BajaNomad

Wondering

Baja Bernie - 10-15-2004 at 05:22 PM

Mexicans aren't all that great.

JR posted this thread way back on The 7th of October. I have read it at least a dozen times and in most cases I have come away saddened and confused.
As you can tell by reading either of my books or just talking to me you will know that I have been in love with the Mexican Culture and its people for over 40 years.
JR really enjoys throwing things on the net with the idea of making people think. Well that is what I have been doing for the past two weeks plus.

Lu Ann and I headed down to Baja to celebrate our 49th?that is where we have celebrated 40 of our 49 anniversaries.

As usual I do my clearest thinking as the surf tugs at my legs and the wind brushes my hair.

Thinking about JR?s ?Humans? really became painful for me because it really caused me to study my biases in favor of the Mexican nuclear family I have always had a strong preference in favor of them over the more loosely knit American family. I was suddenly confronted with a bunch of questions that I am sure a few of you other old timers have had over the years.

(1) For over 40 years I have been supporting orphanages here in Baja---Where do all of these kids keep coming from?
(2) Why do so many of my Mexican friends have more that one family. Just this week I was told about one of my friends who is married to a lady in Ensenada, is shacking up with a 16 year old the mother of his kids in the same city, and that he has recently started living part-time with a 15 year old girl and her family in La Mision. I really like this guy but how can he properly support three families on about one hundred to one-twenty five dollars a week.
(3) Then there is the Mexican family I have known for many years. Their 16-year-old daughter got pregnant and moved to La Paz with her new ?husbands? family. After the first kid she got a message to her mom and dad that she was being kept in chains and treated like a slave by her ?husband? and his mother. Her parents? response, ?she is a woman now and belongs to her husband.? After her second child was born she was rescued by a Canadian fisherman and returned to her family in the La Mision area. Two great kids and their grandfather makes a reasonable father to both of them..
(4) And then there is the common understanding among many Mexican women that if their husbands take off for the states that there is very little likely hood that they will ever return to fulfill their duties to their family in Mexico?because they have created new ones in the states.
(5) This one has always peeed me off?why is it perfectly okay for a Mexican man to leave a family and flee back into Mexico at the slightest difficulty. OR do the same thing in reverse.
(6) Why is it that married Mexican woman living in the states will tell you (if you will listen) that they are constantly battling with their husbands because the guy wants to haul them back to the country that makes the head of the family its lord and master. The women want no part in losing the protection they are afforded in the U.S.

Love the country, the culture, and its people ?but recognize that they are truly only humans just as are those people living in other parts of the world including the United States.

JR I wish you had no started this thread because you have caused me to leave my ?little bit of paradise? and face the reality that I have denied for so long.

Bernie

Bernie my friend

jrbaja - 10-15-2004 at 09:04 PM

Whatever has happened/is happening to change what once was, is just plain tomfoolery to not discuss it, all points of view on it, and deal with it the best we can rather than pretend it isn't happening.:light:
Otherwise known as having a "boca grande" I suppose!:lol:

surfer jim - 10-15-2004 at 11:27 PM

Lots of things to think about there...but on the advice of my lawyer I shall remain "No Comment".....

Mexitron - 10-16-2004 at 10:00 AM

Interesting thoughts Bernie......yep, we're all human.

Very Good Bernie!

Skeet/Loreto - 10-16-2004 at 12:22 PM

Excellent Words from the heart, wheretruth is not always so Pleasant.
As my Mind and heart recapture the relationships with my many friends in Baja, I accept their differences with Love being the First Judgement.

We as Americans are in one of the Most important times in our History,where we may lose several Generations of Children. The mexicans are losing their Children to a different Culture.

We Must visit our hearts and Minds in these bad times and have Faith in God>

Skeet/ Loreto

Nothing new here

Eli - 10-16-2004 at 05:19 PM

Bernie,

I am surprised at your dilema, after all You who have always taught me tolerance of other peoples life style, (isn't that really what your books are more about than anything, accepting people for who they are with their flaws and all).

In the end, no I do not approve of Men creating and than leaving familes, nor abuse, be it verbal or physical or by withholding, still these are patterns that are common patterens here, there, I expect every where as long as there has been "the family unit".

Anyway, I guess where I am going with this is; cheating on ones spouse, making babies and than abandoning them isn't just a Mexican thing, it is a common state of being. Your own successful marriage is a fluke of nature, the Bever Cleaver family unit is more of a myth than reality.

My mother raised me without much economacaI intereaction from my father, who by the way, god love him, did run away from an ugly marriage and off to Mexico to marry a young mexican lady and raise another family. I raised my daughter without much help from her father. My daughter married had a kid, her husband does not pay support, but she and her new husband, (who by the way although pays his support religously, did abandon an ugly marriage with an ugly wife to marry my daughter, a younger woman) and they take care of loving and the economic needs of my grandson just fine. At the same time my daughters ex-husband struggles to support his new wife and the two kids she had by another guy, who is most likly supporting someone elses kids. There is no way my daughters ex can support my grandson, nor the son he had by another woman before he got togeather with my daughter and at the same time support this new wife's kids. Really, in the end it MOSTLY but of course not always all works out. I was happy to make a living and support me and my kid. And, I understand why my Dad left my Mom and started a new life, she drove him nuts. All the men I mention in this writing are men I love and respect, but they are "guilty of abandonment of their responsibilites" at one time or another in their lives, still I accept them for who they are.

One of my best friends in the whole world, can barly support himself, and did next to nothing to contribute to the support of his 5 kids by 3 different marriages.

He himself was orphaned in Mexico City by the time he was 8 years old, abandoned by both parents when his father moved on to create a new family with a younger woman and left his mother and the 2nd family without income. My friend loves with the greatest respect his now deceased parents, he holds them no grudge, but he is part of a common pattern, that I have no idea how to resolve, surly I am in no position to judge him or fix the problem.

What keeps my friend going is a dream to reconcile with one of his middle children and have an income sufficent to bring her to his home and support her thru high school and college. He has two years to get it togeather while she continues to grow up without him. Really, who knows if this is what she wants or is just a fantasy that keeps him going and something to work towards. What I am trying to express is; he wants to do the right thing, he is working towards this, it is just a tough old world, and there are all kinds of factors to take into consideration which we don't always see looking in from the outside.

I guess what I am trying to say is; I don't think Men ever start familes to intentionally abandon their kids or plan to cheat on their wives, it is just that they are a product of their enviorment and love turns ugly more often than not and we find ourselves living out patterns that we are predisposed to and don't even know why.

The Mid life crisis and men being irresponsible IS NORMAL, it has been going on as long as there have been humans I am sure. So, what can we do, well, I forgive, try not to judge and do all I can to not get caught in an abuseive realtionship, (which means I live like a Nun, sigh...jeje).

What I wanna know is; was there ever a time when Men weren't abandoning and abusing? I think not.

Eli

Baja Bernie - 10-16-2004 at 07:03 PM

Now that is a ton of stuff to think about!
I believe that I will go back to my 'little bit of paradise' and forget the whole thing.

Okay JR, my friend, just see what you have wrought.

I really didn't think I was being intolerant in pointing out that people are just that people or if you must "Humans."

Guess I leave this with a question, why does the sun come up to soon for some and far to late for others?

Boy! if we didn't practice tolerance there would be nobody for us to tell tall tales, drink beer, or laugh with. So let's all have a beer and laugh at ourselves for a while.

[Edited on 10-17-2004 by Baja Bernie]

AMEN BERNIE!

David K - 10-16-2004 at 07:26 PM

How simple things really are and how much we all are more alike than not!

Thank God for Baja!!!

I am ready to do a new adventure... Palm Canyons, Lost Missions, El Camino Real Hike, Rock Art Sites, what to do, what to do!!!

ONE MAN'S OPINION

LOVE2GO2BAJA - 10-16-2004 at 08:04 PM


10/16/04
First of all I would like to state I LOVE MEXICO and its wonderful people. Secondly, I know no one is perfect including myself. Thirdly, generally speaking, all of the cultural and social differences that exist in the world make life interesting, worth seeing and experiencing. However, on the other hand I have also seen many of the same things that Baja Bernie mentioned up close and in person while living here in Baja California, Mexico for more than 30 years. The Mexican culture ?eMexican Machismo?f with which I speak of does not look down on men (by name only) who have several wives and or girlfriends (pregnant or otherwise) at the same time. (I am not suggesting that all Mexican men or this way; I am only directing this to whom it applies to). Especially since most of these men also what ever nationality they are in most cases are unable to support financially and emotionally one, both or any of their wives, girlfriends, and children at the same time.
That being noted, I am a single father living here in Mexico who tries to do my fair share in making this world a better place to live in. Thus, I gladly took on the responsibility of emotionally and financially supporting 6 children while living here in Mexico. The three oldest (all bilingual) 1 has graduated while the other two are still attending U.A.B.C. and are currently working. The three youngest (12, 9, & 7) are currently in school and hopefully will also follow in the footsteps of their adopted brothers and sisters. That being said NONE of these children have ever been contacted or financially supported ?eNOT ONE PESO?f and or emotionally by their fathers in the 15 + years I have successfully helped raised and loved these children. The fathers (3) who are known to be alive and well are remarried with more children further demonstrating they could care less about their children from there past marriages and or girlfriends. With this in mind, I have always contemplated about why the Mexican Government doesn?ft enact laws or enforce any they may have with regards to fathers and child support? This is on account of I have NEVER met a divorced single mother with children here in Mexico that has ever received child support. That doesn?ft mean ALL men here in Mexico do not support their children here I am just stating I have yet to meet a single mother who gets financial support or otherwise from their deadbeat ex?fs. I also blame the Mexican government for permitting these deadbeat fathers to continue this type of behavior. Now granted I know this also goes on in the U.S. but at least we have some laws in place that hold fathers more accountable to help provide for their children when they are forgotten or abandon by their parents. The U.S. is far from perfect in this matter however mothers and also fathers have the power in holding some of these deadbeat fathers and mothers more accountable than they do here in Mexico! In short, I don?ft like what?fs happening here or anywhere else for that matter as it pertains to our most important future resource; CHILDREN. For what eventually goes around comes around! Parents and or care givers can and do make a difference in a child?fs life!
What ever happened to Family Planning?
I also know first hand that it?fs a tuff world out there more than most however, its just plain old common sense that you should have a job and a little bit of money before you get married and or start having kids so other people or not always paying for your mistakes!

P.S. All men do not abuse and abandon their wives, girlfriends, and children!!! That behavior is LEARNED, not NATURAL. ?? NUTURE NOT NATURE.

Without a doubt for thousands of generations of human evolution males have been hard-wired to spread their genes however, it was also incumbent upon the Homo sapiens ?emale?f species to protect their young as to successfully pass on those genes.


LOVE2GO2BAJA

Regarding Eli's Response and Ernie's Post

Mike Humfreville - 10-16-2004 at 09:24 PM

We watched Ocean?s Oasis tonight, for the umpteenth time, not long after I?d read Eli?s response to Bernie?s post. With their thoughts working in background mode as we watched the movie about life, mostly in the water, in the Sea of Cortez, I considered words written by friends and compounded them with what I?ve learned from Baja California.

Life and any form of it is a risky deal. Sperm and ovum meet by coincidence or a selective process and on we go for a wild ride over which we have no control. Genetics wins in the long run. In the short run we are lucky to survive even a moment in time. The snapping jaws of life destroy most of it before it reaches maturity. And, for that matter, does any species of life other than human have a concept of ?maturity??

Along the shores of any bay in Baja there are remains of life being consumed to the fullest. The nature of life is to regenerate itself. The stronger of a species will dominate. That?s natural. And beyond human. Way beyond.

But then we arrive via an evolutionary process as animals with social instincts, a thing called, first lust, and then, love. We crawl from the oceans, or into them as with whales, and evolve. We become more complex. We develop structured societies and relations based on stated or presumed bases of behavior. We develop the concept of individual values for individual performance. We begin a comprehension of ?I.? It starts as a tiny i, and works eventually, if the ego is grand enough, into a full blown I.

Evolving into human in humanity?s various forms is almost impossible. Like watching different beasts consume each other in an underwater film, each looking only for themselves. But that instinct is how they were granted a right to continue.

With respect to a single family of values in my species I know that there have been times of attraction for both my wife and myself to each other and to others. I see this as a natural part of the human evolutionary process. While there can be times of test (should I say testes?) I, at least, and only for the moment perhaps, make a choice to stay where I am by realizing I rather enjoy being here and that I am surrounded with a family that I care for and who, each in their own unique way, reflect that feeling back to me. The long term caring process and my perceived loss without it is what holds me close to family.

But I?m really weird. I have some need to be wanted wherever I turn up that holds me close to home and family and friends.

Perhaps that?s a weakness. But I guess I have grown beyond the instincts for self-preservation that have ruled us for millennium. Perhaps I have evolved into a species, short lived I?m certain, that has the internal and intellectual comforts where realize we can arrive at a place where we merge with others without needing to stand superior.

But I really doubt it. It just might be my dying dream.

And to assure myself I have thought about this issue before, here?s a simple ?poem,? previously posted.


the little i (edges)

i spend so much time hanging on edges
i?m not sure where they end, where they started,
where i might step off into open air and the unknown
and where i might tread firm ground.

what is firm ground, anyway?

edges are alignments. of work, of family, of friends
places where i?ve made or implied commitment.

at times i want no edges, no responsibility for others,
or for myself. i want to float in
a pool of temperate water and face down and
reflect across the meaning of life, my existence, and
test the quality of my lungs and life
thus far.

i see me reflected in tidepools across a wide lagoon.
a haven from the tattered and worn
images of favored society
i have represented and support.

i must jump! to avoid too many edges.
they plead with me.
stay, they say. but i cannot.

i have jumped now. the edges are gone.
landed at a small lagoon, i am at last free.

observations upon entry to a new world,
a chance for new impressions on my heart.
a bird dancing across water wearied with ripples
in an afternoon breeze
as sun sets west
across mountains
and mullet penetrate the surface
in reverse for some, and
my sphere sparkles with love and a sense of building.

i watch the helpless beasts
strive to survive
as best they know how, far better than i

the little i.
that is me then, the little i.

i must be here then for a simple means,
no grand scheme?
what relief.

now i can participate. i can be one with all i know.

tonight i can play with the tiny nightlife
along the edges of a bay
and join in their frivolous chatter of life
and death in a small lagoon.

and again i am in love.
my new friends care for me.
and i am gentle with them,
those tiny fellows.
i may form new cares and causes with others.

it must require a great sensitivity
and simplicity
to bond with the less complex
only to find they are the more?

the tiny beast that has stung me
worked only for existence of his species while
i do the same for mine.

we are programmed.

i am again on an edge, but now
one with nature, and know, somehow,
that all i know contains edges.

i can?t count them, but
they?re there lurking,
waiting for me to trip and
commit myself
to a cause or an institution.

and during my fitful images
awake or asleep
i remember my loves and
places i have cares for?

they are my edges.




[Edited on 10-17-2004 by Mike Humfreville]

FrankO - 10-16-2004 at 10:17 PM

I will say that Eli's and LOVE2GO2BAJA's post were excellent. It's nice not to have a kneejerk, prejudiced, bitter and simplistic response to simple truths. As a once single dad who did his best financially and emotionally( normal for me) for his kids I applaud thier statements.
Refreshing.

David K - 10-16-2004 at 10:27 PM

Hi Frank, how are the babies and mama doing?

Eating Machines

FrankO - 10-17-2004 at 06:50 AM

Growing like mad, they don't quite fit in my arms that easily already. 4 months on the 25th. We're looking forward to a lifetime of travel and adventure w/them.

Bernie,

jrbaja - 10-17-2004 at 11:02 AM

Unfortunately, I have been saddened myself by these posts. I suppose because I do spend the majority of my time in the rural areas (Appalachia), as you previously mentioned, I miss the reality of what's really going on down here.
All of my Mexican neighbors here in Rosarito are very happy and stay married. And most everywhere I go this is the case.
I also deal with the orphanages and it's true, those kids are coming from somewhere.
I received this from my friends at Agua Viva last week.


Greetings in the all-powerful name of Jesus Christ

This may be the toughest letter I've ever written. The only picture we are sending this week is of Guadalupe Morales Jimenez and her five children on the day they came to stay with us. A troubled mom, she needed our help while she earned the money to purchase land for a home for her family. She just recently made the down-payment on that land. A faithful mom, twice she went to another state to work to earn that money, but called every week to talk to her kids. When she came back in June this year, she said she wasn't going to do that again. It was just too much time away form her children. Nearly every week, she has been taking at least two of her kids for the weekend and was looking forward to the time when they would switch from resident care to day care. Tragically, last week, she was killed in a roll-over accident on the way home from work. Joyfully, she knew the Lord when she died.

There is no way for us to tell you of the grief we feel for the children's loss. A friend of Lupe's is trying to help us locate their uncle in mainland Mexico. And life goes on. There will be sad times ahead for them, but we are so grateful that the Lord has placed them in our care during this time. They, along with all of the children, are getting more hugs. There is nothing more important right now than that they know that the Lord loves them and that we love them. Robert and I have sent our hugs through Jon and Arlene. We hear they do a wonderful job.

There's a part of me that wants to stop here. What else is there to say? But the ministry continues when times are good and when they are sad. There are 24 other children living at LTLCC. There are children coming in every day to Agua Viva. It's a busy place. Workers and volunteers come and go, kids go to school morning and afternoon, chores must be done.

We ask your prayers for all of us as we adjust to this loss. We also ask fervent prayer for more volunteers, workers and support to pay those workers. We are short-staffed now and everyone is stretched to the limit. One more child care worker specifically from 11 am to 8 pm would lighten the load considerably. And to those of you who have written asking if we need volunteers: NOW is the time! We need committed Christians who are willing to make a decision to join the ministry. The pay is terrible, but the rewards are beyond your wildest dreams.

Thanks to those of you who wrote this week asking where your letter is. Please accept my apologies for the delay. It's nice to know you miss us when we don't write. Your prayers for us have been wonderful. We are strengthened and encouraged by them. We are also very grateful to the recent visitors who came to build our guest house, do some plumbing and bring us donations of food and diapers.

Serving the Lord Jesus Christ with all joy, Robert, Penny, Jon, Arlene and the children, volunteers and staff of Agua Viva and LTLCC



www.letthelittlechildrencome.org
www.zianet.com/fbclc/ltlcc
see also www.acts2020.org
(Mexico) kdsbaja@starband.net
(US) matthew19_14@letthelittlechildrencome.org


David K - 10-17-2004 at 11:17 AM

Wow... how can anyone complain about their lives when this is the world to so many... Thank you JR for posting the letter and email.

Would you please post exactly where Agua Viva is, so Nomads can drop by for donations or volunteer assistance?

[Edited on 10-17-2004 by David K]

OK, but they are typical Mexican directions

jrbaja - 10-17-2004 at 03:26 PM

Turn towards Punta Banda/La Bufadora when you get to the signal in Maneadero.

Take the first left onto a main dirt road. Go to the third intersection of "main" dirt roads and turn right. Go up the hill and it is the only two story, modern looking structure/house on the right.
John and Arlene are incredible folks who truly care about these kids and families.

Alright Don Bernie

Eli - 10-17-2004 at 05:39 PM

Whew, your reply is certainly what I had hoped for and expected from you.

Let the first among us without sin, cast the first stone. I sure ain't picking up any rocks on this one.

Our lifes lessons are all as different and valid as the different paths our lives take us on. For sure, mine has taught me NOT to believe that humans are by nature Managomas. At the same time I am for sure that it exisits, but I don't think it is all that common. As Mike so well put it; it is something that one has to work at. And for sure I applaud all You Guys that have worked so hard to make a lier out of me, bless you, bless you, bless you, you are indeed a rare breed.

Good news Love2got2 Baja; In regard to child support in Mexico, it is the law. My ex son-in-law has for sure had his share of reprimands government wise in regard to being late on paying child support for his first son, who by the way was born out of wed lock. If He don't pay, the law is on him like flies on poo, for sure the ex-girl friend reports and the laws acts.

I know of several cases where it is the same, the law will go after non-supporting fathers. If you want to go after a non supporting Dad you can certainly sue them and can make their lives (and I expect your own) plenty miserable in the process.

At the same time, there is a lack of wanting to get involved with demandas and law makers here, most folks figure it is much easier to take care of their kids on their own rather than trying to squeeze blood from a rock.

My daughter and her present husband are farily well off, they have no need of any money from the ex, and perfer to rasie my grandson without help or the interference that would come from her ex. if he did get involved, Besides which, they have a fair amount of compassion for his existing situation supporting someone elses kids.

O.K., more than glad Bernie that you are going back to have a beer and a chuckle a few tall tales. You can bet your boots, I am going back to studing the clouds of Oaxaca, that is certainly where my head belong. Man they were awesome this afternoon, it was a real "Jesus Christ Super Star Clouds Opening Up to let the light shine thru" kind of show coming in on the bus from Tule this afternoon.

JESSE - 10-17-2004 at 06:12 PM

Folks,

I remind you that we Mexicans dont really yet have a culture despite what many think and despite what we claim, facts are that Mexican society is still trying to find its style, its values, and its beliefs. I sometimes envy your culture because your culture is already stablished and mature. On the other hand theres a certain trill of the unknown, while you guys fight to simply maintain yours, we are in search of the definition of ours.

Mexican society is not uniform, it is incredibly varied unlike yours, completely different from city to city, state from state, north from south. Mexico is a nation of many myths, historical, social and cultural, there is no such thing as Mexicans being more family oriented, if we live togheter more than you do is simply because there isnt enough jobs and enough money to drive families apart. Another myth is that Mexicans are more friendly, more laid back, and i also find this to be a result of our current economic condition.

Having said all of that, lets enjoy the Mexico we now have, who cares about the reasons why Mexico makes us feel the way it does, who cares if our feelings are myths, what is truly a fact is that the Mexico we now enjoy will die soon enough, people are changing, the culture is changing, the nation is changing, but in the meantime, we still have enough years of fantasy and myth to last us a lifetime.





[Edited on 10-18-2004 by JESSE]

Eli

Mike Humfreville - 10-17-2004 at 06:15 PM

I miss your posts that were floating around nomad before I left for Bahia de Los Angeles. Mas, por favor. Your insight to issues is always a pleasure to read and chew on.

David K - 10-17-2004 at 06:41 PM

Thank you Jesse... You and Antonio are regular, credible sources for the Mexicano point of view on Nomad. Everyone here is fortunate that you give us your perspective! Mil gracias!

I also second Mike's thanks to Eli (Sara), from Baja Sur.

[Edited on 10-18-2004 by David K]

Braulio - 10-17-2004 at 07:26 PM

Well said David - I haven't been back long enough to know who Antonio is - I guess he's mexican - but yeah - this board is fortunate to have Jesse's perspective.

David K - 10-17-2004 at 07:55 PM

Hi Braulio!
Antonio is known as 'BajaCactus' here on Nomad... We met him in July at a small bar b que at JR's place... we met JESSE that day, as well!: http://vivabaja.com/bajacactus

Antonio had a great fiesta for us (around 70!) in August: http://vivabaja.com/fiesta
Here's Antonio and myself then...

Braulio - 10-18-2004 at 12:05 PM

You look even more mexicano than Antonio dude - where you been hanging out?

Thank you!

David K - 10-18-2004 at 12:34 PM

I hope I can get an FM-3 easier with that comment! HA! Baja is in my blood, afterall.

Seriously, I work outdoors everyday and the sun and I are on a first name basis!:light:

I thought he was talking about

jrbaja - 10-18-2004 at 12:36 PM

the burrito belly hahahahahahahaha

David K - 10-18-2004 at 01:08 PM

Well, Antonio has me beat in that catagory JR... But the more I go to Baja and eat great food, the closer I become to getting a nick name like 'Gordo'!

I have to get back to hiking the Camino Real to keep it under control!

Wow

Bruce R Leech - 10-18-2004 at 07:30 PM

Wow

Jesse

Eli - 10-19-2004 at 02:25 PM

For two days now I have been chewing on your comment that U.S. has a culture and Mexico is still searching for it's own. I have always assumed the oppisite, now I don't know. In fin, could you please give me some examples of state side culture, you really got me intrigued with that one.


[Edited on 10-19-2004 by Eli]

JESSE - 10-19-2004 at 02:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eli
For two days now I have been chewing on your comment that U.S. has a culture and Mexico is still searching for it's own. I have always assumed the oppisite, now I don't know. In fin, could you please give me some examples of state side culture, you really got me intrigued with that one.


[Edited on 10-19-2004 by Eli]


This is something that not even most Mexicans know, since we have been told my our education system that we have a great an old culture, compared for lets say, your culture. Americans have a NEW nation, but the culture you have (primarily european) has been with you far longer than what we have here in Mexico. During the Spanish conquest, real Mexican culture was destroyed, modern Mexicans know what our pyramids look like, what our ancestors dressed like, and some of their more visible customs, but we have no idea what the prehispanic mind was like, we have no clue what their values where, what their view of life and our relationship with the earth was, we dont even know what our vision of art and family life was like. As far as our spanish side is concerned, we feel we can relate to many traditions and views of european origin, but not completely, because we are not of european descent. Its as is theres something missing in our life, lately we have been looking more and more into following our side of european culture mainly because of the growth of american culture, but i can tell you that Mexicans wont ever turn into something similar to what americans are, its simply not in out genes.

Since theres no way to resurrect our prehispanic past, and we cannot feel complete with only our european past, Mexican society needs to create a new culture for itself, a hybrid, and that takes a very very long time.

When you guys look at a greek statue or a Michelangelo painting, you can relate to it, you can feel what the artist was thinking, his view of life, culture, and art. When we look at a Maya mural or an Aztec statute, we are at a loss, we have no idea and cant relate to them, we dont know what they felt, what their concept of beauty and art was, and what drove them to create it. We know when it was created, have some ideas on why, but we will never be able to connect with that part of our culture, that part is lost.

Mexican people have old pyramids, old art, but a baby culture.

Americans have new buildings, new art and style, but an established old culture.

O.K., Jesse, I can grasp your perspective,

Eli - 10-19-2004 at 03:39 PM

More so since you live in T.j., where all is a mix.

Buttttttttttt;

I have always seen U.S. as a melting pot of many cultures, American Indian, India, Europe, African, Middle Eastern, etc. etc.

At the same time, I see the Huchiol, the Mayan, in paticular the Lacandon Indians as completly immersed in their understanding of where they came from.

As I walk the streets of Oaxaca, I hear all kinds of Indian Dielects, I see customs in dress, eating habits, and a perspective of life that they project that completly validates the culture they have immeged from.

Again, I can see where you are coming from as a Mexican, (mixed). Still, as a gringa, I am a mix, mostly European, but also native American, and as such I was rasied in a jumbled up culture.

This mix up of U.S. cultures is not taking into consideration that I have spent my life floating between both sides of the boarder, (I am the only one of my siblings that was born on "the other side").

At this point in time, I believe that due to the Media and Internet, we are becoming a global villiage; the whole planet is poco a poco, ever so slowly emerging into one gloob of a culture which is derived from the many cultures world wide that are contributing to it. Maybe????????

I don't know, I just thought your comment to be very interesting and most certainly thought provoking, which I will continue to ponder as I wander, studying the clouds that daily change but are the same, which also intrigues the beejeezus out of me.

Jesse & Eli...

David K - 10-19-2004 at 05:34 PM

This is really great stuff... I understand Jesse totally and he is so well versed in putting it into words, it has to have 'stewed' in his cabeza for quite some time.

I am wondering how it is you came to understand American 'culture' so well? Most of us think culture is what we are bombarded with on TV, from Coke and Pepsi!

I was fortunate to tour Europe, and I can relate to what you say. Do you think most Mestizo Mexicans cannot connect to their Aztec half? What about the huge per centage of los indios who live in Oaxaca, Chiapas, and most of the mainland? They still don't speak Spanish... after nearly 500 years since Cortes.... I wonder if they have a connection with the Aztecs, Olmecs, or their own tribe?

Great stuff... I think we need another cultural fiesta in Tijuana to exchange thoughts on this!

wilderone - 10-20-2004 at 09:56 AM

Jesse - with all due respect, I believe your viewpoint assumes too much. Our "culture" here is so diverse that most of us cannot cling to or identify with old customs, but rather, we make a quantuum leap to whatever familial status one is born into. For instance, my greatgrandparents did indeed come from Germany and France (whom I never knew), but my grandparents were farmers in Kansas, who came to California during the war to get jobs and leave the hard life of farming. I do not celebrate Octoberfest nor own a pair of lederhosen or know any French or German language. I don't know how to operate a plow or pluck a chicken. As children we learned about religion and traditional holidays like Christmas, Holloween, Easter, etc., but do not celebrate saint's days or patron saint's of our smaller communities like they do in small villages in Mexico. You say, "when you guys look at a greek statue or a Michelangelo painting, you can relate to it, you can feel what the artist was thinking ...." Not so - only if one has an interest in art and so educates him/herself. Otherwise, that statute or art is out there for anyone in the world to enjoy at any level they are able. This is universal. It is truly sad that you cannot relate to a Maya mural and "have no idea and can't relate to them, etc.". I suspect this is because you have not made an effort to learn what is behind their creations. I have spent many years and read many books and traveled many miles to see Mayan structures and habitation sites to learn, simply because I am interested to know about these people who have devised such remarkable mathematical contributions as well as architecture and art pieces. It is certainly not lost - in fact, more and more it is being understood and revived and protected. Mexican culture is more pure than that in America - you are simply wrong when you say that we have an established old culture. I live in a city of 3 million people, where there is a neighborhood of Italians who celebrate life in their way, and similarly, a Portugese community, Vietnamese, black, and now a significant African influx. I don't try to understand or participate in all of these diverse cultural influences because there are simply too many. And that is only in one large city in America. Cities in the south predominately black have their own culture, likewise the Cuban communities in Florida. I would opine that other states dissimilar of large cities - Montana, Idaho, Maine don't have a "culture" per se - 200 years of diverse European immigrants doesn't provide a basis for such a culture -- more so an "American" way of life rich in local traditions. For instance, we in California don't have a maple syrup season. This can be compared to Mexico's many indigenous cultures - each having their own beliefs and lifestyles, which they strive to maintain despite your government's attempt at genocide (Acteal). If you begin to study your country's past inhabitants and appreciate the indigenous population of today and try to understand their way of life, you would find your roots and your culture. It is there - it is not lost. And if you feel that you are not of the indigenous indio cultures, but rather, of the rural Mexican with their adobe homes, milpas, arranged marriages who struggled through a hard life, living day to day, then be proud that you are better off, but don't forget those roots. And contrary to your belief that Mexicans won't ever turn into something similar to what Americans are because it is not in their genes, take a look at what Mexico City is becoming - another Los Angeles. There is no doubt of this. Mexican society does not need to create a new culture - a hybrid - you have a wonderful rich culture that needs to be remembered, embraced and celebrated - in all its variations. Spend Dia de la Muertos (sp?) in Oaxaca and see your culture come alive.

Packoderm - 10-20-2004 at 10:56 AM

I think I believe in Jesse's point of view. The person who sculpted the famous sculpture David, as we know for the most part, was emanating an appreciation of the perfect body form but also a vulnerability and intelligence. What about the creator of Chac Mool? The Christian right destroyed that legacy of perspective. To me, the most interesting aspect of anthropology is the question, "Where were they coming from?" I am not German, and I do not fomally, officially celebrate Oktoberfest or own a pair of short-legged overalls (or whatever those things are called) but I know about and appreciate the spirit of Oktoberfest, and I celebrate the spirit of Oktoberfest whenever possible all year long.

The "True American Culture"

jrbaja - 10-20-2004 at 10:57 AM

died when they celebrated the first Thanksgiving. From then on it has just been a blend of cultures from all over the place.

Packoderm - 10-20-2004 at 11:13 AM

I don't think there was actually a true, central Native American culture back then. I believe there as a smattering of several cultures spread across the continent, and even some of these Native American cultures were continuously blending into each other while others remained separate. There is probably a stronger central, unified Native American culture today than there was back then.

wilderone - 10-20-2004 at 11:17 AM

To me, the question is not so much "where" but "why". Why and for what reason did they make a long obsidian blade, a Chac Mool, the incense burner, hoe blade, paintbrush, beads, altar, why the bloodletting, ear piercing, human sacrifice. Once the "whys" become understood you begin to appreciate the culture, which, in turn, will lead you to respect various cultures as they exist today. A big WHY that still intrigues me, and which I have yet to see with my own eyes, are the figurines of Acambaro. Do some online research - really bizarre - has both elements of WHERE and WHY. This is a prime example that, in not knowing their origin, the cultural appreciation is lost (but art for art's sake is not - eye of the beholder).

Probably not

jrbaja - 10-20-2004 at 11:55 AM

a central native American culture, as back then, each individual nation had enough members to have had a culture all their own, although very similar to the rest of the neighboring cultures then.
There culture was based a lot on spirituality, various gods and sacrifice which they truly believed in.
This is something that we have yet to fully understand although on occasion, I think Lera may be a practicioner.:lol:

Hey Bernie, you reading this?

Eli - 10-20-2004 at 12:23 PM

man, oh man, did you even open a can a worms when you started this thread, we have been all over the place.......fun!

BajaGrrls - 10-20-2004 at 12:56 PM

I've really enjoyed reading everyone's views on this topic. While I'm inclined to agree that Americans like lack a strong sense of unified culture, let's face it, new immigrants are arriving daily, I also see Jesse's point that Americans of European decent do have an "older" history. I don't think history always relates to culture though.

As a kid growing up first generation American born, (my parents arrived from Denmark in the 1970's) I always felt that I didn't fit in anywhere. I couldn't identify completely with American kids, and I had never been to Denmark, so that felt even more foreign. Eventually I learned to create my own blend of culture. I think you could go to the most culturally "pure" place on earth and have a difficult time finding people who viewed their culture as being exactly the same as anothers.

JESSE - 10-20-2004 at 01:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eli
More so since you live in T.j., where all is a mix.

Buttttttttttt;

I have always seen U.S. as a melting pot of many cultures, American Indian, India, Europe, African, Middle Eastern, etc. etc.

At the same time, I see the Huchiol, the Mayan, in paticular the Lacandon Indians as completly immersed in their understanding of where they came from.

As I walk the streets of Oaxaca, I hear all kinds of Indian Dielects, I see customs in dress, eating habits, and a perspective of life that they project that completly validates the culture they have immeged from.

Again, I can see where you are coming from as a Mexican, (mixed). Still, as a gringa, I am a mix, mostly European, but also native American, and as such I was rasied in a jumbled up culture.

This mix up of U.S. cultures is not taking into consideration that I have spent my life floating between both sides of the boarder, (I am the only one of my siblings that was born on "the other side").

At this point in time, I believe that due to the Media and Internet, we are becoming a global villiage; the whole planet is poco a poco, ever so slowly emerging into one gloob of a culture which is derived from the many cultures world wide that are contributing to it. Maybe????????

I don't know, I just thought your comment to be very interesting and most certainly thought provoking, which I will continue to ponder as I wander, studying the clouds that daily change but are the same, which also intrigues the beejeezus out of me.


You are right about the Indians in Mexico, but the sad reality is that pure indians are down to only 20% of the population, and from that 20% only a small percentage have stayed close to their culture, wich has not died but its slowly disapearing as Mexico modernizes, what we are seeing is the slow death of whats left of those cultures.

BajaGrrls - 10-20-2004 at 01:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
...but its slowly disapearing as Mexico modernizes, what we are seeing is the slow death of whats left of those cultures.



That's just part of evolution. In with the new, out with the old. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just natural. Each generation looses a little bit of its heritage and creates a new part. History happens right before our eyes.

JESSE - 10-20-2004 at 01:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
This is really great stuff... I understand Jesse totally and he is so well versed in putting it into words, it has to have 'stewed' in his cabeza for quite some time.

I am wondering how it is you came to understand American 'culture' so well? Most of us think culture is what we are bombarded with on TV, from Coke and Pepsi!

I was fortunate to tour Europe, and I can relate to what you say. Do you think most Mestizo Mexicans cannot connect to their Aztec half? What about the huge per centage of los indios who live in Oaxaca, Chiapas, and most of the mainland? They still don't speak Spanish... after nearly 500 years since Cortes.... I wonder if they have a connection with the Aztecs, Olmecs, or their own tribe?

Great stuff... I think we need another cultural fiesta in Tijuana to exchange thoughts on this!


David,

Small tribes are still virtually intact in some very few remote parts of the nation, but non of these cultures have what the big 3 ( Aztec, Maya, Zapotec) had, and that is complex culture with writting, religion, art, and everything that a major civilization has.

Imagine your culture without Greece? without Rome? thats what the Aztec and Maya cultures mean to us, specially the Aztec, since the Maya was already in decline when the Spanish got here.

JESSE - 10-20-2004 at 01:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGrrls
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
...but its slowly disapearing as Mexico modernizes, what we are seeing is the slow death of whats left of those cultures.



That's just part of evolution. In with the new, out with the old. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just natural. Each generation looses a little bit of its heritage and creates a new part. History happens right before our eyes.


I am also not saying its bad, i am just saying that modern Mexican society is starting a process of creation, we have to build a new culture based on what we are and the forces that influence us, and its my opinion that it will be a very very long process.

wilderone - 10-20-2004 at 03:27 PM

How will you ever know when you "arrive" at the precise culture you attempt to seek? You can't - because you already have a culture that is always evolving. To whatever degree you embrace and adopt your forefathers' values and traditions is the culture that exists today. If it's dying, it's a matter of personal choice. If you don't like that concept as it affects you, there is plenty to draw from - just look inside yourself and see what matters, then choose to celebrate it and live it within traditional style. This may take some study into those traditions - make the effort.

Eli

Baja Bernie - 10-20-2004 at 08:58 PM

Yes I am still here. Interesting I started this thread "WONDERING" and now Jesse et el have me sitting here Pondering. Jesse has a lot of very good points and some of the counter points are also food for thought. I think I'll just wander around pondering on this one for a while.

Jesse, my young friend, have you ever read "Aztec" by Gary Jennings. It was written about two years before you were born---Here is a poem, taken from the introduction to the book, written by Huexotzin The Prince of Texcoco in 1485---

You tell me then that I must perish
like the flowers that I cherish
Nothing remaining of my name,
nothing remembered of my fame?
But the gardens I planted still are young--
the songs I sang will still be sung!

What do you suppose he meant by the last line--I wonder.

bajalera - 10-20-2004 at 09:29 PM

Jesse, I'm not convinced the average American feels much affiliation with Greece and Rome.

Lera

Bajalera...

Mike Humfreville - 10-20-2004 at 10:48 PM

I don't know average. I'm on the underside academically. But I tend to pay attention when in another world, which is most of the time since I have no place on my own, socially.

When reading words another has written, an observation of a simple worn twig washed ashore or a hardwood carving made be a mainland Mexican and shipped to San Felipe for sale to tourists, I tend to dive into them, the words, and soak up the issues the writer writes.

You and I know that JESSE writes only the truth. His post, regarding the aspects he sees in his neighbors to the north are his truths. I read his thoughts with deep feeling, knowing he is expressing himself in a way I?d never read him before. I believe them, his feelings. I know you do too, bajalera.

While I think we Gringos, behaving in Mexico, are many on vacation, with others of us living there beyond part time, we share much history.

I suppose there are a few locations on Earth where we live in isolation. Iceland? Greenland? A frozen hut in Antarctica? But for the most part we are together. Seeing the lauded paintings and statues of Western Europe, the isolated walled villages of Africa, colored as they were with the tints of local earth unique to their location, hearing the complaints of the Yugoslavs during the ?70?s and looking in confusion at graffiti scribbled across a bridge ?NIXON: Assassin,? as we crossed in innocence into Portugal from Spain.

On the contrary, mi amigo (amiga), many of us are aware of the world and what we owe it and where we fit, can strive to find a place, a tiny niche to save ourselves when the weather breaks and the sea cuts loose. We can know our small place to stand and steal a scrap of food when no one is watching.

While I don?t mean to shout out names, jesse?s, just as yours, bajalera, have become an inspiration to me, for the understanding of a spirit unique from mine that I can learn and grow from.

Yet we are all a voice, unique at times, and self-standing when necessary. At times we are one.

I look forward to the time we will meet. We share so much.

We win from the strength of each other and our individual attitudes!

Ditto Mike

Eli - 10-21-2004 at 08:21 AM

Again I have stepped away from my study of the clouds, and have been reading every ones comments in relation to their vision of ?What is Culture? and ?Where did it?, or even better yet, ?Where does it come from?, I certainly really truly have so far enjoyed the diversity of everyone?s opinion in regard to this.

I can relate to so many visions projected here. In particular, Jesse?s, Wilderone and Bajagrrl, Mike H.; Each drawing from their own life?s experience, have expressed visions that I can certainly relate to and have given me much food for thought. As I watch the clouds dance about me, I just continue chewing and chewing on what all everybody has to say in regard to their vision of culture.

Jesse?s, as I grasp what you are saying, I understand that your lose of identify with any culture is drawn from being raised in Baja. As the Perd? cu Indians, (Help me on the spelling of this one David, or at least forgive me), were the original ?leave nothing but your foot steps when your gone conciseness? sort of folks. As such, they didn?t leave a whole lot of clutter; so we don?t have a whole lot of knowledge of what their culture was about, other than they were nomadic, did some hunting and gathering, ate a bunch of clams, pityas and left a few cave paintings.

Jesse, chooses not to identify with his European ancestry, and therefore does not feel privileged to draw from this culture that truly he has much right to as an anyone in the America?s. If you analyze it, with the exception of those born of 100% Indian ancestry, (be it Hopi, Yaqui, Mayan or Apache, what ever), or 100% Middle Eastern or African, etc., (expect you get my drift, I hope); Most of us in the America?s have all, a lot of, or at least some European ancestry somewhere in there and as such, we are drawing from our European roots, and therefore have the right to claim that culture. (Although in the end, I still believe that we are all of us on the planet now influenced by all cultures due to in the interaction of media and the internet).

Bajagrrl, I know where you are coming from when you comment about coming from Europe young enough to loose your identity as a European, but being raised in a European household, therefore not feeling American either. For as long as I can remember, I have felt an outsider looking in. Neither the Gringos, nor the Mexicans, nor even the Chicano?s choose to identify me as ?One of their Own?. Having been raised on both sides of the boarder, I belong to neither nor none. Ah but, the advantage being; I don?t get lost in identifying as anything other than being a plain and simple Humane Being from Plant Earth and draw my own culture from what ever culture that exists on the plant that I choose to identify with.

Wilderone, I loved your dissertation on what we have access to from the ancient cultures here in Mexico. I agree, we are truly wealthy beyond belief in the sense of what we may draw from in the way of past and present Mexican/Indian culture. You are right, you just got to get in there and study it, it is there for who ever wants to partake of it, and as much as you can fill up on it until you are busting the preverbal gut. I expect that there is more to study, more ideas and culture to fill ones brain than even an academic such as A.A. could ever hope to consume in one life time.

Certainly, I agree with the statement that we form our culture as we go, it is continually changing and evolving and well, a lot of wonderful (and hopefully some of the awful) stuff gets lost along the way. What did Europe loose with the Alexander libraries were destroyed? God only knows what the Catholic Church did in the way of destroying history, art and culture in Europe and the America?s during the Inquisition?

I personally respect and am in awe of the art created centuries ago by the Greeks and Romans, but I don?t really relate to them, they don?t sing to me, but it appears that they do speak to you, Jesse, think about that, does that not make them part of who you are, your culture?

With out doubt, the ancient cultures that truly mostly influence my sense of culture as expressed in my art and life style are the Hopi, Huichol, Yaqui, Zapotecas & Mayas. When I look at my drawings; I know that these ancient cultures along with Picasso, Rodolfo Morales, Grandma Moses, Frida, Josefina Aguilar, your comments, and the clouds that I study daily are excellent examples of where I draw my inspiration from and which most dictates my own vision of reality and style of art. And as such, I have much to thank them (and you) all for. Yes truly, I thank my lucky stars for the grace of knowing them (and you) in their (and your) passing on of their (and your) vision and culture to me.

Simpre, Dando Gracia, Sara




[Edited on 10-21-2004 by Eli]

BajaLera

Baja Bernie - 10-21-2004 at 08:36 AM

Lee,
I am with you on this one so far. While pondering I thought a lot about history-vs-culture and am no embarked on a bit of research to see if what I believe is true is in fact true. FUN!
I kinda think of the history of Greece and Rome as something like what the Priests wrote or failed to write about the natives of this this wonderful finger we call Baja.
I believe that historians always have an undue impact upon what becomes culture.
Taking the fact that historians had their beginnings in the genes of great 'story tellers' or telllers of great tales---The guy or gal who wrote it controls it.
Looking at history as a time line I find that Mexico and Latin America are almost totally ignored--so from that standpoint Jesse has some very solid points.
More later on how I think cultures are erased and replaced by the writers of history and others. I have to do somemore looking before I expose myself on this.

MIKE,
I know you will be very pleased if you ever have the opportunity to meet Jesse in person.
Warm, handsome, outgoing, and obviously very intelligent. Possible a revolutionary given a certain enviornment.
In other words one heck of a man.

Hansome?

Debra - 10-21-2004 at 08:44 AM

Bernie, so I get invited too? :spingrin:

JESSE - 10-21-2004 at 01:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajalera
Jesse, I'm not convinced the average American feels much affiliation with Greece and Rome.

Lera


Nor directly, but the basis of your culture comes from those civilizations, without them, european and american society would be completely different.

JESSE - 10-21-2004 at 01:41 PM

I just wanted to add that living in Baja might seem like a disadvantage for a Mexican looking for his culture, but i do not believe that is true, Mexican culture is not prehispanic culture, and Mexican culture is not european culture, Mexican culture is a blend, a hybrid of both, and here in the border is where this new culture is emerging. There is a large movement of historians, thinkers, and artists that are starting to call the border area the "Third nation", a place where Mexicans are finally blending both western style life and our prehispanic roots. Many of these people think that southern and central Mexico is afraid of change and desperately is trying to hang on to only our prehispanic roots, while feeling angry towards anything western, but here in the border we arent afraid of the west, we that live here understand that is possible to be distinctively Mexican and live a modern western life.

The problem in my opinion, is not that we do not know how to live and thrive in an american-western style society, that in my opinion is fairly easy, the problem is that we havent defined what a Mexican is, and thus dont know how to blend it properly with our clearly defined western part. If i wanted to live like an american i could, but i am in search of something more, i want to be prosperous, modern, yet distinctively Mexican, and that is the long path we have to find ahead.

Annie T. - 10-21-2004 at 01:58 PM

Sometimes lurking can be incredibly enriching. Thank you all, Annie T.:bounce:

Annie

Debra - 10-21-2004 at 02:30 PM

I know what got you.....the "cyber sex" I was enjoying with D. Rat right? :o

Annie T. - 10-21-2004 at 03:11 PM

Debra, Totally!!:lol:

marla - 10-21-2004 at 04:50 PM

People are people regardless of their nationality. I know a lady from El Salvador who has lived in the US for many years and is now a citizen and owns her own home. When she first came to this country, she was a live-in maid for an American family. These people gave her room and board and NOTHING ELSE. Essentially she was their slave until she was able to get away. These people were scum not because they were Americans but because they were scum. Having said that I have seen many occasions in which the Latino culture, not necessarily just Mexican, puts women up on pedestals in the ideal but then allows them to be repressed and abused as a matter of course. In rural parts of Mexico, if families can afford education it is always the boys that go, not the girls. I know of very successful female ceramic artists who even travel to the US for shows who are illiterate and totally dependant on their husband's honesty and goodwill because he sells their wares for them and runs the business--because they cannot. They were not allowed to go to school. THe last two times I have flown to Mexico, well-dressed and articulate older ladies sitting next to me have asked me to fill out their immigration cards for them. Not because they couldn't read English because the cards were also in Spanish, but clearly because they could not read at ALL. Women run the home but have no economic power at all. This was also true however in my Anglo Saxon family in the U.S.

Thanks Jesse

Bruce R Leech - 10-21-2004 at 05:13 PM

Thanks Jesse you are someone that realy understands mexico.

Bruce R Leech Mulege Baja

[Edited on 10-22-2004 by Bruce R Leech]

That may be true

jrbaja - 10-21-2004 at 05:30 PM

for the past, but from what I have seen, the majority of students in the colleges in Baja are female. I pay attention to these things:P:lol:

Jesse

jrbaja - 10-21-2004 at 05:38 PM

you really got me thinking when you were describing your culture, (or lack thereof).
I did a little investigating into mine.
It all started with something called the whiskey rebellion. Which would explain one hell of a lot!
Check it out :lol::lol:

lizard lips - 10-21-2004 at 09:45 PM

Those of you who disrespect your wife and marriage and have other families and children deserve to go straight to hell....You talk about being human--That is not human as far as Im concerned it is being a DOG--plain and simple. I travel all over Latin America and it is always the same situation. The Father leaves his wife with 8 kids finds another wife and does not support his prior family with a dime. It happened to my wifes father here in Ensenada and you can believe me when I say it has effected our relationship. All because of this thoughtless prick that was not happy with his present situation he decides that the pastures are greener on the other side and says to hell with it. Is that being human. I dont think so. Eight kids and leaves and does not contact them for years! Im sure some of you are going to say this is an isolated situation, bullchit. I have lived in Mexico for 19 years and see it all the time. Both my Mother and Father have been married and dicvorced 3 times but the support was always there and my Father did not leave and never come back. I saw him all the time and benifited from his support when he was'nt there. I have been married for 17 years and could never leave my Wife and 11 year old Son no matter how bad it could get. Im here for the long haul, through the worst and smile at the best....BEING HUMAN--BULLchit-- Grow some balls and be a MAN

David K - 10-21-2004 at 11:36 PM

Dan! It's good to see you posting on the board... and with so much passion, too!


Lizard Lips and his esposa at Viva Baja #3

Hey lizard

jrbaja - 10-22-2004 at 08:50 AM

Are you talking to your wifes fathers parents ?:lol:

lizard lips - 10-22-2004 at 10:08 AM

Yea David--I had a few drinks last night with dinner at Casamar and probably went too far with the post. Oh well. I just feel that when you put your trust in someone and that person does the same that trust should never be broken.

Wasn't overboard, LL

FrankO - 10-22-2004 at 10:20 AM

Right on spot.

That is true LL

jrbaja - 10-22-2004 at 10:52 AM

I was just wondering who it was you were talking about. Most people I know feel the exact same way. I consider them humans.
But, considering the divorce rate and number of divorce attorneys in america, I find it a little surprising that anyone would condemn the Mexicans for doing the same thing.

JESSE - 10-22-2004 at 01:09 PM

Theres bad people everywhere.

Not true....

FrankO - 10-22-2004 at 03:04 PM

...only gringos;).

Wrong again Franko

jrbaja - 10-22-2004 at 03:19 PM

And because I am one, I get to talk about us. Whether everyone agrees on my observations and comments regarding such is a different matter altogether.:O

Well, wrong again,

FrankO - 10-22-2004 at 04:48 PM

I sure am glad to have you point out when I'm wrong.:lol: I would never know. Could you point out the other time(s) for me? Set me on the path to enlightenmet, please.
Don't be in any hurry to count me in your "us". I never fit into any group categorizations.
Damnit, I broke my vow of silence again out of shear amusement.
Back to my closet.

If I had a case,

jrbaja - 10-22-2004 at 07:13 PM

I would rest it now.:smug:

So, do you know any Sikhs??

thebajarunner - 10-22-2004 at 08:11 PM

Most every Sikh I know here in the valley has a family back in Punjab and one here in Central California.
One successful guy that I know has one in India, one in his home town here and another up by Sacramento....
one Indian, one Asian and one Okie...
what a guy.

Baja Arriba!!

Midnight

jrbaja - 10-22-2004 at 08:39 PM

at the Oasis:bounce::lol:

Gypsy Jan - 10-22-2004 at 10:39 PM

With all due respect, or perhaps none is due...

there seems to be a very noticeable lack of feminine response.

Why is that? Intimidation, feeling that that a quiet voice will be unheard or unlistened to?

Or perhaps, it might be that someone from the otherside of the viewpoint might not want to be piled on and have to use up endless amounts of energy in replying.

????

I think

FrankO - 10-23-2004 at 07:14 AM

my feminine side comes out when I fire off a snappy response. That's the problem w/not being in the same room, you can't hear and see the subtle chain pulling that's going on.

Well Grover,

FrankO - 10-23-2004 at 07:54 AM

that must mean you are a singularly rare and discerning individual. ;)

JESSE - 10-23-2004 at 05:20 PM

Then Mormons are evil