BajaNomad

Has anyone seen this in the backroads of Baja?

MexicoTed - 7-19-2012 at 10:00 PM

A couple weeks ago a group of us were driving across the mountains from Bahia Concepcion to La Purisima when we came across these dead animals strung up on both sides of a side road. We had many ideas on why someone would hang up these carcasses but would like to here if any of you know why someone would do this.




Appears to be a hawk and the legs of a bobcat?




Bobcats & a Coyote




Bobcats?

Skipjack Joe - 7-19-2012 at 10:02 PM

Pendejos.

goldhuntress - 7-19-2012 at 10:13 PM

That is HORRIBLE!!! What the heck is wrong with people! Very sad these beautiful animals lives ended this way. And I have no idea why someone would do this.

Here's your definitive answer.

Mulegena - 7-19-2012 at 10:28 PM

To come across something like this which, to our eyes and sensibilities, is at the very least odd leads to some unsettling thoughts.

Here's the answer as to why you encountered this rather bizarre scene. I showed these pix to my husband who was born and raised up in La Purisima. His relatives are still there and we visit frequently. People up there are either goat ranchers or make the beautiful petate mats woven from the cane that grows along the river or engage in other craftwork.

These gorgeous cats were killed by goat ranchers because they were stalking and eating the animals. The hawk because it was hunting the young chicks.

They were left hanging on the roadside to inform other ranchers that this ongoing problem had been addressed. A simple yet gruesome means of communication among the ranchers who have no phones or other more direct means of speaking with one another.

Its a different world up there, on one hand beautiful and romantically idyllic and on the other hand rough and primitive. The awareness of the harshness of life that both man and animal face on a daily basis is no more apparent than in these photos you've posted.

mcfez - 7-19-2012 at 11:02 PM

Why wouldn't the ranchers sell the hides...or processed the hides? There are a variety of uses, including shoes, clothing, horse tack, horse harness, upholstery and even wall or other surface coverings.

Marc - 7-20-2012 at 06:54 AM

People do what they have to do.

paranewbi - 7-20-2012 at 07:28 AM

"Why wouldn't the ranchers sell the hides...or processed the hides? There are a variety of uses, including shoes, clothing, horse tack, horse harness, upholstery and even wall or other surface coverings."


"They were left hanging on the roadside to inform other ranchers that this ongoing problem had been addressed. A simple yet gruesome means of communication among the ranchers who have no phones or other more direct means of speaking with one another."

Obviously no cell coverage.

Curt63 - 7-20-2012 at 07:28 AM

Mulegenas answer makes perfect sense to me. I hate to see the grotesque display of these beautiful creatures, but they were threatening the livelihood of the ranchers.

Ranch life is a different world.

Mulegena - 7-20-2012 at 07:34 AM

I hate this too and mourn the loss of these beautiful creatures.

Their pelts cannot be sold or used in any way. There are laws in place strictly prohibiting this.

Unfortunately, this is the ranchers' only recourse to protect their livelihood.

DavidE - 7-20-2012 at 08:05 AM

But just let someone, anyone, try this north of the border, no matter how poor they might be!

Udo - 7-20-2012 at 08:21 AM

I hope I don't see it in Baja!

Skipjack Joe - 7-20-2012 at 08:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DavidE
But just let someone, anyone, try this north of the border, no matter how poor they might be!


Exactly!

If we saw dead timber wolves hanging from a fence in Montana there would be such an outrage. Why have a different standard in baja?

A raptor in exchange for a chicken? Seems a bit unbalanced to me. Why not keep the chicks in protected areas? Isn't the rancher responsible for something? In the US they are.

Hanging 3 bobcats to display their danger to other ranchers. Wouldn't one have been enough?

bonanza bucko - 7-20-2012 at 08:36 AM

Anybody who ever lived on a ranch or farm that was surrounded by predators of the livestock is familiar with this. Life and death is an every day fact to people such as we are. We love all animals for their beauty and cunning but we also eat them and kill them when they threaten our livelihood or families.

If you think that the beautiful timber wolves which have been repopulated in Yellowstone should be licensed to go to ranches outside of Yellowstone and eat livestock you probably belong in the city where you wonder if chocolate milk comes from brown cows....no kidding, I've heard that.

We now have a draught in the corn and beans country in the midwest and we have had the water shut off to the southern quarter of the San Joaquin Valley where a lot of tree and row crops have filled the super market shelves for years.....shut off by a federal judge to protect a one inch fish from a pump in the river. The people who get upset over a bob cat's hide on a tree in La Purisima may discover that life and death on the farm can translate into hunger and starvation of nice folks who don't know exactly where their food gets produced.

I know and expect that this post will produce outrage and all kinds of replies. Don't bother.. I won't' read them.

BB

Barry A. - 7-20-2012 at 08:37 AM

Less than 30 years ago, in the western ranching areas of the USA, this use to be common practice--------I saw hundreds of coyotes hanging on fences thruout Nevada, Utah, Wyoming and western Colorado.

Barry

Desertbull - 7-20-2012 at 08:37 AM

I have seen this many many times traveling the dirt roads and trails of Baja's backcountry. And as a note to those who haven't traveled much on the back roads, the ranchers are the law. It's a completely different world and they rule the roost with everything. Always remember that you are the guest. :biggrin:

bajaguy - 7-20-2012 at 08:44 AM

I find it interesting that we are using our NOB brain/thoughts/experiences/feelings to something that is happening SOB.....just doesn't work that way

DavidE - 7-20-2012 at 08:51 AM

I had to build stout cages in Michoacan to keep possums from slaughtering chickens and rampaging through the nests after eggs. The iguanas were great, they would end up going after fallen fruit, tender and mature. But the rats! Big rats and they went after tomatoes. The number one attractant for a rat is a red tomato along the coast. Now I know the value of a pair of Jack Russel dogs.

There is scant little to eat out on the desert. One year I remember being given permission to load the back of a flatbed with corn stalks, many of which had withered ears. I took them out to a remote area where "minute steaks" (when they turn lengthwise they were so skinny you could barely see them) were grazing. They smelled the load for many hundreds of meters and came running. They mobbed the truck as I forked over the stalks onto the ground. There were about seven or eight plus three skinny calves. I had trouble getting back into the cab.

No wonder they render beef about as tender as a Bridgestone radial.

Skipjack Joe - 7-20-2012 at 08:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Less than 30 years ago, in the western ranching areas of the USA, this use to be common practice--------I saw hundreds of coyotes hanging on fences thruout Nevada, Utah, Wyoming and western Colorado.

Barry


It's a different world now Barry. Ethics have changed.

People now lament over what the europeans did to the native americans. But isn't this similar. You move in and blast away at anything that's troublesome, man or beast. There is no attempt to coexist.

We had a rancher here in HMB lose cattle to a local cougar. Do you think anyone was demanding the death of the cougar?

If you can't deal with the problems of living next to a national park or wilderness area then relocate to an area where you feel comfortable. Those are TODAY'S ethics.

Yes, it's different in baja but I still feel that ranchers (especially that hawk) can do more on their part.

J.P. - 7-20-2012 at 09:10 AM

Never saw it in Baja but up in the Panhandle of Texas where I grew up it was common practice. Back in the day the State paid a 2dlr. Bounty you had to turn in both ears off the arimal to collect the Bounty.

Bajaboy - 7-20-2012 at 09:54 AM

People complain about the Nanny State north of the border but want more of it south of the border....:?:

Cypress - 7-20-2012 at 10:21 AM

What a waste! At present fur prices a decent bobcat hide can be worth up to $500 USA.:P How much is a goat worth?:biggrin:

astrobaja - 7-20-2012 at 10:39 AM

I grew up on a farm which my family ran for over 30 years in Ontario Canada, its great to say this is the desert way here in Baja but I just see it as a typical rancher attitude that transends any question of borders. We saw this sort of thing with a lot of the farmers back in Ontario too, shooting timber wolves, snowy owls and raptors of all kinds!
We had a large sheep operation for a good 10 years, my Dad instead of leaving them outside at night would gather them up every evening with a little sweet feed and put them in the barn where they were safe and sound.

It comes down to being willing to work WITH nature rather than adopting an ignorant adversarial position. Here in the SPM the last wild condor was shot by a well known local rancher in the 70's just because they thought condors killed cattle when of course they are carrion feeders!

The answer lies in education, teaching the ranchers that leaving the predators makes for a more sound ecosystem and to give them strategies to work towards sustainable practices! A tough sell, ranchers can be very stubbornly ignorant! I know I grew up around them!

Curt63 - 7-20-2012 at 10:52 AM

My dad was 7 when the depression hit. Where he lived, Western Pennsylvania, people helped people and no one was stealing anything. The only laws they broke were hunting seasons and limits and no one even attempted to enforce such laws.

As dad and brothers walked to school, each had a rifle and took carefully planned hunting routes to school. It was perfectly acceptable to miss school and spend the the day dressing and canning anything they shot.

Im not saying it was right or wrong. Its just what they did. I live in a different world.

Mulegena - 7-20-2012 at 11:00 AM

I appreciate astrobaja's sentiments and experiences.

Let me say that the mountain goats do come in at night of their own volition. The ranchers do have dogs as well which protect the animals. They do free-range during the day after being milked. The ranchers cannot keep these animals penned if for no reason other than the expense of food. There is also the expense of the cost of fencing material. Additionally the animals must range in order to find water.

We considered buying a few milk-producing goats, lecheras, with the intention to develop a herd. My husband's brother was to have been our partner and herd manager. After talking with numerous mountain goat ranchers we nixed the idea as being economically unfeasable, read "a sure way to lose our investment fast".

Its not to defend the destruction of wildlife, I can't and won't do that for I feel that its wrong. Its simply that this is a reality in the world of goat ranchers. They barely eke out a subsistence lifestyle and barely manage to feed, house and educate their families. They often must pick up and move their entire ranch when the water supply dries up. Life is brutally hard for these mountain ranch people. They live in a manner that is primitive by our standards, even by the standards of the people who have migrated out of the mountains to villages in search of a more secure lifestyle. They are not killing these animals for the joy of it or because its a more simple solution. They are not ignorant of the ecology or the law. They are simply trying to survive in this harsh land.

astrobaja - 7-20-2012 at 11:11 AM

I understand what you are saying Mulegena, the ecology here being so very dry is much harsher than where I grew up for sure!

But that said there are programs in place to help these ranchers with funds for fencing, solar pumping, etc. Often though the information never gets to them and they are reluctant to take advantage of them. For good reasons gov't programs are often not trusted (in any country!)

Here in the sierra theres comparitivly speaking more water, and the ranchers (some) DO take pleasure in killing the wildlife just cause they can, this I find deplorable!

Mulegena - 7-20-2012 at 11:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by astrobaja
But that said there are programs in place to help these ranchers with funds for fencing, solar pumping, etc. Often though the information never gets to them and they are reluctant to take advantage of them. For good reasons gov't programs are often not trusted (in any country!)

Again, I'm not speaking for anybody up in La Purisima, but what I've heard also concurs with your statement. I've heard that this funding never reaches the folks who need it. Sadly, its misappropriated and given to the dispersers' relatives. Heinous, indeed, all around.

Cypress - 7-20-2012 at 11:48 AM

Tried to have goats on my property. Due to wolf and cougar predation it's not possible. Can live with it. But!!! Goats aren't my source of income. If they were, wolves and cougars would be eliminated by gun, traps, and any other means available. Coyotes? No problemo! The wolves exterminate 'em.:lol:

vgabndo - 7-20-2012 at 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Less than 30 years ago, in the western ranching areas of the USA, this use to be common practice--------I saw hundreds of coyotes hanging on fences thruout Nevada, Utah, Wyoming and western Colorado.

Barry


It's a different world now Barry. Ethics have changed.

People now lament over what the europeans did to the native americans. But isn't this similar. You move in and blast away at anything that's troublesome, man or beast. There is no attempt to coexist.

We had a rancher here in HMB lose cattle to a local cougar. Do you think anyone was demanding the death of the cougar?

If you can't deal with the problems of living next to a national park or wilderness area then relocate to an area where you feel comfortable. Those are TODAY'S ethics.

Yes, it's different in baja but I still feel that ranchers (especially that hawk) can do more on their part.


In Siskiyou County CA the practice of bragging about killing indigenous dogs is alive and well. Half a mile NE of the Little Shasta Cemetery is a roadside tree at the intersection. There must be a hundred coyote tails nailed to it.

Those ranchers who have moved on from their lizard brains keep a few Llamas with the herds and flocks.

In San Nicolas' they would string the little foxes on the fence.

Here in Mt. Shasta our little Red Fox who comes through the yard every day is only slightly larger than our cats. She has just about finished-off the last of the Gray Squirrels who live in the Black Oaks in the neighborhood. I suspect she'll move on then. We'll see how the rodent population bounces back after that. She's the first in 15 years so it might take a while for the Grays to come back.

same road 2005

woody with a view - 7-20-2012 at 02:12 PM





:barf:

MexicoTed - 7-20-2012 at 02:47 PM

Thanks for all the info, we did understand it was cultural. We also thought the same thing, but one of the group suggested by having so many animals strung up, the rancher was also "showing" other predators what would happen to them. By the way, there was 1 raptor, 1 coyote and 6 bobcats total. You'll see in the images that only the legs were left on the wires as it was apparent that other animals had torn down the body and eaten it.

LancairDriver - 7-20-2012 at 03:16 PM

Its hard to understand how some who live closest to nature seem to have the least respect for it. I have a few neighbors in rural Oregon who shoot every single Racoon, Beaver, Coyote, Fox or any living thing they happen to see. Simply because they can, no valid economic or safety reason.
Some brain dead ranchers in Ventura Co. CA are credited with wiping out almost the entire California Condor population in the 1950's by lacing dead cattle with strychnine in an attempt to poison Coyotes. Never occurred to them who or what else might be affected.

Mexitron - 7-21-2012 at 08:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LancairDriver
Its hard to understand how some who live closest to nature seem to have the least respect for it. I have a few neighbors in rural Oregon who shoot every single Racoon, Beaver, Coyote, Fox or any living thing they happen to see. Simply because they can, no valid economic or safety reason.
Some brain dead ranchers in Ventura Co. CA are credited with wiping out almost the entire California Condor population in the 1950's by lacing dead cattle with strychnine in an attempt to poison Coyotes. Never occurred to them who or what else might be affected.



I imagine the sheep ranchers up in the valley take out quite a few animals as well. never seen a coyote or cat in Bandon...

LancairDriver - 7-21-2012 at 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mexitron
Quote:
Originally posted by LancairDriver
Its hard to understand how some who live closest to nature seem to have the least respect for it. I have a few neighbors in rural Oregon who shoot every single Racoon, Beaver, Coyote, Fox or any living thing they happen to see. Simply because they can, no valid economic or safety reason.
Some brain dead ranchers in Ventura Co. CA are credited with wiping out almost the entire California Condor population in the 1950's by lacing dead cattle with strychnine in an attempt to poison Coyotes. Never occurred to them who or what else might be affected.


I imagine the sheep ranchers up in the valley take out quite a few animals as well. never seen a coyote or cat in Bandon...


Nope. Rare sight. The ranchers and paid government "trappers" pretty well eliminate the Coyotes and Cats using poison and snares around Bandon. The cranberry growers eliminate the deer, who love to graze in the wide open unfenced cranberry fields, and the timber company's pay the trappers to eliminate the bears, who eat bark from their trees before the berries start to come in late summer. The government trappers officially are told to keep their toll secret to avoid upsetting the public.

DavidT - 7-21-2012 at 12:35 PM

Yea, just let the government do it.

http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/government/article_8a9553fe-c...

bajacalifornian - 7-21-2012 at 03:50 PM

Mulegena gives the answer as explained to me . . . also in the same region. Some believe it sends a special message to others, of the same species.

Cypress - 7-21-2012 at 03:59 PM

$500. US dollars , wasted, hanging from a tree. But a $2.00 goat is saved!:lol:

BajaBruno - 7-21-2012 at 09:44 PM

Cypress, a prime, winter coat, North Idaho bobcat may be worth $500, though I'm leery of even that, but a scrawny summer desert bobcat? I doubt it's worth the salt to dry that pelt.

I'm amazed that there are that many bobcats who can scratch out a living in that country.

As for seeing them, well, even in the hills where I was raised, where they were thick and fat, one never saw them except with a spotlight carefully placed at night. They are very shy and nocturnal and just don't show themselves when you can easily see them.

burnrope - 7-23-2012 at 12:28 AM

St. Ambrose, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Sly & the Family Stone, "Different strokes for different folks."