BajaNomad - Bilingualism is GOOD for us!

Bilingualism is GOOD for us!

vgabndo - 3-25-2012 at 09:18 PM

I'm all for postponing degenerative mental disorder....

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/opinion/sunday/the-benefit...

DENNIS - 3-25-2012 at 09:46 PM

If all effort put into bilingualism was put into a more efficient unilingualism, I think the speaker would be more rich for his/her efforts.
The language itself would benefit as well rather than suffering for atrophy as it seems to be doing today.

bent-rim - 3-25-2012 at 10:39 PM

I've always admired people who spoke more than one language. I can never seem to put more than 4 to 5 words together of a foreign language. I have friends in Europe that can speak multiple languages fluently and effortlessly. And their grammar is spot on in English.

motoged - 3-26-2012 at 12:02 AM

To have another language is to possess a second soul...Charlemagne

Bajaboy - 3-26-2012 at 06:23 AM

Our kids will be entering school soon with dual immersion from kindergarten through eighth grade. It's a great and very sought after program.

Iflyfish - 3-26-2012 at 08:13 AM

Kids are capable of learning multiple languages at the same time, I think that the figure I read is about five. They tend to be slower with language production but when they produce....look out!!

We are born with some inate capacity to understand language structure and can hang many languages on that structure, placement of nouns, verbs, articles etc. but loose the capacity for production of certain sounds after a certain age (5??), there may be linguists on this board with the specifics. For instance Asian languages like Thai are monosylobic/ polyphonic, that is one phonym is given different accent and it has an entirely different meaning. Pho is the ubiquitous peasant food of Viet Nam. How you pronounce that "o" is important to what the word means. If said one way, with the "o" UP, it means the soup, if said in another way it means a specific female body part, I know this by having a teenage girl waitress blanch and tell me I can't say that, when I tried again for the umteenth time to order the soup in Vietnamese. I still can't trill a decent R in Spanish and doubt I will ever master it. The best I can do is make a sound that I am sure comes accross as though I am halking a luggie. We simply lose the capacity to formulate required sounds as we age. This of course speaks to the importance of multiple language education in early childhood, particulary with the monosylobic/polyphonic languages of the now not so Far East.

vandenberg - 3-26-2012 at 08:39 AM

I'm Dutch born and didn't leave the Netherlands till I was 25. Am well educated in Holland and could converse in German fairly well. Dutch and German languages are fairly similar, although folks cannot understand each other unless taught.
For some reason I always had trouble with Roman languages, almost like a mental block. Studied French for 6 years and still can hardly ask where the bathroom is. Have the identical problem with Spanish. I have a brother in law who lives in Canada. He and my sister have a place in Dominica and vist there for maybe 4 weeks a year. He carries on phone conversations in Spanish with people he knows there. And he ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer. :biggrin:

( he doesn't know about this forum. :biggrin:

:biggrin

Never had any problems with English. Makes you wonder. :?:

[Edited on 3-26-2012 by vandenberg]

sancho - 3-26-2012 at 10:31 AM

I've gleened a certain low level working Spanish
travelling Mex, mostly by bus. I think the only way
one can get to reach any fluent point is to live SOB.
Heard the other day a fish oil pill is good for folks
of a certain age, I kinda remember when I was
young

David K - 3-26-2012 at 10:48 AM

Since the public school are passing kids who don't know the importance of the American constitution, what President Lincoln did, how to add fractions, or can spell in English... what make anyone think adding dual language education will make them better?

Spanish was taught in Jr. high, and was offered in high school for 4 years (4 levels) back in the 70's to those of us who were interested in it. Sadly, the public school system has become something far different today... social re-engineering young minds into believing in government control and how bad America is and explorers like Christopher Colunbus were... it is sickening.

Until they can teach the kids the basics (which they aren't very well), best not to make things harder on the teachers or the students with biligualism.

Bajaboy - 3-26-2012 at 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Since the public school are passing kids who don't know the importance of the American constitution, what President Lincoln did, how to add fractions, or can spell in English... what make anyone think adding dual language education will make them better?

Spanish was taught in Jr. high, and was offered in high school for 4 years (4 levels) back in the 70's to those of us who were interested in it. Sadly, the public school system has become something far different today... social re-engineering young minds into believing in government control and how bad America is and explorers like Christopher Colunbus were... it is sickening.

Until they can teach the kids the basics (which they aren't very well), best not to make things harder on the teachers or the students with biligualism.

Study after study shows that kids who are multi-lingual score much better on tests and are more likely to attend college. And by the way, Columbus did not discover the United States....

Increasing class sizes does though dramatically affect teacher effectiveness. :?:

David K - 3-26-2012 at 10:56 AM

I didn't say he did... I called him an explorer (he was also a map maker)...

If it makes kids learn the basics, then great. As it is now, (in some places) the kids can't even find where they live on a world map.

DENNIS - 3-26-2012 at 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
Study after study shows that kids who are multi-lingual score much better on tests and are more likely to attend college.

I've been trying every way I can imagine to see how this would be valid and I come up with nothing unless the specific cultures in question are the subject.
I mean....ten times ten is a hundred in all languages....I think.

Bajaboy - 3-26-2012 at 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
Study after study shows that kids who are multi-lingual score much better on tests and are more likely to attend college.

Benefits of Bilingualism (http://www.tcsd.org/education/components/scrapbook/default.p...)

Higher academic achievement on standardized tests (Robinson, 1992; Cooper, 1987; Armstrong & Rogers 1997; etc)

Increased ability in English (Marcos, K., 1998; Dumas, L., 1999)

Beneficial to the development of reading abilities (D'Angiulli, et al., 2001; Diaz, 1982)

Increased general intelligence and IQ scores (Samuels & Friffore, 1979; Peal & Lambert, 1962)

Improved ability to hypothesize in science (Kessler & Quinn, 1980)

Higher SAT and ACT scores (Robinson, 1992; Cooper, 1987; Eddy, 1981; Olsen & Brown, 1992; etc.)

Improved performance at the post-secondary levels (Wiley, 1985)

Improved cognitive abilities (Curtain, 1990; Genesee & Cloud, 1998; Bamford & Mizokawa, 1991; Barik & Swain, 1976; etc.)

Enhanced memory skills (Kormi-Nouri, et al. 2003)

Increased problem solving ability (Stephens & Esquivel, 1997)

Improved verbal and spatial abilities (Diaz, 1982)

Increased cultural awareness and cross-cultural competencies

Expanded career opportunities

These benefits and more can be explored at the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages website, specifically:

http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4524

DENNIS - 3-26-2012 at 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
These benefits and more can be explored at the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages website, specifically:

In that case, I'll question their objectivity. Nothing supports robust funding quite like robust success.
Not saying I disagree, Zac. Just wondering why anyone would have better cognitive skills as a result of speaking and understanding more than one language...unless, of course, the questions used to determine the benefits of bilinguality are asked in both languages.
Are they?

DENNIS - 3-26-2012 at 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
times ten is a hundred in all languages....I think.

I don't know how far you've gotten into Spanish, but have you not noticed that it's changed the way you think?

In problem solving situations where there are multiple ways to possibly multiple solutions, I can see how the experience with another language would increase effectiveness.

I'm into it to the point that I feel qualified to ask who engages in self-talk in more than one language at a time?
Does it wash that a question asked in English which stumps the subject become more clear when asked in Spanish?

Give me one example that isn't culture specific.

Bajaboy - 3-26-2012 at 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
These benefits and more can be explored at the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages website, specifically:

Dennis, here is an oversimplified example...imagine exposing a child to only one syllable words versus a child who is exposed to unlimited words...who will more likely succeed? Do you agree that children who read are more likely to succeed than those that don't? Seems pretty obvious to me.

DENNIS - 3-26-2012 at 12:55 PM

Isn't it a result of culture amalgamation that has resulted in Spanglish? I believe the phenomenon is as much a quest for efficiency as a by-product of sloppy cultural interchange.

woody with a view - 3-26-2012 at 01:07 PM

two points:

when i was in a catholic school k-6th we had 30ish students to a classroom. i still learned to read better than my OB Elementary going buddies. i've gone 1/2 way thru college but after that, success is determined by the individual. i feel good about what i have/haven't accomplished.

the first phrase i learned in Spanglish was, "como estas frijoles? = how you been!"

DENNIS - 3-26-2012 at 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
Dennis, here is an oversimplified example...imagine exposing a child to only one syllable words versus a child who is exposed to unlimited words...who will more likely succeed?

Well....I doubt you would try to measure the IQ of a child by giving him/her a bunch of pegs with no holes to stick them into, so I think I can deal with something more advanced than "oversimplified."

Quote:

Do you agree that children who read are more likely to succeed than those that don't?

Depends on what you mean by "succeed"........I suppose. Everybody can't have a PhD. They're relative evaluations. It's just like, "Everybody can't be rich. In fact no one can be "rich" if there are no "poor."

Straying from the point.
Zac....I'm going to assume you have no foreign language skills....only for the sake of conversation.
You're a school teacher. Would you be at a higher level in your career had you been bilingual while learning your skills?
If yes....why?

Bajaboy - 3-26-2012 at 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Do you agree that children who read are more likely to succeed than those that don't?

I am not equating career success to language acquisition. I am merely relating to cognitive development. Would I be a better teacher if I were multilingual? No question about it.

Iflyfish - 3-26-2012 at 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
These benefits and more can be explored at the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages website, specifically:

It's simple neurology. More neuronetworks means more capacity to process data, more interconnections between areas of the brain. I will attempt a computer analogy. The more RAM you have the more data you can process at the same time. I think I got that right.

There are many forms of intelligence. There have been at least nine identified. Language facility is one form of intelligence and it is enhanced by increased vocabulary and by acquisition of multiple languages. It's more than the words that are learned when acquiring another language. Capiche!?

Much of our experience is processed using the left temperal lobes where the language centers exist, we have an internal dialogue about our perceptions that interact with our base emotions and preperceptions to help us understand the world and our sensory experience. The more connections we have the greater our capacity to understand our enviornment. That's the neurology of it.

Some of us are blessed with larger language areas to play with, some of us use smaller areas to greater capacity and we have a split brain with language processing areas on both hemispheres. If I say A,B,C,D etc. you can pettty much count on the fact that I am using my left temporal lobe if I sing a,b,c,d etc. you can pretty much count on that coming from my right temporal lobe. If I hit you you can count on the blow having come from my sensory motor strip. Some of us have larger and more developed sensory motor strips, I try not to hang out with or drink with those guys.

Very interesting thread.

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 3-26-2012 at 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
Some of us are blessed with larger language areas to play with, some of us use smaller areas to greater capacity

Yeah.....well........uhh......never mind. :lol:

BajaGringo - 3-26-2012 at 04:00 PM

Far from a scientific study but I can share with you that my kids are all bilingual and that simple fact has opened doors / provided wonderful opportunities for them that would not have been there if they weren't.

Looking back now I wish they had learned Chinese along the way as well...

Iflyfish - 3-26-2012 at 04:25 PM

Ya, it ain't the size of the box it's what you do with it!

Lencho, no! I am afraid of losing synapses; I'm saving mine for tequila.

One of the predictors of reading proficiency is the quality of time parents spend listening to their children read and helping them with reading skills.

http://www.national-coalition-literacy.org/advocacy/ParentIn...

In my view much of the critique of public education misses the elephant in the room. The family is the PRIMARY socialization resource for children and parental engagement in learning activities is essential to their child’s success.

Since the Viet Nam War it has required two working parents to support a family and this has led to significant stressors on the family unit, increased divorce, more single parent families and a slide in real income and free time to engage with children in the sorts of activities that support academic achievement.

We now live in a time where the TV is watched during dinner time and most families do not sit down to discuss the events of the day, what people are learning etc.

Adults are becoming more and more preoccupied with just making it each month and that is survival mode, not self actualization mode.

At the same time we have done a poor job of integrating technology into education and the schools of the future will have the students relating to their computer and the world of information that is out there and they will meet in groups to discuss what they are learning and engage in problem solving with their teacher. This will free the teacher to really teach each student at their own level and then the teacher can guide the students as they learn to work in cooperative groups to learn the very skills they will need to work in the increasingly technical work environments. In my view narrow minded people who do not see the value of art, critical thinking and problem solving, and less concrete activities have stupidly focused our education on the “three R’s” and teaching to the “No Child Left Behind” tests rather than on the development of creativity and group problem solving.

Innovation in education will not come in America; it will come from Latin America and other countries with intact families and educational systems that know how to integrate technology into education. We are fast losing that race as we now have a generation of children who have been learned that what is important is rote learning in order to pass the tests so that the classroom, the teacher, the principal and superintendant look good by passing the “benchmarks” set in the context of Politics and fundamentalist thinking. Our chickens come home to roost.

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 3-26-2012 at 04:30 PM

How could it be measured, this enhanced cognition, for a person with only one language, and the same person with more than one.....because if it can't be measured under those controlled circumstances, I proffer my conclusion, based on the same element of supposition and guesswork that supports the hypothesis that there is a difference, that, in known fact, there isn't.
Actually, I have a strong hunch that the lone value of being able to converse in more than one language is being aggrandized to give those fortunate individuals a power that is as nebulous as religion.

Soooo.....it's time to deal a hand of irrefutable evidence....the measurable difference.

I'll go get a box of beer and wait.

.

[Edited on 3-27-2012 by DENNIS]

vgabndo - 3-26-2012 at 04:40 PM

Rick, wouldn't these same systems be the ones which produce the long lasting effects of "Sunday school"? A child which is taught throughout its formative years, often under threat of punishment, that a certain set of conditions is true, comes into great conflict when, with education, they learn that their parents beliefs are at odds with the last 150 years of science.

I would venture that there might be a great deal of confusion, AND perhaps a limited ability to LEARN these critical thinking lessons which were denied them as a child. Any basis for such a judgement?

I'm thinking that simply not learning a second language is likely less damaging than the organized efforts of authority figures to force the iron age theory of the origin of species on children who are far too young to make a reasoned decision. I think this might prejudice a child against science.

To refer back to DK's contribution, I would submit that after the influence of Martin Luther our national religion has recognized the danger of an educated, enlightened populace. There is a clear mistrust of the educated, in some circles, as elitists. Children in our cultures are often taught the result of centuries of science in their schools, and taught by a priest on the weekend that it is all pernicious nonsense. With the churches at odds with science and education, isn't it natural that we would see a decline in our children's performances?

What part of the Constitution do you think isn't in the curriculum David?

[Edited on 3-26-2012 by vgabndo]

[Edited on 3-26-2012 by vgabndo]

Bajaboy - 3-26-2012 at 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
How could it be measured, this enhanced cognition, for a person with only one language, and the same person with more than one.....because if it can't be measured under those controlled circumstances, I proffer my conclusion, based on the same element of supposition and guesswork that supports the hypothesis that there is a difference, that, in known fact, there isn't.
Actually, I have a strong hunch that the lone value of being able to converse in more than one language is being aggrandized to give those fortunate individuals a power that is as nebulous as religion.

Soooo.....it's time to deal a hand of irrefutable evidence....the measurable difference.

I'll go get a box of beer and wait.

.

[Edited on 3-27-2012 by DENNIS]

How about reading some of the research
:light:

Or better yet, take a class in childhood psychology.

Marc - 3-26-2012 at 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
I'm Dutch born and didn't leave the Netherlands till I was 25. Am well educated in Holland and could converse in German fairly well. Dutch and German languages are fairly similar, although folks cannot understand each other unless taught.
For some reason I always had trouble with Roman languages, almost like a mental block. Studied French for 6 years and still can hardly ask where the bathroom is. Have the identical problem with Spanish. I have a brother in law who lives in Canada. He and my sister have a place in Dominica and vist there for maybe 4 weeks a year. He carries on phone conversations in Spanish with people he knows there. And he ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer. :biggrin:

( he doesn't know about this forum. :biggrin:

:biggrin

Never had any problems with English. Makes you wonder. :?:

[Edited on 3-26-2012 by vandenberg]

I have many Dutch friends and I am continually amazed at their command of the English language.

Marc - 3-26-2012 at 06:15 PM

Quote:

.

[Edited on 3-27-2012 by DENNIS]

Speak English; speak to the world.

On the other hand; I seem to be able to get by, in most situations, in Spanish.

English was a second language for my parents. They chose to speak only English to us kids at home and only spoke Spanish between themselves. Sad isn't it?

David K - 3-26-2012 at 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc

Quote:

.

[Edited on 3-27-2012 by DENNIS]

That is because they knew to become part of the American experience instead of isolating you from it, they insisted you learn the language of the place you lived, first!

I hope they can make education work better... I made my remarks earlier based on the load of crap that was added to the 'basics' that must be required to pass... One of them was teaching ISLAM to our middle school kids!!?? I thought religion was not in the public school's arena... Yet, the kids had a whole section on Islam, but none on the religion of our founders. You can't even pray in public schools... but you darn well better know how to point to Mecca for the call to prayer.

If the kids can pass the basics, then I am all for teaching Spanish as a second language. Afterall, you have to press 1 for English now-a-days!

DENNIS - 3-26-2012 at 08:04 PM

When I was in school, the popular axiom was, "An optimist learns Russian and a pessimist learns Chinese."
That was about eight wars ago.....maybe more. Lost count.

.

[Edited on 3-27-2012 by DENNIS]

vgabndo - 3-26-2012 at 10:03 PM

David

Do you think the Lemon test was violated?

Lemon test

The Court's decision in this case established the "Lemon test", which details the requirements for legislation concerning religion. It consists of three prongs:

1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;

2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;

3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.

If any of these 3 prongs are violated, the government's action is deemed unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Will your case stand up in court? Probably not in the case of your complaint, but I'd invite you to look at the National Motto and Pledge to the flag through the same lens and tell me how either one of them is not a clear violation of the Establishment Clause. I'm weary of hearing complaints about people's religious rights being taken away.

SFandH - 3-27-2012 at 07:06 AM

From the article referenced in the original post:

Being bilingual, it turns out, makes you smarter. It can have a profound effect on your brain, improving cognitive skills not related to language and even shielding against dementia in old age.

This makes sense to me for the simple reason learning a second language is a complicated task and accomplishing it improves your ability to learn anything. How do you get to Carnegei Hall? Practice, practice, practice.

Learning Spanish has helped me understand English. When translating between the two languages the Latin root of many words in both languages becomes apparent. I think that improves my comprehension of what I'm reading, in either language.

[Edited on 3-27-2012 by SFandH]

The Gull - 3-27-2012 at 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
Study after study shows that kids who are multi-lingual score much better on tests and are more likely to attend college.

...and still cannot market their Master's Degree in Transsexual Hispanic Psychiatry Studies in today's employment scene.

woody with a view - 3-27-2012 at 07:14 AM

damn, Gull. don't be such a stranger!

DENNIS - 3-27-2012 at 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH
the simple reason learning a second language is a complicated task

That's true, but only past a certain age. Kids absorb languages only as an unconscious communication process. They don't realize it's a foreign language when they hear and interact with it.

Which brings up another interesting [to me anyway] question. At what point in a child's development does the mind cease to function as a sponge and begin to seperate that which inherently belongs from outside stimuli
I mean....at some point in a persons life, the process of learning a language shifts from a means to communicate to a tedious job. At what point does the process morph from automatic to manual?
Does language have a utilitarian level where everything over and above becomes superfluous to basic communication?

We "grown-ups" are constantly being compared to children when it comes to language learning skills...."Hey...you can learn Spanish. My children play with Pepe and Maria down the street and they talk in Spanish all the time. If a child can do it, why can't you?"

I think that guilt trip is misplaced.

SFandH - 3-27-2012 at 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
at some point in a persons life, the process of learning a language shifts from a means to communicate to a tedious job. At what point does the process morph from automatic to manual?

Perhaps it's like shooting pool, if you think about it, analyse it, it becomes hard to do.

DENNIS - 3-27-2012 at 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH
Perhaps it's like shooting pool, if you think about it, analyse it, it becomes hard to do.

Could be. If only we could go to the Pool Hall with the clear mind of a child.

Jibberish...

EnsenadaDr - 3-27-2012 at 08:54 AM

I took Spanish in grammar school and high school. I lived on Miami Beach with Cubans from age 3 to 5, and spoke some Spanish, though at home we spoke English. (I am not Cuban or Mexican, or Hispanic for that matter). I always spoke a few words of Spanish and could carry on a light conversation. When I decided to go to medical school, where the books, the lectures and the tests were in total Spanish, I was in my late 30's. I was completely immersed for 6 years. And now I am fluent, but with a moderate American accent. My daughter started school in Mexico at age 6, and is now 12 years old. She speaks perfect Spanish with no accent. So, I don't believe you are ever too old for anything, if you want to do it.. and yes I think learning a language that way certainly helps the thought processes and cleans out alot of the cobwebs..anytime you need to use your brain, I think it helps the thought process.

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH
the simple reason learning a second language is a complicated task

[Edited on 3-27-2012 by EnsenadaDr]

Surprised at your answer...

EnsenadaDr - 3-27-2012 at 08:58 AM

Studies have shown that problem solving and creative ability solving tasks improve, as I can attest to since I have to constantly beat my brain in when I am trying to use Spanish with the past or future tense, and figure how to say things to people so they understand me.

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
Study after study shows that kids who are multi-lingual score much better on tests and are more likely to attend college.

From someone who is NOT an natural at foreign languages....

EnsenadaDr - 3-27-2012 at 10:28 AM

You have to live it, read it, breathe it, and talk it before you become fluent...trust me...and even now I am still learning..

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Actually, I have a strong hunch that the lone value of being able to converse in more than one language is being aggrandized...

The process may be more important than the product.

I took 6 years of German in junior high and high school (I kid you not). Though I was technically competent, never used it in the real world, couldn't carry on a conversation now if you paid me. But I'm completely convinced that subjecting myself to that process altered the way my mind works, in a majorly positive way.

No, there's no control group on our pragmatic experience, but it's hard-- for me anyway-- to hang around monolingual and multilingual individuals without coming some conclusions about the positive effect of breaking the monolingual cage.

DENNIS - 3-27-2012 at 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
And what the heck does it mean when employment requirements stipulate things like "85% English"? :?:

That means your employer had best agree with 85% of what you say, and that you keep the other 15% to yourself. :biggrin:

vgabndo - 3-27-2012 at 12:22 PM

I like to think of myself as "conversant" in Spanish, and have decided that I will NEVER be fluent and refuse to beat myself up about it.

Part of the fun for me is when my Spanglish fails and the smiles and friendship part begins when I start drawing pictures in the dust on my truck! When we get down to sound effects, the connection is made, and the result WILL be communication between humans where language is the only barrier.

It brings me great joy when I can do this the other way around when a Spanish speaking person needs help in my local super market parking lot. I seek them out to assist! and to practice, practice, practice. :lol:

Bajatripper - 3-27-2012 at 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Sadly, the public school system has become something far different today... social re-engineering young minds into believing in government control and how bad America is and explorers like Christopher Colunbus were... it is sickening.

Don't know how to break this to you, David, but you don't need to go through our school system to learn how bad the US government has behaved in the past and continues to do so in the present. Just pick up a good history book and start reading for yourself, fit the facts together and see what best explains so many events in history. Every empire goes through the same process of decay.

Contrary to popular belief, "America" has never done anything bad. It has been its politicians that have behaved badly. People of your ilk don't want to read such stuff in the quest for blissed ignorance. I suppose that's your right, David, but please, quit blaming the school system for finally beginning to address some of that past. If you were more educated, you'd know that.

The only "social engineering" I see is brought forth from your side of the political spectrum...you know, all that crap about "intelligent design," trying to discredit evolution as nothing more than just another theory, the "hoax" of global warming, etc. etc. Republican power holders want to keep the public ignorant since that is what serves their interests best, hence all of the wedge issues your side is so infamous for. Taking care of the environment, for example, cuts into the bottom line profits. Much better to convince the ignorant majority that there's nothing to worry about as corporations happily go about business-as-usual and destroy our human habitat in the name of profit. Ignorance allows people like you to vote against your best interests and--best of all--to be proud of it.

VIVA LA IGNORANCIA!!!!!

[Edited on 3-27-2012 by Bajatripper]

Fluent...

EnsenadaDr - 3-27-2012 at 12:37 PM

For all practical purposes, I would think it means that a person has mastered the language well enough to do their job or communicate effectively with their coworkers and customers.

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
You have to live it, read it, breathe it, and talk it before you become fluent...

Agree. Which brings up a question: What is "fluent"?

And what the heck does it mean when employment requirements stipulate things like "85% English"? :?:

Bajatripper - 3-27-2012 at 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Actually, I have a strong hunch that the lone value of being able to converse in more than one language is being aggrandized to give those fortunate individuals a power that is as nebulous as religion.

[Edited on 3-27-2012 by DENNIS]

Usually, your arguments leave little to add, Dennis, but not on this thread.
I find it interesting that you'd argue that bilingualism isn't the advantage it is for those who are.

Bajatripper - 3-27-2012 at 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull
Benefits of Bilingualism (http://www.tcsd.org/education/components/scrapbook/default.p...)

Higher academic achievement on standardized tests (Robinson, 1992; Cooper, 1987; Armstrong & Rogers 1997; etc)

Increased ability in English (Marcos, K., 1998; Dumas, L., 1999)

Beneficial to the development of reading abilities (D'Angiulli, et al., 2001; Diaz, 1982)

Increased general intelligence and IQ scores (Samuels & Friffore, 1979; Peal & Lambert, 1962)

Improved ability to hypothesize in science (Kessler & Quinn, 1980)

Higher SAT and ACT scores (Robinson, 1992; Cooper, 1987; Eddy, 1981; Olsen & Brown, 1992; etc.)

Improved performance at the post-secondary levels (Wiley, 1985)

Improved cognitive abilities (Curtain, 1990; Genesee & Cloud, 1998; Bamford & Mizokawa, 1991; Barik & Swain, 1976; etc.)

Enhanced memory skills (Kormi-Nouri, et al. 2003)

Increased problem solving ability (Stephens & Esquivel, 1997)

Improved verbal and spatial abilities (Diaz, 1982)

Increased cultural awareness and cross-cultural competencies

Expanded career opportunities

These benefits and more can be explored at the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages website, specifically:

http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4524

Nice summation of some of the research on the subject, Gull.

Now, I'd like to see someone compile a list of resources that support the benefits of staying monolingual.

Iflyfish - 3-27-2012 at 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper

Quote:

Nice summation of some of the research on the subject, Gull.

Now, I'd like to see someone compile a list of resources that support the benefits of staying monolingual.

"If God wanted us to be bilingual s/he would have made us bilingual" How's that for an argument? or "Isn't American good enough for you?" or "God destroyed the Tower of Babble." or "The Constitution and our Bible were written in English and there is nothing else you need to know" Learning languages like French weakens your moral character" or "if you learn Middle Eastern Languages you are supporting terrorism and Muslimism" or "My daddy never learned another language, why should I?" or "We should be teaching the three R's and leave the rest to the family" or "What right does the government have teaching our children heathen languages?" "What, are you trying to act smart or something?" "That research is Left Wing propaganda and I don't see it in the Bible, so it is just a theory" "That research sounds like the sort of soft headed thinking you find in Berkeley" "The pope and priests are the only ones who should speak other languages". Did I miss any?

Iflyfish

Bajatripper - 3-27-2012 at 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

And what the heck does it mean when employment requirements stipulate things like "85% English"? :?:

When an employer gives a "fluency percentage" requirement, it is my understanding that it means that the applicants have to score at a certain level on standardized tests.

Bajatripper - 3-27-2012 at 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish

"If God wanted us to be bilingual s/he would have made us bilingual" How's that for an argument? or "Isn't American good enough for you?" or "God destroyed the Tower of Babble." or "The Constitution and our Bible were written in English and there is nothing else you need to know" Learning languages like French weakens your moral character" or "if you learn Middle Eastern Languages you are supporting terrorism and Muslimism" or "My daddy never learned another language, why should I?" or "We should be teaching the three R's and leave the rest to the family" or "What right does the government have teaching our children heathen languages?" "What, are you trying to act smart or something?" "That research is Left Wing propaganda and I don't see it in the Bible, so it is just a theory" "That research sounds like the sort of soft headed thinking you find in Berkeley" "The pope and priests are the only ones who should speak other languages". Did I miss any?

Iflyfish

I think you about covered them all. Thanks.

DENNIS - 3-27-2012 at 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper
Usually, your arguments leave little to add, Dennis, but not on this thread.
I find it interesting that you'd argue that bilingualism isn't the advantage it is for those who are.

Never said anything like that, Steve. My arguement is and has been that being multilingual wont raise cognative abilities as some here want to think it will, and if it will, there's probably no way to test it.
Of course it is advantageous for communication. Who would argue that, but if a person is able to read and comprehend an item in two languages, assuming an accurate interpretation is being offered, he's no better off for that ability. To say that he would be better informed or more introspective would be to say the two items read don't say the same thing. After all, interpretation by the reader has been removed from the equation.

They [flag waving Mexicans] like to say, "The Labrynth of Solitude" by Paz defies interpretation. Do you believe that? Are there clues to understanding that flow only in the blood?

.........
"Einstein lived for many years in the United States, and spoke both German and English, but had trouble with spelling in English."
-------

What happened here?

Cypress - 3-27-2012 at 02:06 PM

I know more than a few folks that can't speak good English, they're fourth generation US citizens.

mtgoat666 - 3-27-2012 at 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
My arguement is and has been that being multilingual wont raise cognative abilities as some here want to think it will

any exercising of the mind raises cognitive abilities. the owners manual for the human mind is 2 simple lines: "use it or lose it" and "do not bathe brain cells in drugs or toxic chemicals."

capiche??

[Edited on 3-27-2012 by mtgoat666]

vgabndo - 3-27-2012 at 02:39 PM

In my part of the country, out-in-the-open far right wing Christian revolutionary militia groups have made a hook-up with 7 local Sheriffs. One of their favorite images is of the President peeing on a map of the USA. He's also depicted as the anti-christ.

I don't think that teaching the new scientific paradigm in the schools or recognizing a woman's reproductive rights is any kind of excuse for having to live in this kind of environment in my America. I don't care how much anyone disagrees with what we the people let happen to our government. Our government let 1200 new militias take root since OK City. A lot of this is since the GOP let the Assault Weapons Ban lapse under Tom Delay. In my part of the country is seems the conservatives are really peeved at the Democrats for letting them "elect" G W Bush so he could do all those things they hate so much!

I'm not convinced that leftist social-engineering in the schools had anything to do with this, and if it did, how could it possibly justify civil chaos in response?

[Edited on 3-27-2012 by vgabndo]

bufeo - 3-27-2012 at 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish ..."God destroyed the Tower of Babble."

Well, first off, it's the Tower of Babel, from the Hebrew.

Quote:

...[the Constitution] and our Bible were written in English and there is nothing else you need to know"

Your Bible is translated...got that??...translated from Greek and Hebrew ( and a bit of Aramaic) by some scholar who was multilingual.

In any case, I'm not what one would call an unbiased source, since I spent my military service as a translator (Czech), later continued my service in the employ of the No Such Agency as a translator (Czech and French). Then, I went on to teach French at the secondary school level for twenty years.

Plus, I enjoy traveling to Mexico and being able to converse, however elementary, with those who do not have a command of English.

I suspect that those who don't see the advantage of having a second (or third) language in all liklihood never will no matter what research or arguments are put in front of them.

Allen R

[Edited on 3-27-2012 by bufeo]

Pompano - 3-27-2012 at 02:54 PM

Los Angeles' full name is "El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora la Reina de los Angeles de Porciuncula"

shari - 3-27-2012 at 03:01 PM

becoming bilingual has been an interesting journey in discovery for me as one also becomes bi cultural and this affects the WAY you think.

In spanish and french, things are backward...(or maybe it's english that is backward) and I find myself getting tripped up sometimes in english as y brain has to turn around. Sirena & I...unbenounced to us...speak a combo and mix and match english and spanish words without realizing it. My brain automatically reaches for the "best" word and out it comes whether that be english or spanish...we dont even notice we switch back and forth. I find myself thinking Latino in regards to problem solving... meaning thinking outside the box for sure...more creative thinking....kind of looking at things from a different angle, like backwards which provides a new viewpoint.

I am told (I'm also unaware of this) that my voice raises when I speak spanish and I gesture much much more...am more animated...and I have a lower voice and more reserved body language when speaking english...weird eh!

I is interesting to watch Izaak absorb 2 languages at once...for example, although he knows both words, he uses doggie for dog and gato for cat...why? because they sound better? are easier to remember so the brain latches onto that word first?

Sirenita learned to read in english when she was 2 but never studied in english so her writing style is unique...kind of with a latino feeling.

All I know is that it sure is exciting at a later age to feel all those neurons firing up again when learning another language!

DENNIS - 3-27-2012 at 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
the owners manual for the human mind is 2 simple lines: "use it or lose it"

Where did you hear that one? Bingo Night at the Del Webb clubhouse?
If we believe every little caveat we got from granny, you should be blind by now.

woody with a view - 3-27-2012 at 03:05 PM

wrong Dennis! we'd all have hairy palms by now!!!!

:lol:

[Edited on 3-27-2012 by woody with a view]

Iflyfish - 3-27-2012 at 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bufeo

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish ..."God destroyed the Tower of Babble."

Well, first off, it's the Tower of Babel, from the Hebrew.

Quote:

...[the Constitution] and our Bible were written in English and there is nothing else you need to know"

Yup, you are right. Just presenting the arguments in the way I often see and hear them presented. I also think that you are right about how bias and prejudice influence ones capacity for taking in new information. Scripts are generated by making decisions that then are reinforced by only taking in the information that reinforces the decisions made. I think that some of this is hard wired. Well said.

One of the most unfortunate developments in our public dialogue in my view is the redefinition of logic when mixed with theological i.e. evolution is ONLY a theory ergo sum of equal intellectual value as scientific research.

Iflyfish

shari - 3-27-2012 at 03:18 PM

Dennis...I'm way smarter than I used to be now that I speak spanish :lol:

so there amigo...true dat!

kidding aside...my brain seems to analyze problems from wider angles now...see it from different sides so I can come up with a better solution...does that even make sense? It's pretty hard for me to explain.

Oh yeah, the spanglish thing just makes it easier for the respective cultures to understand each other...for example if a mexican is trying to get you to park in the proper place...you will undertand him much better if he says No Parkiar aqui...i think it was born out of convenience for both cultures...not such a bad thing.

Barry A. - 3-27-2012 at 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper

Quote:

Nice summation of some of the research on the subject, Gull.

Now, I'd like to see someone compile a list of resources that support the benefits of staying monolingual.

Fish-----------WHERE did you come up with all those quotes??? I have NEVER heard ANYONE say such silly things! I am serious here. I have lots of Christian folks in my family but none have ever said (or even thought) anything like THAT.

I am suspicious!!!!

Personally, I totally suport multi-lingual studies and always have, but I still think that "English" should be be the official language of the United States, for practical reasons.

Barry

DENNIS - 3-27-2012 at 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
kidding aside...my brain seems to analyze problems from wider angles now...see it from different sides so I can come up with a better solution...does that even make sense? It's pretty hard for me to explain.

I don't know, Shari. That may be a benefit of time as well. Our view of it all is constantly changing.

"'Like sands through the hourglass so are the Days of our Lives."

I just made that up because I was caught in a poetic moment. :biggrin:

Iflyfish - 3-27-2012 at 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
becoming bilingual has been an interesting journey in discovery for me as one also becomes bi cultural and this affects the WAY you think.

In spanish and french, things are backward...(or maybe it's english that is backward) and I find myself getting tripped up sometimes in english as y brain has to turn around. Sirena & I...unbenounced to us...speak a combo and mix and match english and spanish words without realizing it. My brain automatically reaches for the "best" word and out it comes whether that be english or spanish...we dont even notice we switch back and forth. I find myself thinking Latino in regards to problem solving... meaning thinking outside the box for sure...more creative thinking....kind of looking at things from a different angle, like backwards which provides a new viewpoint.

I am told (I'm also unaware of this) that my voice raises when I speak spanish and I gesture much much more...am more animated...and I have a lower voice and more reserved body language when speaking english...weird eh!

I is interesting to watch Izaak absorb 2 languages at once...for example, although he knows both words, he uses doggie for dog and gato for cat...why? because they sound better? are easier to remember so the brain latches onto that word first?

Sirenita learned to read in english when she was 2 but never studied in english so her writing style is unique...kind of with a latino feeling.

All I know is that it sure is exciting at a later age to feel all those neurons firing up again when learning another language!

I love this post! I think it demonstrates how facile the mind becomes as it masters a different language and concurrently another culture.

I recently returned from Panama where I read an Ethnographic/Linguistic Study of the native Kuna Indians of Panama/Colombia. In that study they spent nearly a chapter on a gesture/tip of the head/pursing of the lips/raising of the hands, palm up and the various meanings it communicated. It communicated an entire gestalt,a world view and a depth of meaning that went way beyond what a single word could communicate. It took paragraphs to encapsulate what was being communicated including the context of the communication. Try saying F..k in as many different ways as you can, with as many inflections as you can, in as many variations of volume that you can and you can start to appreciate the complexity that even one four letter word can communicate. Then add gestures to the mix. Try saying it like the Italians say it, or a Mexican would say it, or as a Fenchman might say it. The study of other languages/cultures increases the neurological potential for expanded perception and therefore ways to approach problem solving. Our language often LIMITS the potential of our perceptions. The brain is after all a regulatory organ and expanding it creates many more options about how to understand our perceptions, other people, social situations, cultural differences etc.

Puts me in mind of Hamlet's shot at super rational Horatio as he interrupts Hamlet's interaction with the ghost of Hamlet's father "And therefore as a stranger give it (the ghost) welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

I had a dear friend who lived in the old Ceylon, now Sri Lanka, and their servants saw ghosts, literally saw ghosts and communicated with them on a daily basis, my friend, with her limited perception, never saw them.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 3-27-2012 at 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper

Quote:

Nice summation of some of the research on the subject, Gull.

Now, I'd like to see someone compile a list of resources that support the benefits of staying monolingual.

Ya, I know Barry, I know. My tongue was firmly imbedded in my cheek. I once had the following exchange with a man in Texas, where I was attending an RV Rally. "What time is it he asks" to which I responded "It's 3 oclock" His response, and I quote literally "Oh, We live in God's Country and don't have daylight savings time" I was walking with a friend when I heard this and started to slap my thigh and laugh out loud. My friend said "Shhhhh, his is serious!" I was dumbfounded and she told me that when daylight savings time was initiated in her state it was put to a referendum and the main argument agains it was "If god had wanted us to have daylight savings time he would have given it to us". I am not making this up.

Iflyfish

Cisco - 3-27-2012 at 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
In my part of the country, out-in-the-open far right wing Christian revolutionary militia groups have made a hook-up with 7 local Sheriffs. One of their favorite images is of the President peeing on a map of the USA. He's also depicted as the anti-christ.

I don't think that teaching the new scientific paradigm in the schools or recognizing a woman's reproductive rights is any kind of excuse for having to live in this kind of environment in my America. I don't care how much anyone disagrees with what we the people let happen to our government. Our government let 1200 new militias take root since OK City. A lot of this is since the GOP let the Assault Weapons Ban lapse under Tom Delay. In my part of the country is seems the conservatives are really peeved at the Democrats for letting them "elect" G W Bush so he could do all those things they hate so much!

I'm not convinced that leftist social-engineering in the schools had anything to do with this, and if it did, how could it possibly justify civil chaos in response?

[Edited on 3-27-2012 by vgabndo]

The extremist Arizona legislature enacted a law that just recently caused the banning of nearly 100 books from Tucson public schools. The list includes prominent Latino authors, plus Shakespeare, Thoreau, and James Baldwin. They even banned Zorro!

The real goal was to totally dismantle the Tucson school district's Mexican American Studies program. Mission accomplished. The program is gone. Not a class survived.

The enabling act, Arizona House Bill 2281, contains some lofty language. It requires that school districts teach students to "value each other as individuals." They cannot be instructed to "hate other races" or "overthrow the United States government." Promoting "resentment toward a race or class of people" or "ethnic solidarity" is forbidden. A bit overdone but it has some potential, right?

The law was just a smokescreen to cover ethnically based attacks on Latinos students in Tucson schools. Neither the banned books nor the dismantled Mexican American Studies program violated any of the provisions listed yet the law banned the books and ended the program.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Books-Banned-in-Arizona--by...

Iflyfish - 3-27-2012 at 03:43 PM

By the way my response to the guy who told me he lived in "God's Country" where they didn't have daylight saving was, and unfortunately it was automatic on my part, and I regret it, was "Lets see, what does that say about us who live in Oregon. We have Day Light Savings in Oregon so I guess I wouldn't be living in God's Country then eh?!" I nearly invited him to an orgy of Wicken revelry out here on the Left Coast. We do have excellent wine and cheese.

Iflyfish

Barry A. - 3-27-2012 at 03:50 PM

Fish said. "
I once had the following exchange with a man in Texas, where I was attending an RV Rally. "What time is it he asks" to which I responded "It's 3 oclock" His response, and I quote literally "Oh, We live in God's Country and don't have daylight savings time" I was walking with a friend when I heard this and started to slap my thigh and laugh out loud. My friend said "Shhhhh, his is serious!" I was dumbfounded and she told me that when daylight savings time was initiated in her state it was put to a referendum and the main argument agains it was "If god had wanted us to have daylight savings time he would have given it to us". I am not making this up.

Iflyfish "

Fish---------He HAD to be joking!!!! Please tell me that he was joking!!!!????? I don't know people like that--------(unless he was joking). Somebody was pulling your leg. :lol:

Barry

Pompano - 3-27-2012 at 04:10 PM

If you don't know anything about foreign languages, you know nothing about your own.

Iflyfish - 3-27-2012 at 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Fish said. "
I once had the following exchange with a man in Texas, where I was attending an RV Rally. "What time is it he asks" to which I responded "It's 3 oclock" His response, and I quote literally "Oh, We live in God's Country and don't have daylight savings time" I was walking with a friend when I heard this and started to slap my thigh and laugh out loud. My friend said "Shhhhh, his is serious!" I was dumbfounded and she told me that when daylight savings time was initiated in her state it was put to a referendum and the main argument agains it was "If god had wanted us to have daylight savings time he would have given it to us". I am not making this up.

Iflyfish "

Fish---------He HAD to be joking!!!! Please tell me that he was joking!!!!????? I don't know people like that--------(unless he was joking). Somebody was pulling your leg. :lol:

Barry

I think he meant it.

For an interesting analysis of the interplay between religious belief and time I offer the following:

http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/jackson/mill/1R.html

Iflyfish

vgabndo - 3-27-2012 at 06:20 PM

By Associated Press, Published: March 24

NEW YORK — A Florida man who climbs mountains to call attention to Alzheimer’s disease has won a national memory competition held in New York City.

It’s the second year in a row that 27-year-old Nelson Dellis of Miami has won the USA Memory Championship. He also broke a record for memorizing 330 random numbers in five minutes, besting the previous record of 248 numbers in five minutes. He set that record last year.

About 50 people competed in Saturday’s challenge of mental skill.

Among the challenges, competitors had to recall 99 names and faces, a 50-line unpublished poem and 200 random words.

I listened to the NPR interview. I suspect he is bilingual!!! :lol:

bufeo - 3-27-2012 at 06:29 PM

Iflyfish, I apologize if my reply earlier seemed to be a bit too abrupt. I failed to recognize that you were chewing on your tongue.

On the other hand, I can relate to your anecdote about the Daylight Savings Time. I was born a WASP in Savannah, GA, became a WASp by the time I was 14 (give or take a year or two) and, finally, just a WAS, over which I had no control, in my early twenties.

I used to joke that I had to learn English as a second language owing to my place of birth and my early education, but I must give credit to early school years in west Texas when Spanish was required in the third grade (1944). That, alone, left a lasting impression on me about the benefits of being multi-lingual.

On another note, I'm involved with assisting veterans find jobs (and skills?) after separation from active duty. I'm continually amazed when young men and women sit down for an interview, and they have the bare essentials of English, their birth language and that of their grandparents too.

Allen R

Owner's manual...

EnsenadaDr - 3-27-2012 at 07:12 PM

Dennis you should know about bilingualism...talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.... :spingrin:

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
the owners manual for the human mind is 2 simple lines: "use it or lose it"

Where did you hear that one? Bingo Night at the Del Webb clubhouse?
If we believe every little caveat we got from granny, you should be blind by now.

vgabndo - 3-27-2012 at 07:22 PM

Allen: I was immediately reminded of the 1968 Ron Cobb cartoon. and son-of-a-gun I could still put my hand on it!

The mole has CIA on his hat.

I'm reminded that I had done my entire enlistment in the Marines before I was legally allowed to vote on where I might be sent to die.

R Cobb.jpg - 37kB

Iflyfish - 3-27-2012 at 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bufeo
Iflyfish, I apologize if my reply earlier seemed to be a bit too abrupt. I failed to recognize that you were chewing on your tongue.

On the other hand, I can relate to your anecdote about the Daylight Savings Time. I was born a WASP in Savannah, GA, became a WASp by the time I was 14 (give or take a year or two) and, finally, just a WAS, over which I had no control, in my early twenties.

I used to joke that I had to learn English as a second language owing to my place of birth and my early education, but I must give credit to early school years in west Texas when Spanish was required in the third grade (1944). That, alone, left a lasting impression on me about the benefits of being multi-lingual.

On another note, I'm involved with assisting veterans find jobs (and skills?) after separation from active duty. I'm continually amazed when young men and women sit down for an interview, and they have the bare essentials of English, their birth language and that of their grandparents too.

Allen R

No apology necessary! It is very difficult to communicate sarcasm or humor for that matter using this medium.

My family spoke only German in North Dakota until the rise of the N-zis in Germany and they then stopped speaking it at all, leaving my poor father mute for an entire year. I only learned a few words, like hurry up stupid etc. and I am sorry about that. I admire those who are bilingual, trilingual etc. My life is so much richer having learned the bastardized Spanish that I now speak, enough to get beer and in trouble with my humor. Like Shari I sometimes GROCK the Mexican culture and perspective and I charish those moments.

First picking fruit with Braceros in California let me really experience that there are different ways to live and see the world and Latin in Prep School helped me to develop some logic and structural thinking that I did not have. The exposure to the Mexican workers, their sense of joy, pleasure in life and their ability to play have been great models for me in how to enjoy life and on my better days not take myself so seriously. I am glad they first taught me how to swear "hey kid, go say this to that guy" etc. That also introduced me to the joy of learning Spanish.

I admire the work that you are doing with our Vets, hard to reintegrate in a time of high unemployment especially with poor language skills, poor education and the trauma of war etc.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 3-27-2012 at 07:43 PM

vgabndo

Great poster!! 'bout says it all.

Iflyfish

shari - 3-27-2012 at 09:35 PM

lencho...it's pitch...I go higher in spanish...i wonder if it is because many mexicanos have higher voices for some reason...diet? sugar? so I mimick the pitch? and I also gesture way more in spanish...kinda schizophrenic like??? it kind of is like having 2 personalities.

Iflyfish - 3-27-2012 at 09:52 PM

I speak louder when speaking Spanish also. I have been told this many times. In fact I have heard Mexicans complain that Gringos are loud and have seen novice Spanish speakers talk louder also. I also gesture way more speaking Spanish.

Shari, you have way more than 2! and for this we are all grateful!

Iflyfish

Bajatripper - 3-27-2012 at 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Never said anything like that, Steve. My arguement is and has been that being multilingual wont raise cognative abilities as some here want to think it will, and if it will, there's probably no way to test it.
Of course it is advantageous for communication. Who would argue that, but if a person is able to read and comprehend an item in two languages, assuming an accurate interpretation is being offered, he's no better off for that ability. To say that he would be better informed or more introspective would be to say the two items read don't say the same thing. After all, interpretation by the reader has been removed from the equation.

They [flag waving Mexicans] like to say, "The Labrynth of Solitude" by Paz defies interpretation. Do you believe that? Are there clues to understanding that flow only in the blood?

.........
"Einstein lived for many years in the United States, and spoke both German and English, but had trouble with spelling in English."
-------

What happened here?

I agree with your argument that reading the same thing in two different languages doesn't make that person better or more informed. But being able to read things written in one language but not in the other DOES make that person better-informed than the monolingual person who only has access to information published in his/her native language. Something I've come across on more than one ocassion are translations that weren't accurate. One that comes to mind was a translated source that talked about the snow level experienced at San Javier Mission here in southern Baja. I knew that couldn't be the case so I looked it up in the original, where there was no talk about snowfall, but rather, of frost levels.

Can't say that I've read the source you mention, but my opinion would be that what is being described above is more of a "cultural thing" rather than a "language thing." A common language does not make a common culture. There are inherent differences among people from the different Spanish-speaking nations south of our border. We might apply that thought to cultural differences between us and England.

By the way--spelling, in my opinion, has little to do with intelligence or multilingualism. I'm certain that there's a "spelling gene" that some of us have, and others don't. For the record, I spell poorly in two languages. In Einstein's case, since he didn't begin living in the US until he was in his 50s, I'd guess that his brain was a bit set in its way to totally absorb the correct spelling of English. But that would just be a guess on my part.

Bajatripper - 3-28-2012 at 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
They [flag waving Mexicans] like to say, "The Labrynth of Solitude" by Paz defies interpretation. Do you believe that? Are there clues to understanding that flow only in the blood?

Dennis, I just came across something in a book written by historian Ralph Roeder concerning English and French cultural differences and how it affected their foreign policy decisions:

"English initiative was not, and could not be, neutral, since national interests were settled by national characteristics. In England, where the national character was predominantly male, the Mexican question was settled with virile simplicity; but across the Channel it was complicated by an infusion of feminine influence, and in that phase of its development women and women's motives and women's men played an important part in fostering the brood of the nightmare."

These lines were written in reference to how each nation (England and France) dealt with President Juarez's refusal to pay Mexico's foreign creditors money owed from previous administrations (Mexico simply didn't have any money to pay and still be able to survive as a government).

It just seemed to fit the spirit of the conversation.

watizname - 3-29-2012 at 09:52 AM

We can't even fund the schools now to teach just the 3 R's {thats Readin, Riten, and Rithmetic to all you young-uns} to a proficient level. Where are we going to get the money to fund these new programs. Right now, Arts/music?--gone. Sports?-----gone. Auto shop, wood shop trade programs?-------gone. Where does the funding come from, huh?????? :?:

bajalinda - 3-31-2012 at 10:25 AM

Interesting thread, you all. Going way back to the earlier post about being able to reproduce sounds (or not) after the age of 5 years old, here is a little factoid that, for some reason, has stuck with me since college days. When you compare the number of sounds that different languages have, French is way at the bottom of the list with a very small number (if not the smallest number of sounds), whereas one of the Slavic languages - could well have been Czech if memory serves - is way at the top of the list with many more sounds. (And yes, there really are people who count and study this stuff.)

So, to make a really broad generalization, it follows that the French would have a more difficult time (after childhood) mastering pronunciation of other languages since they have a smaller repertoire of sounds in their native language to begin with. Interesting thought - just thought I'd throw that in there and, no darn it , I can't remember where English falls on the continuum of number of sounds.

DENNIS - 3-31-2012 at 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalinda
no darn it , I can't remember where English falls on the continuum of number of sounds.

Phoneme info for English:

http://www.antimoon.com/forum/2005/6356.htm

vgabndo - 3-31-2012 at 10:57 AM

Linda, thanks for joining-in. I think you make good points, and I found a lot of information to think about on that score. From my minor in fine arts speech, I could only remember dipthongs as sophisticated language parts, but that revealed this:

http://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/1575/why-does...

vgabndo - 3-31-2012 at 11:02 AM

Dennis...great source! So, it is just 40! Great! Except that there are two No. 17s on the list which makes 39 sounds, and the mental masturbation continues! :lol:

At my local supermarket there is a recorded voice trying to sell things over the PA system. The speaker talks so slowly as to sound truly ludicrous, and much of his speech is very carefully crafted so that when he says FUR instead of FOR on every occasion, I can only smile at the obvious pretense!

Being mostly self-educated, I've experienced knowing and understanding far more words than I've heard spoken. That has been a negative. My debating skills have been reduced because I hesitate to use the most appropriate word or name when I am unsure of the pronunciation and don't want my argument tainted by the appearance of ignorance. (Assuming my opponent knows how the word is pronounced :lol

That is probably just the shadow shame I'm still carrying for dropping-out of college 44 years ago. And ego. :yes:

[Edited on 3-31-2012 by vgabndo]

bajalinda - 3-31-2012 at 11:22 AM

Thanks for the links!

DENNIS - 3-31-2012 at 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
Dennis...great source! So, it is just 40! Great! Except that there are two No. 17s on the list which makes 39 sounds, and the mental masturbation continues! :lol:

Lots of info on the subject on Google. Other sources say 42 etc. and all state good reasons.
I made a brief search for "Phenomes in the French language and couldn't come up with a simple number, but lots of other stuff. Parisians speak as though their tongue is suspended in oil, so they probably can't count them as a lot of 'em ooze together.
Interestingly enough, Spanish has only around 23, but that number will be growing with the acceptance of Spanglish in the vocabulary.

Incidently.....I've been hanging sheetrock/drywall in a couple of rooms here and learned from a friend the Spanglish term for this is "Shirokiando." Way mo betta than the English.

.

[Edited on 3-31-2012 by DENNIS]

vgabndo - 3-31-2012 at 12:34 PM

"Shirokiando." Way mo betta than the English.

I love it!

I had a friend who's Spanglish for Comidas was Eatos. It didn't serve him very well!

bajalinda - 4-1-2012 at 07:14 AM

Well, I had no idea my post would trigger off such a research project! Thanks for all the info. Shirokiando?! - that's a good one!

So as native English speakers I guess we're fortunate to have a few more sounds in our repertoire - including that ole "th" sound which is not easy for lots of people trying to learn English as a second language.

watizname - 4-1-2012 at 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by watizname
Where does the funding come from, huh?????? :?:

But we do seem to have money to wage wars on the other side of the globe...

I'm all for bring all our people home and spending all those billions on us. That is the US. Schools, infrastructure, new energy sources, etc. I would rather spend it here in the US than fight those wars.