BajaNomad - Mexicans aren't all that great.

Mexicans aren't all that great.

jrbaja - 10-7-2004 at 10:26 AM

They are just humans!
I have noticed how one of the things that stands out the most to many foreign travelers here are how helpful and friendly the locals are.
I have also noticed the same about the people in Borneo, Malaysia, and the Phillipines. They go out of their way to help someone in trouble or could use some help with something like changing a tire.
All of these people insist you share something of theirs with them (coffee, beer, food, anything) if they have something and are the most gracious hosts.
Is it possible that we as americans have forgotten what it is like to be human ? Why is it so unique for us to see people go out of their way to help others. No matter who they are.
Are we so caught up in $$, keeping up with the Joneses, having lot's of stuff, that we have forgotten what it's like to be human?
Well, it's really pretty easy if anyone is interested. Since tourist season is about to start down here, I thought I would mention some differences between here and there.
Humans will not steal from you. And as long as you don't hang out in the touristy areas, you will meet humans.
Humans don't put up with dishonest people. And they deal with it accordingly. It's not a matter of attorneys and ridiculous justice systems. If you are dishonest, jealous, or a big mouthed lazy jerk, you are going to get it. By your friends, neighbors and family. This is good and it works.
Rather than spending your vacations paranoid about whatever and acting like it, try to remember that these people were brought up with their families learning about being human, rather than by babysitters or daycare and not learning to be human.
I was talking with a friends Mexican wife the other day and she was kind of flabbergasted that we as americans only talk to our children once or twice a month after the kids have left home.
She said she couldn't stand the thought of not talking to her children every day at least by phone. "We are included in each others lives every day" she said. "We are a family".
I think that pretty much says it all ! And I think that many of us could certainly use some training in being human, before it's too late!!
:?:

Mexicans / USA folks----different????

Barry A. - 10-7-2004 at 01:29 PM

JR----you make a very strong implication that us folks north of the border are somehow different than the folks south of the border. That has never been my experience----there are great, and not so great, people in both countries, or at least that is my experience. I have often wondered why there is generic "people bashing" of the citizens of both countries-----why don't folks realize that both countries, and their citizens, have good points and bad points, and some are good and others are bad----that is just the way it is. We are culturally different, and I think that is just grand!!! Most people are just fine, in my opinion, but I am always watchful for the jerks, in both countries. To me that is just common sense. I get so tired of people bashing people, and will never understand it. Barry A.

Growing up in s.cal

jrbaja - 10-7-2004 at 01:54 PM

probably jaded my opinion. :lol:

But, rather than people bashing, which I am quite capable of, that was meant as a point to ponder.
There is a big difference between the two countries although, the difference is getting smaller and smaller with all the new "enclaves" and demands made by the people in them.

Enclaves-----what a disaster

Barry A. - 10-7-2004 at 02:21 PM

I grew up in Coronado (Navy brat)----was there for 30 years-----granted, Coronado is not typical, but it is S. CA. Been gone for last 35 years except for a 13 year stint in El Centro, prior to 18 years ago. I loved both places.

I agree with you completely about the "enclaves"---folks whining and demanding what they presumably ran away from----i.e. they move to another country (or place) and then try to make it over into what they left behind------insanity, or at the least against all common sense!!!!!

I appreciate your postings as they DO make us think----in addition, I applaud all the good that you do in Mexico, and your obvious passion (sp?).

Barry A.

Thanks Barry

jrbaja - 10-7-2004 at 02:29 PM

Thinking is all I ask and the reason I post my babble.
The pictures and stories are for all to enjoy. No thinking required. :light:

You crack me up Amigo !!

jrbaja - 10-7-2004 at 03:33 PM

Definitely a pleasure meeting that one, and you are one lucky guy !! Keep taxiing and call your son !! hahahahahahaha
We have a lot to learn, don't we ? :light:

JESSE - 10-7-2004 at 06:46 PM

I think its a city-small town thing, theres plenty of nasty ugly evil Mexicans in the cities ( and some in small towns), and in the small towns like almost everywhere in the world, folks tend to be kinder, gentler, and more willing to help.

If any of you have any doubts about Mexicans being as nasty as hell, i can show you around Tijuana if you like :lol:

No fair Jesse

jrbaja - 10-7-2004 at 07:04 PM

That's like comparing so. cal to the rest of the world. :lol:

But that reminds me, when my car stalled coming into Tijuana in a pond in the road, two guys came and pushed me out, checked it out, dryed the distributor, rubber banded a plastic bag over it and refused any payment whatsoever.
They obviously weren't rich guys either!

[Edited on 10/8/2004 by jrbaja]

JESSE - 10-7-2004 at 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
That's like comparing so. cal to the rest of the world. :lol:

David K - 10-7-2004 at 07:27 PM

JR, what kind of terrible thing happened to you here in Southern California??? I live here and I am a 'human'... and I am not alone.

Like Jesse and others said, when you are in a denser populated area (ie. city) there is a greater number of "un-humans".

Bad and good are everywhere and in about the same per centage... Out in the boonies, Baja or the American west, there are less bad people... because there are less total people.

However, your comments about the parent-child relationship is right on... For many Norte Americano families, it is that way... and it is so sad! But not 100% true... I do very much admire the Mexican custom of close families (and any American families that are close).

[Edited on 10-8-2004 by David K]

More city vs. rural

rogerj1 - 10-7-2004 at 07:47 PM

My observation in my own little neck of the woods is that the big difference is between city dwellers and rural or small town folk. I moved from Seattle to the small town of Gig Harbor 10 years ago and am shocked by how less civil people are when I return to Seattle. And Seattle is supposed to be one of the more polite cities in the country. One of the diffferences I've noticeded is in eye contact. People in the city will go out of their way to avoid eye contact. People in small towns seek it out. Driving manners deteriorate the more lanes on the road. My theory is that in a small town you have to be accountable for your actions throughout the day. The person you cutoff in traffic may be very well be someone you know. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

JR, what kind of terrible thing happened to you here in Southern California???

jrbaja - 10-7-2004 at 09:12 PM

It's not so much that David but having lived many other places as well, putting it politely, I just prefer those other places. :light:

For many reasons!

Dave - 10-7-2004 at 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
There is a big difference between the two countries

I don't buy your argument.

What things are exclusively different about our two countries/peoples? Name one thing, cultural or otherwise, that exists only in Mexico, or the U.S.

BajaNomad - 10-8-2004 at 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
...Name one thing, cultural or otherwise, that exists only in Mexico, or the U.S.

American Football? :tumble:

Valueing family more than money!

jrbaja - 10-8-2004 at 09:03 AM

Dave - 10-8-2004 at 02:47 PM

"Valueing family more than money!"

That ONLY Mexicans value family over money or that NO Mexicans value money over family is a myth.

Millions of families in the U.S. and elsewhere on this planet are loving and caring. Mexicans do not have a monopoly on understanding the true worth of family and there are plenty of Mexicans, just like Americans, who could care less.

Care to try again?

Ok Dave,

jrbaja - 10-8-2004 at 03:58 PM

I am generalizing but,

you are used to the people that live up here. And I know you are so busy that you don't have time to mingle much in places besides Rosarito.
But, the places that I go and the majority of people in the cities down south that haven't been affected by foreign influence, tourism, and greed (wherever that may come from!) are the most caring and family/friends oriented people I have ever seen.
They trust each other and outsiders as well as long as respect is shown. People that don't fit in find out right away and are dealt with rather than a bunch of gossip and whining as in certain communities springing up down here.
To this day this is true. It used to be the same in the other places I mentioned as well but that may have changed due to certain feelings shared by many around the world.
It also used to be true in most of the rural areas in the u.s. as well, but even that seems to have changed.
So I hope you get what I am trying to say. There are big differences between the cultures. And I believe it stems from values.
And these guys values and priorities are something quite different than the majority of their northern neighbors.

Herb - 10-8-2004 at 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
"Valueing family more than money!"
That ONLY Mexicans value family over money or that NO Mexicans value money over family is a myth.?

Your myth, as stated, was never stated by anyone but you. I didn't read where anyone said all Americans are evil and all Mexicans are good. However, if you do not think there are cutltural norms for acceptable societal behavior that differ distinctly between the US and Mexico, then you really don't get out much.

Maybe they are just a bunch of dope smoking, skinny-dipping hippies as Skeet would suggest, but every academic sociological study that has ever been done in recent years has found a much stronger sense of family in Mexican society (as a whole) than in the US. Of course, the world is becoming a smaller place and, sadly, those differences do appear to be eroding rapidly.

When I lived in Mexico City 20 years ago there were just as many thieves and ways for them to seperate you from your money as in any big US city. However, there was a distinct difference in the value of human life and, as a result, a much lower incidence of violent crime. When it came to violence, the streets of the DF were much safer than the streets of San Diego (which had one of the lowest crime rates of any US city at the time).

Sadly, even that has changed there and the DF is now probably one of the most dangerous cities in the world to live in (If I can believe what I see and hear on Mexican news stations)

It may not be scientific, but...I do know that I spend a lot of time in rural areas of both countries and there is a huge difference in the values, friendliness and disposition of the "average" person that I encounter and the way that I am treated. Something is different..

Damn HoseA

jrbaja - 10-9-2004 at 09:01 AM

I miss out on all the fun. Was that the neighbor I briefly met ? And it sounds as if you took the Mexican (human ) approach to dealing with this clown. I hope ! :fire:

David K - 10-9-2004 at 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
I miss out on all the fun. Was that the neighbor I briefly met ? And it sounds as if you took the Mexican (human ) approach to dealing with this clown. I hope ! :fire:

This "clown" was a Mexican (born and raised) per Hose A: "A man that just moved next door to me last month was born in Sonora. He lived there for 24 years."

Good and Bad are on BOTH sides of the border and of both nationalities...

You are really irritating a lot of Mexican and American Nomads with you narrow views JR.

I know you are a nice guy (in person), but your campaign to paint all Norte Americanos as bad and all Mexicanos as good is really devisive.

Don't you think most Nomads here are 'humans'? What would you like to come out of all this? What is your solution to make things better?

Hose A.....

jeans - 10-9-2004 at 09:32 AM

....Sounds like you met the Mexican counterpart to JR

:lol:

David

jrbaja - 10-9-2004 at 10:26 AM

I seriously doubt that I am peeing anybody off if they have an open mind. Obviously some don't !
And many of you u2u each other for support which is very similar to what I am saying about the gringo enclaves. Remember the chicken coop group ?
If some of you can't understand what I am saying or getting at, it doesn't come as a big surprise.
These are the people trying to write books or whatever on Baja without knowing much or giving diddly squat back to the Mexicans. (It's all about me, right?)
And as far as me having narrow views Dude, take a look in the old mirror! I listen to all views and don't just make these observations or statements out of boredom.
I make them because they are true. I live here and I am an american. I see what the majority of americans act like here on a daily basis and it isn't pretty.
And I am not the one that coined the phrase "ugly american". That was somebody before me but I'm pretty sure they didn't come up with it because they were bored either.
Now, as far as solutions, I wasn't quite ready to go there yet but since you are so impatient, ok.
Many of you think I am anti american. I am one! And I am not anti me. But, having been around other nationalities in real life, not just on cruise ships or gringo enclaves but with the actual families, I have learned that these people have true happiness. It shows in their eyes and their singing most all the time. I do not see this in americans. Any of them !
I have learned that we as americans are missing out on what many consider to be the most important aspect of life. True happiness. We may have money and stuff but what it has done is cause us to be paranoid. We are afraid of getting ripped off constantly by our friends and neighbors no less. And with good reason too.
And we are so caught up with making money, for some just trying to pay the bills but still, it is the primary focus of most of our lives. And because of this, our society has lost time to raise our own children who in turn grow up without the love they need as humans.
Thus, the crime, drug problems, lack of quality education, and people that don't really have morals that are becoming more prevalent every day in that country.
And, some of them are so narrow minded that they don't care what the rest of the world thinks. This to me is incredible but probably stems from the reasons stated above.
I am trying to open peoples eyes to some issues that can be improved upon. Nobody is better than anybody else. We are all humans and we should treat each other as such.
Perhaps if we learned to discuss things with each other rather than behind each others backs, some of the american paranoia would go away. If you dion't know what I mean, oh well!
But, to ignore what I am saying and pretend that it isn't true means that there is a good reason for gringo enclaves. Safety from who knows what, rumors?
Yes David, I do have many solutions which I also try to practise. Go out and show a random act of kindness to somebody you don't know. :light:

Dave - 10-9-2004 at 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Herb
if you do not think there are cutltural norms for acceptable societal behavior that ((differ distinctly)) between the US and Mexico

I would like to hear about them. Tell us please.

I'll start,

jrbaja - 10-9-2004 at 12:33 PM

Dating, Finding Money, Offering assistance rather than being afraid of strangers, Singing, Sharing, Interest in the rest of the world and their ideas and accepting them, Family "closeness" and values, a true interest in education rather than just having to be there (school), a society where the children can actually learn because they are all equal in school and wear the cutest of uniforms, People are safe to walk around at night, There is very little crime unless it involves getting drugs to their northern neighbors, uh, let me think, I'll get back to you but as you asked Herb, I'm sure he will have more and better examples.

Awareness is the key. Talking about it openly is step one in the mending process. Which is what this is all about !
Not just whining as David seems to think.

Oh yeah,

jrbaja - 10-9-2004 at 01:08 PM

How they deal with their aging relatives and senior citizens :biggrin:

JR

Skeet/Loreto - 10-9-2004 at 02:55 PM

JR my Friend you are starting to sound like a very Narrow-Minded Southern Baptist Preacher!!!!!!.

The world is not perfect, Humans are not perfect, Baja and mexicanos are not perfect, Norte americanos are not Perfect.

As you Rant and Rave from your Pulpit , your message is loosing its Value! Step Back, take a deep Breath, say a Prayer or Two, and rethink just what and how you are starting to Sound.

Jerry Farwell? Pat Robertson? Jimmy Swaggart?

Your Normal Good Works for the People you Like is getting Lost in your Bad Lanuage.

People are loosing Respect for you no matter your Good Works. If you would like People to Help you are going to have to change your Awful message.
You must learn that if you want people to Help in your endevor you can get "More Flies with Honey than Vinegar" !!!

Skeet/Loreto

"You have now been to the Woodshed"

Skeet

jrbaja - 10-9-2004 at 03:52 PM

I am well aware that some people will be turned off by what I am saying. A blemish on the perfect society!
And these truths are just getting worse by being ignored. Most anyone who has spent time with un americanized Mexicans are amazed by their happiness and honesty. I would think that you of all people would be aware of this.
I am not a preacher. Just a concerned ex citizen that has the juevos to not ignore problems and say something about it. Of course that will offend some.
And if some of these people want to take it out on the health of a little kid it wouldn't surprise me in the least. That's part of the problem with paranoia, they also need to "get even" no matter who is hurt.
No wonder nobody sings up there!
I will do everything in my power to help Aaron beside pretend I am someone I am not.
I believe in what I say and it is meant to open up some eyes, and possibly minds.
I'm not sure which part of what I am saying you disagree with but I have given it a lot of thought before posting especially at this time.
It's all about open discussion. For starters.

And, I never heard anything back from Dr. Habif. I emailed him twice with all the info about Aaron???

And, according to the number of viewers
to my rants, it gives us something to do :lol:

Speaking of Aaron.....

Tucker - 10-9-2004 at 04:13 PM

Why was it necessary for the Rochins to cancel his Friday appointment, because of the lack of funds?

Actually Tucker

jrbaja - 10-9-2004 at 05:01 PM

I have been in constant communication with the Rochins
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[Edited on 10-10-2004 by Q87]

[Edited on 10-10-2004 by BajaNomad]

Very nice drivel...

Tucker - 10-9-2004 at 05:30 PM

You seem to have a
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[Edited on 10-10-2004 by Q87]

[Edited on 10-10-2004 by BajaNomad]

Wow! Will that get deleted like my post did?

FrankO - 10-9-2004 at 05:32 PM

:lol:

[Edited on 10-10-2004 by FrankO]

Hey Q

jrbaja - 10-9-2004 at 06:25 PM

I think you need to keep those deletion marks under 50 kb or something. :lol:

I have done things to help! Have you?

Tucker - 10-9-2004 at 06:25 PM

Like I said

jrbaja - 10-9-2004 at 06:31 PM

what I do is none of your business. I deal with the Rochins. Period.
And I deal with everyone else personally.
If you feel I can't be trusted, why haven't you offered to take over or whatever it is you have in mind. 2000 pesos isn't do do when it comes to his problems. But thanks for that.
Have you even met the Rochins ? Do you even know their names?
What is your point other than trying to make me look bad? Are you actually doing anything besides saying that I am not?

jeans - 10-9-2004 at 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hose A
jeans:
Your dealings with JR must have been different than mine.

Hose A:

Well, this is getting interesting with the exchange with Tucker. And I see that JR has already edited a response to him. Even he knew he?d gone too far! I know & have met Tucker and can vouch that he?s a man of his word. He does what he says he will. (yeah, he can get a little peey at DK, but me too!) :rolleyes:

Yes...I agree with you about the apparent good deeds JR says does in the backcountry. Let?s say that earns him 10 points.

Then let?s subtract 5 pts. for his incessant bragging about it to build a ?I?m more human than you? platform.

You know the ?chicken coop group? comment after my post? That is his name for M, Georock & myself that he cooked up about a year ago. Every time a woman expresses a strong opinion on this board, he labels them hens. I?ll subtract another 3 points for that.

And he once called M ?Just another Laguna N**ger?, subtract another 5 pts. Let?s see?what else? Oh?subtract another 3 pts for the U2U he sent me telling me he would remove a post insulting me, IF I GIVE HIM MONEY for his alleged charities. Not one to be blackmailed, I terminated the thread.

Now?you?ll get a laugh out of this. I met a person at a business function in San Diego not long ago. When the person mentioned having a place in Rosarito Beach, I asked where. The answer prompted me to ask them if they knew a man by the name of JR. Well, their smile disappeared, eyes widened and they started sputtering beneath their breath the words A$$hole and son-of-a-b-tch and Pain-in-the ass. I was almost in tears I was laughing so hard. I had to rush to explain that?NO, I was NOT a friend of JR?s? for I was immediately suspect. Nice to know his neighbors think so ?highly? of him!

I could continue, but I?m bored now?. I?ve lost count on how far below Zero he is!!!
:lol:

[Edited on 10-10-2004 by jeans]

Pretty vague about your details there Jeans.

jrbaja - 10-9-2004 at 07:10 PM

And if you will remember, I said that if you took some stuff down i would remove the post saying that the baja emergency guide doesn't do a bit of good unless you speak Spanish. Another $$ making scheme by someone who has visited here a few times. You deleted the post, not me.
And the chicken coop group had nothing to do with male or female, and this thread now that tucker has attacked it , is a prime example.

Your alleged accusations are as full of it as your so called book. And what are you doing to help Tucker help Aaron?

Oh wait, you mentioned the neighbors.

jrbaja - 10-9-2004 at 07:17 PM

hahahahahahahaahahaha. If in fact you did actually meet one of them, I have already stated my feelings on most of my drunken neighbors that come down here. To their faces, not behind their backs or u2u messages to them. cluck cluck

My first post on this thread.................

Tucker - 10-9-2004 at 07:31 PM

Speaking of Aaron.....

Why was it necessary for the Rochins to cancel his Friday appointment, because of the lack of funds?

Is that an attack, or what!!

Seems like it's

jrbaja - 10-9-2004 at 07:45 PM

none of your business.
Why don't you ask the Rochins what's going on. I'm sure that if they feel like it is some business of yours, they will tell you.
Until I hear from Sergio, there's nothing really to say. Especially explaining things to you about them!

JR, DID YOU REALLY

M - 10-9-2004 at 10:29 PM

CALL ME JUST ANOTHER LAGUNA NI**ER?
jUST WHAT THE HECK HAVE i DONE TO YOU TO DESERVE THAT? aS A MATTER OF FACT, i EVEN DONATED SOME BUILING STUFF FOR YOUR HOME PROJECTS. wHAT GIVES FRIEND? m

FROM JEANS POST:::
You know the ?chicken coop group? comment after my post? That is his name for M, Georock & myself that he cooked up about a year ago. Every time a woman expresses a strong opinion on this board, he labels them hens. I?ll subtract another 3 points for that.

And he once called M ?Just another Laguna N**ger?, subtract another 5 pts. Let?s see?what else? Oh?subtract another 3 pts for the U2U he sent me telling me he would remove a post insulting me, IF I GIVE HIM MONEY for his alleged charities. Not one to be blackmailed, I terminated the thread.

Apparently M,

jrbaja - 10-9-2004 at 10:38 PM

You missed that thread a year or so ago. Perhaps since Jeans enjoys changing stories around so much, she can show some proof of what was said.
The terminology used was Lag N----rs which is what we called ourselves when we lived there. Carols sons were born there and still use it because it is actually kind of funny.
Haven't heard from you in a long time. What brings you around tonight ?
Jeans wants to now change things around to benefit her "cause".

jeans - 10-9-2004 at 11:10 PM

I'm not changing any story. You admit you called her that. Your tone, as usual was very insulting, after we reported a problem at Guadalupe.

It is common pattern for you to sling vicious insults, then say Hey...I was only joking. You already changed one of your posts to Tucker tonight, now didn't you? Do not bother to respond....I'm outta here for the rest of the weekend.

Have fun, kiddies

Most interesting---I think!

Baja Bernie - 10-10-2004 at 06:26 AM

The most interesting thing I found in this whole thread was Tucker's byline--"Zeal is fit only for wise men but is found mostly in fools." Ancient Proverb
Perhaps we should all reflect upon that for a moments or three.

Remember when I used to say=="Baja is about People helping People."
Now I am beginning to wonder.

Let's see some proof Jeans

jrbaja - 10-10-2004 at 08:56 AM

rather than justyour usual cackle. Anybody can do that and obviously, some are better at it than others.
If someone was trying to blackmail me, I would certainly say something about it rather than waiting a year to make the allegations.
But that's just me. You on the other hand can continue to try and round up your little group of grovelers to raise hate for one of the few people that actually try to help the people down here.
Got anymore zoo projects going on? You sure switched positions on that one didn't you? Just like your statements on here!

Actually JR

M - 10-10-2004 at 10:01 AM

I don't post much, I'm either in the hospital, staying in bed or when I do make it upstairs, I tend to lurk. M

Well M

jrbaja - 10-10-2004 at 10:24 AM

It's good to see you up and around. Speedy recovery !!
As far as I know, we had our differences quite some time ago and thought we had put them aside. I did.
For someone to try and rekindle them, i think is pretty chicken chit but, heck, i'm just a dumb old finger chopper.
And thank you for your help.

Annie T. - 10-10-2004 at 02:54 PM

Good grief Charlie Brown!! Sometimes it becomes darn unpleasant lurking!!

Late comment

Oso - 10-10-2004 at 06:41 PM

Obviously, I've stumbled onto this thread way late, so I won't get into the generalizations, which by nature are always subjective. But, I would like to inform our esteemed administrator that Futbol Americano is indeed played in Mexico, at least at the collegiate level. The U. at Toluca had a strong team when I taught English there a long long time ago. It just hasn't caught on at the televised, corporate-sponsored level there, same as soccer still has acceptance problems here.

Uptight angry people and this thread...

Herb - 10-11-2004 at 12:32 PM

I re-read the post that kicked off this thread (and many who replied should as well) and it is amazing that it diverged into such a p*ssing match.

It was never stated that ALL gringos are bad and ALL mexicans are good. (In fact, while many seem to attribute that point of view to him, I have never read or heard JR express that idea). His post began with the observation that foreign tourists are suprised by the amount of hospitality, kindness and helpfulness displayed by people in Baja. He then put forth some observations/ rhetorical questions about what may have happened to us north of the border that would make us think this behavior is so special when it "should" be just normal human values and behavior. He then proceeded to encourage people to get out and experience some of that difference. Finally, he mentioned one of the differences as an example.

I think you'd have to be pretty defensive to find that a negative post. And his post is true. If there were no difference between the way people act here and in Mexico, why are Americans always so surprised by these behaviors. Shouldn't we expect it if that is the way folks act back home? Most americans I know decry the erosion of what used to be traditional american family and community values. Most parts of Baja are comforting and refreshing because that erosion has not happened as rapidly there.

So, why would folks want to first lie about what his opionion is (All gringos are bad) and then use that as an excuse to just pile on with personal hatred and attacks? If you ask me, it kind of goes a long way towards proving his point.

Braulio - 10-11-2004 at 07:13 PM

Hey Oso - In Mexicali and TJ most of the colleges and unis have americano football teams - in fact the mascot of Cetys in TJ is the Oso. There even used to be a league amongst the colleges around TJ for female flag football - I imagine there still is. I guess that explains why life is so unhuman in those places. We have a Pop Warner club in Mexicali but practically all our opponents are from the other (US) side - I think we play Yuma one of these games.

Herb and Hose A (nice name) - Some of us prefer to simply relate specific experiences - that is - we're afraid of where the slippery path of generalization might lead us. In fact I'd bet that some of us on this board have even been affected personally by overzealous generalizations. Personally I try not to go there unless it seems really important - but I have to admit that I do cross the line more than I should and spend a lot of time uninserting foot.

As to whether or not JR is correct in these particular generalizations - well - I think his experience is probably kind of limited. Run a google on "Limoncito Sinaloa Valentine" . It's real easy to take micro events or personal experiences and then try to parlay them into some macro edict - blowhard types spend their life doing that. If JR didn't want the theme to be discussed in the manner that he presented them, then why in blazes is he posting his views on the internet. If he thinks the kitchen's too hot then he probably shouldn't have been boiling his stew there.
The more important issue for me is the amount of participation and info that a board like this loses because some people just won't participate side by side with stuff like this - in fact that's why I haven't participated much in the past year or so. If the issue's such a burning one for JR then fine - let him post away some place other the general discussion.

Personally I think that there's probably a correlation between reduced frontal lobe size and dishonesty - and that all women are conniving sinverg?enzas - but geez - I wouldn't get on the net and say that unless I was really drunk or lonely or something.

Dave - 10-11-2004 at 07:39 PM

Well folks, that's the yin and yang of it. I'll leave you to decide who is who and which is which. :?:

I would still like an answer to my question.
(See above, WAY above.)

Hey Dave

jrbaja - 10-11-2004 at 08:00 PM

although your question was directed to Herb, check posts 3 and 4 on page 2 of this thread.

Dave - 10-11-2004 at 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hose A
The nick name Hose A is a private joke between my wife and myself.

Not anymore.

jrbaja - 10-11-2004 at 08:04 PM

:lol:

Herb - 10-12-2004 at 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
I would still like an answer to my question.
(See above, WAY above.)

Well, JR had posted some but since that isn't enough here goes:

Divorce. The notion of a family unit is far more compelling than the notion of irreconcileable differences.

Scant clothing. Particularly in underage females. MUCH less of that down south than up north.

Sense of personal space. People get much closer to you in public places in Mexico. We think it is rude, they think it is rude when we object.

Timeliness. There is definitely a different standard for what is considered polite and not. As a college student in the US, if the professor was not in the classroom 5 min after the start of class, we assumed class was canceled and split. I was shocked to discover in Mexico City that the "polite" standard was to wait 20 min for each hour of class. I had one Mexican professor that would sometimes show up 20 to 40 min late for a 3 hour class. I once had a interview with the VP in charge of Latin American operations for my company in which he stated that, "These people believe there are things in life that are more important than always being on time and I think they are right."

Being able to relax and enjoy your meal in a restaurant and having to ask to get your check when you are ready to leave... vs. having the check shoved in front of you as soon as it becomes apparent that you are not going to spend any more money and then having the waiter hover over you periodically until you've paid and left.

Stopping to strike up a conversation with someone and becoming a coffee, soda, or dinner guest just because you were there and you were nice. Happens to me about every other time I go to Baja (south of Ensenada). Has NEVER happened to me in the US.

Smiles and waves.

People stopping to help people who are in obvious need of help. I once stopped to photograph some wildflowers beside the road in Baja and had trouble actually being able to set up and get a good shot because 4 different people stopped to see if I needed help. I've had 2 vehicle breakdowns in Baja and in both cases people stopped and broke out toolkits and became as engrossed in solving my problem as if it was their own vehicle. I've stopped to try and help people up here and have actually had them jump in their car and roll up the windows and lock the doors because they were leery of my intentions.

The focus in the US business community on "strictly business" without "getting to know" the people you are dealing with. I was asked to come along as the translator on a major business deal with one of my company's customers who had operations on both sides of the border. We negotiated over a substantial lunch in Tijuana and I had to constantly make appologies for my "rude white friend" who was already asking during appetizers, "So, can we do the deal?" I had to explain to him that we were still on our kids and their education at that point, no business yet, and that there would be no handshakes until desert.

I could go on and on but, hopefully, by now you get the point. And when I say Mexican values, I am speaking in generalities and I know that much of the urbanized border zone from Ensenada north does not reflect these values as much as the rest of Mexico. I also know that you will encounter people on both sides of the border that will act outside of what are considered the norms for socially acceptable behavior.

Now, I don't think the differences are genetically based. I just think that a lot of things compete for our attention and focus in the modern world. When you don't have things like personal wealth and your nation's prominence on the world scene to take up so much of your thoughts and attentions, it leaves you to focus more on the more traditional things
like family and community which I personally find more refreshing.

Finally, I once again do not get comments like Braulio's about :

"If JR didn't want the theme to be discussed in the manner that he presented them..."

Maybe I have a reading comprehension problem, but I took the post as the ultimate travel ad for Baja: Kind of a, Come here get out and explore and you'll find something different here and you just might like it. Something that we seem to have lost back home. If a positive reason to visit Baja doesn't belong on a Baja board, then what does? An appeal to come and find someplace just like home would not make me want to travel there. Heck, I could just stay home!

Braulio - 10-12-2004 at 09:55 AM

Herb -

I'm probably the one with the reading comprehension problem - I just don't see what the point is here or where you want to go with it.

I lived in Mexico City for 6 years - Mexico City is like the worst of the US on steroids.

You're simply comparing your experiences in one situation (big city socal I guess) with that in another (mostly smaller town Baja). Well of course there are differences.

But let's not start generalizing things beyond that point.

Let's see if we can find some common ground here - would you agree that the cultural differences within each country are much greater than the differences between the countries (Mexico and US) taken as a whole?

Man - I would.

Likewise comparing the states of Baja and the state of California. The culture in Alturas probably has more in common with Cd. Constitucion then with Chula Vista.

And you can take things down to differences within each county or city or side of the railroad tracks or whatever.

Great. Where are we going with this?

[Edited on 10-12-2004 by Braulio]

Where I was going with this

jrbaja - 10-12-2004 at 10:25 AM

is trying to point out some differences between the majority of people in the u.s. and the majority of people here in Baja.
And I was doing this to try and open up some eyes and teach them that it's for one, not quite so evil here as some think, and two, perhaps rather than ignoring some problems that seem to be getting worse all the time, because I care, I talk about them.
My drunken neighbors don't want to hear about it either as they bail their "perfect" kids out of jail!
Many think that if they ignore these not so pleasant problems, they will just go away. Not true obviously.
Again I will say, awareness is the first step. Talking about it openly is the second.
Posts do tend to get off track here but that's where this post started. :light:

Jr

Skeet/Loreto - 10-12-2004 at 10:37 AM

I think you should go up around Roy ,Utah compare the Manners with those of the Souther Baja Area. they are very Similar, I think because of the "Family Valves" practiced in both Places.

I have spent many years in Baja and mostly with the mexicano people. I do not agree with your thoughts that the Peole of Mexico need your Help to better themselves.

Chico Fernandes of San Nichalos taught me that many years ago.
"Why Should I grow Vegetables when i can catch fish"

DON'T BE SO SURE THAT YOUR HELP IS 100% desired and accepted. It may be that they are just puttin up with you because they do not want to offend.

Skeet/Loreto

Skeet

jrbaja - 10-12-2004 at 10:48 AM

Are you saying that Dr. Habif really doesn't need anything ?
And as far as the projects that I am doing, I was asked by the locals to help them out so their kids didn't have to go to La Paz or Los Cabos, or Ciudad Constitucion to work where many of them become involved with drugs and the big city stuff!
Many foreigners believe they should employ them as maids, gardeners, or construction workers.
I believe that if I teach them some stuff about controlling tourism and building with bamboo, they will own their own succesful businesses and not be dependant on gringo employment.
Teach them to fish! :lol:

And if I have to go all the way to southern Utah to find what I am talking about, I don't think I'm too far off base !!

[Edited on 10/12/2004 by jrbaja]

Utah has it's problems too!

bajapablo - 10-12-2004 at 11:14 AM

Older Brother Accused of Cushion-Fort Prisoner Abuse

PARK CITY, UT?Following a probe into activities that allegedly occurred inside a couch-cushion fort located in the basement of the Nelson home, Keith, 11, has been accused of mistreatment, abuse of power, and sitting on his 8-year-old brother Mark's head for up to two minutes at a time.

"What Mark told me was shocking," the boys' mother Elizabeth said Monday. "According to Mark, he and Keith were having fun playing Army until Keith captured Mark?which is what usually happens, because Mark is smaller?and put him inside the fort they'd made in the basement. I thought they were playing nicely down there, but there's nothing nice about noogies."

In addition to farting in the fort's entrance and forcing Mark to remain inside, Keith allegedly gave his brother Indian burns, grundies, and a sustained wet willy. Keith also reportedly subjected Mark to Chinese Finger Torture, by restraining him and methodically tapping his forehead until he screamed "uncle." Chinese Finger Torture was specifically outlawed by the Nelson family in December 2003, during talks held at Grandma Keller's house.

"I know boys are going to wrestle," Elizabeth said. "But I told Keith never to do that finger-tapping thing. It drives his brother absolutely crazy."

The upholstered prison, named "Fort Awesome" by Keith and Mark during a moment of unity, was made of cushions taken from the family's old blue couch and reinforced with several blankets and pillows. Although reportedly "grown-up proof," the fortress was slated for destruction even before the abuse charges were raised.

"The fortress was going to have to come down before dinner anyway," Elizabeth said. "But after this, you better believe it was gone. I made Keith march right down there and put everything away."

Although he did not witness the incident, Mark's 8-year-old playmate Jacob Oliveri said he can corroborate Mark's psychological-abuse charges.

"Once, when we were playing in the woods behind my house, Keith said he wanted to show us something," Oliveri said. "After we'd walked like 10 minutes, he told us to cover our eyes and count to 50 before opening them. When we opened our eyes, Keith was gone. We had to find our own way home."

Elizabeth said the stress that Keith has experienced during his first weeks in the sixth grade, and the fact that Mark "can be very bratty," may have contributed to the alleged abuse.

"I'm not going to say that Mark is completely innocent," Elizabeth said. "He sometimes gets a little too big for his britches. But that doesn't mean I'm going to look the other way when Keith forces Mark to smell his socks. Keith is older, and he should know better."

Elizabeth debriefed the boys' father Paul when he arrived home from work. While Paul pledged that the abuses would not go unpunished, he said he was not overly concerned about the charges.

"I had a talk with Keith and told him that he should be setting a better example for his brother," Paul said. "But if you ask me, Liz is overreacting. Boys will be boys. Although things probably did go a little too far, Keith was just playing. That's what big brothers do. And, when Mark reaches the upper grades, he's going to have to take care of himself. He's not going to have his mother to run to every time something happens."

Although Keith's PlayStation privileges have been revoked for a week, some experts say that punishment will only create a more hostile home environment.

"Taking away PlayStation rights may have been a mistake," said Dr. Ted Nealman, a noted child psychologist. "It's only going to create unnecessary resentment against Mark. Additionally, the public nature of the revocation means that every time the neighbors see siblings engaging in innocent tussling, they're going to sound the alarm. That's unfortunate, because, throughout the neighborhood, older brothers tend to do an excellent job of keeping their younger brothers out of trouble."

that was from theonion.com

bajapablo - 10-12-2004 at 11:16 AM

The fort where Keith (inset) allegedly abused his brother.

implements of torture

bajapablo - 10-12-2004 at 11:17 AM

I'm friggen cryin !!!

jrbaja - 10-12-2004 at 11:24 AM

:lol:

And, I'm sending that to my brother :lol:

I may have to move out of the state

bajapablo - 10-12-2004 at 11:27 AM

in order to distance myself from the scandal. I caught my own kids building a cushion fort in the bonus room the other day and had no idea what they were really up too...This article sheds some light as to what has been going on for years and not just in Utah.

[Edited on 10-12-2004 by bajapablo]

I'm 51

jrbaja - 10-12-2004 at 11:35 AM

and my brothers 6 years older. And we are from the Berkshires.
If this kind of thing is going on down here and I am not aware of it, I take back everything good I have ever said about this place!!

And I'd stay away from feeding them bean burritos!

this whole scandal thing sickens me.

bajapablo - 10-12-2004 at 11:48 AM

I was the oldest of 3 boys and I know for damn sure that the abuses never went past farting at the cushion-fort entrance. Never in a hundred years would I have rubbed a dirty sock in my brothers face.

JR, as a younger sibling, can you speak of the torture that you endured at Ft. Berkshire or is it too painful. If you have repressed the memories I apologize for making you confront the horrors of your past.

Dave - 10-12-2004 at 11:52 AM

Not the sock! Anything but the sock!

As Dr. Phil might say:

There are 14 traits of a "cereal" killer. Keith has 9 of them.

Herb - 10-12-2004 at 11:59 AM

I actually like the direction Pablo has taken this thread even better. At least I think we can all agree that this kind of brother treatment is universal among cultures and good for the soul and just plain funny as hell!

:lol:

Well, someone will proably take this wrong way and say that we're promoting violence or abuse. Oh, well. F T I T C T A J. :moon:

[Edited on 10-12-2004 by Herb]

Dave - 10-12-2004 at 12:15 PM

F T I T C T A J ?

What is that Herb, Spanglish? :biggrin:

Herb - 10-12-2004 at 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
F T I T C T A J ?

What is that Herb, Spanglish? :biggrin:

No, gutter english.

Hint: Last 4 initials stand for Can't Take a Joke.

Damn it Herb

jrbaja - 10-12-2004 at 12:36 PM

Put that post back up there! It wasn't offensive to anyone and sorta splains whea yoos cummin from!! :lol:

Pablo, you have pretty much covered the indoor "sports".
Now, there's caving in the entrance to the snow fort with we little ones in it, warp speed on the whirligig, test pilot for all new sled contraptions, steep hills and rafts, having the front seat on the skibobs and pretending the flashlight doesn't work deep inside the nearby mine.
And then their were the Eddie Haskells as all of his friends!
"Hey Mikey" Hell !!!! :lol:

Herb - 10-12-2004 at 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
Put that post back up there! It wasn't offensive to anyone and sorta splains whea yoos cummin from!! :lol:

Yeah but I didn't think your first post was offensive either, and you see what a firestorm that caused. :smug:

Braulio - 10-12-2004 at 04:10 PM

That's good stuff Bajapablo - did you write it yourself?

I hate it when conflicts come to a resolution - mostly because I usually wind up with some drunk slobbering all over me.

Anyway - as far as the cultural generalization thing goes - JR - Great - you want to provide food for thought for the rest of us - that's fine. But I hope somewhere in there you're conducive to learning a thing or two - otherwise it all comes off as a personal diatribe type deal.

Man - you guys gotta understand that I get this kind of my-dad's-better-than-yours like every freaking day. And I get it from like 80 different angles - mexicans b-tching about gringos, gringos about mexicans, gringos about their own, pochos about chilangos etc. etc. - and it never really goes anywhere.

The other day I was in a chinese restaurant in Mexicali eating and the waitress was complaining about the habits of the Korean (go figure) owners.

I've come to the conclusion that unless you've drunk from the breast (literally not rhetorically) of the milk of a culture or language then you're probably not going to understand a whole lot about it - and should probably keep the cyber yap shut and the ciber o?dos open with regard to the cultural analysis type stuff - and just rely on relating personal experiences.

I'm probably wrong.

Chau muchachos.

[Edited on 10-12-2004 by Braulio]

If nothing else Braulio

jrbaja - 10-12-2004 at 04:14 PM

you were the 1, 822 viewer on the subject. Get it ? :lol:

[Edited on 10/12/2004 by jrbaja]

Braulio - 10-12-2004 at 04:18 PM

Maybe.

Click me then.

I hope I'm wrong man.

[Edited on 10-12-2004 by Braulio]

Perhaps the more you bring it up

jrbaja - 10-12-2004 at 04:23 PM

and discuss it openly, it would actually go somewhere. If you can deal with all the pessimists sp., naysayers, and accusers that come along with it that is ! :lol:

I'm a firm believer in discussing problems and trying to remedy them. Must have come from running construction crews.
If that's a fault, I am guilty.

Braulio - 10-12-2004 at 04:28 PM

Like I said - I'm short on answers - it seems more like open wound type stuff that you're better off leaving alone - just live your life and deal with it on the micro scale- especially if you don't have mother's-milk type experience in the culture your talking about..

But wtf do I know.

[Edited on 10-12-2004 by Braulio]

No I didn't write that stuff

bajapablo - 10-12-2004 at 07:44 PM

You can find it and other great articles at
www.theonion.com

Herb - 10-12-2004 at 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Braulio
I've come to the conclusion that unless you've drunk from the breast (literally not rhetorically) of the milk of a culture or language then you're probably not going to understand a whole lot about it - and should probably keep the cyber yap shut and the ciber o?dos open with regard to the cultural analysis type stuff - and just rely on relating personal experiences.
[Edited on 10-12-2004 by Braulio]

OK, so I will no longer pretend any analysis in posting my limited personal experiences.

I only wish someone would have told me about this mother's milk thing before I spent $60,000 and 4 years of my life obtaining a degree in a subject matter that I could never possibly hope to learn anything about. :biggrin:

Oh well, at least the trips to hundreds of cities, towns and villages in 4 different countries over the years have helped me to collect some nice photos. :lol:

Braulio

jrbaja - 10-12-2004 at 09:47 PM

I'm curios as to your dealings with all these cultures complaining about each other and what you do to be in such a position.
You are wrong about certain things as you obviously don't know the details which is ok.
But what is your heritage and dealings with the rural folks in Baja?

I am assuming since you are somewhat confrontational as to how other's interact down here, you are involved somehow yourself ?

Braulio - 10-12-2004 at 11:57 PM

JR -

I run a business out of Mexicali - I ship and travel frequently to Baja, Sonora, and Sinaloa among other places. I travel further south to GDL and Mexico City about every other month or so. I'm not going to get any more specific than that.

What I know about rural Baja is probably about the same as you - just driving around talking to the folks. In fact I made a post here a year or so ago under "food for thought/political" that more or less goes along with your post - sans generaliztion stuff.

As far as exposure to cultural gripes - L - I don't know - being that close to the border you run into a lot of blowhard/know-it-all types who think they know everything there is to know about other cultures and people. For example a lot of folks in Mexicali like to generalize about the chinese - I just get tired of it all. I seems like the people who talk the most tend to know the least (but now I'm generalizing).

As far as the confrontational part - I was just following your lead dude - I'm really pretty mellow (says me).

Herb - yeah - you got shafted.

I'm going to grab a cold glass of milk and hit the sack.

G'night muchachos.

PD - somebody from this board's been screwing with my email - I don't like that.

bajalera - 10-19-2004 at 05:36 PM

I don't think any country has a monopoly on rudeness. Some people just seem to be embittered, impolite, prejudiced and generally not worth wasting your time with, wherever they may live.

bajalera