that area was between mikes to el observatorio going upstream mike's and taking all the lefts at the "y" intersection taking you to the park gate close to vallecitos(a fun 31/2 one way singletrack). Last motorycle trip started in valle de guadalupe were i have a house and rode up past mikes to el coyote 2 years ago during the baja 1000 were we stayed at el coyote.
little bio on me :I am in my early 50's. Avid dirt biker that migrated to "family responsabilities(two 9 month twins and a 5 year old daughter)
Been living in Tijuana since 1969 when we moved from Ajo Arizona.
Started exploring dirt roads around Rodriguez dam when i was in secondary school in Tijuana. I am sure there are many folks here that remember how nice Baja was when it did not explode onto what we are experiencing in regards to pavement, trash, fenced areas, drug crops, etc.
Issue that unfortunately with time, we are experiencing more and more often.
Land is shrinking with population,ranchers and communities are fencing areas we once knew as the killer route from "a to b".
Disrespect to new owners privacy and property are getting worse with the scenario that astrobaja is experiencing. pretty sure same issues caused many land owners in sierra de juarez to fence and close once really nice routes towards valle t and laguna salada. WIsh a time machine could set us back to late 70's.....no wories, no excessive pollution, no gates. happy trais to all

Ken Cooke - 2-23-2012 at 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pepebaja
Started exploring dirt roads around Rodriguez dam when i was in secondary school in Tijuana. I am sure there are many folks here that remember how nice Baja was when it did not explode onto what we are experiencing in regards to pavement, trash, fenced areas, drug crops, etc.

Pepebaja,

I traveled from La Presa Dam to Cantamar with a San Diego-based 4WD club and some friends from the Tijuana area, and recorded the event. Please let me know what you think.

pepebaja - 2-23-2012 at 03:30 PM

saw your video,Glad you enjoyed areas that only locals use.
you got started on the mostly built corredor 2000(corredor de la muerte) the area once they started building the blv 2000, it started filling up by new development. i would start from blvd diaz ordaz and follow the "oleoducto"(pemex gas lines) to and the trail is now cut at cueros de venados. at your video at time 7:34, that area is cueros de venados. that area before the blvd was made had a nice little store with cold sodas and snacks, once it started growing with the pavement, it was easy for the cartels to start dumping bodies of executed people. as a matter of fact several years ago around 13 youths were lined up and mowed down with ak47s. so much for safety close to TJ. Since the early 70's, I would enjoy riding and driving this way to cantamar to eat at puerto nuevo lobster and then head back after a couple of cold ones. This trail also has a fork by mesa redonda that hooks to a trail that takes you to valle de las palmas on towards santa veronica. Glad you guys had a blast. thank god the government is cracking down on the cartels and all the areas seem to be "safe" again. thanks for the memories with the videos

bent-rim - 2-23-2012 at 05:13 PM

I've noticed that over the years that off roaders have worn out their welcome in Northern Baja. Lots more locked gates and unwelcoming signs posted. It's too bad, but we brought upon ourselves. I ride dirt bikes and we're always careful to leave gates the same way we find them open or closed. There was a route we would take out of Mike's heading pretty much west to the Rio San Rafael where would follow the river bed almost to Colenet. Is this near the area being discussed here?
The further south and the more remote the location the happier the locals are to see us.

David K - 2-23-2012 at 05:17 PM

We also did a run from Hwy. 3 (Valle las Palmas) across to Cantamar back in April, 2005... see photos: http://vivabaja.com/305/ We saw the old Gilbert Family Graveyard.

[Edited on 2-24-2012 by David K]

David K - 2-23-2012 at 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bent-rim
I've noticed that over the years that off roaders have worn out their welcome in Northern Baja. Lots more locked gates and unwelcoming signs posted. It's too bad, but we brought upon ourselves. I ride dirt bikes and we're always careful to leave gates the same way we find them open or closed. There was a route we would take out of Mike's heading pretty much west to the Rio San Rafael where would follow the river bed almost to Colenet. Is this near the area being discussed here?
The further south and the more remote the location the happier the locals are to see us.

The road up from Mike's and Concepcion (Baja Dark Skies Inn) to Corral de Sam was originally a logging road, but operations never were performed. Here is a 1962 map with newer additions penciled in:

Here is a 1978 Auto Club map that shows Concepcion:

Another map from the early 1970's:

A map I drew in Oct. 1972 (15 years old) the weekend we spent at Mike's and drove up to the observatory the first time:

2003 map with some mileage notes I recorded in 2005:

[Edited on 2-24-2012 by David K]

bent-rim - 2-23-2012 at 05:45 PM

Thanks DK. It looks like we were on a different trail.

Strong opinions

Ken Cooke - 2-23-2012 at 09:07 PM

I posted a link to this thread for some 4WD enthusiasts in the San Diego/Tijuana region to read and possibly discuss among themselves (and us) in order to search for solutions. The following are some opinions shared...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mexican constitution Art. 27 - "POR NINGUN MOTIVO PODRAN LOS EXTRANJEROS ADQUIRIR EL DOMINIO DIRECTO SOBRE TIERRAS Y AGUAS."
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We dont use this route, as a matter of fact, we never have. That doesnt mean that throwing trash and being disrespectful is to the land and others is the way to go about this, but as I read allong this #### seems VERY pregudice. All he talks about is these Mexicans and these Mexican Clubs. #itch is you dont like thes Mexicans and are not ok with these roads that were here Before you came here get the #### back to the US where you dont have to put up with this.
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Im sorry Ken. Realy I am. Dont mean to vent on your post, nor I mean to sound like this trash and disrespect is ok, but, well just saying. Maybe I read it all wrong.....
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Ningun Extrangero ni Mexicano tiene derecho a impedir el libre paso a lo largo de todo el territorio nacional, desgraciadamente es una practica que estan adoptando muchos, incluso los rancheros nacionales.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My point was to create a virtual dialogue, and it really went south due to the tone of the words used to describe the individuals. My response to the 4WD club members from the San Diego/Tijuana region...
No hard feelings, I don't feel disrespect for your genuine thoughts/emotions regarding this. The land owner is CANADIAN, not AMERICAN. I do sense the prejudice that you sense here. Stereotyping all MEXICAN 4WD clubs is not the way I roll. I will tell this land owner that he needs to respect those in his newly adopted land.

An Open Letter to the 4WD Club of San Diego/Tijuana

Ken Cooke - 2-23-2012 at 09:52 PM

This thread has brought out more NEGATIVE sentiment than comments related to the impending land closure. I wonder if more RESTRAINED and DIPLOMATIC terms would bring about a more INCLUSIVE conversation? Who knows, but it is certainly worth trying...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yea, dont get me wrong, Im a US born from Mexican roots so I too feel both parts of these conversations. Like Tom said, this probably just went down all the wrong way from both parties....
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White people jjejejejejejeje
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I responded by talking about my background, and hopefully we can discuss this topic without it falling back on RACE AND RACISM.

My Response to the 4WD Club members...
Because of my BLACK SKIN, I have been threatened, called ###GER, had groups of SKINHEADS threaten to ASSAULT me, all because they didn't like the part of the PLANET where my forefathers EVOLVED. My BLACK SKIN is an ADAPTATION just like my BROWN eyes, my NOSE, etc. I still approach every WHITE person as a potential friend, believing that they do not have HANGUPS or ISSUES with persons of my same race. My beautiful wife speaks SPANISH-only, and I have noticed over the past 2 years that people here in the USA become TESTY when they hear SPANISH spoken aloud. Because of these recent experiences, I know that BROWN PEOPLE are regularly treated like 2ND CLASS CITIZENS when they should not. I have had neighbors tell me that they HATE MEXICANS when they have no reason to hate people with BROWN SKIN. I always shake my head and tell them that VERY GOOD PEOPLE COME FROM MEXICO. I explain that my travels to MEXICO and BAJA have allowed me to make connections with GOOD PEOPLE who immediately treat me like family. They want to talk about experiences in the USA and I tell them that I have been threatened, and given DIRTY LOOKS while traveling and living in the USA as well as in EUROPE and SCANDINAVIA. But, these people do not cause me to STEREOTYPE all WHITES as the same. My wife and I discuss RACISM AND PREJUDICE almost on a daily basis when she brings it up, how it affects her as a LATINA. I understand your frustrations, and I will do whatever I can to hold a clear dialogue with the land owner who has issues with the individuals who travel near his home/place of business. PAZ!

TMW - 2-23-2012 at 09:56 PM

Ken I think your 4 wheel drive buddies missed the point. It isn't about being Mexican. The point is they could have been a club from Denver or Bakersfield and they were disrespectfull to the property owner.

Ken Cooke - 2-23-2012 at 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
Ken I think your 4 wheel drive buddies missed the point. It isn't about being Mexican. The point is they could have been a club from Denver or Bakersfield and they were disrespectfull to the property owner.

The point everyone seems to be missing, is that these 4 Wheelers feel disrepected by the remarks about 'THE MEXICANS'. This along with a foreign land owner raises HISTORICAL IMPLICATIONS that make the issue at hand a challenging one for discussion.

Ken Cooke - 2-23-2012 at 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch
Racism, ignorance and an unwillingness to view something objectively are, clearly, not defined by nationality or skin color.

If I were reading material that contained disparaging remarks about AFRICAN AMERICANS, I would want to first address the tone of the information before dissecting the information. Think about it.

Ken Cooke - 2-24-2012 at 12:10 AM

Quote:

I believe this is the quote that made so many of the guys from the Jeep club so upset/angry. Read this over, and you decide.

astrobaja - 2-24-2012 at 08:06 AM

Ken, please 1st off thanks for the effort in trying to create a dialogue! Although really its so so difficult to do such a thing over the internet so much intent gets miscommunicated (anyone being on Nomads has seen this all too often!!!)

I understand how my remark of "Mexican" as a blanket statement could be interperted a racist, BUT if they read my subsequent posts they would notice that I talk about the good Mexican clubs too, such as the Cameleones. Personally I don't even believe in the whole concept of "race" there are different cultures but as for race we are all one race, homo sapiens sapiens.

When that particular club arrived that afternoon we got some pretty nasty comments hurled our way too, stuff like go back to America (even though we are not American) you don't have rights here, you are estranjeros, etc.
Not too nice considereing it was just me and my Wife Pamela here against 50-60 people some of whom were pretty drunk.

Hell if you want to argue whos "land" it really was it the Kiliwa, Pai Pai and Cochimis, everybody else is just here due to aggresive colonialism!!

Considering how poorly they acted up in the park (going into restricted areas, littering , urinating in front of the park office, being beligerent with the park staff, etc) this particlar club should consider themselves persona non grata from now on. The other more responsible clubs should be angry at their behavior and how it gives the rest a bad name.

Hook - 2-24-2012 at 08:18 AM

Can someone clarify? Was this a publicly used road for many years that ran through property that Astrobaja then purchased and then decided to put a gate across the road? Or is the road wholly within his property? Is there an entitiy that has de facto "ownership" of dirt roads in Mexico?

Just because someone owns acreage on both sides of a publicly used road doesnt necessarily mean they can control the road. I'm not saying that's the case, here. I dont know. But if the road has been a recognized public right-of-way road for many years, that right should continue.

Yes, it's unfortunate that the road might occasionally bring a bad element. All roads do that. But that doesnt give those residing along the road the "right" to close a road with a public right-of-way.

Astrobaja, curious about your likening this to someone having right of way through one's house. How far is this road from your living quarters? How much acreage do you have? Dont you have a secondary gate between this road and your house?

astrobaja - 2-24-2012 at 08:30 AM

Hi Hook,

There are 2 properties that overlay this small (probably 10km in length) section of road. The one which starts at the observatory road belongs to Soren Meling, Rancho La Joya (the way its been historically spelled) which is quite a large ranch around 3000-4000 acres. And ours rancho la Concepcion which is 1200 arces. The small section of the road which joins with the road that leads to R. Coyote and Mikes is probably Ejido Tepi.
We have talked to the Park director and the Military both seem to agree that this road is only a camino vecinal fro us and of course Soren Meling who has a key to the front gate (which the group from Mexicali broke, its totally bent).
In addition this section of road does not appear on any offical topo map.
When we bought the land from David Lang (Rancho Meling) he had the front gate locked and from time befre that we understand both Aida and Duane Meling had the road closed from time to time. Although we don't know how that was enforced.
Hope that somewhat clarifies things...

astrobaja - 2-24-2012 at 08:37 AM

Whoops forgot your question about how far the road is from our house. It passes about 80 feet from the house. We have 3 gates one from the north (Mikes) one at the little casita right by the main house and one by the main observatory road.

David K - 2-24-2012 at 08:42 AM

If you examine the maps I have posted, you can see that as recent as 2003, the road from Astro's place to the Observatory road is not shown... i.e. it is a 'new' road.

Before Astro (Mike) bought the land, the road was pushed through from Rancho Concepcion (now Baja Dark Skies Inn) to the Observatory road and the previous owner gave SCORE permission to use it for a Baja race.

It seems that if the above is true then it can hardly be considered 'grandfathered' as a right-of-way to the public. Remember it was the bad behavior by a 4WD club and marijuana farmers that caused AstroBaja to put up the gates in the first place. If people would be respectful then this road may have been left open. He certainly goes beyond the ordinary by opening the gate if he is asked to by the other 4wd and m/c clubs.

David K - 2-24-2012 at 09:13 AM

One should be judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character... someone once said (yes, Dr. King)...

The Mexicali club members were judged by how they acted, not by their race Ken... If they behaved as other 4WD clubs have, then astrobaja would not even be writing negatively about them. That he added 'Mexican' was important because it is their country, and as often as some like to label Americans as being 'ugly' tourists and disrespectful of the locals or land, it was Mexicans in Mexico who were.

The comments keep coming in...

Ken Cooke - 2-24-2012 at 11:40 PM

......well, his comment was more about " MÉXICANS" i sense a lot RACISM in his words and bragging about how his wife broke somebody's window i téll you what if that was my car it would've end up pretty bad for him anyways he can do wherever he wants and we can do werever we want right, men why can't we all just get along
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In da words of Dave chappele "white power" hahaha!!! i read that whole article & have to agree on both sides I've gone on that route before & hope to go on it again!!! But don't get me wrong #itch comes at me with that shovel I'll ########. Now can We all Just off road along !!! My 2 pesos

-
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I'm not racist I hate you all the same "middlefinger" jajajaja
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And by doing that, you dont discriminate anyone, lol...
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astrobaja - 2-25-2012 at 08:39 AM

Wow never been called a racist before.... Listen you don't really know me at all Ken, and I don't know you so lets not go making heavy handed jugements about each others moral character, ok?

I think if any of my friends saw your post (and they come from lots of different cultures) they would get a chuckle!

Just to set the record straight my Wife (who btw is NOT a #itch) did not break the window. I was not bragging I was just stating what happened.

That group did break the law, and the act of breaking the front gate was a delito mayor. I don't feel that we have to morally justify our actions, they broke the law 1st. But like I said before you could tell that some were visibly uncomfortable with what they were doing, they were being swept along by mob mentality of a few of the blowhards.

But all of this peeing around on the internet is going nowhere it seems, if a few of the club leaders want to meet with us and discuss in person we're fine with that! We're actually open to talk whereas a LOT of ranchers we know are not!

astrobaja - 2-25-2012 at 09:14 AM

Sorry ken I know its not you saying these things but it seems you are intimating it too. I just find it irritating that they jump to the "white" power, racism conclusion instead of addressing the much more real issue of breaking the law in pursuit of their "hobby"

It seems to just be a way of deflecting responsiblilty for the act of trespassing and intimidation.

[Edited on 2-25-2012 by astrobaja]

shari - 2-25-2012 at 09:40 AM

I'm sure if the culprits were a canadian off road club, astrobaja would have said a bunch of drunk canadians...funny, it doesnt seem racist if you're talking about honkeys eh?? why is that?

I"m glad there may be some face to face dialogue to resolve this issue...hang in there star gazers.

Diver - 2-25-2012 at 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Cooke
If I were reading material that contained disparaging remarks about AFRICAN AMERICANS, I would want to first address the tone of the information before dissecting the information. Think about it.

So you're saying that you're one of those "get peeed first and ask questions later" kind of african americans ?
Think about it your own bad self.

Russ - 2-25-2012 at 09:59 AM

Whoa !! The race card should never been played here. I believe mentioning where this rouge group came from was in hopes that interested others could spread the word that this area club was undesirable. astrobaja also mentioned drunks and that was the point. I think most of us have had dealings with drunks and know there is no reasoning with them. And dealing with a group of drunks on a mission would be terrorizing given the circumstances. Just my 2¢

DianaT - 2-25-2012 at 10:11 AM

It seems quite unfortunate that the idea of "race" came into this problem. JMHO, but I don't see astrobaja as distinguishing between ethic groups in trying to work out a difficult situation.

Perhaps some of the readers of his posts can be considered a bit hypersensitive, but perhaps that is also a bit justified for a couple of reasons.

1. There is an increase in anti-Mexican sentiment in the US because of the immigration issues----some of this is not just on personal levels, but on legal levels with laws passed aimed toward the Mexicans. Yes, astrobaja is Canadian, but that in many minds is a subtle difference, and the Canadians are not the targets of the anti-immigration sentiments and laws.

2. There are many, many US citizens and Canadians who either live full or part time in Mexico, or visit Mexico who don't really like the Mexicans unless the Mexicans are cleaning their houses or serving their food. And as several of our friends have shared with us, many Mexicans very much resent the arrogant attitudes of these immigrants and visitors that somehow they know how to do things better and that their so called "race" is superior. These attitudes are often displayed on this forum.

Thus while astrobaja's problem is a very specific problem and I hope the discussions work to solve the problem in very positive ways, and while I believe astrobaja would have been just as upset no matter where that particular club came from, IMHO, I believe he has been caught up in the middle of a much deeper problem.

astrobaja - 2-25-2012 at 10:19 AM

Shari is that honkeys or hockeys? :tumble:

But sure we all know there "malandros" in every culture.

Thanks guys and gals for the vote of confidence, it means a lot!!

Word of the incident must be trickling down to other clubs, the Pasaditos another northern Baja group has put out word (from their Pres Dr. Mendrano)
to the members to please not drink excessively and please respect property lines and to be cordial to locals. For that we salute them!!

Mike and Pamela

motoged - 2-25-2012 at 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
I'm sure if the culprits were a canadian off road club, astrobaja would have said a bunch of drunk canadians...

Shari,
So....if we are sitting behind Juan's Wall and having a few c-cktails in the sun and out of the wind (say, it's at least 10:30 AM) and we lose track of our drink count....do I call you a drunk Canuck or a borracha Mexicana???? :biggrin:

shari - 2-25-2012 at 10:34 AM

hahahaha Ged...or in spanish...jejejejeje...whatever tickles your fancy!

People have told me I have 2 different personalities depending on which language I am speaking...in spanish, I gesture more, am more animated and my voice goes up an octave...and I drink Tecate instead of Blue...weird eh.

Astros...living in Mexico is not for the faint of heart or spirit. One encounters these problemas often and they are not fun to deal with. Be firm, patient, kind and creative and solutions will come eventually.

Ken Cooke - 2-25-2012 at 12:17 PM

AstroBaja,

I simply posted comments from others. These are not my comments - I tried to create a healthy dialogue, but it devolved into comments about race and violence. End of comment posting from that particular club.

I do believe that the problem should be stated in more DIPLOMATIC terminology in order to AVOID this sort of conversation.

I tried to, "Get the word out" among 4WD club members, and this is what I got. But, I do not speak in terms of violence or race, just trying to stay on-topic for the purpose of hopefully keeping a route available to persons like myself with a love for Baja and this region near the Observatory and Sierra San Pedro Martir Park.

In fact, I have made friends with some of the park employees and local residents as you can see in these photos.

In short, I am not calling you a RASICT and if I was to find fault with your terminology, I would use more FOCUSED language with you. Relax.
SSPM Park Employee Emigdio Salgado Chacon

Me pictured near my friend Andrew Simpkins (RIP) and a team of guys helping to repair DESERTBULL'S damaged trailer.

Quote:

Originally posted by astrobaja
Wow never been called a racist before.... Listen you don't really know me at all Ken, and I don't know you so lets not go making heavy handed jugements about each others moral character, ok?

[Edited on 2-25-2012 by Ken Cooke]

Ken Cooke - 2-25-2012 at 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

1. There is an increase in anti-Mexican sentiment in the US because of the immigration issues----

During my last Baja 4WD trip, my Wife and I stopped in Valle de la Trinidad for dinner. The big screen TV was set to CNN (USA), during the REPUBLICAN DEBATES. Michele Bachmann was in the middle of one of her tirades and there sat Mrs. Cooke and I.

The way my Parents were treated in the 1950s and 60s, I feel an obligation to the Mexicans and Mexican-American people to be hospitable and accomodating, because of the long discussions my Parents had with my Brothers and I about how "The White Man" treated my Parents in the South in the 1940s and 1950s and here in S. California in the 1950s-1970s.

Ken Cooke - 2-25-2012 at 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Tirades? I guess you like it when Obama bows to the Saudi king or apologizes for the U.S. at every possible chance... :rolleyes:

During dinner, Michele Bachmann was yelling (w/the 60" Plasma TV cranked up), "WE HAVE GOT TO BUILD A 30 FOOT WALL TO KEEP THE ILLEGALS OUT!!" Normally, I don't like Tea Party Conservative talk, but during a PEACEFUL Baja trek in Baja?? It felt like PUNISHMENT to say the least.

I stand UNITED with my LATINO brothers and sisters. :!:

Cypress - 2-25-2012 at 01:12 PM

Whoopi-doo to you! :biggrin:

wessongroup - 2-25-2012 at 01:28 PM

WOW ... and we aren't in OT !!!! :lol:

Diver - 2-25-2012 at 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Cooke

During dinner, Michele Bachmann was yelling (w/the 60" Plasma TV cranked up), "WE HAVE GOT TO BUILD A 30 FOOT WALL TO KEEP THE ILLEGALS OUT!!" Normally, I don't like Tea Party Conservative talk, but during a PEACEFUL Baja trek in Baja?? It felt like PUNISHMENT to say the least.

I stand UNITED with my LATINO brothers and sisters. :!:

Doesn't matter that the adjacent country is Mexico; could be any other country, color or language. The point is that our border is being breeched by folks who do not have a right to be here. And that so many of our neighbors want to come here to escape their own country.
Build the wall and you can still visit your Latin bro's just as you do now. You just won't have to worry as much about CA and the US going bankrupt. And read the police blotter in our area; 60% of the drug and violent crime perpetrators are illegals or the children of illegals.
.

wessongroup - 2-25-2012 at 01:38 PM

Glad they are Catholic ... just saying

Diver - 2-25-2012 at 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
Glad they are Catholic ... just saying

We accept all religions; this is not a matter of religion or racism, it's a matter of security and economy, not a matter of having friends from other places.
Everyone needs on approved VISA to enter for whatever purpose or length of stay as we do in Mexico, Canada, etc.
My great grandmother came from Europe and lived here under a VISA for many years.

To idealistically remove all borders in our world would be moving backward to the days of migration and group/tribe territories which would get us more conflict with more groups in smaller areas - worse yet.

Just my "just saying" Wess, not a rebuttal to you.
.

Bajaboy - 2-25-2012 at 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diver

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
Glad they are Catholic ... just saying

If this is about security, shouldn't we build a wall on the northern border, too? Seems like a few terrorists have been known to come down through Canada.....

wessongroup - 2-25-2012 at 02:14 PM

Yeah, plus all that "COLD" air that comes sweeping down in the winter .. :biggrin:

astrobaja - 2-25-2012 at 02:16 PM

Ok Ken I gotcha, peace ok?? See this is why the internet is NOT the forum for any sort of negotiations like this, throw in a language barrier and its doubly rife for misunderstanding!

Our grasp of Spanish is pretty good face to face, but jeez over the internet all bets are off it seems, just degenerates the way things often do.

People lets lay off Ken, I think Dianas right whether we like it or not politics of north of the border (especially the Az fiassco) affect how Mexican nationals view immigrants to Mexico.

I think Ken a lot of the park guys you know have moved on to different jobs, although Alfredo is still there (the same one as in Graham McIntoshes book on the sierra).

About the off roaders we still would prefer it if the majority passed by the Coyote route, unless of course they want to visit us.

peace out

Mike and Pamela

Diver - 2-25-2012 at 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
If this is about security, shouldn't we build a wall on the northern border, too? Seems like a few terrorists have been known to come down through Canada.....

Security and economy.
And by "wall" I mean an adequate method of securing our border.
The "security" need may be the same for both borders but the "economy" need is greater on the southern border at this time.
I am not against a similar "wall" on our northern border at some time if the need becomes as great.
Also, are you talking national security or the security of small towns and others from increased crime ? I'm talking both.

[Edited on 2-25-2012 by Diver]

desertcpl - 2-25-2012 at 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diver

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Whoopi-doo to you! :biggrin:

Don't get down on Ken.
He is a Latin lover; bought one and brought her home !

that was completely uncalled for

Ken Cooke - 2-25-2012 at 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by astrobaja
Ok Ken I gotcha, peace ok??

People lets lay off Ken, I think Dianas right whether we like it or not politics of north of the border (especially the Az fiassco) affect how Mexican nationals view immigrants to Mexico.

I think Ken a lot of the park guys you know have moved on to different jobs, although Alfredo is still there (the same one as in Graham McIntoshes book on the sierra).

About the off roaders we still would prefer it if the majority passed by the Coyote route, unless of course they want to visit us.

peace out

Mike and Pamela

This information was posted on the Baja 4X4 forum for more people to read and discuss. Hopefully, the topic of a looming land closure will not be obscured by subtopics discussed above.

Baja4x4 thread:
http://www.baja4x4.org/foro/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19487&am...

Diver - 2-25-2012 at 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by desertcpl
that was completely uncalled for

OK, I'll delete mine and you can delete yours and we can all be just like DK.

Sorry but I was just stating the facts as I know them.
Didn't Ken post about the "introduction Service" or some such thing through which he met his wife ?
I believe that you pay for such services.

A friend "bought" a European girl; paid for her intro service, VISA, airfare, living expenses ......
Perhaps I phrased it wrong for you ?
.

Diver - 2-25-2012 at 09:27 PM

Who said I was judging ?

Just stating the facts as I got them from Ken; why is this bull ?
If Ken is open enough to tell us about it, why should you be offended ?

woody with a view - 2-25-2012 at 09:39 PM

Quote:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not racist I hate you all the same "middlefinger" jajajaja
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And by doing that, you dont discriminate anyone, lol...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i think we all have been following (with tongues dragging!) Ken's nuptials.........

that said, i'm not following the turns of your (plural, as in all ya'alls) intestines like some are known to do, but if the above doesn't make you SCREAM with laughter-at yourselves as well as others, well, YOU SUCK!

all of you!!!

:light:

Barry A. - 2-25-2012 at 10:48 PM

As to the original problem brought up by Astro---------I was the Chief Ranger and later Recreation and Law Enforcement Branch Chief in El Centro for the Southern California Desert District of the BLM for 13 years (1973 thru 1986), and in implementing the "plan" for the use of the California Desert we closed a lot of roads that had been used by the public in the past--------and those closures were about 90% unsuccessful---------nothing worked in the way of barriers, baracades, fences, large stones, concrete blocks, reenforced concrete, trenches, and steel barriers, etc. etc......They were all just "challenges" to the rogues within the Off-road community.

----UNTIL we really got in and worked with the OFF-ROAD community and clubs----talked a lot, and listened even more-------then gradually we, and the clubs, made some progress in compromise. But understand, the problem will ALWAYS be there--------some folks just won't compromise!!!!

My conclusion: gates anger some folks, period (heck, they anger me!!!). And when people get angry, they do some radical things that they would not ordinarily do. Don't fight these people, Astro, work with them and be patient---it takes a lot of time and work, and ANY hostility on your part sets you back days, weeks and months, IMO.

The accusation that there was ANY racism in this situation is just plain silly, IMO, and bringing it up just alienates folks from each other. Don't be so bloody sensitive------it seldom gets you anywhere in the long run---------people "say things", and nothing you angrily rebut with will change anything, IMO, other than destroying conversation and causing more hostility.

(this whole situation brings up nightmares with me)

Barry

bufeo - 2-26-2012 at 08:58 AM

Good post, Barry.

Allen R

astrobaja - 2-26-2012 at 09:33 AM

Wow Barry thanks for that, can't imagine the job you had to do! A nightmare indeed!

I'm sure some of that rogue element is now coming to Baja Norte where the perception is that they can do here whatever they like.

I am also reading the really nasty things ranchowners in the USA are doing to trespassing
off roaders like wires across roads at tire level to flip someone off their bike, jeez its like a war zone, no wonder the BLM are armed now! (arn't they?)

Luckily for us we are in communication with various clubs and most of all that there is an alternate route!!! This is key, otherwise we could never win!
But like you say I'm sure it will never go away 100% All we can hope for is to minimize the problem.

One thing going for us is that the Mexican attitude towards life is a bit more accomodating and relaxed, they will take the path of less resistence whenever possible.

Right now we dread every weekend, and are basically not able to leave for fear of some "desmadre" happening!!

anyhow thanks again Barry for your insights!

Mike

Ken Cooke - 2-26-2012 at 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view

Quote:

I decided to stop posting comments from the club members. If they are inclinded to do so, they can register with BN and post their thoughts here.

The "middlefinger" comment was posted by a NORTHERN European/Scandanavian who resides in Mexico - a European/Mexican(?). He was attempting to diffuse the tension by his post.

I agree with Barry A. with regards to working with the 4WD clubs. To piggyback off of Barry A's comments, AstroBaja would benefit by allowing local 4WD Clubs from the Mexican region to MAINTAIN the routes near his Home/Place of Business in the form of an ADOPT A TRAIL. When the rogue individuals have any beef, AstroBaja AND the local 4WD Clubs can address the individuals. I am willing to bet the same individuals who made the "Middlefinger" comment would be interested in assistance in maintaining the trail for AstroBaja since they also indicated that they enjoyed the route past La Concepcion/Baja Dark Skies and The Observatory.

As for me "buying" or making some sort of "purchase" - That has got to be one of the ignorant things I have ever heard. Are you kidding, Diver?

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