BajaNomad - Drought update

Drought update

Osprey - 5-22-2012 at 08:56 AM

Drought Update May 2012

Not good news. Meteorologists say this year the Southern Pacific will be a neutral La Niña, El Niño year --- so one might say we have a 50/50 chance of a wet one coming close enough to help us. The cape region has not seen a drop of rain from storms since hurricanes John, Miriam and Paul in the summer of 2006 blessed us with a little.

I just talked to some people who live where the water we drink comes from, San Dionysio canyon. The situation there is dire because the stream has dried up and now the many ranchos in the canyon must haul in household water while their animals grow weak and die. For the very first time any of them can remember, the government in Santiago is placing large portable water tanks near the main canyon road to accommodate the ranchos.

Mountain people are a suspicious lot and to add to their many fears now the same canyon is experiencing unusually high numbers of temblors (26 in one day and some aftershocks strong enough to knock things around in their kitchens, frighten the mascots and the children). There is but one dirt road up the canyon to the ranchos and falling rocks now choke the road almost daily. So the mountain people see the drought very clearly and as the hurricane season progresses we will be able to hear their prayers way down here in the flats.

Perhaps geologists could tell us if the drought is causing the earthquakes because it is changing the strata as the aquifers dry up and leave behind empty underground pockets.

I don’t think this kind of crisis is one where the people can pay more to get more. It won’t be a matter of cost – it could be a matter of going way down deep with the hopes that the next decades or centuries will be wetter than ever and we can recharge the precious dinosaur water with a little new stuff. The irony is that salvation comes at another high price – we’ll be flooded with more water than we can use, be bounced around by the wind while we watch it break all our stuff. Lots of laughing to keep from crying.

Iflyfish - 5-22-2012 at 09:04 AM

Disconcerting and potentially devastating for this already parched and arid desert. Are we reduced to prayer? Meanwhile huge developments are in progress and in the planning for this sensitive ecosystem. Sometimes I am glad I am on the second half of my life. Sic transit gloria mundi as the Romans said it. Both nature and human nature can be generative or destructive mostly both. I pray for rain and wish away the hurricanes and short sighted developers.

Iflyfish

vandy - 5-22-2012 at 09:34 AM

To make matters even more fun, the well pump that supplies (at least) Agua Caliente and El Chorro just died around 8AM today.

It´ll take about 5 days to fix. Last time it took two weeks and OOSAPAS trucked water to the neighborhoods.

Still water in El Chorro canyon, but water rights arguments are heating up among the people who share the irrigation ditches. The govt plans on replacing the ditches with pipelines...so "who gets a valve?¨" is the coming question...

DavidE - 5-22-2012 at 10:10 AM

A couple of weeks ago I made a comment about having enough wind power on the Pacific coast to generate enough electricity for Los Angeles. Dreaming of course, but a huge wind farm could generate enough power to provide more water than Baja California Sur could ever want or need. Farms in Constitución would flourish, same for Baja California around San Quintín. The technology can be used to remove the "C" from CO2 and make carbon fiber building materials, materials with an "R" thermal value so high a 5,000 BTU air conditioner would dehumidify an entire home. You can bet LED lamps are coming that use 95% less energy than incandescent. I gave my housekeeper an armful of CFL's to replace the incandescent's in her home. Solar panels are coming that will cost basically a dollar per watt, and lithium technology is improving and lessening the price of batteries that hold ten times the energy of lead acid and can be constantly discharged all the way to zero without damage.

Our climate is not changing solely because of man. It has been swinging from hot to cold, from wet to dry for hundreds of thousands of years. But in my opinion just carelessly releasing greenhouse gasses during a climate change for the warmer makes about as much sense as tossing buckets of gasoline on a huge forest fire. Carbon extraction from CO2....carbon fiber construction. It doesn't rust, or corrode, weighs a tiny that of fraction of steel or aluminum, is unbelievably strong, and taking /Carbon out of CO2 leaves what molecule behind.....:-)

Osprey - 5-22-2012 at 10:36 AM

Where do the wind turbines get the water for the crops? Maybe I don't even know how to couch the question. How about "When the turbines turn, pushed around by the wind, does water come out the bottom?"

David E, I'm new at this science stuff so bear with me.

Barry A. - 5-22-2012 at 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Where do the wind turbines get the water for the crops? Maybe I don't even know how to couch the question. How about "When the turbines turn, pushed around by the wind, does water come out the bottom?"

David E, I'm new at this science stuff so bear with me.

Good point, DavidE.

(energy drives de-sal plants, water from the ocean, is what I think DavidE means)

Barry

motoged - 5-22-2012 at 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
.. You can bet LED lamps are coming that use 95% less energy than incandescent. I gave my housekeeper an armful of CFL's to replace the incandescent's in her home. ....

Those CFL's are conceptually great and practically poor....loaded with mercury and some other major downsides...

LED's ....YAY....the better alternative :saint:

Cypress - 5-22-2012 at 11:07 AM

What happens when the water's gone? Ask the Anasazi.

Barry A. - 5-22-2012 at 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
What happens when the water's gone? Ask the Anasazi.

The "Anasazi" (the ancient one's) never got the "de-sal" concept nailed down right, but the big question I have always had was why they just did not move down to the shores of Lake Powell???? OR, utilize the vast coal reserves under their feet to generate electricity to POWER their "de-Sal" plants. :?:

These are the questions that just haunt me---------

barry

Cypress - 5-22-2012 at 12:03 PM

Guess they were just too primitive to adjust. :light:

[Edited on 5/22/2012 by Cypress]

Osprey - 5-22-2012 at 12:21 PM

All the while this problem in Baja Sur has been building, while we have been using water without thinking about the consequences, we were also doing some other stuff:

We were building dams in canyons in the mountains. The reservoirs natually fill up with sand/mud -- hate when that happens because it just takes all day to dig them out with humongous machines only to fill up again and again.

We captured any running water and piped it to the nearest place that was running low, had the most money or could pay the biggest bribe.

We bought the cheapest submersible pumps (vs above ground) which have to be replaced each time the water table falls or a storm fills the wells with rocks/sand.

We sold cheap water to farmers growing tomatoes/alfalfa/cotton -- 650,000 gallons for one season's crop of tomatoes per acre.

Let's see, what else .........

Cypress - 5-22-2012 at 12:42 PM

Oops! Looks like the well is running dry!

DavidE - 5-22-2012 at 12:51 PM

Osprey, the soil that washes down and plugs the bottom of the reservoir is silt and mixed with esterico, cow manure, it produces some of the finest additives I've ever encountered to mix with the ubiquitous sand down here. It is after all topsoil, albeit rather sparse in plant life compost. But, mixed with esterico and sand, it is magic.

Yes, I meant R/O or even steam distillation to obtain fresh water. There are and have been R/O units on the market that yield one gallon of DISTILLED water for every 120 watt hours of energy. As some of the larger windmills produce 60 to 100,000 watts, I think there is enough seawater and wind to make an awful lot of water. The wind generator manufacture and R/O manufacturing sectors can blossom but of course the CEO's and Chairman's cannot have hundred million dollar a year salaries, plus satisfy hordes of investors greedy for 10% annual dividends, and make the products affordable to the world.

There is enough geothermal energy trapped beneath las tres virgenes to steam distill quadrillions of acre feet of fresh water.

Sinks and shower drains should be replumbed to the garden.

Just Dreaming

Barry A. - 5-22-2012 at 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
Osprey, the soil that washes down and plugs the bottom of the reservoir is silt and mixed with esterico, cow manure, it produces some of the finest additives I've ever encountered to mix with the ubiquitous sand down here. It is after all topsoil, albeit rather sparse in plant life compost. But, mixed with esterico and sand, it is magic.

Yes, I meant R/O or even steam distillation to obtain fresh water. There are and have been R/O units on the market that yield one gallon of DISTILLED water for every 120 watt hours of energy. As some of the larger windmills produce 60 to 100,000 watts, I think there is enough seawater and wind to make an awful lot of water. The wind generator manufacture and R/O manufacturing sectors can blossom but of course the CEO's and Chairman's cannot have hundred million dollar a year salaries, plus satisfy hordes of investors greedy for 10% annual dividends, and make the products affordable to the world.

There is enough geothermal energy trapped beneath las tres virgenes to steam distill quadrillions of acre feet of fresh water.

Sinks and shower drains should be replumbed to the garden.

Just Dreaming

I need to know where I can get those "10%" dividends that you speak of, DavidE (Canadian Energy Trusts???).

There are a lot of problems to be worked out in GeoThermal, as you probably know. We have been doing GeoThermal for many many years now, and still the caustic liquids they are working with take their toll on the plumbing, and the maintenance/ replacement rate is incredibly expensive.

But, you are right, and we need to keep it up and solve these problems for long-term solutions to energy-------if there is a way, the private sector will find it, IMO. Govt. subsidies????well, not too promising, in my view, as less incentive for actual success when it is not your investment that is on the line.

Barry

Skipjack Joe - 5-22-2012 at 01:11 PM

I'm not thrilled about wind power because it mars the landscape. And yes, that is important to all - not just the "tree huggers". That collection of windmills on the way to Palm Springs are "uglier than sin".

DavidE - 5-22-2012 at 02:14 PM

The best industry incentive is tax relief based on performance guarantees, open to public scrutiny. No tickee no washee.

Wind farms do not have to be placed outside your living room picture window. There are such things as access roads, and high voltage line transmission. People have to start actually thinking about things like aesthetics and logistics. If it were desired, a fiftyfoot diameter pipeline could be plumbed from the great northwet and canada, which would yield so much water it could turn southern california, arizona, and the baja californias into a lake. Everything is now a commodity. Everything is now a tool used for manipulation, for power, prestige, politics, and above all money.

Today's "have's" are going to find out sooner or later that they are just another feedstock for the very few "Have It All's" A rude lesson in the true agenda of trickle down economics.

[Edited on 5-22-2012 by DavidE]

Barry A. - 5-22-2012 at 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
The best industry incentive is tax relief based on performance guarantees, open to public scrutiny. No tickee no washee.

Wind farms do not have to be placed outside your living room picture window. There are such things as access roads, and high voltage line transmission. People have to start actually thinking about things like aesthetics and logistics. If it were desired, a fiftyfoot diameter pipeline could be plumbed from the great northwet and canada, which would yield so much water it could turn southern california, arizona, and the baja californias into a lake. Everything is now a commodity. Everything is now a tool used for manipulation, for power, prestige, politics, and above all money.

Today's "have's" are going to find out sooner or later that they are just another feedstock for the very few "Have It All's" A rude lesson in the true agenda of trickle down economics.

[Edited on 5-22-2012 by DavidE]

Other than your last paragraph, I heartily agree with you, DavidE. I fully intend to continue participateing in the "trickle-down" phenomena (sp?) as I have done for over 50 years. Successful investing is not for the faint of heart, and there is "risk" involved if you want to make some money, but that is why you are paid well-------and get tax breaks-------for the "risks" that you take.

As for the wind towers------it's all a matter of perspective. View-sheds are highly over-rated, IMO, and many that have incredible "view-sheds" tell me that after a while they don't even look at them, take them for granted, and often leave their shades drawn shut. To me the towers are a thing of beauty in themselves, but we need to quiet them down (already being done) and use verticle-axis technology (perhaps?) so as not to kill bird life. I have lived for years within the sight of major "towers" (the high voltage type) and you soon don't even notice them. I see the towers in the pass west of Palm Springs and think-------"that is the future" and that gives me a shiver up and down my leg, just like Cris Mathew's of HARD BALL got when Obama spoke back in 2008. (Well, that is an exageration, perhaps). But seriously, when you think of what the "towers" are accomplishing, it makes them a lot more visually palatable, I believe. I totally support "wind power".

Now, lets get on with the pipelines, too--------ALL types of "pipelines", and that will "trickle down" into my (and millions of others) portfolios and make us more comfortable than we are now. After all, we are all in this together. :spingrin:

Barry

Skipjack Joe - 5-22-2012 at 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

I see the towers in the pass west of Palm Springs and think-------"that is the future" and that gives me a shiver up and down my leg....

Barry

Given the career and profession you chose and worked a lifetime, to me you are an enigma.

Iflyfish - 5-22-2012 at 06:40 PM

I recall an ecologist guy once saying that one must decide who is the change agent in a situation like this. Where is the point where one can have the greatest impact? Is it the local guy sitting on his deck without an ice cube? Is it mothers who don't have water to wash their clothes? Is it the developer whose project will go belly up when the water is gone.The locals en mass rising up in protest? Lots of time can be wasted tilting at windmills that are not connected to grinding stones. Nimodo you might hear those who will not contribute to the solution say.

I once spent some time with Helen Caldicott, M.D. an Australian Pediatrician who discovered strontium 90 in mothers milk in her country. The source of the radioactive isotopes was from French above ground nuclear testing on islands and atolls where the prevailing winds dusted Australia on a regular basis with the fallout.

Caldicott talked to the press, lobbied legislators, generally raised hell and nothing happened. Then the good doctor rallied the local Longshoremen against the French by telling them that the testing would ruin their testicles. Well, those "little Frenchies" got the Longshoremen upset enough that they boycotted all French shipping into and out of Australia. The French decided to stop their bomb testing on the islands and atolls. End of story. Start of Physicians for Social Responsibility.

Now what is the moral of this story.....besides the antipathy of the Aussies against the French....and the Australians concern about their family jewels.....well, like the story of the Steam Fitter who is hired to fix the broken steam system in a factory, he looks at the pipes and valves for a few minutes and then hits a valve with his hammer. Vola! (pardon my French), the factory springs into motion again. The Foreman is very pleased and asks the Steam fitter for his bill. The Steam Fitter hands him a bill for $100. The Foreman is outraged, "$100 for hitting a valve?! Give me an itemized bill". The Steam Fitter obliged with the following bill:
Item 1, hitting a valve $5.00.
Item 2, Knowing which valve to hit $95.

I had a point to make when I started this thing, of this I am sure. Anyone have any idea which valve to hit in Baja Sur to get the water problem solved?

Iflyfishwithleakymetaphors

DavidE - 5-22-2012 at 06:54 PM

Sadly, right now, there are no valves, only finite quantities of water deep down, hidden when wooly mammoths roamed the earth.

Skipjack Joe - 5-22-2012 at 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish

I had a point to make when I started this thing, of this I am sure. Anyone have any idea which valve to hit in Baja Sur to get the water problem solved?

Iflyfishwithleakymetaphors

A. Remove all golf courses. If you choose to live in the desert don't try to recreate a northern environment (scotland). No fountains, tambien.

B. It seems to me that windmills are inefficient. The wind hits the propeller and continues past it. Thus a small fraction of the energy available is used by each windmill. To use it fully you should end up with still air on the other side. And if you could achieve that you wouldn't have to have rows and rows of windmills abreast of one another. No need to draw your curtain. I'm talking off the top of my head because I actually know very little of the technology.

Osprey - 5-23-2012 at 06:31 AM

If I had my say you would all be on our local water board. (Then we could get down with some serious water-boarding). From all the ideas would flow some workable solutions to our water woes.

In the canyon above the little village of Boca de la Sierra (not far from here) there is a dam (which fills up with silt/mud like the others) but locals 100 years ago built a one kilometer aquaduct that still serves the people, their stock and their crops of albahaca, tomates and mangos. One might ask "why not do that in the other canyons?".

aguaduct.JPG - 47kB

Iflyfish - 5-23-2012 at 07:32 AM

"why not do that in the other canyons?".

Good question. I wonder how much water is lost to evaporation in this open aquaduct?

Iflyfish

Osprey - 5-23-2012 at 08:03 AM

Hardly any. It outruns it.

Barry A. - 5-23-2012 at 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

I see the towers in the pass west of Palm Springs and think-------"that is the future" and that gives me a shiver up and down my leg....

Barry

Given the career and profession you chose and worked a lifetime, to me you are an enigma.

Not really, SkipJack---------there are places that need to be preserved forever, and others that need to be sacrificed or compromised for progress and the survival of mankind, I believe. Yes, we lived in some of the most beautful places on earth (Grand Canyon, Glacier N. Pk, Dinosaur N. Mon, Cape Hatteras and Nags Head, N.C., etc., etc.) and it was at those places that we realized that WE were the instrusion (all our houses were within the Parks). But when we moved to the Imperial Valley we realized that beauty is your interpretation of what you are looking at-------we loved the Imperial Valley just as much as the Parks, but certainly it was a different type of beauty------the beauty of man's endeavors. It's all good!!!!

Barry

Bajatripper - 5-23-2012 at 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
there is "risk" involved if you want to make some money, but that is why you are paid well-------and get tax breaks-------for the "risks" that you take.
Barry

Yeah, we all saw some of that "risk" in action in the last several years when we the taxpayers paid to bail out the "risk takers."

As they say, privatize the profits and socialize the loses. Some "free market" that is.

Bajatripper - 5-23-2012 at 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
there is "risk" involved if you want to make some money, but that is why you are paid well-------and get tax breaks-------for the "risks" that you take.
Barry

David K - 5-23-2012 at 08:47 AM

...and those bailouts were very wrong Steve.

DavidE - 5-23-2012 at 09:07 AM

On a day with a 30 mph wind, you can light a BIC behind the blades of a wind generator. The losses are in electromechanical mechanisms, and within the turbine and generator itself. A 100 ampere automobile alternator requires 4.4 horsepower @ full rated output. Fourteen hundred watts. There are 746 watts = one horsepower at 1.0 pf.

Barry A. - 5-23-2012 at 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
...and those bailouts were very wrong Steve.

AMEN, David.

Barry

Skipjack Joe - 5-23-2012 at 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

I see the towers in the pass west of Palm Springs and think-------"that is the future" and that gives me a shiver up and down my leg....

Barry

Given the career and profession you chose and worked a lifetime, to me you are an enigma.

So there was a change in values.

The high rises of New York City are truly beautiful, as is SF's skyline when viewed from Treasure Island. Most of man's beauty mimics the natural world. That's what made Frank Lloyd Wright exceptional. But neither should replace the other. And certainly capitalism shouldn't be the criteria as to when and what to change.

Barry A. - 5-23-2012 at 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

I see the towers in the pass west of Palm Springs and think-------"that is the future" and that gives me a shiver up and down my leg....

Barry

Given the career and profession you chose and worked a lifetime, to me you are an enigma.

I totally agree with most of that!!! But, I don't have any problems with "Capitolism", so am not offended when I see some of the visual effects of Corp. enterprise. In fact, when we visit our Daughter & Family in western Harriman, Utah (S. of Salt Lake City) and sit on her front lawn in the early morning, or evening, almost the entire viewscape is the BINGHAM CANYON COPPER MINE, and the tailings with all their color are simply grand-----looks like Park-Like view to us (really).

What I really brand as ugly are peoples homes and yards that have been let go, and piles of junk and trash are scattered around---------THAT is offensive to me, and I can't understand why the folks that live there have absolutely no pride in the view they present to others and their neighbors, let alone to themselves!!!

Barry

Cypress - 5-23-2012 at 12:47 PM

Barry A. Excellent!!!

gnukid - 5-23-2012 at 02:09 PM

Wind power requires an equivalent backup traditional power system to function when the wind does not. Since there are times when no wind blows the reliability is unpredictable, wind is among the most unreliable and costly power sources. People could get used to only using power when the wind blows or they require a second source.

Wind power requires a grid and storing infrastructure to serve it's users, usually this requires batteries and inverters and cabling and so forth. The cost of producing wind power and the storage grid is costly in addition to the high costs if use.

Therefore, wind power is unreliable as a constant source of power and is expensive to create, manage and maintain compared to coal/gas. So in every case with wind power there is a complimentary coal/gas power plant required resulting in zero overall energy savings and in fact double the infrastructure and double the costs and more waste. People seem to miss the obvious cost and reliability problems with wind and solar power as solutions for mass public. Don't get hoodwinked by eco-techno-politicians who promote the bad deal of wind power, it is the most expensive source of energy available to our economy and is not saving energy or the environment.

Subsidies aren't free either, whether you believe that or not, the money for subsidies to wind and solar comes from your budget. Wind and solar subsidies are paid for by you and your neighbors. Promoters of wind power include manufacturers, infrastructure companies, maintenance companies and so forth, while in fact wind power is among the most wasteful and expensive solutions, not to mention the visual pollution and loss of open space and danger to animals and birds in the vicinity.

Building wind power off shore or high in the sky is even more expensive to build and maintain than using land based wind power.

http://windpowerfacts.info/

[Edited on 5-23-2012 by gnukid]

Barry A. - 5-23-2012 at 03:36 PM

Gnukid's post may explain why Boone Pickens is not pushing "wind power" any longer?!?!?!?!!? Pretty grim report, I must say. I have a good friends kid who has invested his entire education in wind power, and has started a Company devoted to same----------sounds like he is doomed from the git-go!?!?!?!?!?

Bummer!!!!

Barry

Skipjack Joe - 5-23-2012 at 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

I totally agree with most of that!!! But, I don't have any problems with "Capitolism", so am not offended when I see some of the visual effects of Corp. enterprise. In fact, when we visit our Daughter & Family in western Harriman, Utah (S. of Salt Lake City) and sit on her front lawn in the early morning, or evening, almost the entire viewscape is the BINGHAM CANYON COPPER MINE, and the tailings with all their color are simply grand-----looks like Park-Like view to us (really).

Barry

No, Barry, we have little in common.

To me your above quote is akin to admiring to bomb dropped on Hiroshima and exalting over it's shape and colors.

Barry A. - 5-23-2012 at 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

No, Barry, we have little in common.

To me your above quote is akin to admiring to bomb dropped on Hiroshima and exalting over it's shape and colors.

To each his own, for sure. (I like exploring old Ghost towns in NV, too)

Barry

David K - 5-23-2012 at 06:15 PM

Half of what's fun to visit in Baja are the things man has done there: Old Mines, Mission sites, El Camino Real...

Osprey - 5-23-2012 at 06:48 PM

Boy, this could lead to some juicy posts on a very deep level. Are we close to examining how we see ourselves on the planet? Great new talking point: "Yosemite kind of beauty in NYC"

I'll go first: Frank Lloyd Wrong. I would much rather have experienced the planet (all of it) in its natural state than at any time after man could have built henges and lines and make-believe mountains.

Anybody see something else?

ncampion - 5-23-2012 at 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Boy, this could lead to some juicy posts on a very deep level. Are we close to examining how we see ourselves on the planet? Great new talking point: "Yosemite kind of beauty in NYC"

I'll go first: Frank Lloyd Wrong. I would much rather have experienced the planet (all of it) in its natural state than at any time after man could have built henges and lines and make-believe mountains.

Anybody see something else?

Don't mean to burst your bubble, but without all these "man-made" things, none of us could "experience" the world in ti's "natural state" for more than a few weeks at best.

.

Barry A. - 5-23-2012 at 09:58 PM

Hong Kong at night is the most awesome sight I have ever seen-----------and easily compares with Half Dome.

Barry

Mostar Bridge

Skipjack Joe - 5-24-2012 at 03:41 AM

The most beautiful bridge in the world.

Golden Gate Bridge?
Brooklyn Bridge?
Sydney Harbor Bridge?

For me it's this 500 year old bridge built by the Ottomans.

Puente_de_Mostar.jpg - 45kB

Frank Lloy Wrong

Skipjack Joe - 5-24-2012 at 04:15 AM

A design that mimics and complements it's environment.

Pennsylvania-Fallingwater-exterior.jpg - 45kB

Iflyfish - 5-24-2012 at 07:40 AM

gnukid

"Wind power requires a grid and storing infrastructure to serve it's users"

Case in point, Oregon, which has the dams on the Columbia River as it's primary electric resource. Oregon also has areas with reliable winds and major wind farms. One of the big problems as you so clearly stated is that there is not enough capacity in the grid to handle the excess energy generated by the wind fields so the energy is often left offline as the hydro-power trumps the irregular wind power. The Bonneville, The Dalles and John Day Dams have mammoth generators, power-stations, trunk lines etc. The scale of these systems is massive and it boggles the mind to think of the costs that it would take to replace this system with one that includes batteries, converters. larger trunk lines etc., just for starters.

There is unfortunately no free lunch when it comes to power.

Iflyfishwithaledflashlightbuiltintomyduckbillcap

Barry A. - 5-24-2012 at 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
The most beautiful bridge in the world.

Golden Gate Bridge?
Brooklyn Bridge?
Sydney Harbor Bridge?

For me it's this 500 year old bridge built by the Ottomans.

That bridge is gorgeoue, SkipJack, so you see we DO have at least 'something' in common. My point is that I find it much more enjoyable to see "beauty" where I find it, regardless of it's source, and that includes many man-made things--------I guess I am a pragmatist, and would rather see good than bad, and I try to make the best of things that I think are unavoidable.

As to Iflyfish's comments about windpower versus hydro in Oregon------------why would we have to change the hydro just because we also want to include wind power? Would we not just somehow incorporate wind with water, and not even think about replaceing hydro? Perhaps I missed something?

Barry

Bajatripper - 5-24-2012 at 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
The most beautiful bridge in the world.

Golden Gate Bridge?
Brooklyn Bridge?
Sydney Harbor Bridge?

For me it's this 500 year old bridge built by the Ottomans.

Beautiful bridge, Jack.

That would be a bridge built by the Ottomans 500 years ago using technology invented by the Romans 2500 years ago.

Skipjack Joe - 5-24-2012 at 08:31 AM

The difference is that you have subjugated beauty to your socio/economic ideology. Anything that turns a profit is by definition beautiful. A nuclear power plant, no matter how it looks, is a thing of beauty. A pit in the earth is the same.

It's the same mindset that drove Rockerfeller to destroy Diego Rivera's mural in the 50's. Somewhere in this giant mural there was a portrait of Lenin (painted intentionally). The mural lost all of it's beauty to a man who hated communism and he had the mural destroyed. I suppose if you can destroy something like that then you never loved it to begin with and your reasons for having it painted were wrong. Diego Rivera, however, was greatly pained by this destruction and it was not due to his devotion to communism.

Those wind farms are a blight to the landscape. Nobody should have to draw curtains. Telephone lines are the same but to a smaller degree. Dams, on the other hand, are things of beauty.

Skipjack Joe - 5-24-2012 at 08:48 AM

You wrote earlier that what really bothers you is trash left on open land by others. To me these windmills are visual trash on a mountain.

Each windmill by itself is attractive. But placed on a mountain crest it is visually destructive. That was the point of the images I posted. Those homes and bridges were built to be in harmony with their environment. Their own beauty adds to the environment - not subtracts.

Guess what those golf courses do to baja, except bring in money? Actually baja afficionados don't consider cabo to be baja any longer. And why?

gnukid - 5-24-2012 at 09:06 AM

Each windmill requires a maintenance road, support power, maintenance crew, spare parts and produces waste and blight from this maintenance.

Studies have concluded that wind mill parks reduces tourism, scenic enjoyment and people report a reduced desire to visit the location hurting the economy in the region.

There was a seminar yesterday in Chicago discussing these issues at the ICCC. There is video of the speakers, physicists and economists discussing the absurdity of selling wind power as good for the environment.

Mind you I am not against wind power, I have been exploring it and experimenting and follow Makani Wind Power experiments closely.

When wind power is employed there is a great humming sound that is really irritating as it fluctuates. zwww-zww-zwwwww

Barry A. - 5-24-2012 at 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Each windmill requires a maintenance road, support power, maintenance crew, spare parts and produces waste and blight from this maintenance.

Studies have concluded that wind mill parks reduces tourism, scenic enjoyment and people report a reduced desire to visit the location hurting the economy in the region.

There was a seminar yesterday in Chicago discussing these issues at the ICCC. There is video of the speakers, physicists and economists discussing the absurdity of selling wind power as good for the environment.

Mind you I am not against wind power, I have been exploring it and experimenting and follow Makani Wind Power experiments closely.

When wind power is employed there is a great humming sound that is really irritating as it fluctuates. zwww-zww-zwwwww

Sauer Energy's "verticle turbines" addresses that irritating noise, and has mostly solved it-------less noise, and the stresses on the windmill itself are vastly reduced.

I (we?) choose what I (we?) think is beautiful or ugly--------it is not spontaneous, I don't believe. I submit that this perception of beauty and ugly is a product of predisposition to what we like and approve of, and what we don't like or approve of---------a mental choice.

Barry

Cypress - 5-24-2012 at 10:56 AM

Verticle turbines are an improvement over the old windmill type.

1bobo - 5-24-2012 at 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
The most beautiful bridge in the world.

Golden Gate Bridge?
Brooklyn Bridge?
Sydney Harbor Bridge?

For me it's this 500 year old bridge built by the Ottomans.

Destroyed in 1993 during the Serbian war. The rebuild was done according to aesthetics rather than lowest bid for a span, apparently.

WATER

captkw - 5-24-2012 at 08:56 PM

As someone that has been chaseing the fresh water in B.C.S. since 77 and was more than likely the frist gringo to discover the waterfall's near el charro !! watching the golf courses and other water wasters come into the area has been a b-tch!! and also the fed well's up by constatution,that the local's have have shared with me many year's ago that they had a affect on the water table to say the least !! I do not have the answer,,but can tell you that last season (winter) cow's were dieing and the creek was the lowest that I have seen in my lifetime and the serria la laguna need's some rain !! BAD !! and not all at once..and is way past critacal stage...La paz get's it's water from "good woman" res. up the hill toward's La venntanna and don't know it's current level,,but I'm assumeimg it's LOW !!

Iflyfish - 5-24-2012 at 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
The most beautiful bridge in the world.

Golden Gate Bridge?
Brooklyn Bridge?
Sydney Harbor Bridge?

For me it's this 500 year old bridge built by the Ottomans.

Oregon has brought Wind Turbines on line with the hydro-power from the dams. The problem is that the existing Power Grid cannot handle the increased capacity so the Wind Farms are often off-line and therefore they are not able to be used in either a consistent nor predictable way hence they are losing money. In order for Wind Power to be profitable there would need to be a new Power Grid and in this economy though a wonderful idea, it is not feasible.

Iflyfishinthedark

Skipjack Joe - 5-24-2012 at 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish

Oregon has brought Wind Turbines on line with the hydro-power from the dams. The problem is that the existing Power Grid cannot handle the increased capacity so the Wind Farms are often off-line and therefore they are not able to be used in either a consistent nor predictable way hence they are losing money. In order for Wind Power to be profitable there would need to be a new Power Grid and in this economy though a wonderful idea, it is not feasible.

Iflyfishinthedark

That's an interesting problem that needs to be solved because all energy derived from the sun will have same problem. Here are some thoughts:

a. Modify the grid so that the derived energy is sent to the area that needs it and when there is no wind the hydro energy is sent to where the wind's energy is absent.

b. Since the wind and solar energy is variable and hydro energy is available at will the hydro energy should be subordinate and turned on and off as needed (sounds unrealistic actually).

c. Electrical energy storage. These grids seem to only be capable on real time energy. That's really restrictive. There needs to be a way to save energy and use it as needed. It's just like damming a river and releasing water as needed. An impoundment is like a battery.

I'm sure all of this has been thought out by now.