BajaNomad

Border war

Dave - 6-27-2003 at 05:33 PM

From todays Union Tribune. Krissman hit the nail on the head.


Our border war


By Fred Krissman
Krissman is a guest scholar at the Center for U.S.-Mexican Studies at the University of California San Diego. He is writing a book about how growers in the western United States recruit new immigrant workers from Mexico.

June 27, 2003


Unmanned aviation vehicles made in San Diego will soon be deployed along the Mexican border. These UAVs were used in our recent wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. A Predator drone blew up a vehicle containing a suspected terrorist in Yemen (the world's first aerial assassination by remote control).

A border-hugging Mexican highway between Tijuana and Playas passes through what already resembles a war zone. Federal agents use airplanes and helicopters, triple metal fences and ground motion detectors, banks of floodlights and night vision equipment, and all-terrain vehicles stationed a few hundred yards apart for miles on end. If the Tijuana-San Diego region is one city divided by an international boundary, the best comparison is Berlin at the height of the Cold War. Similar battlements are springing up all along the border. At the rate things are going, we will wind up with a 2,000-mile Berlin Wall.

The current situation is best described as a "low-intensity" conflict. Other American "police actions" of this type were in Korea, Cuba, and Vietnam. Even as those conflicts raged, the military stratagems devised there were applied to the southern border to try to control the entry of illicit drugs and unauthorized immigrants. Thus, border inspection evolved into an undeclared war in a piecemeal and reactive manner, without a cost-benefit analysis or an exit strategy.

Our border war has intertwined geographical, historical, cultural and economic origins. I focus here on the reason illegal drugs and immigrants continue to pour into the United States: We Americans generate a very high demand for both flows. The militarization of the border merely shifts the punishment for illegal behavior from us to the Mexicans who are trying to meet our demand. Before discussing immigration, the basic argument is outlined for the case of illicit drugs.

The United States is the most profitable market in the world for black-market drugs. Rather than allocate sufficient funds to curb our demand for these substances, the federal government lavishes tax dollars on weaponry and warriors to try to disrupt the systems of production and distribution, and to punish those who take part in these systems. But even when one route is sealed, a cartel destroyed or a regional producer forced out of the drug trade, new routes, cartels and peoples spring up to replace them. The profits are so high because many Americans will pay any price. That is why the "War on Drugs" has not and cannot be won. The alternative ? exemplified by post-Prohibition alcohol ? is to regulate these drugs. This approach eliminates the extreme violence and excessive profits of the black market, and provides a source of funding for the facilities that users need to kick the habit.

While millions of Americans use illicit drugs, the American economy as a whole is addicted to the use of "illegal" workers. Average homeowners and the heads of multibillion dollar corporations both employ undocumented immigrants. The patrons of the typical car wash, dry cleaner or restaurant are also complicit, benefitting from the low wages paid in those industries to these desperate workers.

The 8 million undocumented immigrants estimated to currently reside in the United States constitute the largest "illegal" population in the world. These people come to and survive in this country only because so many Americans provide substandard jobs that few legal residents will accept. Undocumented workers tend our crops, butcher our livestock, clean our offices, cut our grass, build our homes and raise our babies. Yet we persist in castigating Mexicans for trying to come here.

In the pre-Sept. 11, 2001, era, 80 percent of federal expenditures for immigration control were spent on the southern border. The cost of militarization escalated from a few hundred million dollars annually in the early 1980s to almost $10 billion a year by the late 1990s. Yet census and other data reveal that the number of undocumented immigrants doubled between 1990 and 2000.

While militarization of the border did not stop undocumented immigration, it greatly increased the cost of entry. The price that would-be immigrants paid to border smugglers grew from a few hundred dollars to $2,000 in the past decade. This has actually increased undocumented immigration. Many Mexicans now go into debt to pay their smugglers, making them more desperate for jobs, and thus more preferred by many employers. Once in the country, new immigrants are much less likely to return to their hometowns than in the past. Therefore, the number of undocumented immigrants is growing at a faster rate.

The much higher smuggling fees have made labor smuggling attractive to big-time criminal operations. Just as increased enforcement raises the profit margin for drug sales, so too for labor smuggling. Along with rising profits comes increased corruption, violence and risk. Of the three, the increasing level of risk is most immediately troubling.

The border death toll goes all but unnoticed by most Americans. The media offers occasional stories; a new record death toll (19 asphyxiated in a semi-truck's trailer on May 15 in Texas) or a particularly grisly event (five burned to death while hiding in a sugar cane field when the crop was torched by workers in preparation for harvest on March 25). But it is the cumulative number of dead that demonstrates that we have a war on the border.

An estimated 200 to 400 individuals per year ? at least 3,000 people over the past decade ? have died because they tried to find work or reunite with family members who had found jobs in the United States. Every additional weapon used for border control has added to this rising death toll. While the sale of UAVs may be a bonanza for a few local companies, these spy planes will only make already desperate people feel even more beleaguered.

The Mexicans that I know are dismayed by the level of repression and terror that they faced in order to come here. They say that they only came to make a better life for themselves and their loved ones. They also say that they would do it again, for the good reasons already given. Most Americans that I know would probably do the same if unfortunate enough to face similar circumstances. If only those Americans without the sin of benefiting from the labor of these people could cast stones, these immigrants would be welcomed with open arms rather than confronted by a border arms race.


Braulio - 6-28-2003 at 08:44 PM

Dave -

I'm afraid I can't agree with you on this one as far as any nail-head-hitting. In fact the whole piece seems to be pretty poorly written. Maybe it was heavily edited by the UT or something but Mr. Krissman seems to just jump from one theme to another - from drones to Vietnam to Berlin - kind of like some of the rants that we're accustomed to on these very boards.. About the only thing I see that ties this cobblestone editorial together is Mr.K's anti-US bias. I was actually hoping to see an interesting angle or two on the US growers/migrant worker thing but the introduction sucked me in and then didn't deliver. Maybe that was the UT's fault - I don't know.

As much as I hate to admit it I happen to agree on many of his points - especially with regard to drug enforcement, aspects of US immigration policy, and the typical government 's lack of cost/benefit analysis but his whole argument is so embarrassingly weak - for example -

His citing of Berlin as the "best comparison" of the present US-Mexico border situation with that of East/West Germany is ludicrous. In Germany people were being shot by their own countrymen for leaving their country and seeking freedom with their cousins in the West. Besides, the military buildup at that time in the border areas between the two Germanys was far in excess of anything happening in the US . Even the tight border control that Mexico imposes on Guatemala doesn't compare to Germany at that time.

Another example is Mr. K explaining mexican nationals role in the US's drug problem as one of simply businessmen fulfilling a preexisting need. If Mr. K were honest he'd acknowledge that mexican nationals are also involved in trying to increase the market of their products. That is they're actively involved in getting US kids hooked.

I could give other examples but to tell you the truth, agenda-driven folks like Mr. K just plain bore me. It ain't worth it.

Frankly the fact that this was written by a supposed academic (no references to anything to back up his opinions - L - not even ONE) scares the b-Jesus out of me in terms of the quality of thinking and analysis coming out of our universities. But then again - this is the CALIFORNIA educational system.

There sure is a big difference in thinking between science and social science.

Simply another case of half a truth coming out to be a whole lie.

Take care Dave.

Braulio.

Family Guy - 9-12-2003 at 07:29 PM

Maybe I am just totally off base but agree or not, the article seems to make a pretty clear argument:

Perhaps the references to Berlin and a walled off city were a little over the top but certainly not unimaginable considering the trends.

The rest of article makes a very common argument. And that is our affluent society encourges the cross-border drug trade and the influx of illegal immigrants. We want cheap labor and illegal drugs.

The author simply articulates the rising trend of militarizing the border. And it is both the illicit drug trade AND the illegal immigrants that is fueling popular sentiment in the states to INCREASE this militarization. The war on drugs and the war on illegal immigrants is blurred and escalating.

C'mon Braulio...do you really believe "Mexican nationals are actively involved in getting US kids hooked on drugs"?

Maybe being educated by the California university system has made me a little soft between the ears, but at times I have a much harder time following your arguements or "rants" as you refer to others.

I would like to hear more discussion of ideas. You sound very knowledgeable with a knack for turning phrases. Instead of knocking the author, the California university system, and the entire social sciences, share your ideas and help raise the level of discussion on the board.

Who knows, we may actually agree on some things :biggrin:

Margie - 4-23-2004 at 11:11 PM

Frst of all, I believe that we should return to a program much like the Bracero Program, except, of course, this time with human rights guaranteed.

Mexico is rated the third wealthiest Country in the world, as far as personnal wealth. These people pay no taxes, that is why there are no social programs for the Mexican people.The so-calledSocialized Medical system is a joke, have you been to a Mexican Hospital lately? The education system is laughable,
education is only guaranteed until the 6th grade level, after that, you're on your own, except, of course, unless you are wealthy.

Mexico needs to start taking care of her own people, but with blanket corruption, it is doubtful if she ever will. This is one of the reasons why Mexican family units are so strong - they have noone else to depend on.

The drug issue has actually bit Mexico in the ass, if you go to any Ejido, the young people are strung out of cheap and additictive drugs such as Meth. Yes, middle America was the target for this drug, I believe it was the Rodriquez brothers from Guadalajara who actually did a demographic study of the States, and realized that the Arellanos controlled the West and East coasts, and the area was saturated with Grass and Cocaine. So, they hired top scientists to formulate a
super powerful potent and addictive Meth.
The target was middle America and they marketed it just like Diet Pepsi. The formula got out, and now every two-bit
dealer is cooking it up and selling it to the Mexican kids like candy.And, there ain't no Betty Ford clinics!

The drugs need to be decriminalized in the States, and the power taken away from these Murdering hedonist Cartels.
Everybody's in on it, from the guy who drives the boat, to the guy who changes the tires on the truck that transports the stuff - whole communities down here thrive on the drug business, what other work is there?The corruption starts at the lowest levels and works its way up.
The Mexican people need to get their act together, and fight for a more just society,
if that's what they really want and not to be just conspicuous consumers. Our forefathers had to do it, I know we had to march and fight against Vietnam, and now Iraq. Regardless of what you may think, they already are armed, so what's stopping them? No huevos?????


In addition, America needs to sanction detox and treatment centers and educational programs .



[Edited on 4-24-2004 by Margie]

[Edited on 4-24-2004 by Margie]

Margie:

Skeet/Loreto - 4-24-2004 at 02:20 AM

Your Statements are False!


The Mexican People pay Taxes!

The mexican Health system,while not as up to date,is comprised of Excellent doctors!Most trained at the medical University in Mexico City.{american doctors attend for Special Study}

To find the truth of your False Statements I suggest that you go to Cuidad
Constituon located between Loreto BCS and La Paz.there are Three Hospitals staffed by 40 doctors.
go to La Paz where there are many Hospitals an Particulair the Soldiers and Sailors Hospital.

You should also Talk to Dr. Gustov Morillia and his Wife Dr. Thersa Morillia who have spent most of their Lives attending to the children of the Area.They work many long Hours taking care of the many children who fill their Hospital waiting rooms from 6;Am Each Day!

Contact Dr. Rene Hibiff the director of the Hospital General in Constitution.

Margie, you have given False Statements concerning many very Compassionate doctors in Mexico.
SHAME ON YOU!!
You owe the Good doctors of Mexico an Apology!!

You should be "Tarred and Feathered" and runoff of this Board!

Skeet/Loreto

"In God I Trust"

Margie - 4-24-2004 at 12:49 PM

I'll tell ya what, let's go take a tour of the General Hospitals and Social Security Hospitals in TJ and Ensenada, then take a tour of the Private Hospitals in those areas for the wealthy.

Does anyone ever wonder why in front of these Hospitals pouring out into the streets are hundreds of people standing around? These are the relatives of the patients who are there providing services to their families, like food, water, clean bedding, and keeping an eye out, as they simply do not trust the staff and Doctor's!

The runni ng joke in Ensenada is that you go to the Military Hospital to die.

Both my husband and I have had first hand experience in taking our Mexican friends to the Hospital (Social Security - where all the poor people go). Infact, we lost a very good freind of ours, because he was misdiagnosed for years and years, and needed a heart valve replacement surgery. Frustrated, we took him to the Flying Samaritan Clinic in Chapultepec and then to UCSD and got him on a list to have the operation done in the States, since the Mexican Doctors wouldn't do it, and suggested a private Mexican Hospital but the costwas out of everyones reach. Our friend died before
the operation was performed, of a heart attack, he was 20 years old. Tell his family
how great Medical services are down here.

Explain to me then ,why hundreds of Mexican Nationals line up to see the FlyingSamaritans and their staff when they roll into town.

Explain to me then ,why it has been confirmed over and over again by our Mexican friends that in Mexico, if you are poor and have a heart condition or cancer, you might as well cash in your chips, there just is not care available for you.
In addition, we had another friend,poor, who needed an operation for his daughter's leg, and could simply not afford it. A fund was set up and the Gringos paid for it, finally, after the poor girl suffered with this condition all of her young 14 years of life.

Are these just people who fell inbetween the cracks of a system? No, this is the norm!


Regarding taxes, most people avoid them in Mexico, especially the wealthy! The ones that are hit the hardest, are the businesses. One of Fox's objectives which he did not accomplish, was to mandate collecting of taxes so there would be a tax base. Why else is it that Police Officers are only making $25-50 per week, and nothing works down here, and there are little if few social programs and a decent public education system?

I am sure there are dedicated professionals and Loreto sounds like Nirvana compared to the Borderlands.
Perhaps some of those dedicated Professional s should donate some of their time to the more populated areas and give the Flying Samaritans and Doctors without Borders , and Habitat For Humanity a break!!!!!

I have no apologies to make, this is the reality of the situation which needs to be addressed. Maybe you should be tarred and feathered for being so unrealistic and
tribal in your thinking.



[Edited on 4-24-2004 by Margie]

Read it and weep

Margie - 4-25-2004 at 01:22 AM

Here ya go, Loreto:
Mexican Income Tax System:
Mexico and Taxation
www.kpbs.org/fullfocus

Taxation With Representation...sort of
www.kpbs.org/fullfocus

Editorial Mexico
www.equipopueblo.org

Newsweek:Mexico's War Over Taxes
www.keepmedia.com

Third World Debt
personales.igu.net.mx/tapatio

*********************************

Mexico HealthCare System

Poverty and Inequity
www.bancomundial.org

World Report
www.worldreport-ind.com

Latin American Press: Article
www.lapress.org/Article.asp

Workers Struggles
www.wsws.org/articles

World Health Systems
www.ache.org/pubs/friedgaydoschop.cfm

Journal Of IAPAC - Aids In Mexico
www.thebody.com

The Miami Herald-Article
www.miami.com

Guardian - Article
www.guardian.co.uk

*********************************

Skeet/Loreto - 4-25-2004 at 04:59 AM

Not a single word of Truth!

All the usual Drivel of a Person who only has "Spin' Words to inpart on the Unlear ned!

Post your Experience!!!!!!!!

Instead of using the words of newpapers,let us look at your Age and Experience!

Have you ever been in a Hospital?
Have you ever held a Child, in your Arms while waiting as he and his lovely wife,spent 15 Hours a Day taking care of other Children?

have you ever slept on a Beach away from the heat and Bugs,listening to the Moaning of a 30 year old Mother,her Teeth so rotten,she has trouble eating,

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR THE CHILDREN OF MEXICO AND BAJA?

HAVE YOU EVER TAKEN A CHILD TO A DOCTOR FOR TREATMENT OF A WAYWARD EYE,13 YEARS OLD WITH A NEW BABY IN HER ARMS?

HAVE YOU EVER SAT IN A WAITING ROOM IN A MEXICAN HOSPITAL WAITING ON THE MEXICAN DOCTOR TO TELL YOU THAT YOUR HUSBAND IS GOING TO LIVE.

So Let all of the good Doctors of Baja know"What have you done for your Neighbors?

"Stand up to be counted, or Set down and Shut Up"

You are headed the same way as all the "Deanics""Hate filled bunch of small minded People who are destined to Failure!
Age--------------?
Education---------------?
Background Expierance------------?
Number of Hospitals visited-----------?
Locations---------------------?
Time and Date----------------?

"Whence Came You"?

Skeet/Loreto

"In God I Trust"

Margie - 4-25-2004 at 12:42 PM

It's nice to know that you have done so much as your post implies. I have also done my part and given instead of just taking. But I don't think it's productive to grandstand on this.
You seem to miss the whole point on this issue however. If health care was so great for the masses then there wouldn't have been the need for the experiences you mentioned to have happened.
I suggest again you read the references and become more educated on the situation.
Obviously we have a difference of opinion.
It would be great to hear from others on this within the spirit of the forum.

Dave

Skeet/Loreto - 4-25-2004 at 04:32 PM

I read your Post with interest!

One thing that was left out of your very informative Post.

When the Thousands and Thousands of weakmind americans stop using Drugs to escape their Responsibility in Life, there would be no need for the Mexicano to transport Drugs to them.

When you can find an American who will,Drive a Cotton Picker,harvest Tomatoes,Shovel dirt to irrigate a Field,Milk cows 6hours a Day twice a Day,Landscape work in the heat of the Day,Pick Cantalope 10 Hours a Day we may be able to solve the Problem!

Why is it that the rich are blamed for everything? could it be that the Blamers are to lazy to put out the extra time and effort to make money, had rather set around an Chatter "that guy is Rich, he should give me half of his Money so I can go spend it on Drugs,Sex,Rock concerts,Gameboys,new TV's,the latest DVD,the lates SUV., and of course the newest Cell Phone!

'You reap what you Sow"!!

Skeet/Loreto

'In God I Trust"

Margie\

Skeet/Loreto - 4-25-2004 at 04:52 PM

Margie; In Dancin that is called the"Sidestep"

When you tell me of your expierences I will give value to your words!
when you quote Newspapers and other Media sources,they are of no value;
Reason; look at the problems faced with the recent "Liars" new York times , USA today,etc.
Any Hi School Student can match two or three papers and can soon see the use of charged words etc,

Exsample The Fresno Bee

While many of the Media gave coverage to the new Hero Killed in the War.The Bee buired it with a small mini column.
Why/
The Bee is owned by the McClathy Corp. A well know Demorcratic Family.It is very biasis toward the Republican s.

This happens in all of the Media,so do not quote from newpapers, they have to sell Papers not Truth.

The Reality is not on TV, its in the minds and Hearts of the many poor children of Baja and Mexico that could use a Helping hand in stead of indifierence,
I would suggest that you go about 150 miles south to San Quintin and visit the Hovels of the workers {The Little People} in bright colored clothes that start at 4 am work in the fields all day and come off the work Trucks, with smiles on their faces,going home to a small Square of Cinder block to Love, have babies,go to work,drink Beer,Dance, and enjoy life much better that many Americans!!

Skeet/Loreto

"In God I Trust"

Skeet/Loreto - 4-25-2004 at 05:19 PM

Loreto,BCS 1992

On the Night of Feb. 14th my wife and i observed our 10th anniversy,having dinner at the"El Nido".My wife had just arrive to our home after a visit to the States United.she became ill the next day with a stomach Ache.I took her to the small clinic in Loreto, they gave her a shot of Morphine,indicating 'To much food"Of course the Morphine solved all problems for 8 hours. When she Awoke she was in Extreme Pain,so I went by the clinic,got a letter of referral to the "Hospital General" in Ciuidad Constitution{(90 miles}
So in my little red Toyota I proceeded to Villa, arriving at the General Hospital on Sunday Morning, We were received in the Emergency room with care,I was dispatched , with a blood Sample to the Lab. In a short time the Lab.stated that they he had called the hospital directly with the Results and when I returned my wife was being prepared for surgery,two surgeons had been called in for an Operation,as we had never been there, the only americans in the hospital,I questioned the surgeon.Dr. Gustov Morilia, that maybe we should take her to La Paz{More people and bigger hospitals] he then informed me that my wife did not have the time,she only had at the Most 4 Hours to Live!
After a 3 Hour sucessful Operation,on sunday, she walked out of that Hospital one Week Later.

Cost; $61.00

Care:the most compassionate people we have every Met!

Since that time we have been trying to payback for the excellent care received, we have been to other Hospitals,talked to the new interns from Mexico,had them in our Home{Rancho Sonrisa}become friends with other doctors.Been to many areas of very poor People living in and Around this area,giving Jackets to the Cold Kids{Warm Jackets for Cold Kids}.

I have a suggestion:Get away from your hate of the Rich,get out and learn the Mexican People,do something for the children .Maybe ,just maybe you will learn that you may be able to help a child better themselves!

Last Post on this thread! i have to take care of a New Baby goat that just came into this world!

skeet/Loreto
"In God I Trust"

JESSE - 4-25-2004 at 06:01 PM

I am for controlled borders, i think the U.S. needs to close the doors and put some heat on our goverment to put order in its own house.

mr.jack - 4-25-2004 at 10:44 PM

That is a rough call, but you might get your wish sooner than you think.

The Maquiladoras are slowly pulling out, the trend is to go to Asia where there is even cheaper slave labor, which wil leave thousands and thousands of people destitute (hard to believe it can get any worse for them) and out on the streets.

The outcome might turn nasty, and the USA would definity militarize the Border
beyond what exsits in order to curb an exodus.

I am for a vastly improved Bracero System,
until Mexico gets on her feet.

We need to start looking more to a unification of this Hemisphere, I believe someone brought this point up, and realize that we are all in this thing together.

We may not see it in our lifetimes, but Nationalization will become a dinosaur in the future, if there is one.

JESSE - 4-26-2004 at 11:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mr.jack
until Mexico gets on her feet.




Thats wont happen until the Mexican goverment is taken of from its respirator, the U.S.A.

Mexican politicians dont do anything because they dont have too, if the situation gets bad, they know people simply go up north, so they dont have to deal with millions of angry people.

Margie - 4-26-2004 at 01:51 PM

It's not only the USA, Jess, it's The World Bank, Japan and France. Maybe people out there know ofother investors which I am not aware of.

Didn't Mexico try what you are talking about under Card##as? From what I've read, isolationist policy took Mexico back into the Dark Ages, and stunted her growth.

Input, por favor - gotta run and go pay my electric bill!!!!

wow- another uniformed person

baja rooster - 5-3-2004 at 12:38 AM

Margie is going to fight Jesse for that honor.
She states that Mexicans don't pay taxes!!Has she purchased gasoline lately?
The taxes are built in just like here in the US, only more so. For years gas was always cheaper in Mexico ,than here. Now it is around $2.40 /gallon. No taxes!!Huh?

wilderone - 5-3-2004 at 09:12 AM

Sales tax isn't the same as income tax. And where do you think all that gasoline "tax" is going, since Pemex in a monopoly?

TAXES

Margie - 5-3-2004 at 11:36 AM

Gracias, Widlerone.

Little Red Rooster, I was referring to income tax. The statistics show that 80%
of the Mexican population do not pay them.(You know, the ones a coun try is supposed to use for infrastructure, medical care, education....) The KPBS article covers it all.

'If you see my little red rooster, please tell him to come back home...if you seeee my little red rooster, pleaseeese tell him to come back home...'
Rolling Stones, circa '60's

*********************************
Jesse, I know you are probably really busy, but when you have time, could you address the isolationist question ? Thanks.

*********************************


[Edited on 5-3-2004 by Margie]

JESSE - 5-3-2004 at 01:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by baja rooster
Margie is going to fight Jesse for that honor.
She states that Mexicans don't pay taxes!!Has she purchased gasoline lately?
The taxes are built in just like here in the US, only more so. For years gas was always cheaper in Mexico ,than here. Now it is around $2.40 /gallon. No taxes!!Huh?


We Mexicans do pay some taxes, but not like we should, i believe Mexico has one of the lowest tax collection percentages in this hemisphere, something like 12% of GDP, wich is far lower than Argentina and Brazil, and even more than the U.S. and Canada.

I for example, could easily pay more taxes, but i refuse to do it until i see some accountabilty from my goverment ( thats a big wish), so they ain't getting a single more dime if i keep seeing the way they waste my money away in stupidity and corruption.

JESSE - 5-3-2004 at 01:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Margie
It's not only the USA, Jess, it's The World Bank, Japan and France. Maybe people out there know ofother investors which I am not aware of.

Didn't Mexico try what you are talking about under Card##as? From what I've read, isolationist policy took Mexico back into the Dark Ages, and stunted her growth.

Input, por favor - gotta run and go pay my electric bill!!!!


I don't think Mexico should isolate, that obviously doesn't work, but i do think that the Mexican goverment uses both the U.S. and Pemex as their own personal cash box and pressure release valve, i am all for trade and integration, but the Mexican goverment is not doing that, they are living and enjoying life from Pemex taxes, and enjoying " social tranquility" because the millions of angry and disapointed people that should be screaming at them are crossing over to work in the U.S.

Margie - 5-3-2004 at 09:18 PM

Okay, thank you Jesse.