BajaNomad - baja's Sistine Chapel

baja's Sistine Chapel

Skipjack Joe - 4-18-2012 at 03:19 PM

Above and to the left of the cactus you will see a dark overhang. i believe this was a place of worship.

(Please don't post comments until after I've got it all up).

The_approach.jpg - 39kB

Skipjack Joe - 4-18-2012 at 03:26 PM

As you stand at the base and look upwards you see this.

mural.jpg - 48kB

baitcast - 4-18-2012 at 03:33 PM

How far back do these people go Igor?
Rob

Skipjack Joe - 4-18-2012 at 03:38 PM

As you examine more closely you start to understand. These people are seeking something that's can't be reached. A spirituality.

Note how the texture of the rock emphasizes this and brings it forth.

understand.jpg - 42kB

Skipjack Joe - 4-18-2012 at 03:52 PM

Here you have many souls seeking and searching. Note the circular earth background giving you a sense of being uplifted. This is all viewed looking up from below.

searcherching.jpg - 43kB

Skipjack Joe - 4-18-2012 at 04:02 PM

There were also animal images. Appropriately painted below the 'celestial' beings. What is interesting to see is the skill of the artist that used the contours of the cave to form the deer's hindquarters. These were no mere geometric stick artisans but men of considerable skill.

deer.jpg - 46kB

Skipjack Joe - 4-18-2012 at 04:19 PM

It may seem to be a leap of faith to think that this is a place of worship. You need to experience it fully to understand. The overhang sits on a butte that overlooks an immense plain. Under the proper lighting there is overwhelming peace. Somehow I could see worshippers coming from all directions to partake in this. Much as many who still attend church.

This is the last image I have.

As I said before I know nothing about native pinturas. I like to discover things on my own and come up with my own theories.

plain.jpg - 41kB

woody with a view - 4-18-2012 at 04:25 PM

very cool!

Howard - 4-18-2012 at 04:34 PM

Beyond words how great that place must be. Taking nothing away from the phenomenal sprit this place must of given off but I wonder if a little peyote helped them along?

Either way, what a great experience to share.

Cypress - 4-18-2012 at 04:58 PM

Possibly a lookout point. The lookouts had a lot of time on their hands. "Hey, lets do some art stuff to help pass the time." :lol:

ncampion - 4-18-2012 at 05:33 PM

Any interest in sharing the location of this magnificent place so others might visit????

Skipjack Joe - 4-18-2012 at 05:48 PM

None whatsoever.

The place is totally unprotected. It has preserved because it's hard to find. The ranchos know. It would be so easy to deface this wall. I consider myself lucky to have found it.

I'm sorry.

David K - 4-18-2012 at 06:16 PM

Nice find, and you have every right to not publish the location... Just don't blame others who love Baja just as much, for doing such a terrible thing.

The only defacing at petro sites I have seen has been words in Spanish, ie. 'local punks from cities'...

Thank you for sharing the photos, by doing so... you have preserved that site! :yes:

[Edited on 4-19-2012 by David K]

mtgoat666 - 4-18-2012 at 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
None whatsoever.

The place is totally unprotected. It has preserved because it's hard to find. The ranchos know. It would be so easy to deface this wall. I consider myself lucky to have found it.

I'm sorry.

bravo!

for rock art afficionados, it's really easy to fing your own "undiscovered" location. put on your boots and explore, after a while rock art is easy to find, it's all over the place in the desert. it's also most fun when you discover your own location, especially discovering undisturbed sites where the last artist's litter is still on the ground.

David K - 4-18-2012 at 06:28 PM

Along a Baja race course route (east of San Quintin and north of El Arenoso) we discovered a nice petro site that has not been published (as far as I know)... http://vivabaja.com/1105/page5.html As difficult as the road was to get there, and unless you knew where to park and walk, it is easily missed... I don't worry about Nomads with 4WD doing anything more than enjoying this place... I named 'Petroglyph Park'.

rts551 - 4-18-2012 at 06:35 PM

Nice job Igor. and glad you did not post any coordinates..Baja Nomads Forum is not some sort of secret society that protect all of Baja. Come to think of it, some of the "nomads" need to get out and get some exercise anyway. Find their own spots. some are a little rotund.

bufeo - 4-18-2012 at 06:37 PM

Nice photos, S-Joe. And many, many thanks for not posting the location. Good on ya'.

Allen R

Skipjack Joe - 4-18-2012 at 06:47 PM

David,

I have no idea what a nomad will or will not do. A bigger fear is that word will spread to someone who will mar the site. It's not a matter of principle but one of precaution. I don't feel I'm being selfish. I'm sharing it's beauty and the rest is up to you.

Anyway, I would prefer that we talk about the images. Do you see what I saw? Look carefully. It took me a lot of looking before I understood. It's in the pictures but you need to free your mind.

Paula,

Where are you. You asked for this 6 months ago and I finally did it. Please give me your impressions. You are seasoned in this matter.

P.S Don't hurt my feelings by comparing it to Stanley Gardner's tourist attractions.

[Edited on 4-19-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

rts551 - 4-18-2012 at 06:54 PM

why does one hand have five fingers and a thumb?

Skipjack Joe - 4-18-2012 at 07:00 PM

I have no idea except to cojecture that these are super beings. Not mere mortals. They're endowed. Perhaps it's how one will be in the hereafter.

[Edited on 4-19-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

goldhuntress - 4-18-2012 at 07:14 PM

Nice photos! Very cool. Thanks for sharing this special find.

DianaT - 4-18-2012 at 07:15 PM

Igor,
I also love to create my own thoughts when seeing such things. I once had an anthropology professor who liked to tell us that whenever the researchers had not real idea, they would declare something religious---it covered a lot of possibilities.

And DK, there are a few thousand registered members here, and who knows how many more people look at this forum. Precaution as Igor said, I believe is a good thing. A few years back, my son found the water source for the Mission Doloras in BCS and he would never put it out on an open forum. He would, however share it with certain individuals. A friend many years ago took me to some petroglyphs in the Los Padre Wilderness---a place that he and a partner had "discovered" many years before when they worked for the Forest Service in the back country. Their "discovery" was published in the Forest Service magazine, but not with directions. It is just not worth the risk. Your rather racist statement about who defaces these sites is quite revealing about you.

Igor, one thing that always causes me real thought is how similar so many petroglyhs are from so many different places. The image of a person with arms stretched upward is so common----why? And it is a question for which I wonder if there is an answer.

[Edited on 4-19-2012 by DianaT]

Skipjack Joe - 4-18-2012 at 07:37 PM

Diane,

This may sound conceited... I'm a very educated man. I have learned so much and had such a thirst for knowledge. But what I learned in the end is that the most precious knowledge is what I learned on my own. So I'm holding on to that. I find things on my terms and form my own theories. That's immensely satisfying. More than anyone explaining to me what I'm looking at

In fact that's the attraction to photography. Good images are felt, never understood, or analyzed. The viewer will understand your feelings. I seldom shoot images like that cause they require an intensity that's missing. Now I frame it up like a picture and pull the trigger.

DianaT - 4-18-2012 at 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Diane,

This may sound conceited... I'm a very educated man. I have learned so much and had such a thirst for knowledge. But what I learned in the end is that the most precious knowledge is what I learned on my own. So I'm holding on to that. I find things on my terms and form my own theories. That's immensely satisfying. More than anyone explaining to me what I'm looking at

In fact that's the attraction to photography. Good images are felt, never understood, or analyzed. The viewer will understand your feelings. I seldom shoot images like that cause they require an intensity that's missing. Now I frame it up like a picture and pull the trigger.

I really do understand what you are saying about understanding things on your own terms and creating your own theories. And I think that is a very valid thing for many and so many things can be seen and felt differently by different people.

Art, literature, photography, etc. are all about emotion and feelings. But I might disagree with you in that I don't think it is necessary for someone to understand and share your feelings, or the feelings of who ever the artist may be--I see the important element is that there is a feeling or emotion there, no matter how different it might be. I just don't think there can ever be one or even a correct understanding and interpretation of any form of art. What I see as important is that there is an emotion created ---

BTW---the anthropology professor I referred to was a person who destroyed years of research because he had finally discovered a source of water on an island where some of the Seri People in Mexico had lived and he did not want to reveal the place. And for that, I very much respect him.

Skipjack Joe - 4-18-2012 at 08:04 PM

Diane,

I can understand how one can become jaded to see the same figures repeatedly. To me it was new and therefore exciting.

However the interplay between image and canvas is really fascinating. The round swirling rocks give you a sense of elevation and other wordly. The dark shadows and fissures in closeup give sense of danger and forboding.

Was this fortuitous? Likely yes. Yet it's there. And each site must have it's own interplay. So there is little to be bored with. But what do i know.

DianaT - 4-18-2012 at 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Diane,

I can understand how one can become jaded to see the same figures repeatedly. To me it was new and therefore exciting.

However the interplay between image and canvas is really fascinating. The round swirling rocks give you a sense of elevation and other wordly. The dark shadows and fissures in closeup give sense of danger and forboding.

Was this fortuitous? Likely yes. Yet it's there. And each site must have it's own interplay. So there is little to be bored with. But what do i know.

Igor,
Opps, did it sound jaded? I really didn't mean it that way, but what is written does not always translate to the thought behind it.

I see what you are talking about with the interplay between the natural formations and the man created images. And yes, each site does have its own interplay. And yes, that site does bring forth images of the other worldly. Your images are quite powerful as they really show that power.

My curiosity is the similarity in the design of the images in places. Why is there that similarity in places that probably did not have contact with other places. What is the meaning of that? That is one thing about which I wonder. I know that it may sound, well how do I say it, "way far out" but I wonder about the cosmic connections between many of the ancient people. I know that will sound crazy to many.

Skipjack Joe - 4-18-2012 at 09:13 PM

I just assumed that there was connectivity and 'successful' images were being repeated. Like our modern world. Someone shoots a picture of Che Guevara in a beret, it goes well, and is duplicated everywhere you look. It's a success.

Look at the iconography in a Russia Church. The same image of Christ appear in one cathedral after another. I feel that's veery similar. A picture of the afterlife is being repeated,

woody with a view - 4-18-2012 at 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
This may sound conceited... I'm a very educated man. I have learned so much and had such a thirst for knowledge. But what I learned in the end is that the most precious knowledge is what I learned on my own. So I'm holding on to that. I find things on my terms and form my own theories. That's immensely satisfying. More than anyone explaining to me what I'm looking at......

can i use this in my signature? with all props to you, IGOR? that is the most profound statement i have EVER read on this forum.

Mulegena - 4-18-2012 at 11:03 PM

Folks, this is rich, deep dialogue that's been evoked here. Gratitude for the thoughtfulness that this thread has prompted.

What an exciting find, to see the overhanging ledge, receive, hear and then act on the inner-prompt to face the rugged desert and search out the place. The reward of discovery of this beautiful archeological site, what a gift.

Skipjack Joe - 4-18-2012 at 11:42 PM

Thanks for the comments.

As I looked at this mural I was greatly impressed. Yet I wrote nothing. Will they understand? Did I really see something significant? Will they see what I saw. I've put some effort in this thread for you to see and understand

I just receveived a u2u from shari of her very similar reaction to paintings at Agua Verde.

When You first see it it's mostly attractive. But as you look through your viewfinder it all changes. Heads appear out of shadows searching for the above. Change positions. Now in another corner you find groups of arms swirl above you in an ascent that all strain for. It's an image that had to be looked at bit by bit to understand. Otherwise it's just a painting in a beautiful spot.

Yet how did this perfection come to be? Surely the artist didn't search for a cave with the perfect contours for his creation. Nor did the artist create an image that perfectly matched it's interior. Hard to believe. It's likely that these caves are similar and a successful form is repeated with adjustments, Yet the deer were specific to the contours. Shows a great deal of creaivity.

Again this is just me reacting to a single painting. There may be many similar that would totally debunk these reactions. But there is little doubt that this was a place of worship. It was too perfect to be otherwise. A crucible in a harsh land.

[Edited on 4-19-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

Jack Swords - 4-19-2012 at 06:12 AM

Thanks for the posting and sensitive comments. So many of these sites can only be protected by their isolation and this site remains so.

Ken Bondy - 4-19-2012 at 07:08 AM

Igor those photos, and that place, are simply magical! What great beauty. The quality of the art, and the canvas, exceed any cave art I've ever seen. Stunning! From my perspective I don't much care where it is, I can appreciate it from your photos. While I would like to see it first-hand, that is unlikely so your beautiful photography, both in and out of the cave, will do me just fine.

As to what the figures represent, i think you know my thoughts on religion so I can't pretend to find any "spiritual" meaning in them, although i am sure the artists did. All human societies, from primitive to modern days, have invented supernatural gods to explain things in their physical world that they can't explain otherwise. These figures, with outstretched arms extended skyward, probably reflect an attempt to connect with their supernatural inventions. The fact that I find no mystical meaning in the figures does not in any way diminish their beauty and I thank you profusely for posting them.

[Edited on 4-19-2012 by Ken Bondy]

Paula - 4-19-2012 at 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Paula,

Where are you. You asked for this 6 months ago and I finally did it. Please give me your impressions. You are seasoned in this matter.

P.S Don't hurt my feelings by comparing it to Stanley Gardner's tourist attractions.

[Edited on 4-19-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

Ah yes.... I remember you mentioning this cave. I think I can remember watching for the pictures, and it is nice to see them now. I'm wishing I could remember your words that piqued my interest here...
I have seen only caves that I've been led to, and can only imagine finding one on my own, especially one as lovely as this. To begin with, the quality of the rock is different, so soft, and the contours beneath the paintings add much to the finished work. It is unclear where the paint color and texture, the camera, and the eye of the photographer intersect. This is so different than the few caves I've seen, I find myself wishing that I could visit it. The stone box in the image looking out from the cave make me think it is on or close to a ranch, but it could be so many places... and I can see many reasons for keeping the mystery.
The fact that you seem to have just found this on your own is inspiring, and I think I should just go out and look around more often than I do. You give me too much credit for being seasoned, but I thank you for the compliment.

Leo - 4-19-2012 at 11:24 AM

Thanks to all who submitted to this worthy thread. Inspiring and great photography of a difficult but magical subject. I have seen a few caves and realize how difficult good picture taking is in there. Just hope one day to walk into a simmilar experience.

vgabndo - 4-19-2012 at 03:39 PM

Wonderful images, wonderful thread, thank you all.

I think I'm correct in saying that the folks who made those paintings were no less intelligent than are we. They were, by our standards, incredibly ignorant. I can only imagine the uncertainty of life in that environment and the many ways the inventive human mind may have found to explain-away the fear, or to hedge against the probability that misfortune would come again.

I'd like to know more about why *the way* our brains process and compare data seems to *invite* superstition. It seems that as we constantly look for patterns, that when an abnormal pattern is observed producing a good outcome, we try to reproduce the abnormal conditions even after a long return to normalcy demonstrates the abnormality.

Because Homseco who lives two days walk away painted a deer on his shelter roof and chants to it before he goes hunting, and because he is almost ALWAYS successful, the rapid growth in popularity of totem deer among less capable hunters regionally might be understandable. :lol:

Ken Bondy - 4-19-2012 at 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
I'd like to know more about why *the way* our brains process and compare data seems to *invite* superstition. It seems that as we constantly look for patterns, that when an abnormal pattern is observed producing a good outcome, we try to reproduce the abnormal conditions even after a long return to normalcy demonstrates

vgabndo. I just finished an excellent book which addresses that:

J. Anderson Thomson, Jr., MD, "Why We Believe in God(s)"

Great read!

[Edited on 4-19-2012 by Ken Bondy]

Skipjack Joe - 4-19-2012 at 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

vgabndo. I just finished an excellent book which addresses that:

J. Anderson Thomson, Jr., MD, "Why We Believe in God(s)"

Great read!

[Edited on 4-19-2012 by Ken Bondy]

Ken,

I've thought about you in the past. Why try to understand the attraction and not just simply let yourself resspond. I'm playing the devil's advocate because I too am incapable of trusting my feelings over reason.

It's great that you have found the marvels of our natural world as a substitute. But most are not so lucky. Even now I can't believe the substitution is to your satisfaction.

For all evil that organized church has done let's not forget the good. You see it in people's eyes during christmas. Have you stopped giving gifts. Unlikely. Where would we be without stories like a Christmas Carol that clearly tells us judeo/christian good from bad.

There is a peace in a russian church that nothing can compare other than a desert or redwood grove. But what about those that don't venture out. Where will they get it. There are other ways to obtain this: meditation or for me the zen of unbiased observation. Again this is so esoteric as to be useless.

So I see little use in someones idea of why we need god. A better question is what do you offer that's just as good. What is there to fill the void. It sounds like you've found it but in all honesty I have not. But I'm too smart to believe in lies of the church. This may sound morbid (I'm a sick man) but the end will be unpleasant in whatever form it comes. For you and for me.

Taco de Baja - 4-19-2012 at 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
why does one hand have five fingers and a thumb?

Possibly to show them as slightly non-human, as not to give them too much power? Kind of like the "errors" / "mistakes" that are put into some Mandala sand paintings that are sold or have no sacred value.

Also interesting that several have "appendages" sticking out below their arms. Do these possibly symbolize breasts? And thus both men and women are represented in the images?

Very cool images. Thanks for sharing them Skipjack Joe; and also thanks for not sharing the location.

I'll bet they really come alive in the flickering of a fire on a dark moonless night.

Skipjack Joe - 4-19-2012 at 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taco de Baja

I'll bet they really come alive in the flickering of a fire on a dark moonless night.

What a marvelous thought? Yet I found no soot as in my previous finds that had been used as middens. There was one far corner without paintings that suggested a fire had been lit.

Barry A. - 4-19-2012 at 05:32 PM

I thought about these things you discuss a lot back in College. Not much since. Many of us simply don't experience "the void" that you speak of-------I have no idea what that is. (Ignorance is bliss!?!?!?)

Your photos are beautiful, and in themselves create mysteries to ponder, and that is all good. In this case, I support the secrecy of this "place" and applaud you decision to keep it that way. But I love knowing that they exist!!

I too have places like that-----------

Bravo, SkipJack.

Barry

Ken Bondy - 4-19-2012 at 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
It's great that you have found the marvels of our natural world as a substitute. But most are not so lucky. Even now I can't believe the substitution is to your satisfaction.

I am very satisfied with my substitution of the natural world for religion Igor. I have felt that way since I was a teenager, and there are no changes on the horizon! I find the natural world enormously more beautiful and fulfilling than religious superstition. I also think it is magnificent that we have evolved brains that allow us to understand ever more of it. I find the concept of a god who offers not a shred of evidence for his/her existence, but who will barbecue me for eternity if I don't BELIEVE in him/her, profoundly repulsive, and simply too evil to be true.

I have never found any direct relationship between religion and morality. It has been my experience that people do good, moral things in spite of religion, not because of it. A wise old quotation goes, "Good people do good things with and without religion; bad people do bad things with and without religion, but for good people to do bad things, now that takes religion!"

I hope you find what you are looking for old cyberfriend!!

++Ken++

Skipjack Joe - 4-19-2012 at 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
I thought about these things you discuss a lot back in College. Not much since.

But these people thought about it. Or am I totally off base? They didn't put it aside and ignore it.

Who really knows what these images are about. I could be totally wrong. Please offer any other interpretation for consideration. I would welcome that. Perhaps it's time to open the books and see what the experts say. Although I've opened too many books in my lifetime and have little interest here as well.

Barry A. - 4-19-2012 at 06:22 PM

You are "not off base at all", SkipJack, and I am sorry if I created that idea. Again, I applaud your thoughts, and this thread. I was just pointing out that we all are not "into" the "void" thing, and seeking "the word", but certainly the primitives could have been, and probably were------life was really tough and mysterious in those days.

Barry

tripledigitken - 4-19-2012 at 06:23 PM

Wonderful find Igor. I would love to have had the opportunity to shoot the sight as well. Thanks for sharing.

Skipjack Joe - 4-19-2012 at 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

I am very satisfied with my substitution of the natural world for religion Igor. I have felt that way since I was a teenager, and there are no changes on the horizon! I find the natural world enormously more beautiful and fulfilling than religious superstition. I also think it is magnificent that we have evolved brains that allow us to understand ever more of it. I find the concept of a god who offers not a shred of evidence for his/her existence, but who will barbecue me for eternity if I don't BELIEVE in him/her, profoundly repulsive, and simply too evil to be true.

I have never found any direct relationship between religion and morality. It has been my experience that people do good, moral things in spite of religion, not because of it. A wise old quotation goes, "Good people do good things with and without religion; bad people do bad things with and without religion, but for good people to do bad things, now that takes religion!"

I hope you find what you are looking for old cyberfriend!!

++Ken++

OK. I'm going to drop this for now. It will rise again. Mostly because I agree with much and arguing with you is like going against myself. Yet there is a difference which I think has to do with our own constitution.

I have to say that the comments about frying is below you. What St Augustine came up has little to do with spirituality. It's a clumsy attempt to instill fear to do good. Also the comments about morality were sophomoric. Few believe the connection between the church and morality beyond an early age.

No, the question is about spirituality in it's simplest form. I claim there is a natural human yearning for it. We're not like a mayfly that lives a day and it's over.

The people that came to this site were not aberrations. They were like you and me. And an explanation as to why they felt this need would have changed nothing. Understanding can't supplant a need.

[Edited on 4-20-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

rts551 - 4-19-2012 at 07:05 PM

I don't know, Igor, maybe we are like Mayflys, and it is exactly that concept that causes us to search for something more.

Another example. We can not comprehend an endless universe, so we search for an end to it.

Hard for us I know, but what if???

Ken Bondy - 4-19-2012 at 07:21 PM

Igor

OK one last round and I'll quit

. First, I said "barbecue". No mention was made of "frying"'. Seriously do you find anything incorrect with my statement about penalty for disbelief?

More significantly, I strongly but respectfully disagree with your statement "Few believe the connection between the church and morality beyond an early age." I think the reverse is true, most people (albeit incorrectly) believe there is a connection between church and morality. You can't go a day without someone describing, in the media, someone as "christian", with the obvious assumption that "christian" is a good, moral thing. So I think there is a pervasive but wildly incorrect assumption amongst most people that religion implies morality.

If you insist, I quit

I do agree that our species craves some form of spirituality. I think the best place to find it is in the beauty and intricacy of the physical world.

Frank - 4-19-2012 at 07:24 PM

I think what you found out there in the desert Igor, would have to be experienced in person in order to get a feeling for what the Artists motivation could of been. You were standing right where they were, probably during the same type of day and it moved you, like it moved them.

Thanks for sharing the photos.

Family Guy - 4-19-2012 at 07:30 PM

It is impossible to get a true feeling of the art without seeing it in person--it loses the context, perspective, etc.

What strikes me most about the image are the two central characters--the large figure in the foreground who looks to be wearing some type of hat and the rising figure in the background whose head seems to be dissipating in a flame-like shape with odd protrusions at each side of the chest cavity. These two figures seem to be interacting in some way.

The deer at the bottom of the scene seems to create a separation between the human and animal world.

My impression is of a ceremony of sorts. The figure in the hat could be the ceremonial leader and the rising figure seems to be the object of the ceremony.

The rising arms certainly give the impression of the spiritual hallelujah, reaching to celestial spirits.

I am inclined to think this may be a sacrificial altar of sorts....

thanks for sharing.

The figures seem very human

Skipjack Joe - 4-19-2012 at 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
I don't know, Igor, maybe we are like Mayflys, and it is exactly that concept that causes us to search for something more.

Another example. We can not comprehend an endless universe, so we search for an end to it.

Hard for us I know, but what if???

It's hard to feel what another feels. In the hospital I watched a show of the crusader's defense of 'Jerusalem'. After Saladins men broke in the carnage began. Each strike of the sword was displayed by actors and the fossil bones were analyzed. Spears entered torsos. Arrows pierced chests.

Yet as disgusting as it all was I was never able to 'pretend' how it must have felt. They were just entities. Similarly I can't relate to the animal world. Ken and Dennis apparently can.

This post is really off the mark but I will let it stand for now.

Skipjack Joe - 4-19-2012 at 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Igor

OK one last round and I'll quit

I do agree that our species craves some form of spirituality. I think the best place to find it is in the beauty and intricacy of the physical world.

I'm erasing this post because in hindsight it makes me feel uncomfortable.

You've probably read it Ken. I'm sorry.

[Edited on 4-20-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

bacquito - 4-19-2012 at 08:07 PM

Thanks, interesting

vgabndo - 4-19-2012 at 08:07 PM

Just a couple of quick things from previous posts...

Ken thanks for the link to Dr. Thompson. I just watched him do a power point of the book here:

http://richarddawkins.net/videos/641385-j-anderson-thomson-j...

Thomson shares new science I didn't know was here about the Neuropsychology of supernatural beliefs. It had to happen sooner or later.

This work and the emerging studies on the very real differences in the brains of progressives and conservatives promise to make the next couple of decades a real mess.

This one thing really struck me from the video. Thompson asked the audience, " What does a two year old do when it wants your attention?" He demonstrates by putting his arms above his head to be picked-up. "What does a Pentecostalist do in church?" His arms go up. What does an aborigine paint on the ceiling of his desert shelter?

And, Skipjack, with full respect, I judge you'd get an answer to your question about morality without spirituality in this video. The thinking is up to your standards, I think. Which is a concept explored in the video!! :lol:

And SJJ..it is easy for me to forget that you are recovering. I hope you are progressing well!

[Edited on 4-20-2012 by vgabndo]

windgrrl - 4-19-2012 at 09:11 PM

The museum beside the mission in San Ignacio has a replica of a similar cave painting with explanations of some aspects of the glyph content and the life of the people who made them. The folks with the "hats" are indeed thought to be shaman figures, while those with the bumps below their underarms are female figures. Some of the figures are also painted half red and the other half black. It is possible to experience more than a bit of wonder about the people who lived then.

There is sure some interesting reading about indigenous people to be found (apologies if this is a repeat):
http://www.innerexplorations.com/catsimple/guaybook.htm
"The Religion of the Guaycuras

We are lucky to have the detailed picture of the Guaycuras that Baegert left us, but unfortunately his knowledge did not extend to their inner world, and so it is worthwhile to try to breathe some life into the little data we have by looking at their religious beliefs and their major artifacts.

Our primary sources are the works of Baegert and Hostell who, unfortunately, left us very little about the actual beliefs of the Guaycura. We may recall Baegert’s remarks about how humans arose from the mating of Emma, the devil, and a bird which had been a woman, and how stones and animals had once been human. Fortunately we have a report of Venegas on the beliefs of the Monquí, and we have some grounds to believe that their more southerly cousins shared the same sort of religious world view.8

Gumongo, the chief spirit, lived in the north from whence he sent sicknesses, but he also sent Guyiagui who seeded the earth with pitahayas, and opened up esteros, that is, bodies of water behind the beaches, along the Gulf coast as far south as a big rock in Puerto Escondido where he dwelled for a time. Other spirits brought him pitahayas and fish, and he continued this work of bringing pitahayas and forming esteros.

Guyiagui also made garments for the shamans who were called dicuinoches from the hair they offered to him, and he left them a painted tablet to use during their fiestas and ceremonies. These shamans say that the sun and moon and the bright stars are men and women who fall into the sea in the west and must swim to the east to emerge again. The other stars were lit by Guyiagui and they are extinguished in the water of the sea, but they reignite the next day in the east. If we add to the hair capes and tablas, or tablets, of this passage wands, pipes and dart throwers, we are faced with a list of fascinating objects to examine."
H.W. Crosby

[Edited on 4-20-2012 by windgrrl]

shari - 4-19-2012 at 09:22 PM

Just a note here Igor...my U2U referred to my first experience with cave paintings which are near Sta.Marta by Bonfil. I am still so overwhelmed with what I experienced, I find it difficult to articulate my feelings.

My favorite figure was a person flying out of a hole in the wall...it was a rather small figure compared to the huge ones and some people may miss it...it is along a path between caves...but this may answer my questions about how those enormous paintings were painted...I just dont buy the scaffolding idea...so this little guy obviously was levitating...so maybe that's how they did it!!! There certainly are many many images that relate to galactic beings...osea....non earthlings.

I was not prepared for being nearly knocked over physically and spiritually by these figures...it was definately one of the most significant experiences I had ever had and is deeply etched in my soul.

I certainly like the idea of the lookout theory as many caves have that feeling.

Ancient Shmanism in Baja:trances, visons and spirit helpers

windgrrl - 4-19-2012 at 09:29 PM

...additional discussion of potential meaning of some of the cave paintings in context of spiritual practices by their creators:
http://www.innerexplorations.com/catsimple/exped10.htm

Paula - 4-19-2012 at 09:46 PM

Igor, a while back you mentioned the peace you feel in Russian churches. I sense tranquility in Mexican Catholic churches. But any sense of religion is absent in me. I do not believe in (a) God. I do have a certain unarticulated spirituality. It is not an element of my day to day existence. When I signed on for facebook a few years back there was a place to state religious views, and I said "mountains, sea, sky". So why the thing for these churches? Cathedral or small remote village church, I have entered them with my head bowed, not out of humility, but with a sense of not belonging, of being an affront to the faithful within those walls, for not deserving to be there. I didn't make eye contact, and tiptoed so as not to disturb those who were praying. But recently while traveling in Oaxaca I paid more attention to the people. Some seem to be sad, crying, and asking for somethig-- help, advice, solace. Often two or three are sitting together, conversing and laughing softly among themselves. And sometimes eyes will meet mine, and people say buenas tardes, como estas? with a smile. And I've come to see that the church is just a place to be part of humanity. Yes, many practice the rituals of genuflecting and prayer, and Christ is their conduit to the great collectivity. What they seek-- and find-- is really not so mysterious at all, just the human spirit at its best.

And now to the paintings... I mentioned religion in one of the "famous" caves, and the guides said no, those people had no religion, and everyone wants to find religion in the paintings, but it is not there. The same guide said that really no one has any idea what the intentions of the artists were. Granted, this was one guide, and who knows how his knowledge or opinion came to be. But one must realize what a primitive society it was that existed in Baja before the Catholics and the soldiers came. Monte Alban and other famous sites on the mainland date from centuries before Christ. And clearly, from what remains and from what has been taken away and now is in museums, there is evidence of a society with complex practices in fields of agriculture, art, probably cuisine, astronomy, warfare, and more. And at the same time in history, over here in Baja folks were living in caves, and subsisting on small rodents, fish, and cactus fruit. The paintings are beautiful, but can we-- coming from our rich store of knowledge and curiosity--, take ourselves to that basic place from where we can begin to understand their intent? Were the artists motivated to think abstractly? You say that they were people just like us, but are we people just like they were? There are a few people still on the ranches who say they can remember seeing the last of the descendants of the cave people-- seen running through the desert, living in the old way. When my children were small they always drew figures, often family portraits, with arms outstretched-- free, joyful, and welcoming of all the good that might come their way....

redmesa - 4-19-2012 at 10:10 PM

Paula, Yes! What you say so rings true with me.

Paula - 4-19-2012 at 10:18 PM

redmesa

I have been humbled by Windgrll's links-- posted as I wrote my feelings on spirituality and the preconquisto history of Baja Sur. it appears that much can be learned by research and study. Could my assumptions have been too hasty? Should I have looked more deeply into the issues at hand before speaking my mind?

Thank you for the vote of confidence, as I am feeling a bit rattled at this moment!

Skipjack Joe - 4-19-2012 at 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
Just a couple of quick things from previous posts...

Ken thanks for the link to Dr. Thompson. I just watched him do a power point of the book here:

http://richarddawkins.net/videos/641385-j-anderson-thomson-j...

Thomson shares new science I didn't know was here about the Neuropsychology of supernatural beliefs. It had to happen sooner or later.

This work and the emerging studies on the very real differences in the brains of progressives and conservatives promise to make the next couple of decades a real mess.

This one thing really struck me from the video. Thompson asked the audience, " What does a two year old do when it wants your attention?" He demonstrates by putting his arms above his head to be picked-up. "What does a Pentecostalist do in church?" His arms go up. What does an aborigine paint on the ceiling of his desert shelter?

And, Skipjack, with full respect, I judge you'd get an answer to your question about morality without spirituality in this video. The thinking is up to your standards, I think. Which is a concept explored in the video!! :lol:

And SJJ..it is easy for me to forget that you are recovering. I hope you are progressing well!

[Edited on 4-20-2012 by vgabndo]

I'm sorry, I came away with little from this. His point is that Religion came about from social interaction. Yes, this supplants morality. But when someone writes about the need to invent God I'm not interested in the nuts and bolts of social structure. When I read God I read a spirit. A need to fulfill some inner need that is felt but not understood.

Maybe I missed it. A lot of verbiage on evolution of no relevance. Brain analysis that I did not understand and always mistrusted. Brain chemistry is in it's infancy. How would you feel if you were offered serotonin, what appears to be the diferrence between Ken and my brain, and told. Take this and your spiritual longings will be gone? I would be horrified. An entire dimension would be gone.

Paula - 4-19-2012 at 10:24 PM

Skijack

I hope you find my last post here worthy of a reply, as I have certainly gone out on a limb-- speaking purely on observation of sights and pictures, and the spoken words of people who live close to the subject and not inquiring into the scholarly wisdom that is available.

Skipjack Joe - 4-19-2012 at 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
redmesa

I have been humbled by Windgrll's links-- posted as I wrote my feelings on spirituality and the preconquisto history of Baja Sur. it appears that much can be learned by research and study. Could my assumptions have been too hasty? Should I have looked more deeply into the issues at hand before speaking my mind?

Thank you for the vote of confidence, as I am feeling a bit rattled at this moment!

Paula,

Windgirls link clearly identifies the man in the hat as a shaman. Are not shaman's a conduit to the underworld? Perhaps this is not a place of worship. Yet something spiritual is going on. Unless I understand correctly the role of a shaman. He's like a priest and where there is a priest there is a church? What am I missing here?

Regarding your experience in church it's remarkably similar to mine. At first there is a state of nervouness as I feel like such a hypocrite. Then a state of awareness as I watch the worshippers. But eventually I reach a state of bliss as I here the chanting and the choir above and a sense of peace comes over me until I can't bear the smell of incense any longer. I think people worship for different reasons. I can't see into their souls.

Regarding religion among the cave dwellers. I never thought there was. All I said was that some sort of spiritual longing seems to be occuring. This seems to be a safe assumption. This is universal and will remain so for centuries to come. Early African man had it and all else since. It's like denying the tribalism between the serbs and the croats. Once you do me wrong and my people will pay you back. Nothings changed. All has been sublimated. We compete in the olypics. the world cup, the stock market. We lie to gain allies. We can't agree on Iran. We can't agree on Syria. North Korea has us by the nose. If we can't control a world that requires cooperation how are we to lose a similar ancient longing for spirituality. Do you know that religion in Russia was stronger in the soviet world than the rest of europe. People were willing to endure punishment and still worship. Every babushka had her crucifix and taught her grandchildren in the ways of Christianity. How do you explain such a thing. Fools they were not. It's the universal pull.

[Edited on 4-20-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

Paula - 4-19-2012 at 11:08 PM

Igor, I think I'm in over my head here. The link identifies the man in a hat as a shaman, and this seems a logical conclusion. Based on what we know, or think we know today. I just think that the paintings are a beautiful amazing mystery, but they answer no questions. The meaning of the paintings is buried, and we have little chance of ever knowing the why of them. So they are an open book, and a person can find what they need to find in them. And maybe this is where faith comes int play. You see what you see, that is what is there for you, and if you have faith you do not need affirmation. Ultimately, we all must find the way that works for us. It may be different than anyone else's truth, but it is ours alone.

Skipjack Joe - 4-19-2012 at 11:27 PM

I have added a bit more Paula. Please reread.

Ken Bondy - 4-20-2012 at 07:14 AM

Igor have you read any Dawkins? He presents a lot of thoughtful answers to questions about religion.

Dawkins thinks that religion is hardwired into us. Participation in organized religion starts, in all societies through all times, with a parent telling a child that he/she is a christian, muslim, jew, etc. largely as a function of where the child was born. Religion is, Dawkins hypothesizes, an unintended by-product of evolution. Natural selection favored children who did what their parents told them to do (“…stay away from that cliff…don’t put your hand in that fire…don’t jump in that water…etc.”) The kids who paid attention to their parents tended to survive and procreate more often than those who didn’t. But along with the wise admonitions, early kids almost always got some bad advice (“…we must worship (zeus, apollo, sun woman, moon man, god, allah, etc.) so the crops will be good and the sun will continue to rise…”). The children favored by natural selection thus got the religious garbage along with the stuff that was actually valuable.

This may explain the persistence of religion in human society (the Russian experience you describe) and the undeniable craving many have for some form of spirituality.

[Edited on 4-20-2012 by Ken Bondy]

Skipjack Joe - 4-20-2012 at 08:25 AM

Ken,

Upon your recommendation I did read Dawkins. I asked the bookstore attedant what he thought. "Yes. It's the atheist manifesto" Howeveer, I never did not read what you write which makes a fair amount of sense. I guess I was so turned off by the proofs of the unlikeliness of God's existence which seemed so elementary that I stopped reading. It somehow seemed insulting. My mistake.

Religion plays no role in my house. Yet strangely Alex is strangely drawn to it. I know you disagree but I see no harm in this. The future will bring so much overwhelming evidence that he's wrong. That likely he will change. Yet as I wrote to you a year ago that to believe in both is a gift. A gift I lack. So I feel comfortable in the current path. What's wrong with holding on to santa claus. How did Einstein maintain his spirituality as he uncovered the falsity of the bible. That amazed me. My guess is that his spirituality was a personal creation that he constantly changed to meet his needs. I suspect his religion had nothing in common with Dawkins proofs.

Skipjack Joe - 4-20-2012 at 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Igor have you read any Dawkins? He presents a lot of thoughtful answers to questions about religion.

Dawkins thinks that religion is hardwired into us. Participation in organized religion starts, in all societies through all times, with a parent telling a child that he/she is a christian, muslim, jew, etc. largely as a function of where the child was born. Religion is, Dawkins hypothesizes, an unintended by-product of evolution. Natural selection favored children who did what their parents told them to do (“…stay away from that cliff…don’t put your hand in that fire…don’t jump in that water…etc.”) The kids who paid attention to their parents tended to survive and procreate more often than those who didn’t. But along with the wise admonitions, early kids almost always got some bad advice (“…we must worship (zeus, apollo, sun woman, moon man, god, allah, etc.) so the crops will be good and the sun will continue to rise…”). The children favored by natural selection thus got the religious garbage along with the stuff that was actually valuable.

This may explain the persistence of religion in human society (the Russian experience you describe) and the undeniable craving many have for some form of spirituality.

[Edited on 4-20-2012 by Ken Bondy]

Ken,

I still feel we are talking on different levels. Dawkins addrresses the usefulness of religion in social interaction. I have little interest in that.

I am interested in those who are drawn to the spiritual world with questions like who am I really. What am I. Where am I going. What is this all about. To feel and understand that which is not understable. A modern biochemical explanation of firing neurons does absolutely nothing to quench the thirst.

Perhaps the cave dwellers came to the shaman to physically mend them. But knowing man I suspect that they also came with the above. At least in feeling.

Ken Bondy - 4-20-2012 at 08:53 AM

Igor

That Dawkins "hardwired by evolution" discourse came from "The God Delusion", Chapter 5, but he mentions it in other books also.

Einstein's spirituality was focused on the physical world. Here's one of my favorite Einstein quotations:

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." (Albert Einstein, 1954)

Ken Bondy - 4-20-2012 at 08:59 AM

<<A modern biochemical explanation of firing neurons does absolutely nothing to quench the thirst.>>

Igor do you acknowledge the possibility that 'firing neurons" might be all there is?

Have you ever investigated Buddhism?

Skipjack Joe - 4-20-2012 at 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
<<A modern biochemical explanation of firing neurons does absolutely nothing to quench the thirst.>>

Igor do you acknowledge the possibility that 'firing neurons" might be all there is?

Have you ever investigated Buddhism?

I can accept anything. Yet it is so detached from human consciousness that I find it very difficult. It's interesting how you worded the question. "might be all there is". It reveals that you too would be happier with more? The idea that Alex would not be at my side if not for an occurence with a probability of 10,000 to 1 is astounding. Even though I know it to be true. Where would he be otherwise. Would none of us come to be if not for accidents? That seems incredible. It's hard to accept.

No exposure to Buddhism other than meditation. No, I am stamped for life with the faith of my forefathers. Too much is tied into it. I am incapable of this now, nor probably before,

[Edited on 4-20-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

vgabndo - 4-20-2012 at 10:43 AM

Igor, If I may be so familiar, when I stumbled on the Voltaire quote that is the last one on my signature, there was a bit of an Aha Moment. From having recently sat through a complete description by Neil DeGrasse Tyson about how mindblowingly tiny any human is in the sphere of things, I'm ready to think that my mind has so far exceeded the reasoning power it needed to feed, house and shelter itself that it reverts to a form of mental masturbation. For many, especially the progressive mind, it seems there is pleasure in playing with new concepts and ideas. "We" also seem to take great pleasure in convincing ourselves that something we believed is true actually is so.

I hope I live long enough to see the new brain chemistry science progress to solid theory. I doubt I'll ever understand most of it, but I sure want the chance to try.

I thought that the preliminary studies showing the same parts of the brain "reacting" to both the god concept and the self concept to be potentially revealing. If I got that right? I want more!

Paula - 4-20-2012 at 11:34 AM

Igor, as you are stamped by the faith of your forefathers, I may be stamped by the lack of spirituality in mine. Religion was non-existent in my entire family, and was only ever mentioned in a political sense. Coming from where I do, I think any answers that the figures in the paintings were seeking were for more mundane issues. I am perfectly comfortable with the possibility that I am wrong on this, and I don't find it distressing that people find different things in what is before them. The figures are beautiful and mysterious, and that is enough for me.

Skipjack Joe - 4-20-2012 at 11:51 AM

Yes it is. That's why I came to you. As a lover of art.

danaeb - 4-20-2012 at 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
The figures are beautiful and mysterious, and that is enough for me.

I couldn't agree more. Last month I saw paintings up in the mountains outside Loreto. Not so many human-like figures but lots of dolphins, whales and tortugas. And many curious graphic symbols; red and black dabs, a red grid figure and another figure that looked like an upside down centipede. Who know what it all means?

windgrrl - 4-20-2012 at 12:01 PM

Very nice to see such a thoughtful dialogue here. Wouldn't it be fine to be having this discussion in one of the caves?

The shaman are thought to be trying to access the spirit world through beliefs and rituals. I can imagine this function & process is for the good of the survival of the tribe as sprituality is well known to be a positive factor in health, especially mental health and well-being. It just can be such a thorny topic!

It might be helpful to understand that shamanic spiritual practices are pan-theistic and nature-centric in contrast to the modern mono-theistic and man-centric model we have today. The pantheistic view commonly found across ancient societies has been largely overridden by modern religion, but was far more closely connected to a relationship with nature and the cycle of life.

It is wonderful that shamans left a record for us to ponder and interpret.
In the end...accessing our own sense of spirituality is not resticted to a single source. We get the message from many sources and in the end our freedom to explore spirituality and our spritual perception is our own.

It's always enlightening to explore the world through someone else's lenses.

DianaT - 4-20-2012 at 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by windgrrl
Very nice to see such a thoughtful dialogue here. Wouldn't it be fine to be having this discussion in one of the caves?

The shaman are thought to be trying to access the spirit world through beliefs and rituals. I can imagine this function & process is for the good of the survival of the tribe as sprituality is well known to be a positive factor in health, especially mental health and well-being. It just can be such a thorny topic!

It might be helpful to understand that shamanic spiritual practices are pan-theistic and nature-centric in contrast to the modern mono-theistic and man-centric model we have today. The pantheistic view commonly found across ancient societies has been largely overridden by modern religion, but was far more closely connected to a relationship with nature and the cycle of life.

It is wonderful that shamans left a record for us to ponder and interpret.
In the end...accessing our own sense of spirituality is not resticted to a single source. We get the message from many sources and in the end our freedom to explore spirituality and our spritual perception is our own.

It's always enlightening to explore the world through someone else's lenses.

So very well stated! While my personal spiritual beliefs run along the lines of pantheism, my beliefs are always evolving and yes, it is always interesting to hear about the beliefs of others and their path to those beliefs. It is why I enjoy the UU Church so much.

Out of all the books I have read in my personal search, three of my favorites are very small books that are deceptively simple at first glance, and ones I think a few of you might enjoy.

They were written by a former UU Minister from Santa Fe, Webster Kitchell. He is so longer of this world and I am so pleased that I had the opportunity to hear him speak.

God's Dog: Conversations With Coyote

If you enjoy that one, you will probably enjoy the two books that followed.

Natalie Ann - 4-20-2012 at 01:37 PM

What a magical moment, Igor... when first you noticed that overhang, were drawn to it! I can only imagine the excitement and joy you must have felt upon discovering the paintings.... and then that strong feeling of awakening and connection to Spirit and to peace. What a gift for you.

Your pix clearly relate your experience. There's a sense of wonder enhanced by the framing, the curves and textures of the rock adding to the somewhat sensual feel of the images.

You also stimulated good discussion - always refreshing. I'll have something to say there when I've felt more parts of the elephant.

nena

Taco de Baja - 4-20-2012 at 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by windgrrl
Very nice to see such a thoughtful dialogue here. Wouldn't it be fine to be having this discussion in one of the caves?

It is wonderful that shamans left a record for us to ponder and interpret.
In the end...accessing our own sense of spirituality is not resticted to a single source. We get the message from many sources and in the end our freedom to explore spirituality and our spritual perception is our own.

It's always enlightening to explore the world through someone else's lenses.

The other thought to ponder is: Are there really images of shamans, or images left by shamans? Nice thought, but is it true?

As an old (1600s) saying goes:
"Fools' names, like fools' faces,
Are often seen in public places."

In modern times this saying fits politicians, actors and sports 'heroes'; and we all know how foolish many [most] of them are. True spiritual people (think of a bodhisattva, or a guru on the remote mountain-top or a monk in a remote monastery), often shun the lime-light, and prefer to be sought out rather than the "look-at-me-look-at-me celebrities" that crave/need attention.

Maybe these images are little more than a "Vote for Bob" yard sign, or "Come see the latest concert by Venado and the Seis Dedos, next Tuesday". Probably not, but who knows. It sure does not take away from their value, or their ability to create a dialog, that's for sure.

mtgoat666 - 4-20-2012 at 02:03 PM

images were by people just hanging out and making art, when they had spare time not consumed by sex, hunting/gathering, music and war.

don't know why you want to find special mysticism in the images, all art is same, just the media and styles change over time.

the one thing about baja cave art is the artists' culture had not yet developed much proportionism or realism in their 2-d drawing/painting skills.

Skipjack Joe - 4-20-2012 at 03:29 PM

After speaking to Natalie I want to add a bit more ...

The images I chose to show you were a few of many. It was midmorning and the overhang was in shadow. I set the camera to 'overcast' which naturally saturates all colors. I shot the red figures against the yellow wall and was pleased. I felt it represented the image as I saw it. I then searched for compositions and I wrote about that already. Below were people half black and half red. I worked on that but couldn't get the blacks to satisfy me and left. At the left end of the cave there were more shamans. But the harsh lighting was inconsistent with my work. So ignored.

So this is my visual interpretation of what I saw. I have seen numerous pictures of paintings that do not do them justice. Casual shots by photographers that record but don't bring the magic.

So I give you the magic that's there. Just disclosed in my way. It's one of the pleasures of photography. The magic of color and imagination.

David K - 4-20-2012 at 04:13 PM

Igor, it is beautiful... Do you know if it is mentioned in Harry Crosby's Cave Painting books at all? The very same types of figures are in other cave sites, but I didn't see any photos exactly the same (in his newer edition). Oh, and not to worry... if I find it in a book, I won't disclose the location on Nomad.

Taco de Baja - 4-20-2012 at 04:25 PM

Here's a picture in slightly different lighting conditions, and a different angle:

Cypress - 4-20-2012 at 04:27 PM

Have seen rock paintings in various places. Can it be that they're ancient versions of modern graffito? Nothing more, nothing less? :biggrin:

I think maybe the tribes could produce someone with a little more artistc ability. Most of those rock drawings could have been done by a 5 yr. old. :?:

They could chip rocks into fine arrow heads and tools but only make stick drawings? :?:

David K - 4-20-2012 at 04:46 PM

It is believed (by some) that the great murals were created by a race of giants who lived on the peninsula before the Cochimí Indians the Spanish interacted with from the 1500's to the 1800's.

It is possible that it was an early advanced race or tribe that had time to kick back and paint between hunts. The Cochimí that the Jesuits interacted with were pretty primitive and ate bugs, the second harvest, swallowed meat on a string only to pull it out and pass it to the next guy to have a taste... None would be seen doing anything artistic.

mtgoat666 - 4-20-2012 at 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
The Cochimí that the Jesuits interacted with were pretty primitive and ate bugs, the second harvest, swallowed meat on a string only to pull it out and pass it to the next guy to have a taste... None would be seen doing anything artistic.

the jesuits were so narrow-minded that they saw the world through a pinhole,... jesuit recollections like those above are mostly hogwash.

Taco de Baja - 4-20-2012 at 05:26 PM

Quote:

Baja California Rock Art Dated to 7,500 Years Ago
John Roach
for National Geographic News

July 17, 2003
The giant rock art murals that grace the walls of hundreds of shelters and caves found in the hardscrabble hills of the high sierra in Baja California Sur, Mexico, date back as far as 7,500 years ago, according to data from an ongoing study of the area.

The ancient dates for the paintings cast little light on the mystery of who made them and why, but it suggests that whoever the painters were they came well before the Aztecs established their culture in central Mexico in the 12th century A.D.

"Once we did the dating and got to know how old they are, we were surprised by their antiquity because they look so fresh, so well preserved," said Alan Watchman, a geoscientist and Australian Research Fellow at the Australian National University in Canberra and co-leader of the study team.

The paintings are of giant humans and animals, mostly done in red and black but also in white and yellow. The human figures are static, but the animals bound in herd-like movement across the rock-wall canvases.

Harry Crosby, an author and Baja California rock art expert in La Jolla, California, suggests that the paintings might represent a sense of "us and them" with the humans painted to depict how they dealt with each other in a static manner but with the animals as "food on the hoof."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/07/0717_030717_bajarockart.html

The climate in the area was likely different 7,500 years ago and may have afforded the people time to make the paintings.

rts551 - 4-20-2012 at 05:29 PM

Igor, do we have any idea how many different indigenous people lived on this part of the continent?

vgabndo - 4-20-2012 at 05:29 PM

The Lascaux paintings in France are said to be 32,000 years old. Primitive people had been making art for a long time before the period of occupation of Baja by these mysterious people.

The production of "sacred" objects which require more of a culture's resources than seems justifiable is common even in more modern man. The book Ken recommended suggests that it may have taken 100 man centuries to build a cathedral, yet it actually housed and sheltered no one! It isn't a stretch for me to accept that Baja aboriginals might have gone to extraordinary efforts to decorate their own cathedrals.

[Edited on 4-21-2012 by vgabndo]

Skipjack Joe - 4-20-2012 at 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Igor, do we have any idea how many different indigenous people lived on this part of the continent?

No idea. In fact I'm learning from you guys. The links of windgirl and taco de baja have been very edifying. I am happy to read that all of these sites are slowly being preserved for National Heritage. Unfortunately my cave is not within those boundaries. Hopefully, in some small way it will arrest development that's scheduled through there. But I have little understanding in how such battles are fought, Anyway, it's just wishful thinking.

windgrrl - 4-20-2012 at 06:35 PM

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/baja.html

...gives a brief description of indegenous tribes in Baja. If you "Google" Cochimi, a simple map of tribes pops up.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Igor, do we have any idea how many different indigenous people lived on this part of the continent?

Ancient Mysteries and First Civilizations

Gypsy Jan - 4-20-2012 at 06:50 PM

I recommend the novel, "The Charlemagne Pursuit" by Steve Berry.

It offers a lot to think about.

http://tinyurl.com/6t8reoe

rts551 - 4-20-2012 at 06:52 PM

these articles only explore fairly recent history. I was thinking of long before the 1500's.

Quote:

Originally posted by windgrrl
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/baja.html

...gives a brief description of indegenous tribes in Baja. If you "Google" Cochimi, a simple map of tribes pops up.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Igor, do we have any idea how many different indigenous people lived on this part of the continent?

bufeo - 4-20-2012 at 07:13 PM

I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread (with the exceptions that are probably obvious). Thank you again SJJ for starting it.

Allen R

Skipjack Joe - 4-20-2012 at 07:30 PM

For some reason my mind keeps going to this goya painting.

It, of course, has nothing to do with the subject matter. Except that the raised arms generate the same tension and vulnerability I feel in the mural.

[Edited on 4-21-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

39180117.jpg - 49kB

yukonrob - 4-20-2012 at 11:10 PM

The pictures remind me (alot) of Mesa del Carmen, very very similar.

vgabndo - 4-21-2012 at 01:24 PM

I wonder if this is not a "natural" pose for a human in some form of stress or transport. I had never thought much about "wringing of hands" until one day I watched a slow motion mini-disaster occur in front of me. As the 4800 pounds of shelving came off the lift gate and into my neighbor contractor's brand new store front, I realized I had been wringing my hands in helplessness. It was an involuntary reaction in front of my crew, I assure you. :lol: