BajaNomad - El Volcan no longer exists as we once knew it

El Volcan no longer exists as we once knew it

wilderone - 3-6-2012 at 10:16 AM

You can imagine my disappointment and astonishment to see how the Olvidada mine roadwork has decimated the very special El Volcan area. Anticipating a quiet evening in the pristine desert environment, I came upon this:

There is a huge tank of some sort, and a new hole in the ground at the junction filled with mineralized water from the onyx spring. And now a gravel “road” alongside the bedrock to the large pool where the water truck now sucks up water to spray the widened, graded road:

The grading disturbance turned this:

into this:

The nice white sand arroyo that used to look like this? :

Now looks like this:

Complete with truck traffic:

The picturesque “Baja” road that we knew and loved:

Now looks like this:

No longer can you pull off the road to find a nice campsite because the sand berm and disturbed rocks and gravel from the grading create a barrier – the entire distance from the schoolhouse at El Marmol to El Volcan. You used to be ble to go straight OR make the right turn to El Volcan. That turnoff area has been widened about 20 feet and the rocks and debris now prevent access to the road continuing straight ahead. This was where you could pull off and find 3 or 4 perfect campsites:

I had a special purpose planned this trip. Remember elbeau’s lost mission discovery and the Nomad hike to find it? I wanted to commemorate the spot – “Site B” – with this sign:

I thought I could still camp at the junction on the other side of the arroyo on the mesa, and do the hike the next day, but mesa access is also prohibited by sand berm, gravel and rocks. I turned around and camped at El Marmol. An adventure foiled.

I doubt that I will ever go to El Volcan again – there is little left to enjoy. If anyone wants to venture forth and plant my sign, you’re welcome to it. I’m sorry, elbeau, that I didn’t get the job done.

Very sad.

[Edited on 3-6-2012 by wilderone]

TMW - 3-6-2012 at 10:42 AM

That's to bad. We weren't sure they would actually work the mine when we were there. Just figured it was being setup to be sold, but what do we know.

tripledigitken - 3-6-2012 at 10:51 AM

Does anyone know what they are mining?

bajalou - 3-6-2012 at 11:26 AM

Baruim

David K - 3-6-2012 at 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
Does anyone know what they are mining?

BARITE...

See the road and mine, as it was last April/ May (2011):

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=52779

From Wikipedia:

Baryte, or barite, (BaSO4) is a mineral consisting of barium sulfate.[2] The baryte group consists of baryte, celestine, anglesite and anhydrite.Baryte itself is generally white or colorless, and is the main source of barium. Baryte and celestine form a solid solution (Ba,Sr)SO4.[1]

The name baryte is derived from the Greek word βαρύς (heavy). The American spelling barite[2] is used bythe USGS[7] and more often used in modern Scientific journals including those published by the Netherlands-based Elsevier journals. The International Mineralogical Association adopted "barite" as the official spelling when it formed in 1959[citation needed], but recommended adopting the older"baryte" spelling in 1978,[8] notably ignored by the Mineralogical Society of America. The American Petroleum Institute specification API 13/ISO 13500 which governs baryte for drilling purposes does not refer to any specific mineral, but rather a material that meets that specification, in practice this is usually the mineral baryte.

The term "primary baryte" refers to the first marketable product, which includes crude baryte (run of mine) and the products of simple beneficiation methods, such as washing, jigging, heavy media separation, tabling, flotation. Most crude baryte requires some upgrading to minimum purity or density. Baryte that is used as an aggregate in a "heavy" cement is crushed and screened to a uniform size. Most baryte is ground to a small, uniform size before it is used as a filler or extender, an addition to industrial products, or a weighting agent in petroleum well drilling mud

UsesSome 77% worldwide is used as a weighting agent for drilling fluids in oil and gas exploration to suppress high formation pressures and prevent blowouts. As a well is drilled, the bit passes through various formations, each with different characteristics. The deeper the hole, the more barite is needed as a percentage of the total mud mix. An additional benefit of barite is that it is non-magnetic and thus does not interfere with magnetic measurements taken in the borehole, either during logging-while-drilling or in separate drill hole logging. Barite used for drilling petroleum wells can be black, blue, brown or gray depending on the ore body. The barite is finely ground so that at least 97% of the material, by weight, can pass through a 200-mesh (75-μm) screen, and no more than 30%, by weight, can be less than 6 μm diameter. The ground barite also must be dense enough so that its specific gravity is 4.2 or greater, soft enough to not damage the bearings of a tricone drill bit, chemically inert, and containing no more than 250 milligrams per kilogram of soluble alkaline salts.[7]

Other uses are in added-value applications which include filler in paint and plastics, sound reduction in engine compartments, coat of automobile finishes for smoothness and corrosion resistance, friction products for automobiles and trucks, radiation-shielding cement, glass ceramics and medical applications (for example, a barium meal before a contrast CAT scan). Baryte is supplied in a variety of forms and the price depends on the amount of processing; filler applications commanding higher prices following intense physical processing by grinding and micronising, and there are further premiums for whiteness and brightness and color.[7]

Historically baryte was used for the production of barium hydroxide for sugar refining, and as a white pigment for textiles, paper, and paint.[2]

Although baryte contains a "heavy" metal (barium), it is not considered to be a toxic chemical by most governments because of its extreme insolubility.
===========================================

[Edited on 3-6-2012 by David K]

David K - 3-6-2012 at 12:32 PM

Cindi, what a bummer you couldn't drive over the berm made by the grader to get to the north road (leads to some drug runner airport strips ditched by the army)!

So, I guess you didn't walk to the geyser?

How cool of you to make those signs... I hope you will let elbeau know!

Baja is full of minerals folks, and if the value of them gets high enough, mines will open up. Too bad that instead of coming in from Hwy. 1, they didn't have a port on the gulf and make a new road down the mountain, giving us a short cut across Baja!
Thanks for the (sad) update on the El Volcan road.

Islandbuilder - 3-6-2012 at 12:32 PM

Barium dust is considered hazardous, it is believed to cause hypertension. I had a big run around with our well when we found elevated barium levels.

If you're driving the road and notice your left eye twitching and your pulse racing, wait to keep going until the dust settles!

I'm sorry to see this place getting, well, used like it is. I have been intriqued with it ever since reading about it in the Baja Adventure book, and DavidK's posts.

I guess I missed it:-(

David K - 3-6-2012 at 12:38 PM

Happily, the road improvement has not disturbed the geyser, from what Wilderone has posted... The geyser is 1/2 mile up the arroyo from where the Olvidada mine road crosses it.

The mineral is barite (baryte), not pure barium, being mined there... it is not dangerous (per Wikipedia): "Although baryte contains a "heavy" metal (barium), it is not considered to be a toxic chemical by most governments because of its extreme insolubility."

MMc - 3-6-2012 at 12:38 PM

Just a shame. Many of you have told me to accept change. I do, but morn for the way things were.

MMc

wilderone - 3-6-2012 at 02:22 PM

David - I've been to the geyser more than once. It was after 5:00 pm when I arrived, and sundown was an hour away. The trucks were coming and going, and I was parked on the road - couldn't pull off anywhere. I considered driving the gravel road they made going toward the geyser to camp somewhere at the end of it, when the water truck came down that road. Just too much activity and dust.

"...you couldn't drive over the berm made by the grader to get to the north road"
It's more than a berm at that point - it's large boulders and debris about 6 ft. high from carving out about 20 ft of cliff.

Bajaboy - 3-6-2012 at 02:30 PM

Drill baby drill

vgabndo - 3-6-2012 at 03:04 PM

The problem with omelets, I guess, is all the broken eggs.

David K - 3-6-2012 at 03:10 PM

Good one Perry! :cool:

Mexitron - 3-6-2012 at 08:25 PM

Tis sad...on the other hand it was a mining road that someone put in for the original road too. Was there any signs or gates prohibiting driving further in on the road from Volcan? What the heck, may as well see some new country. Once the mine is tapped and a couple chubascos blow out the canyon it'll look about the same as it did before, hopefully.

wilderone - 3-6-2012 at 10:16 PM

I didn't encounter any signs prohibiting driving on the road, but not to say it couldn't be so in the future, and I didn't go past El Volcan. I intend to write SEMARNAT and submit photos. I often see indication of SEMARNAT oversight on coastal regions, but they should protect sensitive geologic areas too. At least impose reclamation regulations on mining projects that are so disruptive; that is the "state of the art" now.

David K - 3-6-2012 at 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
I didn't encounter any signs prohibiting driving on the road, but not to say it couldn't be so in the future, and I didn't go past El Volcan. I intend to write SEMARNAT and submit photos. I often see indication of SEMARNAT oversight on coastal regions, but they should protect sensitive geologic areas too. At least impose reclamation regulations on mining projects that are so disruptive; that is the "state of the art" now.

It may also be in the Valle de los Cirios Natural Area!? :light:

woody with a view - 3-7-2012 at 06:26 AM

that sucks! oh well, at least you had the privilege of enjoying it before it lost its soul forever....

DK, shouldn't you be spouting off about progress and how the people of Baja will benefit?

David K - 3-7-2012 at 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
that sucks! oh well, at least you had the privilege of enjoying it before it lost its soul forever....

DK, shouldn't you be spouting off about progress and how the people of Baja will benefit?

Personally, I like bad roads... as it filters out any bad people! As for the road work to this mine, it was coming.... just like the paving of Mex. 1 and now Mex. 5... Some of us don't like it, but that is just progress.

Barite is used to drill for oil... and as Bajaboy said above, we need to "drill baby drill"... as long as we want to prosper on this planet!

I hate drinking that stuff

durrelllrobert - 3-7-2012 at 12:35 PM

Barium From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search Not to be confused with Borium.
caesium ← barium → lanthanum
Sr
↑
Ba
↓
Ra

56BaPeriodic table

Appearance
silvery gray

General properties
Name, symbol, number barium, Ba, 56
Pronunciation /ˈbɛəriəm/ BAIR-ee-əm
Element category alkaline earth metals
Group, period, block 2, 6, s
Standard atomic weight 137.33
Electron configuration [Xe] 6s2
Electrons per shell 2, 8, 18, 18, 8, 2 (Image)
Physical properties
Phase solid
Density (near r.t.) 3.51 g·cm−3
Liquid density at m.p. 3.338 g·cm−3
Melting point 1000 K, 727 °C, 1341 °F
Boiling point 2170 K, 1897 °C, 3447 °F
Heat of fusion 7.12 kJ·mol−1
Heat of vaporization 140.3 kJ·mol−1
Molar heat capacity 28.07 J·mol−1·K−1
Vapor pressure
P (Pa) 1 10 100 1 k 10 k 100 k
at T (K) 911 1038 1185 1388 1686 2170

Atomic properties
Oxidation states 2
(strongly basic oxide)
Electronegativity 0.89 (Pauling scale)
Ionization energies 1st: 502.9 kJ·mol−1
2nd: 965.2 kJ·mol−1
3rd: 3600 kJ·mol−1
Atomic radius 222 pm
Covalent radius 215±11 pm
Van der Waals radius 268 pm
Miscellanea
Crystal structure body-centered cubic
Magnetic ordering paramagnetic
Electrical resistivity (20 °C) 332 nΩ·m
Thermal conductivity 18.4 W·m−1·K−1
Thermal expansion (25 °C) 20.6 µm·m−1·K−1
Speed of sound (thin rod) (20 °C) 1620 m·s−1
Young's modulus 13 GPa
Shear modulus 4.9 GPa
Bulk modulus 9.6 GPa
Mohs hardness 1.25
CAS registry number 7440-39-3
Most stable isotopes
Main article: Isotopes of barium
iso NA half-life DM DE (MeV) DP
130Ba 0.106% 130Ba is stable with 74 neutrons
132Ba 0.101% 132Ba is stable with 76 neutrons
133Ba syn 10.51 y ε 0.517 133Cs
134Ba 2.417% 134Ba is stable with 78 neutrons
135Ba 6.592% 135Ba is stable with 79 neutrons
136Ba 7.854% 136Ba is stable with 80 neutrons
137Ba 11.23% 137Ba is stable with 81 neutrons
138Ba 71.7% 138Ba is stable with 82 neutrons

v ·t ·e· r

Barium ( /ˈbɛəriəm/ BAIR-ee-əm) is a chemical element with the symbol Ba and atomic number 56. It is the fifth element in Group 2, a soft silvery metallic alkaline earth metal. Barium is never found in nature in its pure form due to its reactivity with air. Its oxide is historically known as baryta but it reacts with water and carbon dioxide and is not found as a mineral. The most common naturally occurring minerals are the very insoluble barium sulfate, BaSO4 (barite), and barium carbonate, BaCO3 (witherite). Barium's name originates from Greek barys (βαρύς

, meaning "heavy", describing the high density of some common barium-containing ores.

Barium has few industrial applications, but the metal has been historically used to scavenge air in vacuum tubes. Barium compounds impart a green color to flames and have been used in fireworks. Barium sulfate is used for its density, insolubility, and X-ray opacity. It is used as an insoluble heavy additive to oil well drilling mud, and in purer form, as an X-ray radiocontrast agent for imaging the human gastrointestinal tract. Soluble barium compounds are poisonous due to release of the soluble barium ion, and have been used as rodenticides. New uses for barium continue to be sought. It is a component of some "high temperature" YBCO superconductors, and electroceramics.

vgabndo - 3-7-2012 at 01:25 PM

Hey, as a dye in radiology it is pretty cool. I can put the DVDs of my CT scans up on this same screen and the contrast provided by this B! of a compound reveals amazing new detail. In my case, the total loss of Barium would only result in more uncertainty about my ultimate certainty! Many forms of metastasis would be reasonably treatable IF found in time. Fortunately for me, we've been too stupid to foresee the end of oil, and that industry will insure that there will be plenty of that disgusting Barium laced stuff for me to drink.

Could Barium and 167 xrays every 180 days cause a completely unrelated cancer? I'd rather worry about what the road in this thread might look like in the very unlikely event I ever see it on my travels in Baja. :lol:

we don't need to drill, it's just that we are too lazy to conserve

mtgoat666 - 3-7-2012 at 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

dk: the aztecs, incas, greeeks, romans, egyptians, chinese, and many, many cultures and empires and civilizations prospered without petroleum fuels -- so your statement that we need to drill for oil to prosper is ridiculous! eh? just saying.... if all the oil disappeared tomorrow, people would still prosper. we don't need to drill, it's just that we are too lazy to conserve

David K - 3-7-2012 at 02:54 PM

Goat, if you want to go back 2000 years to live as a Greek, I will understand completely!

Durrelllrobert and Vgabndo... La Olvidada is a barite (baryte) mine, not a barium mine.

From Wikipedia (see entire article above): "Although baryte contains a "heavy" metal (barium), it is not considered to be a toxic chemical by most governments because of its extreme insolubility."

Also: "Historically baryte was used for the production of barium hydroxide for sugar refining, and as a white pigment for textiles, paper, and paint."

BajaBlanca - 3-7-2012 at 03:34 PM

The photos so tell the story .... it does astound me that some folks get fined for removing a cactus from the desert to replant in their garden or furthermore have to replant every single plant before they can build on a property (Loreto people told me this) while other companies go in a ravage the desert and it is tolerated ... no comprendo la machina, as the Joaquin loves to say !

David K - 3-7-2012 at 03:58 PM

Blanca, one could cry when they built Hwy. 1 through the desert in 1973... I would say about 200 meters wide was bulldozed clear of cardons, boojums (cirios), and everyting else to build up the base for the Transpeninsular Highway... The old main road it replaced went between the giant cactus... but from El Rosario to San Ignacio in the heavily vegetation of cactus, all was clear-cut. Nearly 40 years later, I don't think there is any new growth that you can see coming up ... not yet.

bajalou - 3-7-2012 at 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Durrelllrobert and Vgabndo... La Olvidada is a barite (baryte) mine, not a barium mine.

From Wikipedia (see entire article above): "Although baryte contains a "heavy" metal (barium), it is not considered to be a toxic chemical by most governments because of its extreme insolubility."

Seems to me they are pretty much the same.

"Baryte, or barite, (BaSO4) is a mineral consisting of barium sulfate.[2] The baryte group consists of baryte, celestine, anglesite and anhydrite. Baryte itself is generally white or colorless, and is the main source of barium. Baryte and celestine form a solid solution (Ba,Sr)SO"

From Wikipedia

Barry A. - 3-7-2012 at 04:47 PM

I love mines, and the activity around them----------they fascinate me!!! Always have. But then windmills on the horizon don't bother me either----I think they are beautiful if they are running. :lol:

Different strokes for different folks.

I guess this makes me a quasi-greenie capitolist abuser of sorts, or something like that. :light:

But, I do feel badly for those that this type of activity upsets, and understand their concerns. :yes:

Progress can be rough---------

Barry

David K - 3-7-2012 at 05:27 PM

Lou, barite (baryte) which is what the mine produces is not hazardous. From it can be extracted barium... but barium does not exist by-itself in nature, or at least in Baja at La Olvidada. There is already enough hysteria on this web site without adding that trucks are polluting the desert with barium (which is what some will claim after reading parts of this thread).

watizname - 3-7-2012 at 09:00 PM

I've only heard on one guy lately who DIDN'T use gas or an oil product to get to Baja to have their fun, or get to the market or get the kids to school or get the fish to the packing plant----or------ seems like we need to continue to drill. I'm all for saving the environment, but we have to sacrafice some of it to make life livable. The good old days had Horse pucky in the streets, and we were killing whales to get light at night.

Bajaboy - 3-7-2012 at 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by watizname
I've only heard on one guy lately who DIDN'T use gas or an oil product to get to Baja to have their fun, or get to the market or get the kids to school or get the fish to the packing plant----or------ seems like we need to continue to drill. I'm all for saving the environment, but we have to sacrafice some of it to make life livable. The good old days had Horse pucky in the streets, and we were killing whales to get light at night.

Increase supply or decrease demand.....putting up oil platforms off the coast of Oceanside is not an option in my opinion
:light:

Barry A. - 3-7-2012 at 11:30 PM

Quote:

[
Increase supply or decrease demand.....putting up oil platforms off the coast of Oceanside is not an option in my opinion
:light:

"Platforms" have been off the coast of Santa Barbara for eons----------I hardly notice them.

Barry

mtgoat666 - 3-8-2012 at 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

[
Increase supply or decrease demand.....putting up oil platforms off the coast of Oceanside is not an option in my opinion
:light:

"Platforms" have been off the coast of Santa Barbara for eons----------I hardly notice them.

Barry

that's because you live 500 miles away in Redding, duh! :lol:

Cypress - 3-8-2012 at 06:22 AM

Oil rigs make fantastic fish havens. Some of the best fishing in the Gulf of Mexico takes place around off-shore oil rigs.

RnR - 3-8-2012 at 06:53 AM

If it can't be GROWN it has to be MINED.

Barry A. - 3-8-2012 at 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

[
Increase supply or decrease demand.....putting up oil platforms off the coast of Oceanside is not an option in my opinion
:light:

"Platforms" have been off the coast of Santa Barbara for eons----------I hardly notice them.

Barry

that's because you live 500 miles away in Redding, duh! :lol:

But I "see" thru Dennis Miller's eyes. :lol:

Bary

Bajaboy - 3-8-2012 at 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Increase supply or decrease demand.....putting up oil platforms off the coast of Oceanside is not an option in my opinion
:light:

Why isn't it an option? We need the oil and if the oil is there on our territory...

that would be the greatest thing for everyone... if that is where the oil is!

But, we already know where the oil is, and it is on land... land closed by Obama!

Why? Well, maybe:

a) force the price of oil to go up (what he has publically stated he wants to happen)... he needs to force people to buy his GM electric cars... and

b) ... (fill in the blank)...

Uh DK, just to let you know...there is oil off the coast of California. In case you don't remember, there was also a major oil spill in 1969 that caused major havoc with the migrating (to Baja) gray whales and their calving babies.

Again turn off the Faux News and you might learn something :?:

You can begin here:
http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/sb_69oilspill/69oilspill_arti...

Oh wait, this comes from a University which is probably a voice box of the elitist liberal left..... :barf:

David K - 3-8-2012 at 02:19 PM

1969... a lot has been learned and improved since then... shallow water drilling is easy... Gray whales are in greater numbers than ever.

Where the oil companies are forced to go now into deep water is where problems can happen as in the Gulf of Mexico.

What is 'Faux' News? :lol:

Cypress - 3-8-2012 at 02:32 PM

It's a no-brainer. If you don't drill for oil , you won't find oil. The operative term, in case you missed it, is "no-brainer".

When you run out of gas, thank a liberal.

David K - 3-8-2012 at 02:39 PM

It's like they live is some kind of fantasy land where more people on food stamps is better than more people who don't need them! Just okay the pipe line from Canada and BOOM, thousands of new jobs and a direct supply of what we need. Seriously, liberalism IS a mental disorder! :rolleyes:

SFandH - 3-8-2012 at 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Just okay the pipe line from Canada and BOOM, thousands of new jobs and a direct supply of what we need. Seriously, liberalism IS a mental disorder! :rolleyes:

Currently Canada sells 98% of its exported oil to the United States. The existing pipelines from Canada terminate in the midwest of the United States.

The Canadian government has stated that the objective of extending the pipeline to the Gulf of Mexico is to diversify their customer base. As part of the Keystone project they have already lined up foreign (non-US) customers for their oil.

The Chinese are investing heavily in the development of the oil sands in Alberta.

The proposed underground Keystone XL pipeline was to go over the Ogallala Aquifer.

The Ogallala Aquifer supplies ~30% of the United States total irrigation water and ~82% of the drinking water for the >2.3 million people (1990 Census) who live within the aquifer boundary.[5] The region accounts for 19 percent of wheat, 19 percent of cotton, 15 percent of corn, 3 percent of sorghum, and 18 percent of cattle production in the U.S.

Suggest you study the issues before you form an opinion, especially opinions like millions of Americans are mentally ill.

You have just insulted a large part of the population.

David K - 3-8-2012 at 04:28 PM

I did study, and my research has found that transporting oil by pipeline is the safest method by far... beats tanker trucks and tanker ships by a long shot.

SFandH - 3-8-2012 at 04:34 PM

The current Keystone pipeline was predicted to have on average 1.4 leaks every 10 years. They had 14 in one year. 100 times what was predicted.

Safe, huh?

Cypress - 3-8-2012 at 04:36 PM

Having to hire welders based on affirmative action quotas? :?:

SFandH - 3-8-2012 at 04:40 PM

The leak rate is really not the issue. Just one catastrophic leak could pollute that aquifer. And the US would be taking that risk so the Canadians can sell their oil to countries other than the US.

mtgoat666 - 3-8-2012 at 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Seriously, liberalism IS a mental disorder! :rolleyes:

dk: nobody listens when you argue via insult!

good day!

watizname - 3-8-2012 at 04:41 PM

We need it. Drill It. :yes:

mtgoat666 - 3-8-2012 at 04:42 PM

we need it! learn how to conserve! :light:

bufeo - 3-8-2012 at 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Lou, barite (baryte) which is what the mine produces is not hazardous. ....

In its natural state it isn't hazardous, but when mining it a plethora of dust is produced. When hauling it...especially since the majority of those trucks in Baja don't cover their material...barite dust comes from the trucks.

Breathing that dust even for short periods of time is considered a health hazard. That's why the Hazardous Sheet for the material contains the warning:

PRECAUTIONS TO BE TAKEN IN HANDLING AND STORING Avoid breathing dust. Practice reasonable caution and personal cleanliness. Launder contaminated clothing before reuse. Store in a cool dry area

and:

IARC Monographs, Vol 68, 1997, concludes that there is sufficient evidence that inhaled crystalline sillica in the form of quartz or crysto-balite from occupational sources cause cancer in humans. IARC classification Group 1. Because of quantity and composition, the
health hazard is small.

That last sentence is important because, again, in its natural state (i.e. undisturbed, unmined, unpulverized) its health hazard is small.

But, to make the comment that it is NOT hazardous in dust form is incorrect.

As for the oil rigs in the Santa Barbara Channel we lived in the area for over forty years. I never liked seeing them, and I was glad that one of the better things that happened during Bush the Elder's term was that a moratorium on new leases went into effect (1990). Incidentally, that moratorium, legistration for which began during Reagan's term, expires sometime this year I think.

Allen R

SFandH - 3-8-2012 at 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Having to hire welders based on affirmative action quotas? :?:

Who knows, most likely they hired the guys that would work for the least amount of money. The tar sand "oil" is sludgy crap. It wasn't considered marketable until oil hit $100 a barrel. It doesn't flow, it needs to be dilluted with other hydrocarbons before entering the pipeline. And even then more pressure needs to be used. It's pure muck and the pipelines need to be designed to handle it.

There is a lot of debate on this number but I've read it costs $75 a barrel to extract. Economies of scale would probably bring that number down, but I'm not sure. It is true it takes a tremendous amount of water and a lot of polluted waste water is produced.

Plus there is a measurement that is the ratio of the amount of energy expended to get a barrel's worth energy. This stuff doesn't do to well in that department.

Getting hooked on tar sand oil will be an expensive and very dirty habit.

[Edited on 3-9-2012 by SFandH]

Cypress - 3-8-2012 at 05:48 PM

SFandH, I agree.

David K - 3-8-2012 at 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH
The current Keystone pipeline was predicted to have on average 1.4 leaks every 10 years. They had 14 in one year. 100 times what was predicted.

Safe, huh?

You know, a far more challanging pipeline was installed across Alaska many years ago, despite the hysteria of the left that it would destroy the state... Just why do you guys want America to become a third world country... why do you hate prosperity...??

Cypress - 3-8-2012 at 05:56 PM

We can and will drill and get our(USA) own oil as soon as we get rid of the liberal anchor around the neck of the USA. Bye-bye Obama!

David K - 3-8-2012 at 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bufeo

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Lou, barite (baryte) which is what the mine produces is not hazardous. ....

I took a couple ore samples, and I have to tell you that barite weighs a ton for its size! I don't see any dust if the ore is transported in chunk form... and I can't imagine they would process it down to a sand or dust size at the mine... Stamp mills need power and a place to do that... and La Olvidada is on the side of a mountain, overlooking El Huerfanito and El Muerto islands.

So, the only dust will be inside the mountain of the mine as they are drilling tunnels, and if it is trucked away in rock form, it is dust free... as I said it is both hard and heavy as iron!

SFandH - 3-8-2012 at 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH
The current Keystone pipeline was predicted to have on average 1.4 leaks every 10 years. They had 14 in one year. 100 times what was predicted.

Safe, huh?

Just why do you guys want America to become a third world country... why do you hate prosperity...??

I don't want the United States to become a third world country nor do I hate prosperity.

How did you come to those conclusions?

Bajaboy - 3-8-2012 at 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Increase supply or decrease demand.....putting up oil platforms off the coast of Oceanside is not an option in my opinion
:light:

Hey DK,

Bill O'Reilly and Fox News seem to agree with Obama and gas prices. See for yourself: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/video-fox-news-defends-president-...

Barry A. - 3-8-2012 at 10:41 PM

Bill O'Rielly is wrong this time. He really does not understand the oil market very well. (not that I do, you understand)

Barry

DianaT - 3-8-2012 at 11:10 PM

Ah yes, oil pipelines are much improved since the 1960's. :rolleyes:

Here is the Yellowstone River just last year after a "safe" Exxon pipe line leaked 42,000 gallons of oil into the river.

Photo Credit Larry Mayer/AP

Guess that could never happen to the Ogallala Aquifer.

OK, but the company says it will create about 20,000 jobs! Opps, a report from the Cornell University Global Labor Institute
reports that it would only create between 2,500-4,650 temporary positions for two years, and probably only about 50 of those would be permanent jobs in the US. They also state that in the long run, the project might kill more jobs than it creates. They also report on the likelihood of leaks. The Cornell Report

But I guess Faux news has more credibility than Cornell University.

David K - 3-8-2012 at 11:53 PM

I don't care what Fox or MSNBC or any network says... common sense, logic, and more freedom for all Americans is the basis for my opinions.

Emotions, fantasy, and more power to the federal government are what seem to motivate liberal opinions... just saying.

Why do you want us to move closer to what the Soviet Union was like with these failed ideas???

DianaT - 3-9-2012 at 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
I don't care what Fox or MSNBC or any network says... common sense, logic, and more freedom for all Americans is the basis for my opinions.

Emotions, fantasy, and more power to the federal government are what seem to motivate liberal opinions... just saying.

Why do you want us to move closer to what the Soviet Union was like with these failed ideas???

Ah yes---more freedom for all Americans---the freedom to pollute. As Michele Bachmann likes to say, the EPA is a job killer! Ah yes, the Cayahoga River had to be beautiful when it was on fire.

And Yes, the oil spill on the Yellowstone was emotion and fantasy.

But I just can't figure out what failed ideas that have been expressed here would lead us toward the long gone Soviet Union? I do believe that is a classic example of "Begging the Question" in standard logic.

BTW---liberals believe in a strong work ethic and strong unions to promote fairness and the middle class ---including the idea that those with health issues should be accommodated in the workplace. That is something to which you might want to give some serious personal thought.

[Edited on 3-9-2012 by DianaT]

woody with a view - 3-9-2012 at 07:00 AM

i just don't understand why an "all of the above" energy policy has done less to keep the price of gas,oil, heating oil down. they say we are importing less foreign oil (thereby implying that prices should come down) as we are in the midst of a slowly evolving recession.

the energy secretary has said we should be paying european prices!?!? does he want to permanently kill off this country?

the administration is paying wind farm operators to reign in production because the infrastructure to distribute it is not up to par. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/07/wind-power-compan...

ethanol uses more resources to produce it and gives less btu's than a comparable gallon of gasoline.

solyndra was given 1/2 billion dollars of our money when they couldn't compete.

there needs to be a hard look at subsidizing all of the above industries, oil included. if we are going to help out oil companies, they should be required to flood the American market with ALL of the oil they produce in America to keep the price low in America before they are allowed to sell on the open market/oversees.

without oil the human race would still be living in log cabins, riding horses and growing most of their own food. for some that is ideal, but it's hard to sustain 300 million people with a community garden.

[Edited on 3-9-2012 by woody with a view]

Cypress - 3-9-2012 at 07:02 AM

Liberals grab the credit for all the positive things and conservatives get blamed for the negatives, disasters, etc. Yea, those "occupiers" are the cream of the liberal crop. On the other hand you have the conservative "tea party"... :yes:

watizname - 3-9-2012 at 09:09 AM

Hey goat, You conserve it, and I'll use your share too. OK? Thats what's going to happen between the US and the rest of the world. Do you really think China is going to follow our conservation methods, when they get cranking full speed ahead? They're already manuvering for the Canadian oil that we Won't get because of NOT building a pipeline that could be built around the Ogalala. :coolup:

SFandH - 3-9-2012 at 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by watizname
They're already manuvering for the Canadian oil that we Won't get because of NOT building a pipeline that could be built around the Ogalala. :coolup:

From what I've read it sounds like we already have the Canadian oil, we are their only customer. The Keystone XL pipeline, which I believe will be built, will extend the pipeline from the American midwest to the Gulf coast where it can be easily sold to other countries. The US is in the catbird's seat now.

As far as "drill baby drill" I think that is the exact wrong thing to do. The oil the US has in the ground now is a capital asset that will appreciate dramatically as sources in other parts of the world run dry and/or become more expensive to extract.

I'm all for keeping it in the ground and using up the middle eastern oil as fast as we can. That will ensure American prosperity for the rest of the century and force the Saudis and Iranians to go back to selling date figs, incense, carpets, and camel dung sooner.

Just some thoughts.

mtgoat666 - 3-9-2012 at 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH

Quote:

Originally posted by watizname
They're already manuvering for the Canadian oil that we Won't get because of NOT building a pipeline that could be built around the Ogalala. :coolup:

the USA relies on fossil fuel to succeed -- the fossil fuel business model is unsustainable. someday the oil will run out, you should start planning now for that eventuality. at present, only the liberals are seeking a solution to reliance on finite supply of fossil fuel. the GOP policy is "drill, baby, drill,... and when it's gone we will figure it out then"

all great civilizations eventually fall. the USA will be no different. with GOP setting energy policy, i see fall sooner than later

The Original Topic, El Volcan... but it is still there!

David K - 3-9-2012 at 11:03 AM

A half mile upstream from where the road crosses Arroyo el Volcan (misnamed 'Zamora' on topo maps) is the actual 'EL VOLCAN' a rare cold water geyser that is said to erupt once a month for several minutes:

BajaCat on top

Here is looking down from the top of the cliff on the east side of the arroyo. El Volcan is in the arroyo, along the west cliff.

The next two are video clips of the bubbling water on top of the dome... click on the image to play the video (with sound):

Again, 'El Volcan' is located 1/2 mile south/ upstream of the road crossing... which is 4 miles from El Marmol or 13 miles from Hwy. 1 (between Kms. 148 & 149).

La Olvidada sign near the Onyx schoolhouse of El Marmol:

La Olvidada shown as La Olividada (an extra i)

[Edited on 3-9-2012 by David K]

mtgoat666 - 3-9-2012 at 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch
If we were not spending hundreds of millions of dollars a day to subsidize oil in the middle east with soldiers and weaponry we could probably afford to pay at the pump oil's true cost.

re oil war spending abroad, some people would rather drive gas hogs than fund their local schools...
of course dumb people probably don't want a world with smarter children :lol:

DURRELLIIIROBERT

captkw - 3-9-2012 at 11:53 AM

HOLA,ummmm TMI Too much info,,,now ,I have a headache !! K&T :lol:

elbeau - 3-10-2012 at 09:27 AM

Wilderone: You are AWESOME!!!!!!!!!

You have no idea what it meant to me to see your Rancho Elbeau sign. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!!!!!!! That was SOOO cool.

Regarding the new photos of the area:

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRAAAAARRRAAGGGGGHARRRRAAAAGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Please!!!!NO!!!!!!!NO!!!!!!!NO!!!!!!!!!!....OH PLEASE NO!!!!!!!!!!

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRAAAAARRRAAGGGGGHARRRRAAAAGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok....I'm taking a deep breath now....gathering oxygen....

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRAAAAARRRAAGGGGGHARRRRAAAAGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With how much effort I spent reading and studying about that site from a distance last year, it is predictably heartbreaking for me to see what they're doing in the arroyo, and there's a lot of things that they are messing with in the spot they're doing that work.

There may not be a lost mission there, but there are small cave shelters with ancient rock art right where they are digging. There have been several artifacts found by nomads right there...and somewhere around one of the pools is a set of stairs carved into the rocks going down to the water that is presumably very old.

Now, one thing I learned quickly when I started reading up on archaeology in Baja is that archaeological preservation is not always the #1 priority of the various people involved in making decisions about land use...but there is one consideration that should make it on the radar that nobody is considering:

One thing we learned from the trips that were made to the arroyo last year is that there are significant amounts of underground water flowing just beneath the sands of the arroyo. This water is exposed in many places and at those places there is ample evidence that local fauna use it as a primary water source. We also know from modern and historic accounts that the area is, and always has been, a refuge for endangered Peninsular Big Horn Sheep.

Now, I don't have any geological evidence showing where the source of the water is that is flowing under the sands beneath El Volcan, but I think that the first obvious assumption that should be made is that the water originates at the pools surrounding El Volcan...the same pools they are sucking water out of for the mining operation.

Now, please look at the photo of the pool they are sucking water out of:

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone

It's easy to see in the photo that they have significantly lowered the water level of at least this lower pool, if not the whole El Volcan feature (including the cold-water geyser).

What effect is this having on the water that the local wildlife count on being under the sands of the arroyo?

Geologists tell us that the water seepage we see now at El Volcan has been going on for millions of years and is why the Onyx mine of El Marmol exists at all. That same process of onyx formation, which requires a very rare set of geological conditions, continues to take place at El Volcan. What effect does lowering the water table and redirecting the new water into a mining operation have on the onyx formation process. Onyx formation is a process of forming crystaline structures on top of other crystaline structures. If the seepage of water stops for long enough for other sediments to even lightly cover the onyx layers, will onyx formation continue later on when the seepage starts again? I really don't know.

...but like I said, my biggest concern is because I believe they have cut off the biggest water source for an endangered species. That's messed up.

And before someone points out the obvious...yes, I know that Peninsular Big Horn are still hunted in Baja, but whether or not we have to appeal to the government's environmental side or to their interests in commercial hunting, I would REALLY like someone who does oversight of mining operations to take a look and see what effect that operation is having on the water in the arroyo...any nomads know who I can call? You know from experience that I'm crazy enough to take this on and push them for some results :rolleyes:

woody with a view - 3-10-2012 at 09:33 AM

the sheep will move on or they will perish. it seems sad when you are looking through the computer screen, but they are tough critters.

and the world spins.....

baitcast - 3-10-2012 at 10:32 AM

I guess I could give up some of this stuff but what the hell!
bama calls oil a "fuel of the past" this is a partial list of 144 out of 6000 items made from oil!!!!!!!!!!........... partial list of products made from Petroleum (144 of 6000 items)

One 42-gallon barrel of oil creates 19.4 gallons of gasoline. The rest (over half) is used to make things like:
Solvents
Diesel fuel
Motor Oil
Bearing Grease

Ink
Floor Wax
Ballpoint Pens
Football Cleats

Upholstery
Sweaters
Boats
Insecticides

Bicycle Tires
Sports Car Bodies
Nail Polish
Fishing lures

Dresses
Tires
Golf Bags
Perfumes

Cassettes
Dishwasher parts
Tool Boxes
Shoe Polish

Motorcycle Helmet
Caulking
Petroleum Jelly
Transparent Tape

CD Player
Faucet Washers
Antiseptics
Clothesline

Curtains
Food Preservatives
Basketballs
Soap

Vitamin Capsules
Antihistamines
Purses
Shoes

Dashboards
Cortisone
Deodorant
Footballs

Putty
Dyes
Panty Hose
Refrigerant

Percolators
Life Jackets
Rubbing Alcohol
Linings

Skis
TV Cabinets
Shag Rugs
Electrician's Tape

Tool Racks
Car Battery Cases
Epoxy
Paint

Mops
Slacks
Insect Repellent
Oil Filters

Umbrellas
Yarn
Fertilizers
Hair Coloring

Roofing
Toilet Seats
Fishing Rods
Lipstick

Denture Adhesive
Linoleum
Ice Cube Trays
Synthetic Rubber

Speakers
Plastic Wood
Electric Blankets
Glycerin

Tennis Rackets
Rubber Cement
Fishing Boots
Dice

Nylon Rope
Candles
Trash Bags
House Paint

Water Pipes
Hand Lotion
Roller Skates
Surf Boards

Shampoo
Wheels
Paint Rollers
Shower Curtains

Guitar Strings
Luggage
Aspirin
Safety Glasses

Antifreeze
Football Helmets
Awnings
Eyeglasses

Clothes
Toothbrushes
Ice Chests
Footballs

Combs
CD's & DVD's
Paint Brushes
Detergents

Vaporizers
Balloons
Sun Glasses
Tents

Heart Valves
Crayons
Parachutes
Telephones

Enamel
Pillows
Dishes
Cameras

Anesthetics
Artificial Turf
Artificial limbs
Bandages

Dentures
Model Cars
Folding Doors
Hair Curlers

Cold cream
Movie film
Soft Contact lenses
Drinking Cups

Fan Belts
Car Enamel
Shaving Cream
Ammonia

Refrigerators
Golf Balls
Toothpaste
Gasoline

Americans consume petroleum products at a rate of three-and-a-half gallons of oil and more than
250 cubic feet of natural gas per day each! But, as shown here petroleum is not just used

Ateo - 3-10-2012 at 10:57 AM

We are drilling more domestically under Obama then during Bush and that hasn't done jack chit to bring down oil prices..........just sayin'.

woody with a view - 3-10-2012 at 11:02 AM

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/energy/backtracking-ob...

1 year ago today. when he took over the big chair gas was 1.80/gallon. the last guy left a mess for sure, but WTF is going on?